Talk:Tori Amos/Archive 1

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World Wide Album Sales

Want to ask if there's anything official about the 12 million albums Tori supposedly has sold world wide. How do you know it's that much? I find it more likely she's sold more than that. I mean, Little Earthquakes alone has supposedly sold one fourth of her world wide sales, sales being 12 million. And together with Under The Pink more than half. Anyone wondering the same thing?Revan ltrl 22:49, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Before we change anything, sources should be attained. This goes for the discography page as well. — Sam 22:57, 22 March 2007 (UTC)


--- What site are the official album sales on... I thought Boys for Pele was one of here most succesful albums as it was featured in so many magazines in 1996/97... how is i it sold only 1.6 million WW?

My question exactly. Anyone know where reliable album sales information can be found? — Sam 22:50, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

The Scarlets Walk copy protection.

In an attempt to prevent Internet trading of the album, Amos, in conjunction with her husband and crew, invented a special kind of glue to bind closed portable CD players containing the album. These were then distributed to the press on the understanding that they would be returned within forty-eight hours. If an attempt was made to open the player, both it and the disc inside would shatter. The success of this attempt was so great that the record industry began to follow suit.


I guess Tori had never heard of the analog hole has she? You can just take a 2 plug headphones wire, hook up the portable cd player to a computer and turn on a recording program that will record it from the mixed input setting. You can make very high quality rips that way as long as the volume settings and everything else is right.

So there ya go, I just ruined the Tori Amos copy protection. ----Arm

Gosh, that was catty. Hey, guess what Mr. Catty-person? You can disable the analog input, or cement it shut with more glue. :P Pacian 17:33, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Gosh that was a brainless reply Pacian. Maybe if you read the analog hole article youde understand what I meant instead of just compulsivly replying and not even understanding what I am talking about.

Disable the analog input? Huh? You mean on the cd player or the computer? If you disable it on the cd player (by breaking the cd player or gluing the headphones hole shut I assume) then the intenction to send it to the press for review is completly destroyed since the cd wont play.

And if you mean disable the analog input, well if a ripper takes it to his computer he can just turn on analog input.Arm

--

<rant> I deleted the word "literally" in the sentence "[she]...literally invented a kind of glue...". As opposed to what, metaphorically inventing it? It's a small point and some may think this is being pedantic, but sloppy English like this bugs the hell out of me! The article is all the better for its excision. <\rant> GRAHAMUK 04:01, 2 Sep 2003 (UTC)

<RANT>Psudo-HTML end tags should use a slash, not a BACKSLASH character. I realize it may seem pedantic, but sloppy coding like this literally bugs the hell out of me!!!</RANT>

--

I would like to see a source citation for the paragraph regarding the "special kind of glue." This was confusing and raised a number of questions. Was this exclusively a publicity stunt, limited to a few copies? Otherwise all copies of the album would be useless for the general public. If it was a limited stunt, how could it realistically impact the ability of the public to rip/burn the album? It seems highly illogical and improbable that anyone in the recording industry would produce CDs that glued shut CD players. With all due respect to the author, this paragraph comes off as an urban legend. Citation would lend it credibility. P.S.- The current photo is also rather scary. There are a lot better photos of Tori out there that look more like her. I'd be great to see a different one. -- New Visitor & owner of the album in question. 3:10, 25 Mar 2004 (PST)

I think the paragraph says it was a few copies which were sent out ahead of the actual release to reviewers. I have no idea if Amos ever did this, but many artists have, so it doesn't seem unlikely. Tuf-Kat 11:19, Mar 25, 2004 (UTC)
Before the commonality of internet music trading, artists and labels would often issue full-length promotional copies of their CDs (often with unique packaging) to music industry professionals for the purpose of review. The technology of copy-protected CDs was invented to prevent this, but it was flawed and often broke people's CD-players. For Scarlet's Walk, Amos and her husband and crew invented a glue-substance; they then put promotional copies of the album inside CD-discmen and glued them shut; these were mailed out to industry professionals with the demand of their return within a specific time frame. If one attempted to open them, the disc would shatter inside the device. This is what occurred. Pacian 03:44, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

--

Glue?

I just read the thing about the special glue being used as copyright protection and I have some points to bring up. Let us consider the logistics of this so called copyright protection. It would be extremely expensive to send individual CD players to many different radio stations! Also, if the CD player had some kind of glue in it which would prevent the device from opening, then how does the actual CD itself rotate? Makes you think, huh? Jaberwocky6669 | 02:32, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm sure it's certainly possible to glue shut a cd player if you have the time and skill to figure out how to. But the problem is that it wouldnt help. As I menctioned a while ago the problem with this is the analog hole. A ripper could easily make a high quality rip by hooking up the cd player to their computer, play the music through the computer and record it. These warez groups are quite resourceful so don't think a glued shut cd player is gonna stop them. --Arm 10:06, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

very full article, be careful though, proper usage is to refer to the surname rather than the given name.JFQ

oops - I just wrote in a recent change that "More Pink" was a bootleg. It's not, but neither is it a proper separate album release; it was a bonus disc to a special tour edition of Under The Pink, it was never released separately. --AW

My word, this is an appalling image. :-) I've emailed the owner of The Dent to see if he has any decent images he'd be willing to release to us... Evercat 02:47, 30 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Now done. I think this one's better. :-) Evercat 17:56, 30 Jul 2003 (UTC)

What about her relationship with Neil Gaiman and her appearance in his Sandman graphic novels?2toise 11:30, 18 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Thanks for the note, Pacian at Talk:Fiona Apple. I have removed the see also to because no explanation of why one should also see them is given. Tuf-Kat 05:29, Apr 23, 2004 (UTC)

Kate Bush is explained. The other two are fairly obvious Tori analogues for readers seeking similar artists e.g. [1]. Having said that, I see that neither Coldplay nor Muse "also see" Radiohead; and David Sylvian doesn't peripherally eyeball Bryan Ferry, so... 'tis no big.

chocolateboy

That is exactly the danger of doing "sounds-likes" in articles. You see, though many critics compared Amos to Bush, especially early in her career, her many fans have always shunned this comparison (myself included); I think they are nothing alike save for an affinity for the piano. And for some reason Tori is always lumped in with Bjork/Harvey because the three did a magazine cover together in 1994, and they are friends. But Tori Amos and Bjork are such complete polar-opposites musically, it's rediculous to list them as 'alike'. Pacian 17:30, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Hi, Pacian. Are we still discussing this? It was removed because it's not done for other artists. The rest is your opinion, which I respect but disagree with. chocolateboy 18:28, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Are you sure that it's Delirium in the Sandman comics who is supposed to resemble Amos? She's an early teen with short hair. Despite being a brunette, I always thought it was Death who had more in common with Tori. And she did write the intro to Death: the High Cost of Living, too.

Sandman

Are you sure that it's Delirium in the Sandman comics who is supposed to resemble Amos? She's an early teen with short hair. Despite being a brunette, I always thought it was Death who had more in common with Tori. And she did write the intro to Death: the High Cost of Living, too. Bjones

Yes. I've added one of those citation thingums. [2]
chocolateboy 04:11, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Death is CLEARLY a homage to Siouxsie Sioux.
In her preface to "Death: The high cost of living", Amos says something like "I've always felt related to her [Death] though people tell me I'm more Delirium". The character Delirium is an obvious homage to her - and not the only one Gaiman has made: In the very same book where Delerium ends up looking quite remarkably like her ("Brief Lives") there's a song playing at the S/M nightclub Delirium walks into in the beginning. If you look at the lyric lines "floating" in the background, you'll notice it's from "Tear in your hand": "Cutting my hands up every time I touch you... So you say you don't wanna stay together anymore... Let me take a deep breath baby..." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.157.237.76 (talk) 20:33, August 24, 2007 (UTC)
Well, that's why one should read before one comments. I see now it already says that in the article. Oh well. Anyway. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.157.237.76 (talk) 20:42, August 24, 2007 (UTC)

Photo

Surely someone can find a better photo of Tori than the one posted.

I agree. Couldn't licensing issues be avoided by just using a good photo of her from one of her albums since they're considered promotional? Sam 01:53, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
  • If you want a new primary photo, it has to be under a free license. You can start by looking here.--Fallout boy 06:08, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

I really liked that purple one of her, but I htink it's from a magazine. That ugly botoxed one of her that's up now is so bad, I hope someone gets another one.

  • Can we go with the press released one from her new album? Surely her label have put that in the public domain by releasing it to all the media? - PRL1973 Feb 07

God bless whoever found the new pic

Any pic but this one! She is a beautiful woman, there are better pics.84.217.48.223 01:16, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

"Fans" section

Is this section necessary?

  • Agreed. While it does fit in with the cloying fan-worship attitude of the overall article, making it ironically funny, it really isn't much use as information.
    • Well? Shall we cut it?
      • I don't think so, I think it's quite informative and interesting, with the mentions of her calling them "feet and ears" and them using the term "Toriphiles" -- I vote for it to remain. -- Omernos 10:31, 8 July 2006 (UTC)


I just would like to know who her beanie is and what does she look like??

