Talk:Swaminarayan/Archive 6

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Criticism

If at all, this criticism should go under Swaminarayan Sampradaya and not on the section of Swaminarayan: The Swaminarayan faith has been linked to patriarchal class structures that subjugate women. Members of the faith are defensive of the fact that some practices seem to restrict women and make gender equality in leadership impossible.

And the next criticism should go into Swaminarayan Hinduism as it complies to that section: (Note: since the citation itself is not from Swaminarayan's time but modern times in Swaminarayan Hinduism) However, while "many would assert that Swaminarayan Hinduism serves a patriarchal agenda, which attempts to keep women in certain roles", Swaminarayan himself, despite considerable criticism from those in his own contemporary society who "loathed the uplift of lower caste women," insisted that education was the inherent right of all people.

I deleted: "In case of widows, he directed those who could not follow the path of chastity to remarry." There is no citation. (Kapil.xerox (talk) 01:45, 27 August 2011 (UTC))

Despite the reforms for women within the sect, according to Professor David Hardiman, "Swaminarayan's actions have propagated a vicious form of patriarchy that subjugate women." After traveling throughout India, he was reported to vomit even if approached by even the shadow of a women." Practices set forth by him seem to restrict women and make gender equality in leadership impossible. No women are trustees of the religion nor do they serve on any managing committees of the major temples. Thus all the wealth and institutions are effective under the control of men. He also directed male devotees not to listen to religious discourses given by women. Swaminarayan restricted widows "to live always under the control of male members of their family and prohibited them from receiving instruction in any science from any man excepting their nearest relations." Concepts of pollution associated with the menstrual cycle lead to the exclusion of women from the temples and daily worship.

Similar issues with caste by Swaminarayan has been recorded. He would eat along with the Rajput and Khati castes but not any lower. He established separate places of worship for the lower population where they were considerable. In the Shikshapatri, he wrote do not take food or water from a person of a lower caste. Members of a lower caste are prohibited from wearing a full sect mark (tilak chandlo) on their forehead.

Several decades after formation of the movement, Swami Dayananda (1824–1883) questioned the acceptance of Swaminarayan as the Supreme Being and disapproving towards the idea that visions of Swaminarayan could form a path to attaining perfection. Swaminarayan was criticized because he received large gifts from his followers and dressed and traveled as a Maharaja even though he had taken the vows of renunciation of the world. Accused of deviating from the Vedas, his followers were criticized for the illegal collection of wealth and the "practice of frauds and tricks." In the views of Swami Dayananda, it was a "historical fact" that Swaminarayan decorated himself as Narayana in order to gain followers.

What are some ways we can improve this?141.217.233.69 (talk) 05:54, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

First: STOP YOUR EDIT WARRING! You cannot work towards a compromise if you are blocked for edit warring PantherLeapord|My talk page|My CSD log 05:56, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Follow your own advice. Discuss BEFORE deleting cited information.141.217.233.69 (talk) 05:58, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

You are the one making the changes, you are the one with the burden of proof, YOU are the one that needs to discuss. I am merely enforcing policy by keeping the article at a stable version while the issues are discussed. PantherLeapord|My talk page|My CSD log 06:03, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

The obvious POV violations have been taken care of. The sources should be evaluated by someone with more expertise than I. Hopefully soon as this is a "Good Article". --NeilN ^{talk to me} 06:09, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

We are going in circles. I have the proof. I have posted it. You are edit warring. 141.217.233.69 (talk) 06:07, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

At least NeilN is reasonable and reached out. 141.217.233.69 (talk) 06:13, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Outside party here: Can someone briefly discuss here why this material was rejected or point me to an archived discussion where the reasons this material was rejected were discussed? At first glance, it seems appropriate and well-sourced? Thank you. Gamaliel (talk) 14:48, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

The initial material was rejected because of POV terms like "vicious" and "similar hypocrisy". I have not reverted since those issues were fixed. I do think someone who is familiar with the topic should check on the appropriateness of the sources to ensure they're not coming from a rival movement. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 15:03, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

