Talk:Trade/Archive 1

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Archive 1

POV Fix

I question the POV neutrality of the remark re: "Free enterprise" being a "strange modern idea...deification" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.198.116.33 (talk) 21:44, 16 June 2004 (UTC)

You are right in questioning it. It is not even remotely neutral. I will now revise it. --DylanL 23:58, 14 Aug 2004 (UTC)
My God. After another look, I can't begin to figure out where to revise this. It's hopelessly biased. --DylanL 00:22, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I gave it a shot at making the section in question NPOV 68.198.66.115 16:14, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)
And making that change inspired me to get a Wikipedia account. Damien_F 16:25, Aug 28, 2004 (UTC)

Sports trades?

Is there a page on sports trades? In the North American sports leagues (NFL, NBA, NHL and MLB) players may be traded for each other, or sometimes for draft picks.) It would be nice to have a page devoted to this (if there isn't one already). Funnyhat 02:04, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Sports Simulation Games

In addition to players being traded in real life, there are also games where people trade playing cards that have pictures of the players and their statistics.

I think Sports Trades is more a topic of Sports than of Trading. AlMac 3 July 2005 19:07 (UTC)

removing importantstub

I'm removing the importantstub template because this article has grown beyond a stub. If anyone knows what the article is missing it seems the expand template would be a better choice. See Wikipedia:Substub#Differences_between_a_stub_and_a_substub. Triddle 17:44, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

Trade legislation

Are there any wiki articles on trades descriptions and trade legislation? (e.g. things like laws against using false descriptions, misleading names, etc., to mislead buyers). I can't find anything at any obvious titles - MPF 18:10, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Laws like that often come under headings like consumer protection because that is most often where commercial speech gets abused enought to demant legislation to enforce standards. There's other kinds of abuse that is combatted by legislated bodies to manage labor relations or international like WTO, such as to block dumping, not quite what you getting at? User:AlMac|(talk) 19:55, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Purchasing

There's a redirect to trade from purchasing which does not make sense, as the word "purchasing" is not mentioned in the whole article. Apart from that, there are other meanings, e.g. the purchasing department of an enterprise is not covered by the lemma trade. Does someone agree and split both? FelixKaiser

Perhaps there should be an article on Purchasing within the context of Accounting with links to Enterprise resource planning. User:AlMac|(talk) 19:57, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Section cleanup request: Development of money

This section is not the best summary in the world of the Money article. -- Beland 00:26, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

You're right, it's a clumsy paragraph. It should not be a summary of money however, but History of money, because it is in the history section.--Fenice 06:51, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

I would have to agree, this paragraph is fairly “clumsily” written, it also contains a very limited description of how money was developed. The spelling and gramma should also be looked into. “being scarce as an artifact” (line 13 of Development of money).. This should be written as “being as scarce as an artifact. ” or something along those lines.Nameon 23:48, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Dupery

This is an anachronism. Double-think had not been invented yet.

Smith said that he considered all rationalisations of import and export controls "dupery", which hurt the trading nation at the expense of specific industries.

I shall only say at present that every extraordinary, either encouragement or discouragement that is given to the trade of any country more than to that of another may, I think, be demonstrated to be in every case a complete piece of dupery, by which the interest of the state and the nation is constantly sacrificed to that of some particular class of traders.

MaxEnt 19:34, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

What are the concepts and functions of international trade?

i'm student from h.k. and my school teacher has ask me to do an assignment about international trade? so i want to know more about international trade. i want to find out why international trade is important for every contries? how it works like? and of course the funtions of international trade too. please help and thanks a lot. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.102.142.131 (talk) 08:12, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Merging commerce and trade articles