  • Beanie/Bean are the nicknames of one of her best friends, Nanci Shanks, who sang backing vocals on Little Earthquakes. - PRL1973, 11-Dec-06

I think it's mistaken to list Courtney Love as a fan - isn't there about 10 years of acrimony on file between them? The 'slow dance' comment currently mentioned on this page was sarcastic, I think. - PRL1973, 11-Dec-06

When was the "infamous" radio interview where she turns hostile? I can't find mention of it anywhere except in this article and other pages referenceing this article. There's a sort of circular citation going on. Not saying it didn't happen, just wondering why it's not cited?68.190.74.237 00:18, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

NPOV?

This and other tactics were employed in a vindictive attempt to ruin Amos’s career, and it seemed to work temporarily, as album sales steadily declined.

So there's hard definite proof that it was "vindictive"? Or perhaps this was merely fawning on the part of the author of that section? This is all going to be he-said-she-said anyway.

I have to agree. I find the entire section on Amos' fight with her label a little over the top. Perhaps if we had some kind of documentation to prove that the label behaved in that manner, it would help? --Wolf530 23:18, July 11, 2005 (UTC)
So.. What do we do? Is there a "Written in Fan Worship" header, like an NPOV or Cleanup header? ;-)
There is an entire chapter in Amos' recently published book "Piece by Piece" in which she discusses the very incidents that are addressed in this section, so if you want to go and buy a copy, there is your citation, but I'm not going to sit here and retype it all for you because A: I can't be bothered, and B: that would be plagarism.
Just because it's citable doesn't necessarily mean it's NPOV. That just means it's from Tori's own POV. Perhaps the issue could be resolved with some strategically-placed insertions of the phrase, "According to Amos"? I just went in there to fix a few things in the section. I still think the second, third, and fourth paragraphs have POV problems, and so I'm adding a POV notice. I don't own Tori's book, and it would probably be good for someone who does to specifically quote it (it's not plagiarism if it's done in bite-sized excerpts and attributed correctly). --C-squared 17:09, August 8, 2005 (UTC)
Yes, but it's BETTER if it's original phrasing. Who could POSSIBLY be more of an authority on the experience than Amos herself? I must say your argument is flimsy at best. Should we also go dig up a copy of her birth certificate to verify that the date of birth she claims is true? Or a death certificate confirming she hasn't fabricated the death of her brother? For public figures all we have are what they give us, or what is given to us by the press: this section is relevant and factual in-so-far as the information currently available to the public. I'll gladly add "according to amos"-es out the wazoo but your point, though understood, is flawed. 69.3.198.145 06:39, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
I will concede that citing the source will suffice in the absence of respondent material. 69.3.198.145's removal of the POV notice and replacement with the disclaimer works to effectively "cite" the source. (Is there any need to get hostile about it?) The main criticism here, though, is that this is an encyclopedia entry, not a Tori Amos fawn-fest. I'm not contesting that the events occurred; I'm challenging that there's bias in the way it's written in this section. The language in the section a few versions ago (e.g., "If Amos's reputation suffered for Atlantic's insults"? Come on) was unapologetically biased, and there is still questionable language remaining in the section. Notably (but not limited to):
  • "This and other tactics were employed in a vindictive attempt to ruin Amos’s career" --The phrase in question which began this debate.
  • "After a discussion with her spiritual muses" --Does this belong in an encyclopedia article? What does that mean?
  • "People in positions of power there were changing" --Who? The phrase is ambiguous and sounds conspiratorial. Surely this is documented somewhere.
I would love to soften the language and make the changes myself, but I don't have the details to make an educated edit.
One last thing, regarding an earlier comment (three above this one): I don't think it's conducive to improving the quality of this article for someone who has the source material to refuse to cite it because he or she "can't be bothered." --C-squared 01:03, August 13, 2005 (UTC)

Album covers

I hope that my album covers improved Tori's page. If not, please feel free to remove my edits. Adreamsoul 06:23, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

They're a nice touch. I personally like them, but I have a concern that they might lend too much of a "promotional" feel to the article, rather than being an authentic encyclopedia entry. Maybe we could include some covers but not others? --C-squared 06:58, August 9, 2005 (UTC)

Ok, I took your advice and got rid of a few of them. It looks better to me now. Adreamsoul 07:20, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

They are cluttersome and inappropriate. This is not a fan web page, it is an encyclopedia. There should be one photograph that is generally representative of the subject, and that is all. Album cover photos belong on the pages related to the album. I am removing them all. Please aquaint yourself with policy.
You also need an acquaintence with policy. Sign your posts. I'm not so sure, either, that the rules are so stringent that album covers cannot be placed on the page. Which part of the "policy" are you referring to?? Adreamsoul 09:37, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

Um, I also saw all of the album covers on the Nine Inch Nails page. Is that against policy as well? It doesn't really seem like that big of a deal since the only reason I can imagine a person would come to the Tori page is if they were already a fan. And if you are just looking for information on her then her albums are as important as anything else you could ever want to know about her. Now, could everyone just smile? Amilee

Yes, it is, and had someone noticed it before they would have been removed, but instead I'll do it now. Your comment expressly indicates your ignorance as to why Wikipedia exists: the whole purpose of an entry on any topic, including Tori Amos, is for people to come here and learn about the topic should they be so inclined; thus I would hope people would utilize an entry here, as they would in any ENCYCLOPEDIA, to educate themselves about Tori Amos whether they were a fan or not. Information on her albums are important, and each individual album has or should have its own seperate page with DETAILED information about itself which can be linked to the main Tori Amos page, and it is on those album pages where album artwork should be included. This article is called "Tori Amos" not "Tori Amos Albums".

I get your point. But then again, if the pics of the album covers confuses the reader I wonder what the actual INFORMATION of the albums does. I don't know about you, but each section of EACH ALBUM seems like independent information about a specific album, whereas pics are completely relevant. And about the pics being promotional? Get real, album covers and album information, album sales, that's pure information, it's up to us readers to take it in, in any way they see appropriate.84.217.180.226 15:23, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

About the smells like teen spirit cover i added this

Though Nirvana themselves didn’t care much for the cover, Nirvana drummer Dave Grohl has been quoted as saying "we used to play that before we’d go on, and then we’d come on dancing on stage like ballerinas, that’s about all it was worth to us"

don't belive me? i found it off an interview on this interview http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6X7LaAtYkqs at around 4mins 25secs

Gay?

Who put Tori in the gay icons section?

Tori is well known as a gay icon, from early in her career having discussed the fact that she started playing at gay bars when she was 14 years old and the fact that gay men taught her "how to become a woman". She is an avid supporter of gay rights; she has openly gay staff and has written songs specifically about gay topics ("Riot Poof"); it is common knowledge that she has a very large gay male fanbase. So the question would be - why are you asking?

Doesn't she have a lesbian following as well? Or am I confusing her with Sarah McLachlan?

Though she does have a lesbian following the concept of "lesbian icons" has not been as culturally established as that of "gay icons", IE: iconic figures who have a strong gay male following. Pacian 01:53, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

The phrase "Gay Icons" is regularly used to include people admire by gay women, it isnt "Gay Male Icons", after all. So it seems inclusive to me. --PRL1973 22:57, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Spurious Comment RE: Anthony Keides

Someone added the following under trivia:

"*Amos was rumored to have been in a relationship with Anthony Kiedis of Red Hot Chili Peppers and it is said that her song "Cloud on my Tongue" is about their story. Amos never confirmed that, but the rumors were enhanced by her often adding "he and you and she and we" as an epilogue at the end of live performances of 'Cloud on my Tongue'."

As a Tori Amos fan and obsessor for nearly 10 years I have never heard this rumour before even once; I can find no mention of it on ANY Tori Amos related website including the exhaustive compilation of articles published on Amos at the website www.yessaid.com - further Amos has stated that the song "Cloud on My Tongue" was about a confrontation she had with music industry individuals in the late 1980's after her debut album had bombed and they had mocked her to her face, and further that the term "Cloud on My Tongue" referred to the feeling of choking back tears in front of people one did not want to cry before. So I've removed this alleged "trivia" and if someone would like to cite a reference - ANY reference - as to it's validity, I'll reconsider.

This is the rumor's source...

Looking at that I don't really see any broad insinuation that she and Keidis were ever involved romantically. It seems like he made a pass at her and she refused. Pacian 01:54, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

Leona Naess

I can find no reference anywhere to Tori Amos and Leona Naess having worked on a project together of any kind, so I have reverted the text back to "Sandra Bernhard" as the two DID work on a project together. If someone would like to RE-add Naess I would appreciate a reference. Pacian 01:56, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

See this page on the Little Blue World fanzine site, in the "News" Section, for a reference to her collaboration with Naess:

http://www.little-blue-world.org/issues/v04/n01.html

For further corroborating details, refer to this page on The Dent:

http://www.thedent.com/more.php?id=1636_0_1_0_C

Tori produced and played keyboards on a new recording of Leona's song "Ballerina," but the track was never released.