That is obviously inappropriate, but the current edit in question is sourced to Economic and Political Weekly, a book from Cambridge University Press, a manuscript in the Bodleian Library, and a book from the University of Pennsylvania Press. If nothing else, these sources appear to add value to the article and perhaps shouldn't be so quickly rejected. Gamaliel (talk) 15:22, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Thank you Gamaliel. At least you bring a non-biased POV. 141.217.233.69 (talk) 15:40, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Okay so from what I've understood so far a consensus has been reached...then why is there still edit warring? I'm still not sure what to make of this edit whether to revert and keep... -Ugog Nizdast (talk) 07:00, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Consensus? There's been almost zero discussion regarding this. Gamaliel (talk) 13:02, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

A user from Detroit using multiple area IP addresses along with the now apparently blocked socks of User:Swamifraud, User:Swamioffraud, User:Duarfimaws, User:6Duarf.imaws, User:Sageorsun, and the User:141.217.233.69 (among many others) has been consistently violating consensus, libeling, writing in extremely biased language, misquoting/stretching facts, and edit warring on this and other Swaminarayan-related articles for the past several months. The Criticism section that he/she has rewritten on this page is written in extremely biased POV language and directly quotes every single line with a negative thought available mainly from just one source to give biased, undue weight to points which were discussed with neutral point of view before. The Hardiman and the Williams sources are not properly cited and the Bodleian Shikshapatri quotes are lifted from an original source without academic interpretation or context. Writing such a critical account must require more substantiation and an academic consensus, not to mention a Wikipedia consensus. I would suggest reverting the criticism section to the version that helped this article get good article status earlier (from a collaboration of contributors such as User:World, among others, who used the same Hardiman and Williams sources to write a much neutrally worded section). Otherwise, GA status needs to be re-evaluated/revoked for this article. Anastomoses (talk) 02:56, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

I reverted the criticism that was erased. Even though this is hard to digest, I want to know get a consensus.

Breadinglover (talk) 12:13, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

The section was not erased but restored to the original good article version before it was modified to a POV version by 141.217.233.69 and other sock puppets of Swamifraud. Gamaliel's point of citing the mentioned sources is addressed in unbiased original version. Anastomoses (talk) 13:56, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

The Criticism section has been discussed and here is a suggested expansion. Any input would be helpful.

Several decades after formation of the movement, Swami Dayananda (1824–1883) questioned the acceptance of Swaminarayan as the Supreme Being and was disapproving towards the idea that visions of Swaminarayan could form a path to attaining perfection. Accused of deviating from the Vedas, his followers were criticised for the illegal collection of wealth and the "practice of frauds and tricks." In the views of Swami Dayananda, published as early as 1875, it was a "historical fact" that Swaminarayan decorated himself as Narayana in order to gain followers. Swaminarayan was criticized because he received large gifts from his followers and dressed and traveled as a Maharaja even though he had taken the vows of renunciation of the world.

Swaminarayan initiated reforms in both relationships without totally abolishing sex discrimination or caste differentiation. The interpretation and application of Swaminarayan’s reform raise two hotly debated issues of contemporary social ethics, the position of women society and the role of caste. However, while "many would assert that Swaminarayan Hinduism serves a patriarchal agenda, which attempts to keep women in certain roles", Swaminarayan himself, despite considerable criticism from those in his own contemporary society who "loathed the uplift of lower caste women," insisted that education was the inherent right of all people. According to Professor David Hardiman, "Swaminarayan's actions have propagated a vicious form of patriarchy that subjugates women." After traveling throughout India, he was reported to vomit even if approached by even the shadow of a women." Practices set forth by him seem to restrict women and make gender equality in leadership impossible. Professor Williams states, “No women are trustees of the religion nor do they serve on any managing committees of the major temples. Thus all the wealth and institutions are effective under the control of men.” Concepts of pollution associated with the menstrual cycle lead to the exclusion of women from the temples and daily worship. In case of widows, he directed those who could not follow the path of chastity to remarry. For those who could, he lay down strict rules which included them being under the control of male members of the family. This may seem regressive; however it gave them "a respected and secure place in the social order" of the time. He also directed male devotees not to listen to religious discourses given by women. Swaminarayan restricted widows "to live always under the control of male members of their family and prohibited them from receiving instruction in any science from any man excepting their nearest relations."

