Talk:Tornado outbreak of December 10–11, 2021/Archive 1

Archive 1

Defiance, Missouri confirmed

Tornado confirmed in defiance mo and augusta 76.236.241.215 (talk) 05:04, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

Updating Weather of 2021 Timeline

This outbreak will probably have a few entries placed on the Weather of 2021 timeline, so as information comes out, feel free to update the timeline as long as parts pass the weather by year timeline criteria. Elijahandskip (talk) 06:37, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

Mayfield Consumer Products

The candle factory that was destroyed in Mayfield was known as Mayfield Consumer Products. With reliable references, this should be included in the article - and may be notable enough for its own article. Juneau Mike (talk) 13:48, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

Indiana section

Is it possible to add a section regarding damages in Indiana? Some sources included are: Severestorm28 (talk) 16:56, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

I have added a RefIdeas template to the top of the talk page in case you or anyone else finds more sources that can be used. --Super Goku V (talk) 18:03, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

Possible vandalism

There were 32 tornadoes, only 5 are on the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:248:681:25A0:0:0:0:490E (talk) 18:35, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

That's not vandalism. There are 32 preliminary reports, which is not the same as confirmed tornadoes. Since there were long-track tornadoes, some of them most certainly have multiple reports. We have to wait on detailed damage surveys to determine exactly how many tornadoes there were. TornadoLGS (talk) 19:08, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

Sources

Can we find a source for the Bowling Green “EF3+” tornado? I haven’t seen any tornado related PNS reports or other confirmations from the NWS Mathguy Michael (talk) 16:37, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

I’m just going to let you people have your way with adding unreferenced information to keep my stress low. Mathguy Michael (talk) 16:54, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

Maybe there is a misunderstanding or poor sourcing in the article, but it seems that it a EF3 tornado to my understanding. --Super Goku V (talk) 19:15, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 11 December 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Withdrawn United States Man (talk) 22:56, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

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Tornado outbreak of December 10–11, 2021 → Quad-State tornado outbreak – This outbreak will not be commonly known in the future as the "Tornado Outbreak of December 10-11, 2021", but rather by the remarkable Quad-State tornado. The Tri-State tornado outbreak is not known as the "Tornado outbreak of March 18, 1925, but rather by the extremely notable Tri-State tornado. We might as well have this discussion now as it is bound to come up in the future if we don't. Clear case where a rename is inline with WP:COMMONNAME playing a part. Elijahandskip (talk) 21:41, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

• Comment: Obviously, if the move/rename did occur, this page would be left as a perm redirect to it. Elijahandskip (talk) 21:45, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose: Despite the internet hype, NWS damage surveys will almost assuredly find that the tornado lifted one time before crossing into Kentucky. WP:COMMONNAME suggests naming articles that are more recognized, but it also warns against naming articles inaccurately, of which that title will likely be. TropicalAnalystwx13 (talk · contributions) 21:49, 11 December 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose: Too early to determine a COMMONNAME, as it was literally hours ago. Wait. ◢  Ganbaruby!  (talk) 21:54, 11 December 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose: It's too early to determine the common name. There is still a very strong possibility that it was a tornado family, and not a Single tornado that caused damage in four states. Way may consider revisiting this question later, only if damage surveys confirm a 4-state track. TornadoLGS (talk) 21:59, 11 December 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose pending NWS evaluation. We don't even know as of now if it was a quad-state tornado. Destroyeraa (Alternate account) 22:14, 11 December 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose – Against our naming conventions for tornado outbreaks. Survey will likely find a path break in Obion County, TN anyway. United States Man (talk) 22:22, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

• Withdrawn by nominator. Elijahandskip (talk) 22:41, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Semi-protected edit request on 11 December 2021 (2)

can you symbolize that the Illinois EF3 killed 2 people by adding the “2 deaths” at the front of it 67.82.182.94 (talk) 23:17, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

 Not done – Per recent reports, there were six fatalities in the Amazon warehouse. United States Man (talk) 23:36, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

Not Unusual! Rare!

It is not unusual but rare. Be honest! It doesn't require much research and attention to know that storms like this occasionally happen before, during, and especially end months of Spring 75.106.228.203 (talk) 08:44, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

Is there a specific line that you are requesting to be altered or changed? --Super Goku V (talk) 23:35, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

Possible world record length but it's December is definitely unusual. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 01:37, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

Midwestern snow impact

Before the tornado outbreak, I began a draft article, Draft:Mid-December 2021 North American winter storm, which is the snow storm that technically began prior to the tornado outbreak. Should we still include the snow information on the tornado outbreak page, or move it over to the draft and publish the draft? Elijahandskip (talk) 23:37, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

What is significant about the snow? Does that even need an article? United States Man (talk) 23:39, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

Unknown, hence why it is in the draft state. the weather channel named it on Dec 9, which is when the impacts started across ten states. The question is sort of complicated, because having the snow (aka the winter storm) in the article implies that the article really should be “Dec 9–11” but the titling of that would be weird since no tornadoes occurred on Dec 9. Elijahandskip (talk) 00:03, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

The snow can be mentioned but it's not gonna hijack the article. The weather channel names are irrelevant for notability. They'd name a snow flurry for ratings. United States Man (talk) 00:06, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

But then the title of the article is 100% wrong, which is a problem. Elijahandskip (talk) 00:11, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

May I ask why in the world we have a separate article for impacts that can fit in this one? "Technically correct titles" make for confusing the reader and getting away from the articles initial intention. What is going to remembered is that tornadoes killed around 100 people, not that snow caused snow emergencies in Minneapolis and St. Paul, which happens CONSTANTLY in the winter there. We don't need another article. Heck, if anything, those impacts should go into the winter impacts article and not here, but that may be a little much. Not every tornado outbreak article needs a long, drawn-out section of snow impacts that won't even be remembered a week from now. Just saying.ChessEric (talk · contribs) 01:31, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