Tori's Famous "Friends"

Because Tori Amos and Bjork appeared on the cover of Q Magazine together around 11 years ago (with PJ Harvey) people still seem to carry over the idea that the two are "close friends" - they are not. Tori has repeatedly said that though they are co-admirers of one another's work, they are not actually more than aquaintence friends. Tori *was* close with Michael Stipe, but again, in 1996, and she has stated in interviews that they have barely spoken in the past five or six years. Pacian 02:00, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

Native Heritage

What is Tori's native american heritage? I saw her name on the wikipedia list of native americans, and I was wondering what her tribe/affiliation is.

If you read the actual article, this question is answered in great detail, but the brief answer is Chrokee. Please sign your posts. Pacian 07:17, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Info about new song removed?

Hi, someone removed the information about the song "from the other side of the mountain" on October 10. If this is nonecyclopaedic, shouldn't it still be included in the touring info section?

Hi. Please sign your posts with four tildas (~) so that we know who you are. If you have not yet registered with wikipedia please do so. Musical artists are constantly performing new material at their sound checks and concerts; it is really not encyclopedic to list the titles of every song an artist has ever performed live one time. Until Amos releases this song on an album, it really doesn't warrant inclusion, and even then, on the album's page. Pacian 04:46, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

I have re-removed the comment about the "new song." Though I'm sure that she did tell a fan her 12 minute performance of that evening was a new song, this is not a credible citation for an encyclopedia. I could name a variety of untitled improvisations Amos has performed in the last 13 years that could have been "new songs" but were never released anywhere. Pacian 04:49, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

"Muhammed my friend"

From the article - "During this concert Amos performed her borderline blasphemous "Muhammed my friend" with her friend Maynard James Keenan of the band Tool."

Can someone write who it's blaspemous to? IIRC the song is about Jesus, but the title makes it sound like it is blasphemous to Muslims only(I suppose they would be offended too, though)?

I've revised it. First, calling it blasphemous expressed a POV. Secondly, it's hardly the only Amos song that might be considered blasphemous against Christianity - and not even the MOST blasphemous. The song is about Mary Magdelene and, to an extent, a female Jesus. Pacian 03:56, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Boys for Pele

"During this year she also co-wrote/performed a song called "It Might Hurt a Little Bit" with singer Michael Stipe of the band R.E.M.. It was intended for the soundtrack to the film Don Juan DeMarco but was not used and has never been released."

I'm quite perplexed by this entry. If the song has never been released, how does anybody know it exists? The fact it's described in such detail, including who she did it with and what it was intended for, must mean it was released in SOME unofficial form. Were there leaks or bootlegs? If so then it has been "released," just not officially, or by Tori herself. BronzeWarrior 11:56, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

The text in the article is accurate. It was never released, or even leaked in any capacity. Amos spoke about the fact that she was recording it during promotions for her Boys For Pele album, and footage of Amos and Stipe recording/rehearsing the song in-studio aired on a television news program. But after it was submitted to the film-makers, they rejected it in favour of a pop-friendly Bryan Adams tune, something that Amos further joked about onstage at concerts. Pacian 05:43, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Would this be fair?

Every artist has prior influences, as well as influence on subsequent artists, I think that is self-evident. If it is fair to say Tori Amos "is noteworthy as one of the few modern pop music stars to utilize a piano as her primary instrument and play piano rock, paving the way for subsequent commercially successful bands such as Coldplay and Keane" then perhaps it would also be fair to acknowledge, in this article, that Carole King "is noteworthy as one of the few modern pop music stars to utilize a piano as her primary instrument and play piano rock, paving the way for subsequent commercially successful performers such as Tori Amos." Or something. Agree? Aumakua 04:30, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't particularly see how Amos' use of piano in her albums has any relevance to the music of Keane or Coldplay; I more see the Carole King/Amos analogy, except King has always been better known as a songwriter of songs other people made famous. Ultimately I think it is only appropriate to draw correlations between artists if either artist has implicitly stated that an influence was made. Pacian 05:46, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Discography page?

Shouldn't we create a different page for Tori's discography (and link the page here), as for Gorillaz discography? I think it would improve article's readability, and it may also allow readers to read what they want immediately, without being forced to scroll down the whole article. In addition, the article would be surely thinner and faster to load... Think about it! --Emc² (Contact me ) 13:43, 20 March 2006 (UTC)


  • Wouldn't it be better if there wasn't the sales on the section too? The sales contridict what the article about her biography. It says that she has sold 12 million albums worldwide but the numbers don't add up down at the bottom. Also, on the RIAA website http://www.riaa.com says that Under the Pink and Little Earthquakes have been certified 2x platinum (2 million each), To Venus and Back, Boys for Pele and From the Chiorgirl Hotel at 1x platinum (1 million each), and Scarlet's Walk at Gold (500,000) in the United States alone. I don't know how to link it to the site, but under the gold and platinum searchable database http://www.riaa.com/gp/database/default.asp because when you type in Tori Amos, it will show the certifications for each album.

Jarrod1987 19:28, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I definitely agree on moving the discography information to its own page, although I think just the chart for the albums should be kept in this article in addition to being present in the discography page. Sam 23:17, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I went ahead with the move, but I left "Albums" on this article because it's appropriate here as a quick and accessible list of all her major records. Sam 17:23, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Does anyone dispute leaving the Albums here? I'm debating myself as to whether leave it or move it. On one hand, the reader who visits the Tori Amos article casually can see a concise and quick list of all her major albums. On the other there is a matter of text elegance and article size. Sam 16:55, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

"Far Too Gone"

I have removed the data included about the low-budget independant film "Far Too Gone". The film was made on what I would surmise to be a less than $1,000 budget. It has recieved no mainstream distribution or release. It has recieved absolutely no critical note or attention. The information included seemed to be little more than a plug by the film's director/star and a defense of it based on the assertion that fans of Amos don't like it. The movie is not noteworthy, and inclusion of its existance is not appropriate in this article. Pacian 05:45, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

I have removed this date for a second time. Pacian 23:04, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
I have now removed a THIRD inclusion of entry about this completely non-noteworthy film. Pacian 16:49, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

if you ever go to her concert

and sit anywhere close to the stage, you might just swear that she looks right at you, no, that she is singing right to you! and other people might just swear the same thing! its amazing. really.

This trick, well known to the LAPD, is achieved by looking and singing exactly between you and the other people.--SidiLemine 11:55, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Suggestions for improving this article

  • Split the discography out into a seperate article
  • Find a better photo - it looks like you searched for the ugliest photo of her in existence!
  • I'd lose "(Bösendorfer)" from the intro and mention it elsewhere. This is too much detail: the intro should provide a juicy overview/summary.

--kingboyk 22:04, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

"Hey Jupiter"

A while ago I heard that the seperate Hey Jupiter USA EP / single peaked in the Hot 100 at number 91. It's not in the single list. I don't know whether the information is accurate. ---Mansize

Gaiman/Amos

The Neil Gaiman and Tori Amos articles differ (in emphasis) at least - about how they became friends. 82.35.9.122 06:48, 19 July 2006 (UTC)


New album?

I think I've read somewhere she's working on it. Anybody has more information? May-hem 22:22, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Her new album is to be called Americal Doll Posse and will include a world tour starting on 28th May in Rome. I was about to update the wikipedia entry but had a little moment and someone had already done it in the time that I clicked the 'edit this page' link! MathewSanders 03:33, 21 February 2007 (UTC)


I had wanted to check "Shawn Amos" versus "Myra Ellen Amos".

< http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search/shawn_amos >.

I got:

You searched for shawn amos [Index]

Results 1-20 of 66 1 2 3 4 Next » 3 Needles | starring = Mabel AdamsShawn AshmoreCory BowlesStockard Channing ... the devil in order to survive a global epidemic. Shawn Ashmore stars as a Canadian porn star who conceal... Relevance: 10.2% - 1.8 kB (217 words) - 21:52, 18 July 2006 Vienna Teng ..., draws on the influences of artists such as Tori Amos and Sarah McLachlan. She has released two albums,... ... Wayne Brady Show, and opened for performances by Shawn Colvin, Joan Baez and Joan Osborne. Her debut al... Relevance: 5.9% - 2.3 kB (343 words) - 05:01, 22 July 2006 Billion Dollar Babies

  • Shawn Amos - editorial coordinator

Relevance: 5.0% - 3.7 kB (513 words) - 06:50, 22 July 2006

The historylog does not reflect the above.


Hopiakuta 00:01, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Another issue:

Should it be??:

In Amos's memoir Piece By Piece, her

band members also commented on how a whole new generation of fans have been seen coming to the shows. Now, they observed, the original fans's younger siblings are coming.


or??:

In Amos' memoir Piece By Piece, her band members also commented on how a whole new generation of fans have been seen coming to the shows. Now, they observed, the original fans' younger siblings are coming.


Furthermore, siblings are not much of an achievement.

Grandparent & grandchild, more significant.

!!!!

Hopiakuta 00:58, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Kate Bush

Should there not be somme mention of Kate Bush in this article (other than the reference via Kylie Minogue)? I don't know whether Amos was influenced to any degree by Bush, but there have certainly been many comparisons, and they share a similar vocal range etc etc.