In relation to caste, as already suggested, the Swaminarayan order was and is predominantly conservative. Caste Divisions are scarely effaced by membership of the order and Harijans were formly excluded from Swaminarayan temples. Swaminarayan's sect dismissed caste as irrelevant to the soul's status before god though in practice, caste distinctions remained visible among them though reduced in complexity. He would eat along with the Rajput and Khati castes but not any lower. He established separate places of worship for the lower population where they were considerable. In the Shikshapatri, he wrote do not take food or water from a person of a lower caste. Members of a lower caste are prohibited from wearing a full sect mark (tilak chandlo) on their forehead. Even now, however, for the vast majority of Gujarat's lower-caste, Untouchable and tribal population, the sect is out of bounds.

Bluespeakers (talk) 15:50, 29 October 2013 (UTC) Banned sock.

Criticism has been debated on this talk several times. First and second para in current article looks good and should be retained as it is. However, the third para about caste distinction needs to be discussed here and is a divergent view from the current "Caste system and moksha" para. Redtigerxyz ^Talk 17:26, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

::Thank you for your input. Anything specific about the third paragraph. It seems to contradict his work that devotees claim he did but Professor Williams explains "well in one sentence that Swaminarayan initiated reforms in both relationships without totally abolishing sex discrimination or caste differentiation." I have to add that of course only applied to his followers and the solel regions where this man was located and preached. Bluespeakers (talk) 17:37, 29 October 2013 (UTC) Banned sock.

I disagree, none of the para matches the given source. Dayanand saraswati has never criticized swaminarayan, are we presenting lies here? Bladesmulti (talk) 17:32, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Acutally there are five. If you need more. Please ask:

http://books.google.com/books?id=tPkexi2EhAIC&pg=PA81&lpg=PA81&dq=%22Maharaja+even+though+he+had+taken+the+vows+of+%22&source=bl&ots=uhk2QoqH8W&sig=MqL-M2sTl1Eoh_olE7f7vryPzJ4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=0Ky6UcTHL82qqQGR54DoDg&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22Maharaja%20even%20though%20he%20had%20taken%20the%20vows%20of%20%22&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=rmfR4nQvbSsC&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22Accused+of+deviating+from+the+Vedas%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ECdvUo2jBcL72QWQuIHwAg&ved=0CDkQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=frauds&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=Siv6V1VDX-AC&pg=PA51&lpg=PA51&dq=swami+dayananda+criticized+swaminarayan&source=bl&ots=Kjfj6yDy4Y&sig=E_s97SJV3gPc5zyJLZqrISqbU7Q&hl=en&sa=X&ei=HjNvUupjxffbBY_IgIgJ&ved=0CGYQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=Vallabhacharya&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=Siv6V1VDX-AC&pg=PA109&dq=Shikshapatri+Dhwanta+Nivarana&hl=en&sa=X&ei=YzZvUovXJemW2AW5loCoCg&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Shikshapatri%20Dhwanta%20Nivarana&f=false

https://www.google.com/search?q=%22acquainted+with+Swaminarayan+doctrines%2C+as+is+demonstrated+particularly+in+his+anti-Swami-+narayan+pamphlet+Shikshaapatriidhvaantanivaarana%22&oq=%22acquainted+with+Swaminarayan+doctrines%2C+as+is+demonstrated+particularly+in+his+anti-Swami-+narayan+pamphlet+Shikshaapatriidhvaantanivaarana%22&aqs=chrome..69i57.1012j0j9&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8#es_sm=122&espv=210&q=%22acquainted+with+Swaminarayan+doctrines%2C+as+is+demonstrated+particularly+in+his+anti-Swami-+narayan+pamphlet+Shikshaapatriidhvaantanivaarana%22&tbm=bks

Bluespeakers (talk) 17:39, 29 October 2013 (UTC) Banned sock.