I think merging the commerce and trade articles is a good idea. Both articles recognise that the terms are more or less equivalent. The question I have is whether it makes sense to merge into trade or merge into commerce. Commerce has no meaning other than its business meaning, as far as I know. But trade tends to have other uses, such as in "learning a trade" or "being traded" (professional sports context) or informal swapping. Just my thoughts. --SueHay 20:23, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Oppose need to remain separate as the topics are both important, notable and too large to merge, it would be to the detriment of wiki to merge them. SMBarnZy 12:52, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Oppose -- Last I looked, Commerce includes ALL BUSINESS ACTIVITY, including services, manufacturing, raw goods, etc. whereas trade is movement of such goods. Thus, there is no reason to combine and many reasons to not do so. // FrankB 05:31, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
Oppose -- Trade in the historical context is far too vast to commingle with this passing fad known as commerce. Seriously, trade not only predates history, it was an original cause. MaxEnt 19:34, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Oppose -- This desire to merge articles that even remotely resemble another article of similar description is becoming detrimental to the project. Recently, I was unable to locate information regarding a specific criminal organisation as the article had been merged into another article covering criminal organisations in general and thus, has made Wikipedia useless as a resource on the specific group. Let's stop this increasing desire to merge everything for convenience. 124.180.117.90 22:56, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Support Have any of you actually read these articles as written?
"Commerce is a branch of production which deals with the exchange of goods and services from producer to final consumer..."
"Trade is the voluntary exchange of goods, services, or both. Trade is also called commerce..."
So whatever you may think these articles are about, they clearly aren't. Ewlyahoocom 06:15, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
Or maybe they are and we simply don't share your opinion. Just because two articles share similar subject matter doesn't automatically qualify them for a merge. Gamer Junkie 07:03, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
Support Via dictionary.com, commerce only really describes the interchange aspects, not all of production, etc.[1] Also, I think the question isn't just if they're always identical, but if the information is more easily presented in one article. That seems to be the case to me. Plinkit 01:43, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Trade vs. Non-trade

Article mentions barter as an alternative to trade, though barter economies have almost never existed for prolonged periods (dual incidence of wants problem). In reality, reciprocal agreements (such as feudal obligations, or Soviet "blat" system), or communal property (isolated villages, hunter-gatherer society, etc) are far more common in the absence of monetary trade.

Since most of the world has had some form of money or unit of account for over two thousand years, this usually only matters in social or market breakdown (hyperinflation, communist black markets, civil war, etc). But since these are the alternatives to trade, I believe they should be mentioned.

Not sure how to track down the good references on this - perhaps start with Cameron and Neal, or North and Thomas? Bagsc (talk) 10:35, 20 April 2008 (UTC)Bagsc

Principles of Trade

There is a basic principle of trade, and it is that in any trade between two people, both walk away feeling they have obtained a higher value than what they traded away. I don't know if this is appropriate to include in the article, or where to put it. Suggestions? anyways, for those not getting what I mean, here is an example. Take two guys, one makes arrowheads, the other makes pots. They agree to trade an arrowhead for a pot. Here is what happens next:

  • The arrowhead maker feels he got better value, because he could not use arrowheads to cook a meal; so he came out ahead.
  • The pot maker feels he got better value, because without an arrohead, he could not hunt for something to cook in his pots.

If neither of them had felt that they where getting more for less, they would not have traded. There is no great incentive to trade even value, much less trading less for more. For example, maybe the pot maker didn't think one arrowhead was fair, he wanted two. Maybe the arrowhead maker wouldn't want a pot that bad that he would trade two for one. -- Dullfig 22:26, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

I think there is a level of accuracy in what you're saying, but it needs some revision. People will sometimes pay more than they feel something is worth. This does not mean they felt that they got a good deal, but that they felt it was an acceptable price for what they got based on the circumstance.

Additionally, there is an error in the assumption that no one would trade unless they felt they were getting a better deal. For instance, assuming that a pot and an arrowhead had an equal accepted value, the transaction would still be made: the arrowheadmaker neets a pot and the pot maker needs an arrowhead. A more interesting example can be found in almost any purchase of manufactured goods: I know that the shoes I payed $30 for are worth (in material and labour costs) less than $30, because otherwise there would be no profit in their sales, but I recognize that the price is not too high to pay, and I buy them. Robert Mason 15:52, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Shoes are not such a good example, because they are so universally needed, they mask the cost-benefit aspect. But suppose you are a carpenter an need a hammer. Because you are good with wood, but not so good working with iron, making a hammer would probably take you a good week of work (assuming you could learn the necesary skills). If you go and buy a hammer, and find that it costs $15, to you it is a good deal, because it costs less than it would take you to maket it. In addition, the hammer allows you to work in your trade, so over time you will gain even more value from the hammer than what it cost you. -- Dullfig 18:09, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

This point could easily be made using the concepts of Pareto Improvement and Core (game theory). Anyone want to take a stab at writing it in lay terms? Bagsc (talk) 10:39, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

AlMac Moved Ideas

Some of my ideas what might belong in the Trade article have in fact shown up there, probably due to people having parallel thoughts on what belongs in this picture. I hope that my ideas help bridge the thinking of others to collectively improve the article.

This stuff was at User talk:AlMac/Trade which i did not delete right away because I had pointed various other places at it, without keeping track of which where.