I might look for possible sources, as Amos is bound to have been asked her opinion on Bush. --Mal 15:24, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

To what benefit though? Is her similarity to Bush (which is subjective) intrinsically important to knowing about her? What section would you put it under? I think it would take real creativity to add a section about Bush to the article as it stands now and have it not look sloppy. None of the current headers are appropriate, and adding a tiny one at the end would seem haphazard. I would avoid it unless (unbeknownst to me) this is a very important comparison. - BalthCat 22:24, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

I think its very much an objective opinion actually. They both produce similar genre of music, they both have a pretty good vocal range which they use in similar ways. I wasn't suggesting adding a section specifically regarding the similarities between Bush and Amos - just a passing note. If you look at music sites, under the "If you like x, you may also like y" or "People who downloaded x also downloaded y", you should find that Tori Amos and Kate Bush are often in each other's lists.

I've found a few websites so far in a very brief Google search, but none are appropriate I think because they appear to be basically internet debates which end up slagging one or other artist off. I consider it to be a reasonably important comparison because I've had few conversations about Tori Amos that haven't included Kate Bush in all honesty. --Mal 01:20, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Simple answer: if you find interesting citations, (ie, commentary by Tori, or by very noteworthy music magazine/critic), include it. Where is not that important, as it will find its place after a while. If not, please refrain. Best option if in doubt is probably to submit whole citation here and discuss. --SidiLemine 11:51, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to find a citation from a music/artist/album review (if not the lady herself). --Mal 01:20, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

There is no question that since the very beginning of her career Amos has been constantly compared with Kate Bush by music critics and the media - sometimes (but not always) in a negative way.
Published in 'Q' Magazine issue 140 May 1998. "I'll never forget the first time I heard about Kate," Amos recalls. "I was playing in a club, I was 18 or 19 and somebody came up to me, pointed their finger and said, Kate Bush. I went, Who's that? I wasn't really familiar because Kate didn't really happen in the States until Hounds Of Love. I was shocked because the last thing you want to hear is that you sound like someone else. Then people kept mentioning her name when they heard me sing, to the point where I finally went and got her records. When I first heard her, I went, Wow, she does things that I've never heard anybody do, much less me. But I could hear a resonance in the voice where you'd think we were distantly related or something." So you were never influenced directly by her? "Well... I must tell you that when I heard her, I was blown away by her. There's no question." Did you sing along with the records? "Absolutely. But I knew that I had to be careful, so I didn't voraciously learn her catalogue. I left the records with my boyfriend at the time, because I didn't want to copy her." - Tori Amos
I also agree with what the above person has mentioned (...since the very beginning...constantly compared with Kate...)
PS. I used to read an interview with Kate Bush where the interviewer asked a question about Tori. But I cannot find the page back. 125.162.3.41 06:29, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Found it!
This is part of an interview from Q magazine, the issue celebrating its 20th birthday:
Q: Who's your favourite artist of the last twenty years?
Kate Bush: I love Antony (Hegarty) of Antony & The Johnsons. I think he's brave and I like that. And I like...um...
Q: Tori Amos?
Kate Bush: [silence]
Q: Just joking
Kate Bush: [laughs] I took a deep breath there. Can I just say Rolf Harris and leave it at that? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 125.162.3.41 (talk) 07:06, 17 December 2006 (UTC).

The section regarding her perceived similarities to Kate Bush feels like it was tacked on as an after-thought. The section discusses Amos's childhood and adolescence and then sidetracks to a paragraph devoted to someone else. Would anyone oppose removing it? Sam 16:35, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes - I very much object to your removal of my addition, and I'm finding it and placing it back in. Comparisons with other artists aren't as relevant as a comparison with Kate Bush. --Mal 00:32, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
I also really think there should be mention of Kate Bush, and despite the discussion so far it doesn't look like there currently is anything in the article. I looked in the history and that wasn't a great placement nor a very detailed paragraph, but it should be in there somewhere. No one has more references? --Galaxiaad 07:15, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Even if such a section is appropriate, where would it go without just being put anywhere? I don't think it should go under her biography because the biography is supposed to be about her, not someone's perceived similarities with someone else. Amos could be compared to a lot of people (Amy Lee, Natalie Merchant, maybe even Bjork), but I think it just isn't relevant. — Sam 13:42, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

new photo

The new photo looks nice, but the license is not so good. Wikipedia:Image use policy#Fair use considerations says, "As a general rule of thumb, Wikipedia allows low-resolution images of copyrighted material if they are unlikely to affect the potential market for the material, are used for the purposes of analysis or criticism, and for which there is no alternative, non- or free-copyrighted replacement available". The problem is that in this case, there is a GDFL photo available. Saying that the new one is "better" is a pretty subjective opinion (frankly, I like them both), while saying that the old one is better-licensed is inarguable. Do subjective and POV aesthetics really outweigh Wikipolicy here? (This is an honest question; I know that there can be a fair amount of leeway in such things.)

Looking further: Wikipedia:Fair use#Policy says that "fair use" material can only be used if (among other things), "No free equivalent is available or could be created that would adequately give the same information". I'd say that it's pretty clear that the new image has to go, and the old image has to come back. But I'll give people an opportunity to yell at me explain how I'm wrong before taking action.  :) Xtifr tälk 04:53, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

You're perfectly right about policy. But the previous one is, well, not exactly what she looks like on most album covers, so maybe it's not very representative :). I think there defeinitely is an aesthetics (limited) consensus here. The morale is: we need a well-licenced GFDL picture that looks like a promotional one.--SidiLemine 11:40, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
The old one was lacking in a lot of areas, IMO, and others have brought it up (see the "photo" discussion above). The old photo was small, making it difficult to scale. In the infobox, a picture looks pretty good at 250px, and the old photo wasn't even that large. The only thing I can think of that would work under the terms would be the album cover for "Tales of a Librarian", maybe? She doesn't look that normal there either, though. Meh, it's times like these I hate copyright. Sam 12:39, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Ok, ok, sorry, justifiable dismay noted, but as no valid objections to the policy issue have been raised, I'm going to restore the old image, quick before people get too used to the new one. Xtifr tälk 01:29, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Sorry about that. How about a nice, clear screenshot from one of her music videos? A nice still of her on the white piano in "Crucify" would look great, for example. It'd be ok since it was a music video, right? Sam 02:22, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

No, that would also be a copyrighted, unlicensed, fair-use image, sorry. Unless you know of a PD or CC video she's done. :) Xtifr tälk 23:49, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Razor from Maniac Manson

Razor is not based on Tori's 80's career. Its based on the punk rock girlfriend of a producer of the game, and was made before she was even touring lounges as a youth. The statement in Fans has been edited out.

Miscarriage, etc.

In Piece by Piece (pgs 158-162), Tori asserts that she narrowly missed having her fallopian tubes removed unnecessarily by an ill-intending doctor. The article doesn't mention this, though; just about her miscarriages. Any reason why? Sam 01:23, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

A question of Tori

I would like to ask you guys that does anybody know thay Tori has blood relationship with "Ireland"?

Curious from her song "Ireland".. and her mysterious soul :)

thanks ! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mycupid (talk • contribs) 04:49, 1 March 2007 (UTC).

Terri Amos?

Do many people get confused between Tori and Terri Amos? Personally, I've never heard of Terri Amos, and I don't think that little bit at the top "not to be confused with" is necessary.82.5.94.8 22:01, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. I certainly had never heard of her, and this link seems to be a way to promote the lesser-known Terri Amos. --Jrsharp 21:50, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I've removed the "Terri Amos" bit at the top, I think it's unnecessary.CharlieWaters 01:41, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Picture Change?

Are we allowed to change the Tori photo? Fans have complained about it on one of the Tori forums I frequent, and personally, I don't think it's all that flattering. Tryingtoevolve 02:57, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

It's a matter of copyright. I don't think anyone likes the photo much but it's licensed for Wikipedia to use freely, unlike commercial photographs of her that can only be used in restricted ways. It's not Wikipedia's fault the photo is unflattering; it's just trying to avoid legal conflict. — Sam 03:24, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
I have done a search on Flickr.com for freely licensed photos. Consider these:
Alrighty, turns out the first picture was already uploaded in the Wikimedia Commons. I've gone ahead and replaced it. — Sam 06:19, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Hello, upskirt shot! ^_^ JuJube 07:53, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Heh, that isn't a concern, is it? I just chose that image because it was probably the best of the three (IMO) and it was already uploaded and tagged in the Commons. It's not set in stone, so if you feel it isn't appropriate we can find a better one or crop it or something. ;) — Sam 15:07, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
From a photographer's perspective, that's not much if any improvement.. curse licensing and all. Perhaps an enterprising fan can request the rights to a good photo? --Auto(talk / contribs) 00:44, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Oy. :/ There are some fan photos over at thedent.com in the "Ears with Feet" photo album. The hi-res ones might work. I'm sure fans would be genuinely ecstatic if their photo were posted here.Tryingtoevolve 06:04, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

As long as they own the copyright to the photographs and license them freely (I recommend Creative Commons, although they can choose from a number of them), that will be fine. — Sam 15:12, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

What is so wrong with the Dew Drop Inn tour image? I think it's quite a bit better than the one that recently replaced it. — Sam 22:05, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Posse Blogs.