Will you move forward to proving these links, and present that exact quotes which you are claiming. Bladesmulti (talk) 17:57, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

This is not where you discuss this but if you acutally read them. Dayanand criticized the Narayan sect a lot for deviating from the Vedas. You are not reading it. Don't be stuck on stupid. Read it and then add to the paragraphs as needed. Seriously, you have not read anything. I just re-read to make sure that I posted the right links and it is all there. I am working on rewriting the paragraph to it is more accurate than it already is and reflects exact quotes. You are welcome to help. But you are quite upset and need to really read all 5 sources.

Bluespeakers (talk) 18:00, 29 October 2013 (UTC) Banned sock.

One or two words compared to 50 words of claim or bigger.. Not helpful. Bladesmulti (talk) 18:09, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

But it says something. You may want to think it's one or two words but a few posts ago, it wasn't even that. You are flip-flopping. Why couldn't you admit there were one or two words before? Seems like you have a personal agenda.

Bluespeakers (talk) 18:20, 29 October 2013 (UTC) Banned sock.

I'm confused about this objection. The current version of the article already mentions Swami Dayananda criticizing Swaminarayan. Can you be more specific about your objections? What about this new proposed addition do you object to? Which sources cited specifically do not state what is asserted this proposed addition? Gamaliel (talk) 18:46, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

I am confused too. Bluespeakers wants to remove any thing about Swami Dayananda criticizing Swaminarayan even though I provided five sources. Please Gamaliel could you help me out. I feel lost and now this user is trying to block me as if my input is not valueable since I did not agree with him. Bluespeakers (talk) 19:24, 29 October 2013 (UTC) Banned sock.

You're doing the right thing by engaging in discussion here on the talk page. Let's wait for Bladesmulti's response and take it from there. Gamaliel (talk) 19:45, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. On Dayananda Saraswati wiki page, it even shows in the Complete list of his works section that Dayananda wrote about swaminarayan. See # 8. ShikshaPatri Dhwant Nivaran OR SwamiNarayan mat Khandan (1875). I am going to try to find the english version. You simply did not want to have this up and I do not understand why. Any moderator will take a look at the sites I posted and see that I have proven my point of why something should not be deleted that was already sourced.

http://sanskritdocuments.org/news/subnews/MDSDVDPamphlet.pdf has the ShikshaPatri Dhwant Nivaran listed as one of many CRITICISM BOOKS.

Bluespeakers (talk) 19:49, 29 October 2013 (UTC) Banned sock.

References disagree with you Bladesmulti. Dayananda did criticize Swaminarayan and it needs to be noted. This was already discussed once in 2009 when the article became a GA. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 04:54, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Bluespeakers, I suggest that as per Wikipedia:Criticism using an "integrated" approach. IMO, we should name Reforms as "Work and views". Integrate his good work and criticism on caste and women in it. Combine Dayananda with manifestation belief. Redtigerxyz ^Talk 04:54, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

::I agree that most of it should be integrated. See the main problem is after reading about this person is that the followers genuinely believe that this person was a god and then there are people like my group that knows that he was a solely a person who made some reforms in his area but then are followers who think otherwise and get angry when their "god" is portrayed in any way that is not perfect. That is the main problem so when people are being extra defensive, there is a deeper reason than simply being against a user's IP. I will rework the article in my sandbox and repost after getting it check out. I think that we should still have some of points still be in a criticism section when it doesn't relate to women or caste. Let me know if that is okay. Just in case that I have to file an appeal before I can even work on that, would you mind Redtigerxyz keeping an eye on this topic. Please also take a look at the BAPS and Pramukh Swami article and the rape allegations. Thank you.

Bluespeakers (talk) 13:35, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Does anyone know why this article does not have individual edit options for section while other articles do? I want copy the reform section only. I can just find from the whole article but can we add the individual edits option. Thank you.

Bluespeakers (talk) 13:44, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Just figured it out! It is protected that's why.

Bluespeakers (talk) 13:45, 30 October 2013 (UTC) Banned sock.