Trade Domestic

  • Trade within the borders of a nation.
  • How might this be different in different nations?
EU
Trade inside USA

There are organizations that are to US domestic trade, what the WTO is to International Trade. I would not be surprised if many nations had similar enttities.

Do Labor Unions count?

These organizations that exist to promote Trade inside the nation, are often also involved in lobbying the government to make sure that laws are favorable to their interests. Some of them also engage in internal education within their industries to improve standards and quality.

Legal Sea Changes

What are some of the major US laws and US Supreme Court decisions that have altered the face of how Trade functions, and can function in the USA?

Trade International

Watch out for demographic bias of most Wikipeans being from developing world as it applies to access to theories about economics.

Consider the impact of the English Channel Tunnel Chunnel on Trade between Britain, France, and the rest of the continent. In fact, High Speed Rail is much better developed in Europe and other nations than in the USA. How does different systems of transportation compare around the world? Barge, Ship, Rail, Truck, etc.

In very recent history, there has been a sharp rise in the number of democratic nations around the world, particularly in the aftermath of Communism rulling Central Europe. The story of the re-unification of Germany, and former Warsaw Pact nations joining Common Europe, EU and NATO has been a sea change in European economics and beyond.

Currencies
  • Different nations Currencies relative to each other (some pegged to each other) and International Currencies such as the Euro, which is a relatively new phenomena in history, which required an upheaval in European Accounting that was as great as the Y2K situation.
  • Degree to which one nation's assets are traded by other nations and foreign nationals.
Military Bases

When a community is home to a military base, there is considerable trade to support the servicemen and women based there. The USA is moving some bases that used to be in France and Germany forther east into Poland and Czech Republic.

That will benefit their economies, although not as significantly as the Marshall Plan.

Oil Prices

This is a topic of current interest, as the price goes up.

I have conversations with various friends.

  • THEY SAY: "I just bought some gas, and the price was over $ 2.00 a gallon !!!!!"
  • AL: "You better get used to it, and factor this into what kind of next car to buy. I predict that in 3 years it will be $ 5.00 a gallon."
  • THEY: "What makes you say that?"
  • AL: "Supply and Demand, thanks to China's exploding economy. China is what, 2/3 of the world's population, moving from agrarian to industrial society, doing the same kinds of things that the USA has been doing for the past 50 years, and their economy is growing faster than USA has ever experienced. There is also a controversial topic about whether or not the world is running out of oil, and it becomes progressively more expensive to dig out the last remnants."
Wow. 2/3rds of the world's population would be, what, 4.4 billion people, or roughly four times the actual number. Of course, their per capita consumption of gasoline is miniscule, so perhaps there needs to be another answer. DOR (HK) (talk) 08:13, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Trade in History

How Trade was conducted thru history, and How Theory of Trade evolved.

  • How things were done before Adam Smith and others came along.
  • Various people dreamed up better ways to run an economy.
  • How were things done prior to that?
  • Also, there were theorists that did not become the dominant fathers of the system theory.
  • Sometimes it seems with the news media that the latest crisis is the worst ever by definition.
    • Most Economic Historians treat the Great Depression following the Stock Market crash of 1929 as the all time worst event.
      • October 19, 1987 or Black Monday, was treated at the time, of similar stock market magnitude.
      • In former VP Albert Gore book on the Environment, he talks about the Year of no Summer, in association with several events. Seems to me that there was Climate Change that reduced the ability of agriculture to sustain the population that had been living off of it, combined with great plagues, caused a Pandemic the likes of which the world has never seen again.


Esoteric Topics

By definition, anything that I have a real hard time wrapping my mind around.

  • Like how does a country get into Deflation and how come some nations south of the US Border have in recent years had various economic crises.
Ancient Trade

How about Trade in the times of the Romans, Greeks, Biblical times?

Trade in Medieval Times
  • Some differences vs. modern era would be related to transportation infrastructure, and such things as not having good refrigeration for foods.
  • There was a time when the notion of storing seed against a bad season had not yet been invented.
  • Each historical period probably contributed much to subsequent eras, but the quality of our history is such that we may not know the whole story.
    • Medieval Commerce contributed:
  • Given all the troubles with criminals of the times, disrupting trade caravans between east and west, how valuable did products have to be to justify the effort?
    • What was the appeal of those spices from the Orient, and what went in the other direction to be traded for the spices?
  • When European ships first arrived in the Americas, and off the coast of Africa, was that really Trade as we know it today, or Multi-National Corporations in Laissez Faire Economics?
Ages of Sea Exploration

Western nations discovered America, went around the world, introduced many new products to Europe. Doubtless some of the other nations benefitted in more ways than being visited upon by unwanted missionaries and the drug trade, leading to teh Opium Wars.