Article says:

"Within a couple weeks, the confirmed blogs were as follows: Clyde; [9], Isabel;[10], Pip; [11],Santa; [12], and Tori; [13]."

ToriAmos.com [her offical site] only confirms two of these blogs. Why are all listed as confirmed? SummonerMarc

Thanks :) Marc 03:43, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

American Doll Posse picture?

Can someone edit the picture in the 'American Doll Posse' section - it's not the album cover, its the cover for the single 'Big Wheel'. CharlieWaters 22:22, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Done. Thanks. Sunray 22:38, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

ATTENTION TORI AMOS FANS COMING HERE TO EDIT

Welcome Tori Amos fans to Wikipedia! PLEASE take a moment to aquaint yourself with wikipedia policy before making edits to this article. It is not uncommon for fans of an artist, especially one with a devoted following like Amos, to want to insert statements in articles that violate our policy against having a point of view. Because Wikipedia is an ENCYCLOPEDIA, all articles must maintain a NEUTRAL POINT OF VIEW. I have noticed that non-neutral comments and adjustments are frequently being made to this article. Please take a moment to conisder your edit and phrasing choice before making your edit.

Here is an example of a NOT NEUTRAL comment that was in the article:

"Tori Amos' fan base began building as soon as her first solo album was released. The tour to promote that album, Little Earthquakes, stunned audiences all over the world, and left them wanting more."

Obviously it cannot be factually proven that audiences were "left wanting more", or that they were "stunned" all over the world. Though the point thie editer was trying to express - that Tori Amos' debut album had an instant impact and that her tour was very popular and appreciated - should be made citing FACTS, such as number of tour dates, ticket sales or album sales figures. The distinction is vital.

Again, welcome to Wikipedia, and I sincerely hope you can become a frequent and valuable participant! Pacian 11:16, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

What can you do to improve this article?

Despite my own personal love for this article, my feeling as an experienced wikipedian is that it has gotten out of control. Though I love Tori passionately, her article is longer and more extensive than articles about artists like Michael Jackson, who inarguably has had a more extensive and widespread impact on popular culture.

If you would like to help IMPROVE Tori's presence here on wikipedia, these are a few suggestions for things to get cracking on:

An entry on an individual artist really should not have extensive information about all of their projects. That is what sub-entries are for! We have a very healthy and ongoing music album project here on wikipedia; most of the information in all of these individual album sections really should be moved into the appropriate album pages, and there should be a breif 3-5 paragraph section that discusses ALL of Amos' musical albums with wikied links to the album pages.
The content that *is* in this page needs to be sorted through and rearranged. If you're going to have a section that talks about tours, there shouldn't be information about tours in other parts of the article, and so forth. Do some sorting!
Quotes do not belong in entires on wikipedia. There is a seperate wiki called wikiquote (www.wikiquote.org) that has a healthy Tori Amos section. Add your quotes there - and SOURCE THEM!
The trivia section is pushing it. Though it has not been explicitly declared that trivia sections don't belong, it is the general concensus that they are not encyclopedic. If something is important enough in someone's biography to be included in an entry, there should be a way to work it into the actual article. Otherwise it does not belong in the entry at all.

If you have any questions, do not hesitate to make a comment in my user page. Let's work together to make this article awesome without breaking the rules or muddying it up. Pacian 11:47, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

This article is also in need of citations. It's full of a lot of great information but very little of it is actually backed up. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citing_sources for information. Sam 20:18, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
03:27, 13 August 2007 (UTC) This article contains statements that are unsourced and also POV. for example, Tori and Neil Gaiman stealing shamelessly from each other - that quote is unsourced. multiple other quotes are unsourced. as are references to Tori's artistic influences such as Georgia O'Keefe.
It also shows POV in statements such as the one about Tori being one of the world's top touring artists and her tours routinely selling out.
also, this article is misleading. Tori has lost a lot of popularity since The Beekeeper. Her latest album has sold something in the neighborhood of 50,000 copies worldwide, according to the Tori discussion at atforumz.
finally, this article to me gives the impression that wikipedia is the place for committed Tori fans to express their views, rather than any objective look. I know it's impossible to be completely objective about any artist, but her every project is detailed - compare to artists like The Beatles whose far more influential work gets skimmed over. This article comes across to me as OTT, but that's just my opinion.
Mary Katherine

--Seriously, someone should just take the time to go through and completely rewrite it in proper encyclopedic style removing all the unnecessary personal details and post it here in the talk section for a while as nothing major seems to be happening to this article very quickly. I will do this when I'm simultaneously bored enough and have enough time (possibly within a week). Either that or post an article plan outlining what people think are the major and minor topics that need to be covered...

How, for instance, is "Miscarriages and Marriages" part of Tori's career? This just highlights the over-persanalised content of this article. Admittedly Tori has been very frugal in divulging many details of her personal life, and arguably this has worked well for her success and carving out her persona in a tough/competitive music world, but someone who visits this site and doesn't know who Tori Amos is will want to know the basic facts not coloured by fan frenzied hysteria.Simonmetcalf (talk) 01:26, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, I suppose the question should be: should this be a biography that is entirely career centric and ignores everything that is not directly related to her musical career, or should it be a more well-rounded exposition of significant events in her life, regardless of context? I don't know if it would be possible (or even desirable) to cut out the personal details, particularly since both worlds are so intertwined and significant personal life events have so much driving force in her work, i.e., rape and Me and a Gun, miscarriage and Boys for Pele/Choirgirl, "jumping ship" and addressing social issues and American Doll Posse — and the list goes on. Since when are important life events in a biography considered "fan frenzied hysteria"? Samuel Grant (talk) 05:50, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
"How, for instance, is "Miscarriages and Marriages" part of Tori's career?" If this information had been included in the discography article, I could understand your asking this question, but this is a biography about a PERSON who is a musician, so doesn't it stand to reason that the article is about the life of the PERSON insofar as it is relevant to her career as a musician? Over a year ago, this article predominately filled with info on her albums (with each album having a section devoted to it), but those of us who have been working on this article felt that since this is a biography, it should involve the life of the person and not just the releases he/she has had throughout their career. The article traces the life of Tori Amos and is broken into periods that reflect changes in her life that affect her as a musician.
Rising to fame, undergoing miscarriages, getting married, changing labels, going independent are all major events that shape the musician's life and work. I think that in its current version, this article is far from "fan frenzied hysteria".--Pisceandreams (talk) 19:10, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Classically trained

wondering if it's a good idea to describe Tori Amos as "classically trained" when she got "kicked out" of the Peabody Conservatory because she refused to play the classical music the "right way," and to this day can't read sheet music (i'm pretty sure she's mentioned this all in multiple interviews). Thoughts? Ansate 17:38, 4 May 2004 (UTC)

Not sure where you're getting your info, but it's completely incorrect. Firstly, she WAS classically trained, as the youngest person admitted into the Peabody conservatory, where she was a student for several years (and she continued to recieve training after her ejection.) There was never a time when Tori Amos COULDN'T read sheet music; she simply didn't want to do it during her time at the Peabody (in favor of instead ignoring the sheet music and doing her own interpretations.) This was WHY she was ejected from Peabody, and also why her 1988 album was called "Y Kant Tori Read" - it was a joke. And she most certainally CAN read sheet music to this day, nor has she EVER stated otherwise in an interview. (visit the web site "Yes, Said" for an extensive archive of Tori Amos articles over the past 14 years.) 66.157.60.114 23:43, 31 May 2004 (UTC)
She wasn't ejected from Peabody. Her scholarship wasn't renewed. This is a slight, but significant difference. (cf. The Washington Post, March 22, 1992) --Moonriddengirl 16:14, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
That isn't a slight but significant difference. It's absolutely not the same thing. Peabody has never "kicked anyone out". If you decide not to pay to go you are "not going to the school" - you haven't been "kicked out". Furthermore, Tori Amos did not go to Peabody (implying the Peabody Conservatory) - she went to the Peabody Preparatory Department. This is another "slight but significant difference" and it is misleading to say Peabody when you mean Peabody Prep. A LOT of people have gone to the Peabody Prep. and some of them have started as young as age 3. Peabody Conservatory is a secondary institution that doesn't accept children - much less children who won't read music. Even Sara Chang went to the Juilliard Preparatory department when she was a child - not the Juilliard School. All of her biographical information makes that distinction clearly. The question is, why would Tori Amos' publicists mislead people this way? It is naive, disrespectful, and shows clearly that she is not a "classically trained" musician since she doesn't seem to understand what that would actually entail. It would entail a lot more than a few years at the Peabody Preparatory Department. And the argument that she "can most certainly read sheet music" also shows a certain naivete. Classical musicians don't read "sheet music". They read music - "sheet music" is a term used in pop music.