There has been edit warring from both sides: anti-Swaminarayan (adding excessive criticism) and pro-Swaminarayan (whitewashing criticism and adding excessive praise). I request the original team @AroundTheGlobe: and @World: to participate. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 06:55, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Redtigerxyz Since it was a sock puppet contribution, and he never described his changes. I ask you to stop edit warring yourself too. And give me at least one quote that suggests anything like "Dayanand criticized swaminarayan", we know that the given source doesn't even have "dayanand" in whole book. Also you don't have to remove something which is already backed by reliable sources and blaming that it's "white washing". It's obvious vandalism if you insert something which is not even backed by the sources. Also i don't see any breach of NPOV as the page still got the criticism by M M Rahman Bladesmulti (talk) 07:14, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Sir, please read the book first before claiming " we know that the given source doesn't even have "dayanand" in whole book. " not absolute falsehood. Luckily part of the pages cited are on Google Books (linked in section below0 to debunk your statement.--Redtigerxyz ^Talk 07:42, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Replied. Bladesmulti (talk) 07:51, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Explaining my revert

Problems with [1]

1. "Because of his attachment, devotion, loyalty towards his devotees, in his life time, he was already worshipped as a living god, his followers treated him as reincarnation of Lord Krishna, and Lord Rama.": Association of Krishna already stated. Rest Not supported by Reference page.

1. "Bishop Reginald Heber regarded it to be interesting that Swaminarayan's followers included muslims as well. His followers except hindus, muslims, also ranged from zoroastrians, christians, buddhists, and others." : already covered in "Relations with other religions and the British Government"
2. "Govind Ranade remarked Swaminarayan as "the last of Hindu reformers", he compared him with Raja Ram Mohan Roy, Dayanand Saraswati and others. Ranade further adds that "but the difference between all these and Swaminarayan lies in the fact that while they were influenced in one way or the other by light from western world, Swaminarayan was wholy untouched by any alien influence and was purely Hindu in his mental and spritual constitution as in the long rollof Teachers and Reformers of the past. This constitutes his uniqueness among the reformers of our times for in him, we see Hinduism in its purest and most indigenous form."ref:{{cite book |author=Kunhi Nair |title=Sages Through Ages - Volume III: India's Heritage |publisher=AuthorHouse |location= |year=2007 |page=125 |isbn=1420877682": Questionable reliability of source. The author is unreliable and the book is a product of self-publishing
3. Removal of Dayananda's criticism: the author is the same author of "A New Face of Hinduism: The Swaminarayan Religion". Thus a very reliable source. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 07:16, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

• Remove "Lord Rama" then.
• 2nd one, it fits best with "reception", and it's much more descriptive in for this section
• More sources, backing Mahadev Govind Ranade's comments.[2], [3].. Can be relied upon

[4] The quote's truthhood was questioned in Bombay High Court. The first instance being in a book by a follower.--Redtigerxyz ^Talk 08:00, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

• Give me the exact page number and quote from the book "A New Face of Hinduism: The Swaminarayan Religion", so it can be confirmed. Bladesmulti (talk) 07:28, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) [5] pp.141-3 (p. 141 not part of preview). Not "A New Face of Hinduism: The Swaminarayan Religion", but book by same author. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 07:35, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

What 'some' of his followers do, should be noted in his follower's page. And still, where's the criticism of Dayanand Saraswati? In his whole book satyartha prakash, it's not noted either. Bladesmulti (talk) 07:39, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

What you should do is.. Revert your edit first of all, since it covered a lot more information than only "dayanand" reference. 2nd thing, you can add the Dayanand this way:-

"Several decades after formation of the movement, Swami Dayananda (1824–1883) questioned the acceptance of Swaminarayan as Supreme Being and Accused of deviating from the Vedas." Nothing more than that should be added, as this page isn't about his followers, but him. Bladesmulti (talk) 07:47, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) As I said p. 141 is not available. The story as explained in the preview is an allegory as the reference explains. p. 143 has part of the false god comment: Sahajananda (Swaminarayan) is said to be decked himself to find disciples and become a deity. Fakes breed fakes it says ahead.Redtigerxyz ^Talk

Fine, that part too, but line should be "Swami Dayananda, further adds that Swaminarayan decorated himself as Narayana in order to gain followers."... Nothing like "1875" or "historical fact." Bladesmulti (talk) 08:02, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

"historical fact" is what the reference states in preview. 1875 is the dates of Dayananda's comments in the reference (not in preview).--Redtigerxyz ^Talk 08:08, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

