Talk:Timeline of LGBT Jewish history

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Allegations that Torah true classical scholars supported and implied pro gay themes and memes is ludicrous[edit]

This is sheer nonsense, so I took it out of the tendentious "article" and I brought it here for in-depth discussion, I added the bold:

  • c. 993-1055 - The medieval Rabbi Shmuel HaNagid wrote several homoerotic poems.<ref name=":HaNagid">{{Cite news|url=https://www.haaretz.com/life/.premium-medieval-hebrew-poets-come-out-of-closet-in-new-anthology-1.5425658|title=Medieval Hebrew Poets 'Come Out of Closet' in New Anthology|last=Izikovich|first=Gili|date=2015-11-24|work=Haaretz|access-date=2019-04-11|language=en}}</ref>
  • c. 1075-1141 - The medieval Jewish poet and philosopher Judah Halevi wrote several homoerotic love poems.<ref name=":HaNagid" />
  • c. 1220 - The medieval rabbi and poet Judah Alharizi wrote of a poem in his work Takhemoni that said: “Had Moses seen how my friend’s face blushes when he is drunk, and his beautiful curls and wonderful hands, he would not have written in his Torah: do not lie with a man.”<ref>{{Cite book|url=https://books.google.co.cr/books?id=964eCAAAQBAJ&pg=PT52&lpg=PT52&dq=jeffrey+gorsky+Had+Moses+seen+how+my+friend%E2%80%99s+face+blushes&source=bl&ots=RaBuPrmkkk&sig=ZuxyxkLiS8Q9pLg8zgMliY0-Hqs&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=jeffrey%20gorsky%20Had%20Moses%20seen%20how%20my%20friend%E2%80%99s%20face%20blushes&f=false|title=Exiles in Sepharad: The Jewish Millennium in Spain|last=Gorsky|first=Jeffrey|date=2015|publisher=U of Nebraska Press|isbn=9780827612396|language=en}}</ref>
  • 1322 - Kalonymus ben Kalonymus, a Jewish philosopher, wrote a poem that some modern perspectives have interpreted as an expression of gender dysphoria and transgender identity.<ref>{{Cite web|url=http://www.transtorah.org/PDFs/On-Becoming-A-Woman.pdf|title=On Becoming a Woman|last=Cole|first=Peter|date=|website=TransTorah.org|publisher=Princeton University Press|archive-url=|archive-date=|dead-url=|access-date=}}</ref>

Comments please! Thanks, IZAK (talk) 23:10, 2 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hi IZAK. If reliable sources support the claims, then that's what Wikipedia should say too. You can qualify the claim with "according to xxx, ". Jayjg (talk) 12:40, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Jay, this is clearly a violation of WP:NOR and WP:MADEUP and is contradicted by WP itself, see Homosexuality and Judaism#Homosexuality in the Hebrew Bible and Rabbinic Jewish application and interpretation of these verses, namely Same-sex marriage in the Midrash and the Talmud and Homosexuality in classic rabbinic literature. At "best" the allegation should have been something like "according to modern Reformist POVs" or some such, but even that is troubling because they cannot put words and thoughts into peoples mouths and minds to get at a preconceived result they want. Thanks for the input though. IZAK (talk) 20:40, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@IZAK:, it's quite the opposite; there is significant academic support for the view that writers such as Shmuel haNagid, Yehudah HaLevi etc. wrote homoerotic verse, and it's easy enough to find reliable sources. The fact that the homosexuality was condemned in many Jewish communities and sources can't change the fact that it was apparently lauded by many of the greatest Jewish writers in medieval Iberia. Jayjg (talk) 21:09, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Jayjg:You miss the point. What you they assume to be "homoerotic" was merely an age old expression of "you must love your neighbor as yourself." IZAK (talk) 21:17, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@IZAK:, I don't assume anything to be homoerotic, but reliable sources clearly see it as such. Jayjg (talk) 21:50, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Jayjg: It's nevertheless a violation of WP:NOR and WP:MADEUP since you can say anything in that case. Things must be correct in context. And by the way, what would be the accepted definition of homoeroticism according to those sages? Is it to imply an acceptance of something that has exploded in our times that the Torah explicitly forbids, namely וְאֶת-זָכָר , לֹא תִשְׁכַּב מִשְׁכְּבֵי אִשָּׁה — תּוֹעֵבָה הִוא
"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind; it is detestable."
- Lev. 18:22 and .וְאִישׁ אֲשֶׁר יִשְׁכַּב אֶת-זָכָר מִשְׁכְּבֵי אִשָּׁה — תּוֹעֵבָה עָשׂוּ שְׁנֵיהֶם. מוֹת יוּמָתוּ; דְּמֵיהֶם בָּם
"And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed a detestable act: They shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."
- Lev. 20:13?