Patty Thomas (talk) 21:54, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

== Tori wasn't kicked out of PEabody == 70.24.143.121 (talk) 17:44, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

The page has at least added "preparatory department" to the Peabody claims but it still needs to correct the scholarship thing. It should read "her scholarship was not renewed and she chose not to return", because that is what happened. She was NOT asked to leave. She could have taken lessons or classes there at any time. I don't know if she couldn't find someone to teach her pop and rock music but there are actually teachers in the prep department that would do that. You have to make the effort to find them and you have to be willing to pay them. You also have to be willing to read music even if you are working on improvising. That's like saying that you want to take a creative writing class but you aren't going to read anything for it. I certainly wouldn't be able to teach either kind of class. You'd have to look pretty far to find someone who would. The best jazz players and teachers (Oscar Peterson comes to mind as someone who did teach when he was alive) would have laughed at anyone who thought they didn't need to read music to learn their craft. She is not classically trained. That takes a lot more than a few years at the Peabody Preparatory Department when you're a child. None of this takes away from her talents. But she is what she is. If she thinks she needs legitimacy by claiming classical training then she is the snob - not the classical musicians that she perceives as being the snobs. Peabody Preparatory Department DOES have classes in jazz and improvisation. They did not "kick her out" or "ask her to leave" because of her interest in rock and pop. Peabody Prep. does not kick students out and it is not full of snobbish teachers of classical music only. It's a music institution. You should just leave that stuff out because it shows the ignorance of Amos' publicists more than it proves her to be an "elite" musician. It also isn't fair to the people who teach and learn at the Institute.

Her scholarship simply wasn't renewed...remember the Amos' weren't rich.

  • Which is tantamount to being ejected/kicked-out. If she had opted to pay her own way she still would not have been allowed back in because they decided she was not following the curriculum.
    • Er, not paying to come back another year is usually called "dropping out" of a school, not "being kicked out". Sounds like more of a play for 'edgy cool' to say she was kicked out, if she just quit. It being mutual doesn't change it.

Patty Thomas (talk) 22:49, 5 August 2008 (UTC)If she had opted to pay her own way she most certainly would have been let back in. Peabody is very generous with its scholarships for the Preparatory Department. They are usually given more because of financial need than for any other reason. But they are never indefinite. I went there on one for several years and one was also given to my younger sister. But neither one of us kept the scholarship indefinitely. Some years we had one - some years we didn't. They were nothing if not fair about it and always tried to spread out the financial help as far as possible to the whole population. We never even considered it as "losing" a scholarship when it wasn't renewed. We just applied again the next semester or year and sometimes we got one and sometimes we didn't - depending on what was available. Tori Amos was not kicked out of Peabody - and as I said elsewhere - she didn't actually go to "Peabody", she went to the Peabody Preparatory Department of the school. Many Universities have such schools. Indianna University and Oberlin College to name only two. But to say that you attended Indianna University when you actually studied music in their Pre-College School is not correct. Neither is saying that you went to "Peabody" at the age of five and were the youngest ever to have done so. She went to Peabody Prep and was not the youngest ever to have attended the Pre-College School.

Way too long

Here we have a perfect example of fans adding way too much information that is not important enough for a general encyclopedia. Enough already, in summary: she makes ugly girls feel pretty and makes pretty girls feel like they have as good personality as ugly girls. What other artist gets 3 or 4 paragraphs for every work they did? 12.41.40.20 19:15, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah,some of the article could use a trim. I'll probably get around to going through a lot of it if no one else does. Sam 20:02, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
Artists about whom there is a great wealth of information. Tori Amos talks a lot more than most about her creative process and all of that malarkey. I'm not even saying I like it, because I think it makes her sound like a horse's ass. If every artist did, I'd say it was appropriate to include it in their pages, too. The size as it is now is just right, I'd say. Womanhood 17:58, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Good lord, will someone please trim this article down?? There is no good reason to include this much information in an entry for any musician. The overabundance of personal details in this article make it virtually unreadable. Wikipedia is not a fan site. Cut the fat from the article and link to other sites that people can visit if they want to know what color of underwear Tori wears on Mondays. Seriously, people. Get a grip. If I knew much about her, I'd do it myself. Someone with extensive knowledge of her career needs to buckle down and get this done. Darth Twit (talk) 09:02, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
What should be removed? I don't feel like it's too long. This article is a biography, too, after all. Back when this discussion was started I would agree, but since then quite a bit of "fat" has been trimmed and I see nothing majorly wrong with its length now — yes, lingering fanaticism here and there should be removed or put on a more specific page, but overall I think it's a good, detailed account of her work and life. Samuel Grant (talk) 13:47, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
As I said earlier, I'm not a fan (not to say that I dislike her, I simply don't know much about her) so the decisions on what should be cut would most effectively be made by someone who knows more about her. The amount of detail contained in the article would be considered obsessive by just about anyone not attached to Tori. Per Wikipedia, "Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information...merely being true, or even verifiable, does not automatically make something suitable for inclusion in the encyclopedia."
For starters, the volumes of detailed information on each album belong on that specific album's entry. Details of every minute she spent in the studio or the personal struggles she had while trying to record the album do not belong here. They're already documented on each album's page. Including it here is redundant and only contributes to the mess that is this page. Information about specific songs does not belong here. Place it on the relevant album's page, if it's not there already, unless of course a song had some profound effect on her career, in which case it has reason to be here. And don't even get me started on the countless unsourced statements. This article is riddled with "facts" without any citation whatsoever.
Not being a fan, I am undoubtedly in the minority here, however there surely must be some fan out there who can look at the article with a bit of objectivity and realize that it needs some major work. Darth Twit (talk) 17:06, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
I think you're exaggerating the issue a bit. I personally went through this article in 2006/2007 and removed quite a bit of extraneous information. Other editors have done the same. The article is not perfect by any means, no, but the issue is not so glaring to me.
Anonymous editors have a tendency to re-add material that registered editors have deemed as fanatical and over-specific, so over time the work to trim prose down to genuinely important details gets undone. So, yes, I agree there is a problem of over-zealousness, and that along with other issues such as unsourced statements need to be dealt with, but in my opinion it's not with as much scale as you suggest. Samuel Grant (talk) 18:24, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
What "issue" am I exaggerating? I appreciate the dialog here, but you seem to have ignored or glanced over the things needing attention that I mentioned. Details about specific songs that didn't have a significant impact on her career have no place here. Place them in the relevant album's entry. Also, going through and either deleting all of the unsourced statements or adding citations could take days. When you dive into areas of rape, miscarriages, personal relationships, and business matters, you had best find a citation! If you truly removed that much two years ago, I cringe to think what this article must have looked like. Darth Twit (talk) 22:40, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
The issue of length. I'm saying I don't feel it's as bad as you do. A problem, yes, but not a terribly overt one that makes the article unpresentable. For discussions on the past removals, see #Proposed deletions where it was decided to do away with five sections, one of which has since been restored.
I completely agree, however, on lack of sources. That's another thing I've been trying to fix and have plans to improve in the near future. Perhaps other editors can pull out their Amos biographies and reference some things, many of which are common knowledge among the fanbase but need sources nonetheless. Samuel Grant (talk) 13:46, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Attempt at weeding out the link spam

When this article popped up on my watch list again because someone added yet another dubious external link to it, I decided to be bold and slash the spam. Below you'll find the original list of external links and my rationale for deleting or keeping each of them. Obviously irate fansite maintainers will pursue me with pitchforks as a result, so feel free to discuss and correct my "mistakes". --Plek 19:21, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

I was actually just about to do this... weird! The only removal I question is that of hereinmyhead. The site is quite extensive and is still being updated. Sam 19:31, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Yes, hence the remark about correcting my mistakes. I'm not an active reader of Tori's fansites so I'll leave it to those more knowledgable to decide which sites to restore. I'd say that links to the two most active ones should be sufficient (most contain links to other fansites, so interested readers should find their way eventually). --Plek 19:42, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

--You can never delete TheDent.com. It is not 'stale.' It is the largest Tori site out there with pages and pages of information ranging from lyrics to a biography to every single documented "Tori Sighting" out there. You just have to know how to navigate it. It has everything all of her other fansites have, combined. Just had to say it. :P

I really think you should add The Dent again. It is the largest archive of Tori info period. Also, Undented is often updated with new info, even before some of the official ones. Also, if you want a forum up, FeelTheWord/AusTori is extremely up to date and busy, exceeding 100,000 posts in the few months it's been open. (Many regular members have migrated there from yessaid, which has slowed down a bit since.)