I don't know, but still won't need. It's not something as clear as "2+2=4", but just a opinion. Bladesmulti (talk) 08:11, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Proposal to use "integrated" from WP:CRITICISM

I am WP:BOLDly changing the article as per my proposal in "Criticism" discussion above. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 11:47, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Another reference

While this article is getting renewed attention, it would be good to incorporate content from this pretty recent and high-quality reference:

Purohit, Teena (31 October 2012). "Comparative Formations of the Hindu Swami Narayan "Sect"". The Aga Khan Case: religion and identity in colonial India. Harvard University Press. pp. 87–110. ISBN 978-0-674-06770-7. {{cite book}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)

Abecedare (talk) 14:00, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Which page number? Bladesmulti (talk) 14:41, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

I have added the relevant page numbers in the template above. There is a whole chapter in the book on the sect. It also provides a biographical summary of Sahajanand Swami (see page 99 onwards) including details from satpanth sources that are currently missing from the wikipedia article. Abecedare (talk) 16:13, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 April 2014

I need to add the content of Anadimuktas vicharan which the lord announced till 500 yeard from the day he took birth on this planet. Also, I need to show the hierarchy of Anadimuktas which the lord introduced. Valaji hetal (talk) 08:44, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Sam Sailor ^Sing 10:17, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 June 2014

94.173.139.123 (talk) 17:00, 19 June 2014 (UTC) To whom it may concern,

In the section "Work and views" sub section 'Caste system' the Rajput have been classed as a low caste when it is an almost undisputed position held by all India and neighbouring countries that they are a high caste or rank as top in the caste system and this is a blatant disinformation and distortion of the truth. It would be greatly appreciated if this was corrected so that if any researchers decide to research the caste system or the Rajput it would be easier for them to search in the high castes and also to keep the article truthful and honest.

Thank you

Kamran Mistry

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. — {{U|Technical 13}} ^{(e • t • c)} 18:03, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 November 2014

I would like to add the word "Lord" before Swaminarayan. Suraj.ponnoju (talk) 20:10, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

•  Not done. Please see this. Thanks, Jim Carter 20:32, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Swaminarayan - Avatar?

Hinduism traditionally prides itself of being the oldest religion in the world without stress on without a founder, what makes Hinduism unique. Idols of living and past priests are controversial in Hinduism since Hinduism started in pre Vedic times without any idols and only a fire altar. If Swaminarayan claims to be God and his descendants are Gods then they are probably not considered to be Hindus but an alternate sect like Sai Baba, etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.49.160.121 (talk) 23:46, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 November 2015

Yogesh 2205 (talk) 09:00, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

Not done: as you have not requested a change.
If you want to suggest a change, please request this in the form "Please replace XXX with YYY" or "Please add ZZZ between PPP and QQQ".
Please also cite reliable sources to back up your request, without which no information should be added to, or changed in, any article. - Arjayay (talk) 12:25, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 December 2015

Followers of the Yogi Divine Society or YDS, also beleived that Gunatitanand Swami was the spiritual successor to Bhagwan Swaminarayan. They are different than BAPS because their spiritual head is '''Hariprasad Swami '''. After Yogiji Maharaj died the sect was once again split Sarvanand (talk) 04:05, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Also, I'm not sure what exactly you want to change. a boat that can float! (happy holidays) 05:27, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

ADD FORETELLS OF LORD SWAMINARAYAN - Semi-protected edit request on 5 January 2016

PLEASE ADD THE FORTELL OF LORD SWAMINARAYAN IN "VASUDEV MAHTMYM', "BHAGAWAT (CONVERSATION BETWEEN KING JANAK & NINE YOGESHWARS,CONVO OF SHUKDEVJI, FROM PADMA PURAN ETC. OR CONTACT ME , I CAN ADD. Vivekchotaliya (talk) 05:46, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

Not done: as you have not requested a specific change in the form "Please replace XXX with YYY" or "Please add ZZZ between PPP and QQQ".
More importantly, you have not cited reliable sources to back up your request, without which no information should be added to, or changed in, any article.
And please stop SHOUTING - Thank you - Arjayay (talk) 15:11, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