I will say this though. The Weather Channel has a certain criteria for naming winter storms and this is the VERY FIRST ONE THEY NAMED. They don't name snow flurries, so don't say it like you watch it and automatically know. Please look up their criteria before just spewing nonsense. I get tired of hearing this.ChessEric (talk · contribs) 01:33, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

I don't think the winter storm having a different date span from the tornado outbreak is an issue, since that is of secondary importance. If you want to go by analogy, articles on tropical cyclones still discuss a system's precursor and remnants, even though they are before the official formation and after dissipation respectively. TornadoLGS (talk) 01:52, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

Track distance 240 km or mi

In the lead paragraph, the tracking distance was 240 mi ("... the tornado family—identified by some media outlets ... may have cut a path of up to 250 miles (400 km) across the affected areas ..." whereas in the table, 240 km. Do these refer to separate entities; the supercell or just that single tornado funnel? Information seems to contradict the article itself and some references (possibly due to lack of clarity or my limited understanding on these storms). --Dora the Axe-plorer (explore the morgue) 02:16, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

The tornado family tracked 250 miles; one of the tornadoes FROM the tornado family tracked 240 km. It is confusing I will admit.ChessEric (talk · contribs) 02:22, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

@Dora the Axe-plorer: The lead refers to a tornado family i.e. multiple tornadoes spawned in succession by one storm cell. The table entry refers to a single tornado. Exactly where tornadoes formed and dissipated within this family has yet to be determined. It doesn't help that news media usually fail to make this kind of distinction. TornadoLGS (talk) 02:23, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for clearing the confusion.--Dora the Axe-plorer (explore the morgue) 02:24, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

Current death toll for Mayfield, KY tornado

What is the current (not estimated) death toll for the Mayfield, Kentucky tornado? I'm adding into the map on the main page and need an actual number.02:00, 12 December 2021 (UTC)ChessEric (talk · contribs)

Your guess is as good as mine. If we're going by the 35 we have on this page, it is currently 11 (Muhlenberg County). United States Man (talk) 02:04, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

Okay. Thanks.ChessEric (talk · contribs) 02:06, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

Wait; are all 35 by tornadoes?ChessEric (talk · contribs) 02:11, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

Also, I'm confused. Did the tornado that killed two in Arkansas kill three or four in Tennessee?ChessEric (talk · contribs) 02:13, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

That I do not know. I assumed people were putting only tornadic fatalities in the table and infobox. United States Man (talk) 02:15, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

I think there's only been three in Tennessee. United States Man (talk) 02:15, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I'm also getting some conflicting info on whether the Bowling Green tornado killed 11 or 12. TornadoLGS (talk) 02:18, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

@United States Man: I see of the problems. I don't think there has been a death in Shelby County...at least not a confirmed one based on the sources.ChessEric (talk · contribs) 02:20, 12 December 2021 (UTC) EDIT: Ummmmmmmmmmmm...never mind. I guess you found it. LOL!ChessEric (talk · contribs) 02:23, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict) See here. United States Man (talk) 02:24, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

Soooooooooo...does that make it 6 fatalities from that tornado?ChessEric (talk · contribs) 02:26, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

A quick look at a map shows that Shelby County is Memphis and was not in the path of that tornado (but I already knew that without the map lol). United States Man (talk) 02:28, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

Okay, sorry. LOL! XDChessEric (talk · contribs) 02:28, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

@TornadoLGS and United States Man: Can we put the death toll for the Mayfield, KY tornado as 11+ while putting that it is estimated to be 70 in the tornado description? That would make it less confusing.ChessEric (talk · contribs) 02:32, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

Perhaps "11+ confirmed (70 est)". TornadoLGS (talk) 02:38, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

If you want something else confusing, Bowling Green has 7 deaths per NWS. United States Man (talk) 02:40, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

Just like the chaotic good old days. TornadoLGS (talk) 02:45, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

Ugh, my brain is fried. If I made a mistake on the tornado death map on the main page, blame it on mother nature, not me.ChessEric (talk · contribs) 02:50, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

Proposed merge of Mid-December 2021 North American winter storm into Tornado outbreak of December 10–11, 2021

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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The winter weather aspects of this storm are of questionable notability. Having them in a separate article from the tornado outbreak produced by the same system creates an unnecessary content fork. TornadoLGS (talk) 01:48, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

• Support – Yes, that article should never have been created. United States Man (talk) 01:50, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

It was created before this one... Elijahandskip (talk) 01:52, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

Page history says it was created at 00:27, 12 December 2021‎. A draft doesn't count. United States Man (talk) 02:02, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

In my mind, a draft that has been listed to other places (besides a user/talk page) does count. Either way, I am ok merging. But please stop the aggression. Elijahandskip (talk) 02:05, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

• Support with Condition - If we merge the article, then either a renaming has to happen to include information from Dec 9, or nothing from Dec 9 will be included. Elijahandskip (talk) 01:52, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

See my comment in the section above. I don't think that's an issue. TornadoLGS (talk) 01:53, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

The page will be merged and all content from Dec. 9 on will be included, regardless of the name of this page. United States Man (talk) 02:02, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

• EXTERMELY Strong Support Yes please. And no; renaming is just going to confuse the reader since no tornadoes happened on December 9.ChessEric (talk · contribs) 01:54, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
• STRONG support. The tornado outbreak will get the name as the primary event from 10-11, since it was by far the most prominent event. CrazyC83 (talk) 02:54, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Redirect

Do you think that “Quad-State Tornado” could be a redirect to the article? EmilyS1234 (talk) 14:37, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

Isn't it kinda early for a redirect? On one hand it's good to mention it in the article, but on the one hand, its not been confirmed that its a single tornado.--Halls4521 (talk) 14:50, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

There apparently already is one: Quad State tornado. United States Man (talk) 14:55, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

How to classify Dawson Springs deaths by county?