I think you should add Hereinmyhead.com back in. It renders fine for me and I use Firefox. Perhaps it's your version or something? xD Summoner Marc 22:05, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the addition of the couple of fansites mentioned here. Some of them offer an immense amount of information. I'm going to re-add a few of the most extensive. — Sam 16:15, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Mention of Rape

I couldn't help noticing that the Little Earthquakes section lists (among other subjects covered in the album) "her rape". This is puzzling -- although I remember hearing something along those lines years ago -- because there is no mention of any rape elsewhere in the article. Maybe it was added and then deleted at some point in the past (I don't know) but I think it should be mentioned/explained in her biography -- considering "her rape" is referred to in such an offhand manner while discussing Little Earthquakes. Lontano 04:28, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Under the Y Kan't Tori Read section it mentions her sexual assault. Sam 05:03, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Okay. Thank you. I'm going to edit the LE reference ("her rape") to "her 1985 rape". It sounds too blasé otherwise. Thanks again. Lontano 06:45, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
I would suggest replacing the term 'rape' with sexual assault, as used earlier in the article. The reports of the incident have always been rather ambiguous, and while no one contests that she was indeed sexually assaulted, the act of rape is merely speculation. While I am sure that there are probably quotes out there from Amos referring to it as 'rape' there have also been quotes from her where she has referred to is as a near- or almost- rape. This would indicate sexual assault. By definition, rape requires actual intercourse where sexual assault does not. Anyone agree or disagree with this? SJM 31 January 2007

I was actually going to include that reasoning into my previous reply. What actually happened isn't clear, and from what I've read from a couple of sources it wasn't actually rape, but the threat of rape/close to forced sexual intercourse. Sam 22:31, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

There is more information here. Sam 04:14, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
Good work with all that. My initial confusion was partly due to the fact that its main mention was as "sexual assault" yet was mentioned later (in the album section) as "her rape"; so I hadn't been able to (ctrl+f) find the main mention. "Sexual assault" is a better term for it, I guess, according to that page you linked. The word "rape" without context didn't feel right at all. Lontano 08:40, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
I noticed that there was a still a mention of her 'rape' in this article, and my research suggests that she was never raped, so I replaced it with 'sexually assaulted'.Darkcraft (talk) 03:53, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Proposed deletions

In the light of the recent concerns of the article becoming too large, I'd like to propose a few deletions:

  • "Fans" section - It really doesn't contain any substantial information save the bits about fanzines, and, of course, the claims of celebrity fans is not only unsourced but largely subjective. It would be better touched on in a sentence or two in a place like the introduction.
  • "Books by or about Amos" - the large part of these are sheet music folios. Notable enough? Seems kind of obsessive to me.
  • "Conflict with the music industry" - another example of something that should be lightly touched on elsewhere, not devoted a whole section to. — Sam 00:10, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
I agree with those. The first two are completely unnecessary, and the third would be credible if it were sourced, but its not. As it stands, it is a borderline violation of WP:BLP. --Mus Musculus 01:13, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
I agree too for those same reasons. Summoner Marc 03:18, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I've removed "Fans" and the "Books" sections. "Conflict with the music industry" is a bit hairier and I would like to wait to give more people a chance of discussing it before its removal. New proposals:

  • "Acting" - Amos has appeared once as a real character in a movie, the big-band singer in Mona Lisa Smile. The rest of the section just talks about roles that were offered to her or tiny appearances in less notable productions, and her contributions to movies' soundtracks are of course not acting.
  • Grammy Awards - she hasn't actually won any Grammy awards, these are just nominations. — Sam 15:56, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

The Grammy is so respected in the music industry that the nomination is notable in and of itself. I have heard in several other venues the nomination mentioned so I feel that this portion should stay as listedPoeticvirgo (talk) 18:56, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

I think removing the acting section is good but I don't think it shouldn't go without mention elsewhere in the article. I believe it's worthy of note, but not of it's own section. Perhaps if you were to delete it you could work it in else where? :) Summoner Marc 18:20, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that is something I am concerned with. We can reuse the picture and add a mention of her role in Mona Lisa Smile to the relevant time period. Same goes with notable information in the already deleted sections. I plan on adding a mention of the fanzines as soon as I can find a reliable source of information for them as it was just about the only bit worth salvaging in the two deleted sections. — Sam 18:44, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I've removed "Conflict with the music industry". The conflict is already touched on in the "To Venus and Back" and "Strange Little Girls" sections, so it doesn't go without any mention. — Sam 13:29, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Grammies - why are they mentioned?

If I am reading the Grammy section correctly, Amos has been nominated multiple times but never won a Grammy. To me it truly seems excessive to list this. Contrast Paul Simon's Wikipedia page. He has won multiple Grammies, yet they have parenthetical mention in the article. They are not stressed the way Amos's *nominations* are.

I suggest deleting the Grammy section. At most, it seems sufficient to state that she has been nominated several times but not won any.

It seems skewed to list these unless someone is going to go through and list all Grammy nominations for famous musicians like Simon.

70.22.47.252 22:34, 5 May 2007 (UTC)Mary Katherine

Fourth sentence incoherent

"Amos was at the forefront of a number of female singer-songwriters in the early 1990s"

What does this mean? 193.51.83.2 13:42, 7 May 2007 (UTC)Paul

It means she was an important figure in the female music scene in the early 1990s. How is it incoherent? — Sam 19:32, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Image Qeueing

Hi, I'm not sure if image qeueing is still being used on the wp, but these images have just become available at the Commons:

  • As Pip
    As Pip
  • As Tori
    As Tori

Anrie 08:22, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Very cool, thanks for pointing this out. These will be great additions to the various relevant pages. – Sam 14:07, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Another Tori pic available at Commons...

Tori Amos, performing on two different pianos simultaneously during the 2005 Glastonbury festival.

- Anrie 19:51, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Just arrived today: Image:Tori Amos 2 pianos.jpg.

Outline Overhaul

The main outline was in poor shape. As it was, there was "Biography" with only one subheading called "Early years" and then it launched into different section titled "Albums". Outlines shouldn't have only 1 subsection, if it does then that means it needs tweaking because the idea of subsections is to categorize the different points that fall under a main section. For example: if you have a section titled "Birds" and a subsection titled "Types of Birds" and then another section titled "Fish" and subsections titled "Saltwater Fish," "Freshwater Fish," "Tropical Fish," and "Brackish Fish" then the single "Types of Birds" subsection needs to be rearranged and included as part of "Birds", or split into more specific subsections.

With the goddess Tori's page, I kept the main heading as "Biography" and made "Early Years", "Y Kant Tori Read" and then a new subsection called "Solo Career" all fall under the "Biography" section. Then within the "Solo Career" subsection, all of the albums and what not became sub-subsections. I didn't see the point in having a section called "Albums" when a section titled "Discography" appears further down.

I also roped "CD singles", "Discography" and "Videography" together for the same reason as above.

I hope this makes sense and that people realize I'm not trying to mess with the page or anything. Please share your thoughts. --Pisceandreams 16:52, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

I like this approach, however there were concerns brought up in the past that biography information should be separated from album information which is why "Early years" was under "Biography". I don't know how that stands in terms of Wikipedia guidelines, but it's something to consider. Also, I think it would be a good idea to keep headings from going beyond the second level just for the sake of aesthetics; third-level headings are a bit more difficult to distinguish than second. Samuel Grant 21:22, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
I see your point, Samuel Grant. Since no one has changed the outline as of yet (2 months later), perhaps it's OK as is? Also, the subsections for the albums talk about things other than the albums, so maybe we are within the guidelines here. --Pisceandreams 21:20, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
I've been thinking about outline headings and realize that there doesn't necessarily need to be one entitled "Biography" since it's understood that this is about the artist. I think the overall quality and organization of the article could be improved by having fewer sub-sections, which can be accomplished by lumping some albums together, as opposed to each album having its own section. After all, detailed album information can appear in the individual albums' articles. --Pisceandreams 13:56, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

hopefully this helps.....

there it is.... (moved from the article; inactive, and messy....) Purples 03:20, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Cannibal Corpse

Hey everyone, it's been around the internet for a while, but I'm wondering, did Tori Amos in fact offer her voice upon the song "Stripped, Raped, And Strangled" by Cannibal Corpse? Or was this a clever edit job done by some internet prankster? Just in case those I inquire to aren't familiar with it, the song begins with Tori advertising RAINN, before going into the song. Throughout the song, you hear her sampled later. I'm just wondering if this is actually her, or perhaps, sampling by someone with an odd sense of humor. —Preceding unsigned comment added by CrowleyHead (talk • contribs) 02:08, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
It is my understanding that the mp3 is a product of the internet, and has no official affiliation with either. Often it is a mislabeled mp3 in most p2p download platformsPoeticvirgo (talk) 18:47, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Trent Reznor

Did Tori Amos dated Trent Reznor from Nine Inch Nails? I heard she did. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.39.124.31 (talk) 14:01, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

She's rumored to have. There are various things in some of her music that can be taken as references to him, particularly in "Caught a Lite Sneeze" on her album Boys for Pele: "Caught a lite sneeze / Dreamed a little dream / Made my own pretty hate machine", Pretty Hate Machine being an album by Nine Inch Nails. A quick Google brings up some more in-depth information. Samuel Grant 02:50, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Trent sang backup in "Past the Mission". IIRC, though, she referred to him as a little brother kind of person once. But I don't remember particulars. JuJube 03:04, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Regional style

Currently the article is in British style. Since Amos has an association by birth and long-time residence to the United States, I'd like to propose a switch to American style. Samuel Grant 22:53, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