Please remove the line in first paragraph - "Criticised By Mahatma Gandhi" & other

This article contains one line in the very first paragraph - "He has, however, been criticised by people such as Swami Dayananda and Mahatma Gandhi. The acceptance of Swaminarayan as God and secondary treatment of women is questioned by critics"

1) Criticized by Mahatma Gandhi : There is no proof that , " Mahatma Gandhi has ever criticized "Swaminarayan Sampraday" or raised any question on Lord Swaminarayan as a God . Please either give proof or remove that line. 2) secondary treatment of women - Please mention that which kind of secondary treatment of women is practiced in Swaminarayan Sampraday ? And is not practiced in other "Lord Krishna-Based" Sakar-Matvadi Sampradays??? (Sampradays believing Lord Krishna as Supreme God and believe that God has a Shape/form/body and do Idol worship, make temples, perform Vedik rituals. Like Vaishnavism and its branches)? 3) Why the only/specifically Dayanandji's criticism given in article? Please explain because he had opposed all kind "Lord Krishna based Idol worshiping" sampraday. So how can you put his statements/point of view? if you put anyone's point of view , who believes in " Lord Krishna based Idol worshiping Sampraday and criticized Swaminarayan Sampraday, then we can understand his criticism. But the man who didn't even believe in Lord Krishna, how his criticism can be important opposing a Sampraday which is based on Lord Krishna? Or what is the role to mention of his criticism in this article?

so please remove it or if you want to keep it as it is, then please add those lots of great Spiritual leaders,Saints' point of view who are in favor of Swaminarayan Sampraday.If you keep Dayanandji's point of view , you have to add our Sampraday's Achary's point of views, too. You can not put any one man's one sided point of view.

-Give the proofs of above mentioned points- 1 & 2 or remove it. -Please explain /add/modify or remove lines for point no : 3 Vivekchotaliya (talk) 08:58, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

There should be a section where someone can prove Swaminarayan is not GOD.

Swaminarayan has been criticized by Swami Dayanand Saraswati and Mahatma Gandhi.

I can even validate it further, that swaminarayan is not a god, nor he is the avatar of Vishnu. There has been 9 avatar of Vishnu, 10th is yet to take place as Kalki.

Kalki avatar will bring an end to the darkness of the Kali Yuga, destroying evil and sin, and beginning a new yuga (age) of sinlessness and peace known as the Satya Yuga.

If swaminarayan claims himself as avatar of Vishnu, then it would have been 10th avatar of Vishnu, thus Satya Yuga would have started.

Ans : FYI : Swami Dayanand Sarswati has not just criticized Swaminarayan but also Lord Krishna and all other Idol worshiping Religions. Even he told Krishna as a "Dead" & "Vyabhichari" in his most of scriptures. And as you can see in article , that Mahatma Gandhi has also criticized Vallabhachary ( Vaishnav Sampraday).

For Swaminarayan as a God : Please read Skand Puran's (one of Ved Vyas's 18 PURANs)Vishnukhand's "Vasudev Mahtmyam" [ here attaching Eng pdf : http://www.issousa.org/Content/scriptures/05%20English/vasudev%20mahatmya%20english.pdf ]

For Swaminarayan Bhagawan Avtaar plz read Read : Ch 18 Shlok No : 42,43,44 मया कृष्णेन निहताः सार्जुनेन रणेषु ये | प्रवर्तयिष्यन्त्यसुरास्ते त्वधर्म यदा क्षितौ ||४२||

धर्मदेवात्तदा मूर्तौ नरनारायणात्मना | प्रवृतेડपि कलौ ब्रह्मन् | भूत्वाहं सामगो द्विजः ||४३||

मुनिशापान्नृतां प्राप्तं सर्षि जनकमात्मनः | ततोડविता गुरुभ्योડहं सद्धर्मं स्थापयान्नज ||४४||

If you have any doubt please tell me. I will try to solve it. Regards Vivekchotaliya (talk) 12:02, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

Ans to Vivekchotaliya: Well You really have find a book from another cult swaminarayan sect, which has no references and way too many discrepancy between actual sanskrit text.

I spent great amount of time to find the right information. Link provided in above response, moulded the words to show swaminarayan a more superior than others.