In the table by county, it lists 11 deaths for Hopkins County, citing 11 deaths in Dawson Springs; however, the city is located in 2 counties (Hopkins and Caldwell), and to complicate the matter, this article states 4 deaths in Caldwell County and also mentions a Dawson Road. What do you guys think? Skarmory (talk • contribs) 17:21, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

I'd say 4 in Caldwell and 7 in Hopkins until additional information is provided. CrazyC83 (talk) 18:37, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 December 2021

Requesting edit for thr tornado that occurred in berckindge and ohio countries in Kentucky I forgot the other county but it happened December 10th 2021 the Nws office in Louisville upgraded the preliminary rating from Ef1 to EF2 colord from cat1 to cat2 proof is herehttps://mobile.twitter.com/NWSLouisville/status/1470092837664526343 mobile chrome is having a hard time typing tweet text Unum livonium (talk) 18:39, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

 Done United States Man (talk) 18:49, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

Sections for notable tornadoes

Should some of the notable tornadoes (5+ deaths) have sections? 108.170.65.170 (talk) 21:56, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

When enough information is gathered to fill sections, they will be created with time. The short path length of the Edwardsville tornado is working against it; it can likely be effectively summarized in the table. United States Man (talk) 22:17, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

Transclude tornado table to monthly list?

This thought has occurred to me with previous outbreaks, but would it be a good idea to transclude the tornado list in this article to List of United States tornadoes from October to December 2021? I know @United States Man: put a link in the list because, well, things are chaotic enough that keeping two tables updated consistently is a real headache. But I thought that we might, instead, transclude the tables from this article. It saves us the redundant task of making the same updates to two pages. TornadoLGS (talk) 02:58, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

That also prevents the lists from having different content. United States Man (talk) 03:00, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I have an even better idea. Why don't we do this for ALL articles (excluding outbreak sequences). I get tired of having to update two articles and fixing refs for the same stinkin' time period.ChessEric (talk · contribs) 03:01, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

That's the idea. United States Man (talk) 03:05, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

I transcluded them but both tables come over for each section now? United States Man (talk) 03:12, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

Lemme try something. TornadoLGS (talk) 03:12, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

Looks like it worked. Only issue being the sections don't link back to this article. TornadoLGS (talk) 03:17, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

Template:Excerpt is likely what you are looking for. --Super Goku V (talk) 05:56, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

I tried implementing this and it failed. Turns out there were some tags on this article causing trouble for me on the other page. (However, there is another issue noted below that requires a different solution anyways.) --Super Goku V (talk) 22:47, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

@Super Goku V and TornadoLGS: That works perfectly except that Template:Coord is blacklisted from being transcluded at Module:Excerpt/config, so now the coords won't show up. United States Man (talk) 14:49, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

Well, that is a problem, but thankfully not a big one as Template:Transcluded section also exists. --Super Goku V (talk) 22:47, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

Ah, looks like everything has already been resolved anyways. Thank you.  :) --Super Goku V (talk) 22:52, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

The mayfield tornado should be a ef4 instead of a ef3

Pease take a look at the videos for damage 174.250.18.6 (talk) 03:09, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

We cannot rate tornadoes based on our own assessment as that would violate the policy of no original research. We have to wait for an NWS rating. It's early yet, so everything is preliminary anyway. TornadoLGS (talk) 03:11, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...no.ChessEric (talk · contribs) 04:50, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

Is there another way besides the NWS? Only thing I can think of is news sources, which might not be as accurate. --Super Goku V (talk) 05:54, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

The news gets their ratings to report from the NWS. United States Man (talk) 13:54, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

Yup, 'cause the NWS is the ONLY one with "Official" authority to rate the strength of Tornadoes, based on the surveys done on the tornado damage (which right now are still Preliminary and not finalized yet), which now a days take into account how strong and stable the structures were built. Again. ratings are based on expert damage assessments and damage survey data, not how to looks on video.--Halls4521 (talk) 14:50, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

@Super Goku V: In some cases we may mention rating disputes if they are from a sufficiently reliable source (i.e. real experts and not armchair meteorologists on the internet), but even then, the rating we put on the table is the official NWS rating. It is a preliminary rating, and a special assessment is usually required for anything higher than EF3 (see page 6 of this NWS document). TornadoLGS (talk) 19:28, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

Gotcha. That sounds reasonable to me. --Super Goku V (talk) 22:53, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

Need to change November to December.

"A tornado touched down near Bowling Green and approached downtown around 1:19 a.m. CST on November 11; the EF3 tornado developed on the back edge of a supercell spun off of a line of strong to severe thunderstorms over western Tennessee late in the evening of November 10. The overnight tornado's approach was noticed during long-form severe weather coverage on ABC/Fox affiliate WBKO; the station's tower camera, which was pointed toward the western sections of Bowling Green, captured a massive power failure in that part of the city as several transmission lines were knocked offline by the tornado, before the station's studio facility (located along US 68/KY 80 and the William H. Natcher Parkway) briefly lost electricity.[69]" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.115.7.68 (talk) 23:29, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

 Done; thanks for pointing this out. Kleinpecan (talk) 23:33, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

Mt. Juliet Tornado

In the early hours of Dec. 11, there was a tornado in Mt. Juliet, TN that damaged several houses and took out the power for several hours into the day itself. https://www.wsmv.com/news/wilson_county/10-14-homes-damaged-by-storms-in-mount-juliet/article_68117c60-5a75-11ec-a760-7b4514fd5288.html here's a link to a news article about it. The article is unsure whether it is a tornado or not, but then a damage map is shown which pretty much shows that it was a tornado. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.215.28.38 (talk) 22:22, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