Rise of Middle Class

Probably made possible

  • French Revolution
  • American Revolution
Second Industrial Revolution

Western nations got the immediate benefits.

1837 Morse invented the Telegraph

What a difference it made to USA economy to have transatlantic Railroad. Then the nation saw another economic revolution later with the Interstate highway system, then again with the Internet.

Impact of Suez Canal and Panama Canal.

The value of some technology, such as the Fax machine, is related to how many connections to other enterprises with the same technology.

What a difference it made to quality of life to have in many homes:

  • Indoor Plumbuing
  • Telephone

Good quality lighting meant people could work, and read after dark.

WW II
Radar

External links to info about the book "The Invention that Changed the World" by Robert Buderi:

This book is about how a small group of pinoneers made invention(s) that helped the Allies win WW II, and led to a technological revolution after WW II, that ranks with the Industrial Revolution, when you consider its impact on:

Post War

After WW II, many former collonies of the great powers, gained independence. Some of those nations nationalized industries that had formerly been controlled by enterprises out of the colonizing powers.

During the war years, the women had worked in defense industry, freeing the jobs for the men to go to war. Combined with Suffrage, this meant that Western Society moved from the man traditionally being wage earner, and woman traditionally being home maker and architect of chldren upbringing, to a changed society.

The Personal Automobile in the hands of many youngsters meant a much more mobile society. Gone were the times when kids got in trouble, and the neighbors knew which family they from, with swift informing the parents.

While many European nations struggled with Rationing, the GI Bill in USA helped Veterans get a decent college education, leading to a sharp rise in the Middle Class.

Socialism

Karl Marx first proposed the theory, and the Communist nations first tried it out.

Space Race

Communication Satellites

Computer Revolutions

Modern Trade Theory

When does the "modern era" begin?

Trade in Intellectual Property
Internet Trade
Removal of Trade Barriers

Trade Illegal

Some types of activities may be legal in some nations and illegal in others.

If you add up the Trade Balance of all nations, in theory they should zero out, but in reality they do not add up. This is because of the role of Money Laundering, Drug Smuggling, and other illegal activities, off the books.

Trade in Fiction

How about novels, authors, games, where the economics depicted is fairly reliable, as of some era of Trade theory evolution?

There's also used book stores where we bring in two old books, and in exchange get one old book that perhaps we have not read before. I have also seen PC game stores that do that.

Trade Publications

In different nations, different publications might be considered the primary publications for someone to be reading to stay informed on Trade issues. There can also be good relevant articles in general news publications whose other content is not exclusively or heavily focused on economic topics.

Asian Trade Editions

Many publications have editions in various regions of the world.

British Trade Publications
USA Trade Publications
Trade Journalists

Many journalists specialize in various different topics

  • Business & Economics
  • Politics of the nation's capital
  • Technology
  • various sciences

There are some worth watching, perhaps making an effort to invite to join us here.

Big Picture

  • For many topics, textual charts can be an inadequate way of depicting the subject matter ... they may be Ok when a few dimensions to the data. But complex graphics can impose a bandwidth Usability hassle depending on the Browser being used by someone coming to Wikopedia and any Disability hassles experienced by the human involved.
    • Consider a map of the world, in which you can click on any of the nations, or select from a list to the side, some region of the world. This would be a separate Wiki article page.
    • After clicking on a nation or region, you could then get to Trade info about that region.
      • What kinds of products and services do they export?
      • Which other nations are their major trading partners?
      • What trading organizations are they members of?
  • See if you can navigate to this Ryze network page and see the illustration, then navigate it (click some place and drill down to the details). This is an example of something called a Social Network Map in which there is software available to draw a map based on a table keyed in by a person with such entries as:
    • NAME or Title (which will be the text in the link);
    • url corresponding to that;
    • some symbol in front of each NAME that is to be linked to this one.
See also
  • This is in 2 places ... main one at bottom, and also with respect to a particular topic.
  • After editing the one on the bottom, we jump to the higher one ... a bug? This means risk of editing the wrong one.
  • I suggest the title of one be altered slightly so it is "See also" related to a particular topic, such as International Trade, History of Trade, or whatever, within the context of that section.

AlMac 5 July 2005 18:43 (UTC)

Trade Links

Looking down the [2] list of what links to here (Trade) I notice some things conspicuous by their absense.