Makes absolutely no sense in context if so. IZAK (talk) 22:04, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

These sources were collected by someone with an agenda. And possibly written by someone with an agenda. It should be obvious that such interpretations are misinterpretations, and questions of WP:FRINGE come to my mind, closely related to serious misgiving related to WP:MADEUP. Jayjg, I wouldn't say "many". Those are only 4. In any case, and as a general observation, poetry may lend itself to all kinds of interpretations, which as not always likely. Compare Sexuality of William Shakespeare, where a line or two inspired all kinds of speculations, which are, IMHO, more a product of modern minds, than of Shakespears.Debresser (talk) 23:10, 3 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@IZAK:, it's obviously not WP:NOR or WP:MADEUP; those policies are about what Wikipedia editors do (or shouldn't do) in articles, not what academics and other reliable sources do. On the contrary, good academics are supposed to do original research; that's exactly what they want to publish, and what academic presses and journals want to publish. And they can't just "say anything in that case"; that's exactly what the editorial process weeds out.
@Debresser:, the sources may have been collected by someone with an agenda, but they exist, and meet Wikipedia's WP:RS requirements. And even though only four such sources were used in this article, there are certainly more than four of them out there. You could start with the work of Peter Cole, here for example, which was a winner of a National Jewish Book Award and winner of the American Publishers Association's award for Book of the Year. Norman Roth wrote a whole article on the topic in Speculum (journal), titled ""Deal gently with the young man"*: Love of Boys in Medieval Hebrew Poetry of Spain". Zion Zohar's Sephardic and Mizrahi Jewry: From the Golden Age of Spain to Modern Times (footnote 25, page 95) of gives other sources dating back as far as 1955. This is not a controversial idea in academia; if anything, it is a fairly uncontroversial view. Jayjg (talk) 15:34, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I can understand IZAK's concerns here. Considering the huge volume of medieval Jewish poetry (especially in view of the small size of the community at the time) it is not surprising that a few examples can be found that might allude. Unfortunately the Haaretz article is behind a wall, and I am mindful that it is a single source. Perhaps WP:WEIGHT applies here. JFW | T@lk 10:19, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Jfdwolff:, as I've noted above, there are many such sources, mostly academic, and I've listed (and even linked) some of them. Jayjg (talk) 21:13, 8 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Descended from Baal Shem Tov? Proof please![edit]

I took out this for discussion because besides telling the JTA, there are no real WP:RS cited (bold mine): ", and is a direct descendant of Hasidic Judaism's founder the Baal Shem Tov.<ref>[http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/news/1.687051 "Descendant of Hasidic Judaism Founder Comes Out as Transgender"], [[Jewish Telegraphic Agency|JTA]], November 19, 2015</ref>". Note, there is a "trend" in Hasidic circles for families to allege they descend from the Baal Shem Tov who lived 1698-1760, see Baal Shem Tov family tree which is about "as good as it gets". Otherwise, most of the claims by many random Hasidic families is done to enhance their "yichus" and often "cooked up" in some latter day Yichus book which is not even cited by and for Stein. So this point will have to remain excluded as it also borders on WP:FRINGE, WP:HOAX, WP:NONSENSE as well as WP:REFSPAM and WP:SELFCITE. Thank you, IZAK (talk) 19:10, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Agree that this should be removed because of WP:WEIGHT. JFW | T@lk 20:58, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I agree this claim should not be mentioned as irrelevant to the subject. Debresser (talk) 22:04, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I returned it. With additional "proof" from geni.com, writing out the exact lineage from Stein to the Baal Shem Tov. In addition, the source referenced as note 3, a primary source from a book of Stein's grandfather, PUBLISHED BY HER FATHER, hence a solid primary source connection to her. Also, as far as Wikipedia is concerned, JTA, as well as several other reliable news sources that make the claim, are more than enough for proof, as opposed to the above writers, "feeling" that it might be made up.
Also, Stein constantly talks about it publicly including on TV and in interviews, making it an important detail about her life. IZAK's desire to remove it sounds more like a persoanl discomfort with the fact that Stein's is a descendent of the Baal Shem Tov, rather than an encyclopedic one. Also added two more sources for it in addition to the JTA one, just for extra 'proof'. After that, I am not sure how much more 'proof' one can ask for. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ovrim (talk • contribs) 08:17, 9 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It seems to be mentioned in enough RS to be includable in her main bio, but I express no opinion as to whether it is WP:DUE in this timeline article. -sche (talk) 04:18, 10 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
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