I have added this source and another to the RefIdeas template at the top of this talk page in case more sources that can be used are found. Feel free to add any additional sources either here or in the template at the top. --Super Goku V (talk) 23:06, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

I am aware of this tornado, but NWS Nashville has yet to release a survey. It will be added with time. United States Man (talk) 23:36, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

Damage photos

I'm currently uploading photos from the DAT to add to this article. The damage is from Bowling Green, KY, Pontoon Beach/Edwardsville, IL, and Defiance, MO.ChessEric (talk · contribs) 01:03, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 13 December 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Withdrawn United States Man (talk) 03:49, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

---

Tornado outbreak of December 10–11, 2021 → December 2021 North American storm complex – Since we've merged the winter storm article into this one, we should change the name of the article to the standard naming convention for similar events (See December 2013 North American storm complex, December 2015 North American storm complex, and Late December 2012 North American storm complex). JustAnotherWikiUser0816 (talk) 02:30, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

• Strong oppose – This article is almost entirely about the tornado outbreak. Changing the title to something else would be misleading and give undue weight to an insignificant snowstorm. United States Man (talk) 02:34, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
• Opposed (For right now): There's no notable info for the Storm Complex as a whole outside this. Currently, the only thing of real notability is the deadly Tornado Outbreak (thus this article), and nothing else.--Halls4521 (talk) 02:44, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose The winter storm is of secondary importance to the tornado oubtreak and was only merged because that article probably should not have been created in the first place. In that regard the Tornado outbreak of April 14–16, 2011 is probably more comparable. Non-tornadic effects are pretty standard in tornado outbreak articles. TornadoLGS (talk) 03:10, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose: The tornado outbreak will be the most recognized part of the storm, and the most notable as well. No need to change the title just to be more inclusive of the background. Skarmory (talk • contribs) 03:14, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose - When people in the future look for this article, they will almost certainly be looking for the tornado outbreak. Changing the title will only lead people away from the content they are looking for. EdwardLeeLongisland (talk) 03:21, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose - This article is about the outbreak first and foremost basically with a small section regarding other impacts. If enough information can be compiled, then such an article can be created separately under said name that links to this one. DarkSide830 (talk) 03:24, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
  • Note Such article was already created (under a standard winter storm name), and was swiftly merged into this one, I don't believe anyone here would support splitting the winter storm off onto it's own. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JustAnotherWikiUser0816 (talk • contribs) 03:33, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
• EXTREMELY STRONG OPPOSE Really? This conversation again? How about no, no, nope, nada, and a big fat HECK NO.ChessEric (talk · contribs) 03:36, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
  • Note If you are going to Oppose, please do so in a more concise manner and give proper reasoning as per above instead of just "nope", also "EXTREMELY STRONG OPPOSE" is a bit unnecessary, a "strong oppose" at best world work. Thank you.JustAnotherWikiUser0816 (talk) 03:43, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
• Withdrawl It seems at this point there is strong concussions against, and I do understand the reasoning given. If there is more added onto the winter storm section, then potentially we could discuss this again, but at this time it does seem like the current article name will suffice.JustAnotherWikiUser0816 (talk) 03:44, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Jumping the gun on the death toll?

This AP article states that the death toll has been revised to 50. Not sure what to do with this, so I'm leaving it here for more experienced editors. There are still sources that say 80, so no idea what to think. Skarmory (talk • contribs) 03:23, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

• That's just speculated death toll for the candle factory in Mayfield alone, not confirmed deaths.JustAnotherWikiUser0816 (talk) 03:25, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

  "Dozens of people in several Kentucky counties are still believed to have died in the storms, but Beshear, after saying Sunday morning the state’s toll could exceed 100, said that afternoon it might be as low as 50."

  Direct quote from the article, it definitely mentions state toll there. Skarmory (talk • contribs) 05:15, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

  • "Still believed to have died... Could exceed... Might be as low as 50" Literally unconfirmed and simple speculation.JustAnotherWikiUser0816 (talk) 14:35, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
    • It is not speculation, however, that the death toll from the factory in Mayfield has been revised down to 8. So, the deaths toll in this article is a result of overblown estimates from the governor and news media. United States Man (talk) 14:42, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

Meteorological synopsis, paragraph 4 error

• Paragraph 4 on the Meteorological synopsis states that the tornado had an "average rotational vorticity of 94mph." This needs to be changed to "the tornado had an average rotational velocity of 81.61kt for over four hours":
• Rotational vorticity is not an actual thing wrt tornadoes... and the data used is incorrect anyways.:
• From SPC meteorologist Evan Bentley: https://twitter.com/evan_bentley/status/1469873772945571843?s=21 :

2605:A601:ACEB:4700:6188:75BE:D034:93C2 (talk) 15:01, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

 Done – "rotational vorticity" has been updated to "mesocyclonic vorticity" and further updated to clarify it being the parent supercell rather than the tornado(es) themselves, though the 94 mph will stay. JustAnotherWikiUser0816 (talk) 17:14, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 11 December 2021

Add a tornado of unknown intensity, first spotted in Gays (Moultrie Co IL) and then tracking through Mattoon, Humboldt, Fairgrange, and Oakland (all Coles Co). The tornado touched down around 9:58 PM Central and lifted around 10:20 PM Central. Several structures, including one home, were damaged or destroyed in Gays (see https://jg-tc.com/news/local/photos-storm-takes-toll-on-moultrie-county-home/collection_c5f84610-695a-5b40-907c-78daef322af0.html?utm_campaign=snd-autopilot); no injuries or fatalities have been reported. See NWS Lincoln IL Tweet: https://twitter.com/NWSLincolnIL/status/1469516987135000577 139.67.225.32 (talk) 21:34, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

