Talk:Tilda Swinton

Nationality

I decided to go ahead and change her nationality to British for the following reason. Although she does identify as Scottish, she was still born in England. As this source puts it, "Great Britain [...] is a geographic term referring to the island also known simply as Britain. It’s also a political term for the part of the United Kingdom made up of England, Scotland, and Wales." Since Britain is made up of both England and Scotland, it would be more proper to refer to her as British, that way we follow her statements regarding what she identifies as, yet we don't violate the fact that she is still legally English by birth. If anyone disagrees or has a different argument to add, please do bring it up here. Film Enthusiast (talk) 17:32, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

I think it should be changed to Scottish, as the identity/brand of actors is important to their public persona, and Tilda has made it a thing now where she is referenced as Scottish. This seems a similar situation to Taron Egerton?Halbared (talk) 08:43, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

Is it OK for people to impose themselves on other nations? Surely it is for Scotland to decide who is Scottish. It is perfectly OK to report her identification, but to treat it as more than that is something else, surely. Lots of people have been sincerely convinced that they are Napoleon Bonaparte without being actors. Stikko (talk) 22:27, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

In Wikipedia:Nationality of people from the United Kingdom#Guide_to_finding_UK_nationality it says, Look specifically for evidence that the person has a preferred nationality.Halbared (talk) 08:49, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

@Halbared: True, and as I said earlier, I know she identifies as Scottish. But as I previously stated, she was still born in England, therefore, British is the best term as it covers both countries, those of which correspond to her identity as Scottish and her place of birth, hence English. Or would English-born Scottish be more preferable? Also, the term British is an official legal nationality of the UK, of which is composed of both Scotland and England, in part. What the subjects identifies as shouldn't be too heavily relied on, instead there should be a balance between their identity and how reliable sources describe them.

As for your suggestion, that is an essay (which is composed of opinions by Wikipedia editors) not a guideline, policy, or MOS, therefore it's not as reliable to base off of, and shouldn't be taken with too much consideration. MOS:ID would be a more suitable guideline to utilize. — Film Enthusiast^✉ 16:49, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

I think as MOS:ID is a generic thing, covering generalities, and UK nationality is a specific thing, referring to the identities of actors from the UK, that as a specific guide is a more suitable one. I haven't looked too hard at whether Tilda now has third party sources referring to her as Scottish, cultural identity isn't just place of birth, or parentage.Halbared (talk) 17:27, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

It's still an essay, it should be taken with a grain of salt. You shouldn't be relying only on that to support your argument, otherwise it may come off as weak. Also, let me reiterate my previous question, would English-born Scottish be more preferable? Because you're right, cultural identity isn't just place of birth, or parentage, but it also isn't solely the identity/brand of actors. — Film Enthusiast^✉ 17:42, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

I think the combination of preference from the individual in accordance with third party sources is fairly strong. It's only in this case (I think because it's recent and not established); long time established stars like Sean Connery Anthony Hopkins have no trouble because their brand has been in existence for decades. But stars like Christian Bale and others still need to keep asserting in interviews what they are. Third party sources eventually catch on. Like it appears to be the case here. Two of the guides points are self, which we've covered and third party sources which exist. I don't personally like 'English born', it looks clunky. Place of birth is covered in early life/info box. I took a look at JRR Tolkien/Rudyard Kipling/Anna Taylor Joy. They each take different paths.Halbared (talk) 17:55, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

@Halbared: I agree, but only if such sources are generally reliable, not just random outlets on the web. They must be credible. — Film Enthusiast^✉ 18:06, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

@Film Enthusiast:, Yes, I agree with this too, which is why I try and find good sources that make the case. I think this should be the best one? It's a list of Scottish actors on Scotland.org. Halbared (talk) 18:10, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

After a quick look; Britannica, Hello magazine, Daily Record and National Galleries of Scotland amongst others all refer to her as Scottish.Halbared (talk) 17:32, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

@Halbared: I can't find anything from National Galleries of Scotland describing Tilda as Scottish. Care to point out where exactly does it say that? As for the rest, only Encyclopedia Britannica would be a reliable source, the other two are more tabloid-like and not as valid, they should be treated with skepticism. — Film Enthusiast^✉ 17:54, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

It looks like I misread or misunderstood the National Galleries of Scotland criteria on the page I looked at, they actually describe her as British. I was wrong there. I understand Record would be a poor source, I thought Hello would be good. THere is this , and , a native of Scotland.Halbared (talk) 18:03, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

@Halbared: The last three that you have suggested might work, but I have found many other reliably stronger sources call her otherwise: The New York Times [1], Variety [2], Reuters [3], The Guardian [4], TheWrap [5], The Wall Street Journal [6], The Times [7], The Daily Telegraph [8]. I think this is more than enough to settle it. — Film Enthusiast^✉ 19:06, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

Good work, this can't be 'settled' in that sense, it's an ongoing process, I would think that scotland.org is the 'stronger' source, but it seems to be an impasse, I think specificity is better, but at the moment Tilda's career isn't dependent or reflective of her Scottish identity, so I don't have anything else to add I think.Halbared (talk) 21:02, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

@Halbared: Meant to say enough to settle it 'for now'. The Scotland.org website is strong enough, but we need more sources to support her Scottish specificity if we want to use that term, and at the moment, there aren't as many sources describing her as such, as opposed to the several that do describe her as British. It is the most common term used to reference her, as proven by these sources. — Film Enthusiast^✉ 21:59, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

Sure, that's good reasoning.Halbared (talk) 22:03, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

She specifically states that she is first and foremost a Scot. Would we have wikipedia pages of transgendered people with their birth genders shown? 194.105.188.81 (talk) 08:38, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

References

Age of graduation

I could be incredibly dense right now, but it states that she graduated Cambridge at age 13?

This is written about in many places, but nowhere explicitly states she is 18 - just that she was born in 1960 and graduated in 1983.

Very confused! Sean (talk) 17:35, 27 April 2023 (UTC)