Talk:Symphony No. 48 (Haydn)

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Orchestration[edit]

I'm looking at the Eulenburg edition. There are no bassoons, and for the horns it says only "2 Corni in C" 141.217.70.199 19:54, 27 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

My source says the bassoon doubles the bass line. I suppose that point could be added as its not really an "independent" instrument if its only doubling. The issue with the horns and trumpets/timpani is an interesting one. Originally it was just two horns (alto-C and F), but there is evidence that following the Esterhazy fire where the scores were nearly lost and had to be recopied, the orchestration was altered it with timpani added and trumpets doubling the high horns in the faster movements. In performances, the trumpets add color, but the alto-C horn has such a distinctive sound that some don't want the trumpets to drown it out. So some performance include the trumpets and some do not. These points can be added to the orchestration section for clarification. I added a fact-tag for the orchestration. These points should all be cited. DavidRF 20:13, 27 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A Guide to the Symphony (ed. Robert Layton) also says this symphony uses alto C horns. But if, as 141.217.70.199, the score really only says "two horns in C" then I would assume that these are supposed to be read an octave lower and if I was copying the score out I would rewrite them a fourth lower (for the modern horn in F) instead of a fifth up and into the "not so practical" part of the instrument's range. Of course this begs the question, what kind of horn do they use in modern performances? Volunteer Sibelius Salesman 20:09, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I just found an interesting webpage detailing all the horn parts of Haydn symphonies here. They do distinguish there between alto-C horns and just horns in C. They list #48 as using alto-C horns. Also, the symphony starts with the horns calling out ceremonially, so anyone could try the sound samples of many recordings of the first movement at any number of vendors (e.g. amazon). It sounds like high horns to me, but I'm not an expert (no sarcasm intended, I'm not a horn player and period horns and trumpets can sometimes sound different). Is that horn webpage citable? I always feel better citing things that are in print. DavidRF 20:26, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A lot of work went into that webpage but the problem is that it doesn't say what editions were used. HCRL, on the other hand, looked at so many different editions with a level of care that would be quite beyond me.

Further complicating the issue is that you can't always count on the Eulenburg having both possible timpani parts. At my local library I found one copy bound with 23 other symphonies for which No. 48 has only one timpani part, and another one of No. 48 by itself which has, as HCRL says, both parts on the same staff for easy comparison, the part considered more doubtful by Praetorius is in a kind of handwriting with the note stems down. Don't quote me on this last point: it seems to me that the more doubtful timpani part matches the rhythm of the trumpets while the part considered more authentic doesn't. Anton Mravcek 22:38, 28 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have played this symphony with my natural horn last year and as far as I'm concerned, the horn parts are horn in C-alto, only the second movement has horn in F, so the description in the main article is not really correct, as the horns always have the same pitch. The main article would suggest that the horns are in C-alto (first horn) and F (second horn). The horn parts are a real challenge as the first part goes to e3 (for F-horn). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.113.118.34 (talk) 16:29, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I could be wrong in detail, but I seem to recall Robbins Landon was the earliest scholar in the mid twentieth century to revive the use of the C horns in alt in this work. He also suggested that the additional or rewritten trumpet and drum parts were later publisher's additions. The symphony was certainly recorded (e,g. by Antonio Janigro and I solisti di Zagreb in the early sixties) with the horns at the lower octave Delahays (talk) 16:10, 7 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]