• Will check and verify when I have the time to do so in order to resolve edit request. JustAnotherWikiUser0816 (talk) 17:24, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

 Done - Tornado has been added, edit request just not resolved. JustAnotherWikiUser0816 (talk) 18:37, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

Missouri impact subsection

The Missouri subsection is lacking much information on damage. I believe the corresponding storm was that EF 3 NW of Augusta to SE of Harvester tornado. It hasn't been expanded and there should be more information available, so please add on.--Dora the Axe-plorer (explore the morgue) 12:47, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

I'll see what I can do a bit later. It is notably small. Skarmory (talk • contribs) 21:24, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

Tornadic vs. non-tornadic deaths

While most of them were indeed tornadic, there are number of deaths that were actually non-tornadic so can we specify that in the opening? I specifically talking about where it says 88 people were killed by tornadoes, which is not true.ChessEric (talk · contribs) 21:54, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

Yes, we should specify. Do we have any numbers on non-tornadic deaths? TornadoLGS (talk) 21:56, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

@United States Man: If I'm not mistaken, I know that the death in Shelby County was non-tornadic, right?ChessEric (talk · contribs) 22:00, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

I was also about to ask about certain sections for individual tornadoes, but I see United States Man is already on it. LOL!ChessEric (talk · contribs) 22:01, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

There were two tornado warnings down there, but I've not seen Memphis say anything about surveying damage. United States Man (talk) 22:01, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

Incorrect formatting-please refer to previous major outbreak articles!

What is with the huge sections of information listed by state below the tornado table?? Why can we never do this with any degree of consistency? That is NOT how it is done, and there is zero precedent for the sudden change. Please refer to the 2020 Easter tornado outbreak to see how it is supposed to be done. A "Confirmed Tornadoes" section needs to be made with a table, followed by individual writeups for the most significant tornadoes of the outbreak. The list of state by state impacts is already a disorganized mess. Consistency guys, please... TornadoInformation12 (talk) 07:05, 13 December 2021 (UTC)TornadoInformation12

I am aware of how it is supposed to be and I’m just letting it play out. Once surveys come in and some of the extra help drops off then we can fix everything. United States Man (talk) 10:34, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

Yeah. It's likely the best option until we know the breakdown of the AR-KY tornado family. TornadoLGS (talk) 21:27, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

It was just temporary. No need to freak out man.ChessEric (talk · contribs) 22:25, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

Clean up Impact section

The impact section should focus more on impacts that aren't damage summaries or track details of a particular tornado. I split most of that large section into sections for the significant tornadoes. United States Man (talk) 22:15, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

Thanks bro. I was literally thinking the same thing right before you split it up.ChessEric (talk · contribs) 22:19, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

I know you knew better but some of the fair-weather editors did not. United States Man (talk) 22:26, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

Oh. I understand. Thanks. We could move the things that don't involve tornadoes to the non-tornadic impacts section, while just removing the parts that do.ChessEric (talk · contribs) 22:45, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

if the "quad-state tornado" is confirmed as a single tornado should this article's name change to "Quad-State tornado outbreak" ?

title Sdgedfegw (talk) 03:28, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

• No, as there are several other notable tornadoes than just the Quad State Family, and there was also the preceding winter storm.JustAnotherWikiUser0816 (talk) 03:30, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
• No. This article is about the outbreak, not jut the one tornado/tornado family. The page to be moved would be 2021 Western Kentucky tornado. TornadoLGS (talk) 03:32, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
• Comment: I think you guys might be misunderstanding what I believe they're saying; I think they're stating that the outbreak should be named the Quad State outbreak, not renaming the article to the Quad State Tornado. Skarmory (talk • contribs) 05:20, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
  • That makes more sense, but I think that might lead to confusion with the article for the individual tornado. TornadoLGS (talk) 05:24, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
• No. Misleading as the outbreak affected more than four states, and as LGS said, the page to be moved would be 2021 Western Kentucky tornado. Destroyeraa (Alternate account) 21:15, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
• No. First, I have doubts about it being officially referred to as the "Quad–State Tornado" (whether it is one or not, and most evidence so far says its not). Secondly, the "Tri–State" Outbreak (1925), the "Toledo–Gainesville" Outbreak (1936) and the "Flint–Worcester" Outbreak sequence were named as such due to those tornadoes (for the most part) being the only notable storms in those systems. And, as mentioned above, there are several notable tornadoes in this outbreak.--Halls4521 (talk) 02:31, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

Kenton–Dresden, Tennessee – Pembroke, Kentucky section notability

I do not believe the EF3 tornado for that section is notable enough for a subsection. No fatalities and very few injuries. So, any chance we can discussion the notability of that subsection? Elijahandskip (talk) 22:31, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

Over 100-mile path? Yes. United States Man (talk) 22:33, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

Where do you see "100-mile path". The subsection says "with a path length of 22 miles (35 km)" Elijahandskip (talk) 22:35, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

Let's see: (1) near EF4 damage (rating is still pending by the way, so it could be EF4), (2) tracked over 100 miles, (3) caused injuries, (4) crossed state lines, and (5) caused significant damage in SEVERAL towns. Seems notable enough to me.ChessEric (talk · contribs) 22:36, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

The chart says >100 miles! The part your talking about is a specific section of the path.ChessEric (talk · contribs) 22:37, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

To make sure this is clear, this tornado started in Newbern, Tennessee and ended in Pembroke, Kentucky. The distance between these two points is approximately 114 miles. The tornado had a rating of EF3 from Newbern to Kentucky Lake (71.6 miles in the article) and a rating of EF2 continuing from Kentucky Lake to Fort Campbell (22 miles in the article). Although unmentioned, the distance between Fort Campbell and Pembroke is 10.5 miles. That hopefully clears up some of the confusion. --Super Goku V (talk) 05:00, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

According to DAT, it is closer to 124 miles, but still... United States Man (talk) 05:04, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

That should be the correct number. I should have mentioned that the 114 miles and 10.5 miles were based off of information obtained through Google Maps, which is why those numbers lack the "in the article" part. Given that this was more about confusion over the distance and less about sourcing, I figured that an approximation from Google Maps would be sufficient, though I should have made that clearer. --Super Goku V (talk) 06:22, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

Most Expensive Outbreak in History?