I think the argument could be made either way, considering she lives in the U.K. now, but I do agree with you Samuel Grant that this could be switched to American style. Maybe we should see if anyone else has anything to say about it? --Pisceandreams 21:22, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

article on Tori vs. articles on Tori's albums

I am a sincere fan of Tori's (have been for 10+ years), but I think the article on Tori could use some re-working (and serious editing). Given that the articles devoted to each of her albums are lacking in many respects, what do you guys think about removing some of the info on her albums from this main article to use in the album articles? I think an article on Tori would be better if not broken down by album. Any thoughts? --Pisceandreams 21:19, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I've begun trimming this article and moving information specifically about Tori's albums to the respective album article. Information about different periods of Tori's life can be added to this article, but try to limit album info in this article.--Pisceandreams 02:25, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
I agree completely. This article is meant to be a general outline and should not be rife with extraneous details that are more appropriate on a more specific article. Samuel Grant 02:51, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Early utilization of the internet

I think that Amos' early utilization of the internet as a major marketing tool is a pertinent and relevant issue of interest for the article. Amos is the first major-label artist in global history who made a song (in this case "Caught a Lite Sneeze") available to be downloaded for free on the internet. Later, she was the first artist to release a CD that could be used as a "key" to unlock content available exclusively on the web. And there seems to historically have been an unusual amount of emphasis (by the press) put on her internet following; in particular a review of archives of press articles/interviews from 1991-1996 make almost constant reference to the huge number of fan web pages that existed. TheGoonSquad 07:59, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree, TheGoonSquad, that this needs to be mentioned, but perhaps only minimally here. The details can be saved for specific album article pages. I have some sources regarding this to include in the Boys for Pele article, as soon as I get a change to add/organize it.--Pisceandreams (talk) 20:27, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Abbreviated American Doll Posse Information

I really think that the fact that Amos opened the tour as characters from her album (and basically broke her own tour boundaries by singing straight at the mic and inclooding online bootlegs) should be mentioned briefly in that section of the article.

The Original Sinsuality/Summer Of Sin section includes a bit about her doing covers (which isn't extremely odd because she's always done a lot of covers) so I don't see why the doll changing bit shouldn't be included in the ADP Tour section because it's a BIG part of what the tour was.

I'm just afraid to add it because I'll feel sad if it's deleted. Meh, I'll add it anyway and if you don't like it you can do what you want right?

Sixthcrusifix (talk) 14:01, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I see your point, Sixthcrusifix, and while this is pertinent information, such specific information should be included in the American Doll Posse article, not here. (See the "article on Tori vs. articles on Tori's albums" section above) --Pisceandreams (talk) 19:27, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
I think this nicely sums it up: "Amos opened each show dressed as one of the four non-Tori personae from the album, then Amos would emerge as herself to perform for the remaining two-thirds of the show." More specific info can be added to the tour section of the American Doll Posse article. --Pisceandreams (talk) 13:34, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Kate Bush relevancy

It has been quite some time since the passage on Kate Bush was added and debated over, and I still see absolutely no relevancy in its presence. Whether or not Tori Amos has some similarities to Kate Bush is not up to the article to decide and really it holds no relevancy to her biography. At most it deserves a listing in the see also, but even that is insulting to Amos in my opinion. She may have gotten compared to her early in her career, but she definitely has distinguished herself from any such comparisons in the past nearly twenty years of her career. Let us please remove it. Samuel Grant (talk) 03:45, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I also don't think it's fair to lump that paragraph involving Kate in at the end of that section either. Tori was influenced by Zeppelin, not Bush. She listened to Jimi Hendrix. And only her voice on Little Earthquakes bears any resemblance to Kate. Their lyrically styles are totally different, as are their involvement of the piano in their songs. Could you imagine Kate doing Boys for Pele? ~MDC —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.244.154.200 (talk) 21:42, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

I, too, don't see the relevancy for this info. I say delete it. --Pisceandreams (talk) 13:26, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Tori Amos and Kate Bush together are the gauge of today's alternative side of the singer-songwriter genre. No act (e.g. Regina Spektor, Fiona Apple) avoids getting compared to the two by any of the big magazines or by fans in general. Q "joking" with Kate Bush about her favorite act being Tori Amos, countless tributes to the two, and the pure fact that Kate Bush is mentioned twice in this discussion, should add up to at least a mention in the Tori Amos article.Revan ltrl (talk) 18:37, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Besides which it's relevance, not relevancy. Whatever becomes of the passage let's hope it isn't edited by either of you with your cut-price English. 80.229.39.8 (talk) 13:09, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

noteworthy early in her career as one of the few pop performers to use a piano as her primary instrument.

I don't pretend to no much about Tori Amos, but it would appear to me that there are hundreds of pop proformers using the piano as their primary instrument. I mean behind the guitar it must be the most popular, maybe surpassing the guitar. If she played the sitar or xiao as a primary instrument or even a recorder or something other than piano or guitar maybe this would be worth mentioning. I think it should be deleted.--AresAndEnyo (talk) 01:15, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't. Who on the pop charts in the early 90s was recording piano-driven music? In fact, one of the reasons Atlantic wanted early demos of Little Earthquakes redone was because of its heavy use of piano when they wanted guitars. She went on to use some sort of keyboard on every single one of her albums. It's significant. Samuel Grant (talk) 03:14, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
I changed that sentence to use "pioneer" as it sounds better and I also think it is more accurate. I also changed the tense of the sentence from past tense to present tense since Tori is still the pioneer. Convergence Dude (talk) 21:02, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Since when was Tori noteworthy for performing early on in her career barefoot? If anything, she's known for performing in her heels. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.244.154.200 (talk) 08:31, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Tori's stagename

It is written in the article that she takes the stage name Tori because someone says to her that she looks more like a "Tori" than a "Myra Ellen" and places this in the time frame of when she recorded Baltimore. I read that she chose the stage name because it is a type of redwood tree, and I want to say that this happened later in her career.Poeticvirgo (talk) 18:51, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

At least in the All These Years biography, the story is that a friend's friend who she didn't know told her "You look like a Tori." Later she found out it was a type of pine tree and it stuck. Samuel Grant (talk) 17:08, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Comic Book Tattoo

Not sure how to work this in so I'll drop it in here: Image Comics will be releasing a graphic novel in Summer 2008 called Comic Book Tattoo, which will feature comic book interpretations of Tori Amos' songs by various comic creators like Pia Guerra, David Mack, Leah Moore, etc. and it will also include an introduction by Neil Gaiman (which might address some of those Sandman questions above. News report from The Guardian. (Emperor (talk) 00:07, 19 April 2008 (UTC))

List of creators at Newsarama. (Emperor (talk) 22:19, 6 May 2008 (UTC))
I, too, think it would be appropriate to include this somewhere in the article, I'm just not sure where/how. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Maybe creating a section titled 'Influences' would facilitate this? Would there be enough other info to include in such a section? Even though I'm a longtime fan, I don't think Tori a section called 'Legacy' would work, considering she's still alive and all. ;) --Pisceandreams (talk) 12:22, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps "adaptations" or perhaps "in popular culture" which are common enough sections elsewhere.
Note a blog has started describing the process and the adaptations [4] which should provide plenty of background - enough for the start of its own article in the end. (Emperor (talk) 15:31, 14 July 2008 (UTC))

Tori Amos pioneer sources

I've read an article that claimed Amy Lee of the rock band Evanescence, who also uses a piano as her primary instrument, is a fan of Tori Amos and credits her as a pioneer. I can try harder to find that source if you insist. I've heard other musicians refer to Tori Amos as a pioneer. Here are other sources:

From [5]

...Since the definition of Alternative Music (and Rock) refers to those genres that don't fit into the mainstream, not everything is necessarily lumped into the guitar-laden sound category. One artist that falls into this "other" category is Tori Amos. In a way, Amos could be considered one of the pioneers of the Alternative Music revolution. Amos' sound is a piano-oriented sound....

And [6]

...It makes her even more a pioneer for female originality and independence....

And [7]

...The unique and uncompromising artistry of Tori Amos laid the groundwork for the female singer-songwriter phenomenon of the mid to late '90s. Her stunning 1992 debut, Little Earthquakes, introduced her haunting and emotive voice and lyrical storytelling with an intensity that was astounding. She brought the piano back to the forefront of cutting-edge rock... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Convergence Dude (talk • contribs) 22:22, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Article 1 doesn't list an author. We don't know who wrote it, or for what purpose, other than to sell albums. Article 3 is written from a biased perspective (Rhino owns the rights to Amos' back catalogue, once held by Atlantic). Article 2 is from a more reputable music source, but the statement of Amos being a pioneer is very narrow in scope.
"Amos was at the forefront of a number of female singer-songwriters in the early 1990s and was noteworthy early in her career as one of the few alternative rock performers to use a piano as her primary instrument." This sounds more neutral and factual. As is, it doesn't really require sources.
"Amos is the pioneer for a number of female singer-songwriters[who?][citation needed] starting in the early 1990s and is noteworthy as one of the first alternative rock performers to use a piano as their primary instrument." This is making assertions that don't have a credible source. Also, as of 2008, Amos is no longer noteworthy of this. This really should be in past tense until she releases work that has a significant impact on music, society, etc.
Don't get me wrong, I am a huge Tori fan of over a decade, but the text as it currently appears in the article is slanted/biased. I appreciate your wanting to improve the article Convergence Dude, but what Samuel Grant said about the neutrality of your edits is true. Does anyone else wish to weigh in on this? --Pisceandreams (talk) 13:54, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
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