  • I see Monopoly (game)
    • but there are MANY games that involve some kind of Trade or wider Economics.
    • Monopoly was perhaps the first adult and family board game of economics, that gained great popularity, but it was followed by many others.
    • There are various computer games where various vehicles are setup moving in a loop of picking up goods at various ports and dropping off somewhere else.
    • There are the Microprose Tycoon series.

A brief history reference between barter and paper money

Later one side of the barter were the metals, precisious metals (poles, coins), bill, paper money. --Dezső László (talk) 17:03, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

China

The paragraphs on China need work. First, the comment that the pre-1978 economic model met "with limited results" is unsubstantiated. From half a century of civil war to becoming the first administration in Chinese history to actually feed the people is a pretty good result. Sure, there was no straight line progress, and a lot of policy mistakes (Great Leap Forward, Cultural Revolution). Nevertheless, agriculture was reorganized in such a way as to produce consistent surpluses, once the experimentation was concluded. And, as a matter of neutrality, the comment on the (nonexistent, at least in terms of trade) backlash from the shootings following Tiananmen Square protests of 1989 should be deleted. DOR (HK) (talk) 08:12, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

No comment, so six months later changes have been made. DOR (HK) (talk) 03:53, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

trade

its objectives —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.202.206.133 (talk) 12:17, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

trading concludes trading people sometimes!!!!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.175.137.224 (talk) 02:26, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Trade

Trade is “The voluntary exchange of goods, service or both”. Trade is used more now than ever before on a worldwide basis. This is because in the last sixty to one hundred years transport has been developing into what it is now. This has made transporting goods to other countries a lot easier. Without planes, boats and motor vehicles transporting goods very long distances wasn’t possible, and if it was it couldn’t have been easy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.176.128.1 (talk) 18:27, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Current trends is not History

I don't think Current trends belongs in the History section. Jojalozzo 20:08, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

About Religion

The Religion sub-section is badly lacking (October 2010): it only mentions that Muslim teachings encourage trading, according to the Qur'an. It ought to be expanded, including whatever the other main religions have to say. Quite possibly, the amount of material could grow to deserve an article of its own! Regards, --SciCorrector (talk) 23:01, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

History section POV problem: Euro-centric

The history of trade within Asia and Africa (and pre-Columbian America) is mostly lacking. Only the history of trade in these regions with Europe is discussed. Is there anyone here who can correct this POV? If not, how do we find someone? Jojalozzo 20:06, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

That doesn't sound like a non-NPOV problem—it just means the information in the article is incomplete. TaintedMustard (talk) 18:23, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

The lack of neutrality is probably a case of unintentional systemic bias. I replaced the banner with {{systemic bias}}. However, this dispute deserves some resolution, probably by someone researching and writing relevant paragraphs. --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 12:14, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Look out for possible copyright violations in this article

This article has been found to be edited by students of the Wikipedia:India Education Program project as part of their (still ongoing) course-work. Unfortunately, many of the edits in this program so far have been identified as plain copy-jobs from books and online resources and therefore had to be reverted. See the India Education Program talk page for details. In order to maintain the WP standards and policies, let's all have a careful eye on this and other related articles to ensure that no material violating copyrights remains in here. --Matthiaspaul (talk) 12:19, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

Great Depression and free-trade

The section on the Twentieth Century states, without citation, "The lack of free trade was considered by many as a principal cause of the depression." While I personally somewhat agree with the statement, I believe it is quite inappropriate for such a statement to go un-cited. The statement is bold enough to qualify as the thesis for a book. Irregardless, I hope that my addition of a Citation Needed tag will spur some individual more intrepid than myself to seek an appropriate source.

--99.48.2.251 (talk) 04:38, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

difference between trade and commerce answer for 15 marks — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.192.109.98 (talk) 09:48, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

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Merge from commerce

The article on commerce is rather poor, and honestly, what's the difference? Those two terms seem like synonyms and are described as such by most dictionaries ([3], [4] etc.). Britannica doesn't have an entry on either. Encylopedia Judaice has an entry entitled "Trade and Commerce" [5]]. Couldn't really find much in other encyclopedias I checked. For those who want to argue those are separate, tt would be good to cite reliable sources that differentiate between those terms. I found some webpages which purport to differentiate them but they seem not fully reliable (ex. [6]). Thoughts? PS. There is also the option of renaming the merged page trade and commerce. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 09:37, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

Broken infobox?

This article begins with long strings of wiki markup and bullet lists of wikilinked articles. It looks like an infobox for the general topic of economics was murdered and dismembered. Does anyone know how to fix it? I definitely don't. --JDspeeder1 (talk) 09:23, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

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