Per: [1] economic damages to reach 18 billion. --Kuzwa (talk) 06:43, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

@Kuzwa: AccuWeather isn't a reliable source for damage estimates so I wouldn't put much weight into that value. ~ Cyclonebiskit (chat) 06:44, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

Thanks. Wasn't sure how Wikipedia considered damage estimates. Cheers. --Kuzwa (talk) 06:59, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

Add Indiana section

Is it possible to add an Indiana section now? (Although I have asked this question earlier.) Since there are 4 references, I think this may be enough for an Indiana section. Any thoughts may go below this line. Severestorm28 (talk) 21:15, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

Most of the impacts were non-tornadic, but if we can gather enough info, I think we can add one shortly.ChessEric (talk · contribs) 21:51, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

It has been done, but apparently several of the sections in the states were being merged around, so it might end up cut out of the article or merged elsewhere. --Super Goku V (talk) 07:27, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

Point Of Order on the FAQ above

Since Winter storms are not officially named, why is one used on the second Q point? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fiveinchheels (talk • contribs) 01:31, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

@Fiveinchheels: The names are a product of The Weather Channel. They are not official or recognized by the National Weather Service. They generally see little use outside The Weather Channel. TornadoLGS (talk) 01:35, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

I'm aware of their unofficial nature, so why is it used here? Fiveinchheels (talk) 01:38, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

Winter Storm Atticus is a redirect to this article. While unofficial, Weather Channel names are likely search terms, so we make sure people are directed to the article of the appropriate storm. But such a search redirecting to a tornado outbreak might cause some confusion. TornadoLGS (talk) 01:47, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

Now tied for most tornadoes in a December outbreak (44-1982)

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tornadoes_of_1982#December_23%E2%80%9325. JustAnotherWikiUser0816 (talk) 05:04, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

Nashville ??

The track map mentioned above on the NWS Paducah (KPAH) site is showing EF0, 1 and 2 tracks in and around the Nashville city center. Fiveinchheels (talk) 12:00, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

And? United States Man (talk) 12:51, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

It isn't mentioned anywhere in the main page that I can see. Fiveinchheels (talk) 18:10, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

The tornadoes are on the table. It may could have a mention somewhere other than that though. United States Man (talk) 18:26, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

Error

My count shows 84 tornado deaths, and ~70 in Kentucky. Where did the other four deaths come in? 69.118.232.58 (talk) 21:16, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

Saloma

Than NWS in Louisville has a preliminary rating of 170 mph EF4 on the tornado that was near Saloma. EF5Boi (talk) 00:42, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

3rd EF4 EF5Boi (talk) 00:45, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

No, their page lists it as a 145 mph EF3. TropicalAnalystwx13 (talk · contributions) 00:49, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

Shelby death

Are we including this in the death toll/deaths by county table or no? I have no idea what the policy is on indirect deaths in tornado articles. Skarmory (talk • contribs) 21:43, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

Indirect deaths are mentioned in the infobox as indirect e.g. "Fatalities: 70 (+1 indirect)." TornadoLGS (talk) 21:46, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 December 2021

i found a source saying $3 billion in insured damages can we add https://amp.insurancejournal.com/news/southeast/2021/12/14/645530.htm 47.19.209.230 (talk) 19:13, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Melmann 20:57, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

For damage it's best to wait for an official NWS estimate and not some random agency. United States Man (talk) 20:58, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

KPAH Survey Information and Photos

New pictures and interactive track map:

https://www.weather.gov/pah/December-10th-11th-2021-Tornado

Updated with : "Tornado #2 Long-Track EF-3 Tornado Across NW TN into W KY" Fiveinchheels (talk) 02:15, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

NWS Regional Overview With Links to Surveys from other WFOs

Added this morning: https://www.weather.gov/crh/dec112021 Fiveinchheels (talk) 18:53, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

EF4 damage in Cayce

Aparently NWS Memphis leaked some of their internal damage viewer info in a prelim post about the Newbern tornado that clearly shows an EF4 damage indicator next to Cayce.

https://twitter.com/NWSMemphis/status/1470539071030284294?s=20 upper left hand corner of the screen shot

Won't actually update until they've made that public but still it's likely that will happen soon. JustAnotherWikiUser0816 (talk) 00:08, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

Well...the post doesn't exist anymore so...yeah. LOL!ChessEric (talk · contribs) 00:20, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

They deleted that and issued a new tweet on the Dresden EF3. They don't want to release much info until a coherent path and survey has been completed (but not a thorough and complete survey, which likely will take a week or two). United States Man (talk) 00:23, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

Yea I saw that lol, just putting it out there that it happened so yea.JustAnotherWikiUser0816 (talk) 00:25, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

Image of the deleted tweet https://imgur.com/a/lYtqc05

EdwardLeeLongisland (talk) 00:30, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

Are you sure? I don't see an EF4 point on it. Of course, it doesn't matter because its not official yet, but I just wanted to point that out.ChessEric (talk · contribs) 00:46, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

If you zoom very closely into the top left of the image, in the group of points you can see a red cone, which means it is an EF4 point.EdwardLeeLongisland (talk) 01:39, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

I think it might be a red circle, actually. They sometimes use that to mark a damage indicator that is worth noting, but can't be given an EF-rating. TornadoLGS (talk) 01:42, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

It has a clear sharp top and edge, its clearly a cone. The red circle also has a black x inside it which can't be seen here. This isn't a surprise at all.JustAnotherWikiUser0816 (talk) 02:06, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

This is dissolving into a WP:FORUM issue. United States Man (talk) 02:14, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

Let's just wait untill NWS release their official results concerning ratings. Rushing "just to be the first to report it" may lead to some mistakes and bad info.--Halls4521 (talk) 02:37, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

Of course, I was just making it known that it happend, hence why I didn't rush to update it to EF4, just noting it happend in case some one else does do that.JustAnotherWikiUser0816 (talk) 02:50, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

I agree, waiting is the only way we're going to be able to make this article perfectly accurate. Mmapgamerboy (talk) 04:23, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

Is this track now confirmed to be broken south of KY west of Union City, TN, or has that area just not been fully surveyed yet? Fiveinchheels (talk) 20:29, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

They've added more data/survey points, but have not connected the two long track lines and it doesn't look like they will. No long track record it appears. Fiveinchheels (talk) 23:39, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

Thanks from a Kentucky Wikipedian

Thank you all so much for putting this article together. We are in shock here in Kentucky. Kindly speedily delete this comment if inappropriate. A grateful Kentuckian. Alan Canon (talk) 07:12, 15 December 2021 (UTC) @Alan Canon: You're welcome! Hope all is good with you. United States Man (talk) 02:32, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

2nd Bowling Green tornado section notability

Do we really need a section for the second Bowling Green tornado? If we didn't do sections for the Defiance, Missouri or the Russellville-Bowling Green tornadoes, why does that one need a section? It didn't really do anything notable.ChessEric (talk · contribs) 21:59, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

On its own, it wouldn't be, but it's notable for Bowling Green getting hit by two significant tornadoes. TornadoLGS (talk) 22:37, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

I think having a section for it will help people distinguish between the two. As they may think a certain place got hit by one when in fact it was the other. United States Man (talk) 23:23, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

True. However, we didn't do that after Beauregard–Smiths Station, Alabama/Talbotton, Georgia EF4 tornado and the Tuskegee–Beauregard, Alabama EF2 tornado that had path .4 miles from it in 2019. I tried to make a section for that and that got removed. I guess the difference there was the size of the place hit though, right?ChessEric (talk · contribs) 00:37, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Could be inconsistent standards, but I do recall an old guideline, buried somewhere, that considered the population of a city/town when figuring out a tornado's notability. TornadoLGS (talk) 01:55, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

I thought so.ChessEric (talk · contribs) 02:40, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

Mayfield tornado GIF

Is it possible to add this GIF to the Mayfield tornado section? Or it could go to the 2021 Western Kentucky tornado. This was when the tornado was near Jonesboro, Arkansas. GIF: Severestorm28 16:23, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

There were some issues with the Common's description. I attempted to fix them, but am unsure that it has been properly done. This might prevent this file from being useable on the article in the long-term, so I believe it needs to be double checked. Outside of that, I don't see a problem at this time. --Super Goku V (talk) 02:20, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

User is breaking precedent and repeatedly using wrong formatting

So user United States Man is reverting my edits to correct his wrong section title formatting. Cities and towns are separated by dashes and states are separated by slashes. This is how it’s always been done, but he’s forgotten and is convinced he’s right, and won’t listen to what I am trying to explain. He is threatening to ban me, even though he is in the wrong. Look at the other articles with long trackers. The way he is doing it is wrong, precedent shows this, and I’m tired of arguing when I know I’m in the right. Please back me up in this! Thanks TornadoInformation12 (talk) 23:08, 30 December 2021 (UTC)TornadoInformation12

Accusing other editors of being wrong and plaining stating that "I know the correct way to do it" is WP:OWN behavior. There is no set rule anywhere that governs any of this, so a precedent argument is invalid. United States Man (talk) 23:11, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

That invalidates nothing. All other section titles have been done the way I am saying. You have zero precedent, while I have plenty. You’ll see when others weigh in on this.

TornadoInformation12 (talk) 23:15, 30 December 2021 (UTC)TornadoInformation12

And you know what? I could flip the same argument you are using back around on you. Why is your version of formatting more valid to the point where you are justified in reverting mine? Answer: it’s not, and you are changing procedure without due discussion of it. You argument holds less water than mine does, as you have no discussion to support your proposed change, and once again, no precedent. Logic is favoring my viewpoint here.

TornadoInformation12 (talk) 23:21, 30 December 2021 (UTC)TornadoInformation12

And you know what else? You called my formatting “wrong” in the edit summary. Then, in the about very section, you said there isn’t a right or wrong way. So which is it? It seems to me you are just grasping at straws and contradicting your own statements to do support your own agenda, whether it makes since or not. I will screencap that edit summary for proof to show others. Yo are being needlessly oppositional with ZERO basis to support your argument besides ban threats and clutching to WP: OWN.

TornadoInformation12 (talk) 23:33, 30 December 2021 (UTC)TornadoInformation12

It does appear that there is precedent for using slashes to separate states and dashes to separate towns within a state. It's not a written rule, but it seems to be the common format for other outbreak articles. So, I lean slightly in favor of using the format of other articles. I can see why someone would prefer the other format, though. Either way, having an edit war over this is very WP:LAME, and I think folks need to WP:COOL down. TornadoLGS (talk) 02:13, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

Link for Western Kentucky tornado in table.

Since we have a section for the Western Kentucky tornado, I think the link in the tornado should go to the section, not the article. If people want to see the article, they can choose to click on the link their. Its what we did in the past.ChessEric (talk · contribs) 05:23, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Mayfield EF4

My weather team and I think that Tim Marshall may possibly rate Princeton EF5. Since some of the most significant damage is in Princeton, Kentucky from this tornado, and the damage photos are just horrendous. There does look to be EF5 candidates there. Also we measured the path at about 1.8 miles wide from one DI triangle to the other. This tornado may have been approaching 2 miles wide at some points and it’s life. 2601:247:C500:43E0:4DCB:E192:AD1D:9587 (talk) 12:49, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

Until such information is published in a reliable source, it can't be included here. Also note that, per WP:NOTFORUM, this is not a page for general discussion of information about these tornadoes, unless it pertains to its inclusion in this article. TornadoLGS (talk) 18:43, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

If you want to see that it was 1.78 miles wide go to this website from the NWS. It’s already confirmed. https://images.weatherbell.com/model/gfs-deterministic/ky/frzr_total/1642010400/1642474800-8vvyjyv9XVU.png EF5Boi (talk) 00:42, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

Meant to post this link. This is the website. https://apps.dat.noaa.gov/StormDamage/DamageViewer/ EF5Boi (talk) 00:43, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

The listed path width is still 1,760 yards. TornadoLGS (talk) 02:17, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

Split?

This page is becoming long. Can we either split out the tornado table into a page like we’ve done for these types of outbreaks in the past, or make one for the bowling green ones to cut down on size? 69.118.232.58 (talk) 20:34, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

It’s actually not that long. I think it’s fine as is. United States Man (talk) 21:44, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

There is no reason for it to be as large as it is. Tornado sections should not be a regurgitation of DAT. That is undue weight. We'll have a project discussion about it soon. TropicalAnalystwx13 (talk · contributions) 23:40, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

I do think those sections are way too excessively detailed and need to be trimmed. That would help any issue of size with this article. United States Man (talk) 00:44, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

Quad-state tornado redirect

Right now "Quad-state tornado" is a redirect to this article. It was created when we were not sure if a single long-track tornado had caused damage in four states. Now we know that isn't the case and one member of that tornado family has its own article. Should it be something other than a redirect, since the track it refers to includes a tornado with an article and a tornado with a section in this article? Alternatively, perhaps the Monette/Samburg tornado and Mayfield/Bremen tornado sections could be grouped under a "Quad-state tornado family" heading. TornadoLGS (talk) 21:25, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

I think it should remain as is. People who type in “Quad state tornado” will be redirected here and hopefully understand that there wasn’t a quad-state tornado. Also, I see no reason to group the sections under one header, since we don’t ever do that for any other tornado families. United States Man (talk) 21:53, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Death toll

This NCDC source says 93 deaths. I'll leave it here, as I don't feel like figuring it out myself as of now, but I may do that later. Skarmory (talk • contribs) 21:39, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

Survey information from NWS Memphis

http://www.weather.gov/meg/dec102021tor

Details from AR into TN before passing to KY.

Fiveinchheels (talk)

Outbreak summary map

The file containing the image with the outbreak summary map, in the meteorological synopsis section of the article, has not been updated in months. It is presently missing some of the tornado tracks, prominently, the deadly Bowling Green EF3 tornado that killed 17 people. More tornado tracks could be missing, but I can't spot them by eye. I feel it is necessary to source a new map, updated with all tornado tracks present in it. Mjeims (talk) 20:29, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

@Grwise1:, the map creator. TornadoLGS (talk) 20:35, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

ef5 (my thoughts)

i was wondering did the mayfield tornado been a ef5 at one point? i am just wondering. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lolkikmoddi (talk • contribs) 13:58, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

@Lolkikmoddi: No, according to the National Weather Service, which governs rating tornadoes and is our source for this rating. (See the first citation after the first paragraph in the Mayfield tornado's section.) Skarmory (talk • contribs) 03:15, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

@Lolkikmoddi: The NCEI released updated information for December 2021's tornadoes ([2]) and did not upgrade the Mayfield tornado to EF5. I am not aware of any reliable source indicating EF5 intensity, and we should avoid speculation per WP:NOTFORUM. TornadoLGS (talk) 03:22, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

ok thanks Lolkikmoddi (talk) 13:24, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

Split proposal

I'd like to propose that Tornado_outbreak_of_December_10–11,_2021#Bowling_Green,_Kentucky gets split into a seperate article. The readable prose size is 96 kilobytes, and per WP:SIZERULE, it should be split. I would be open to splitting out the tornado outbreak into a seperate article, List of tornadoes in the Tornado outbreak of December 10-11, 2021 but I'd prefer if the Bowling Green tornado is split out because it appears to have outgrown it's section.

Between the two tornadoes, the readable prose of those sections alone is 15 kilobytes. Due to rewriting, and an MH and whatnot, an article titled 2021 Bowling Green tornadoes (we currently have a redirect for 2021 Bowling Green tornado, I'd be open to that as well) will have enough content to fill the article. The death toll of 16, as well as the 63 injuries, also certainly makes it notable enough for an article. However, it appears contentious. Rather then start a draft I'd like to ask - should we have an article on the Bowling Green tornadoes? 47.16.96.33 (talk) 19:35, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose – We are actually in the business of merging tornado articles back into outbreak pages rather than creating new ones. I could maybe see a list page but I'm not really onboard with it. United States Man (talk) 21:54, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

NOTE: Proposer was a now blocked sock. Editors are free to continue discussion or let it get archived. Elijahandskip (talk) 19:39, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

Welp, I think this conversation is over then. If not, I slightly oppose. XD ChessEric (talk · contribs) 18:44, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

I am with ChessEric in a weak oppose. Generally, I think only exceptional tornado should be split from outbreak articles. TornadoLGS (talk) 21:54, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

Oppose Definitely think a split would be counterintuitive. --Wikiwillz (talk) 00:28, 18 September 2022 (UTC)