Dear friend, visit this link for more information, and find Ch 18 Sloks No : 42,43,44. Visit this link http://is1.mum.edu/vedicreserve/puranas/skanda_purana/skanda_purana_02vaishnava_09vasudeva.pdf

sanskrit

In the link that I provided, you will find that sloks preceding the #42 will match exactly, but sloks #42, 43, 44 have been twisted. It just points at the thing that swaminarayan sects are pure cult, and should be avoided. I'm no expert in Sanskrit, but it clearly shows how cult swaminarayan sects are.

May be it will open up the eyes of the people who will read this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Swamydsp90 (talk • contribs) 04:27, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 4 April 2016

RDRG9 (talk) 15:04, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

Not done: No request made. — JJMC89 (T·C) 15:31, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 October 2016

That Bhagvan Swaminarayan was born on April 2 not the 3. 98.27.208.139 (talk) 22:09, 4 October 2016 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Topher385 (talk) 01:07, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 October 2016

Bhagvan Swaminarayan was born on April 2 1781 no April 3 1781. 98.27.208.139 (talk) 22:14, 4 October 2016 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Topher385 (talk) 01:08, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

Misquoting Sources and Misattribution

I spent the last little while going through the article and found many unfounded claims and downright misattribution. Many sources were misquoted, and plagiarized. Upon investing the actual sources, I often found no mention or link between what was claimed in the citation and the article. As responsible editors, we should try to find credible high quality sources and include the original intent of the scholars.

No amount of excellent prose and the sheer number of citations or external links has an effect on a subject's notability if the original intent is distorted (see WP:MASK). While Wikipedia encourages editors to be bold, it is important to not misuse the bold claim (see WP:BRDWRONG).

I have reworked the sources to include the original intent of the scholars. I also removed the plagiarism, and found 1-2 alternative sources to strengthen the entire Women's section. I hope this can be in the spirit of a more civil and thorough analysis of credible high quality sources.

Tardispower (talk) 16:50, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

This is a notice for Swamydsp90 to please use this talk page next time the user feels compelled to remove a balanced commentary. As I explained above, respecting WP:UNDUE is important therefore I've had to remove the commentary in the lead section that the user included. It did not include a balanced statement of facts from Gandhi's perspective violating WP:NPOV, and it was given undue weight in the first place to even be included.

Additionally, the user completely ignored the additions that included peer-reviewed scholarly work, and restored his own original inclusion which once again violated WP:NPOV. Please refrain from doing this. I have also had to remove the Dayanand Saraswati commentary since the text cited, and even the claims cited do not satisfy WP:RS and seem to fall into the WP:FRNG. Swamydsp90 is asked to engage in a proper discussion here on the talk page before future inclusions and edits. The user has been issued a warning on their talk page, which holds 4 previous warning by various editors over the last year who have noticed a similar behavior. Tardispower (talk) 20:43, 8 October 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

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Swaminarayan notforumming

With respect to the editors who already replied, I've removed several sections from this page containing what seemed to be text dumps of a religious text, which while it appears to be either in public domain or hosted in its original language under a CC-compatible license, it was not properly attributed, and the editor who had been repeatedly posting it has been temporarily blocked. Please do not add the content back. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 17:49, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

"Restoring law and order" section neutrality

This does not read as a neutral passage:

"During the time when Swaminarayan came to Gujarat, the law and order situation of Gujarat was in worst ever. Neither British government nor local kings were able to control the robberies, killings, internal conflicts, rapes, and other uncultured events in Kathiyawar, Kutch and Gujarat. Upon reaching to Gujarat, Swaminarayan by His preaching and super natural divine power restored noted notorious criminals as normal civilians. These criminals left their evil nature and started living life with high moral values to the extent that they would never rob, or kill any living being. Even they would not see the unknown women or would not drink alcohol and be strict vegetarian"

Could somebody with more historical knowledge rewrite this portion to reflect WP:NPOV?. Mr. Anon515 16:48, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 October 2019

Change Yamunacarya hyperlink to Yamunacharya. The Spelling is missing an H. Harsh Modi 20 (talk) 15:01, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

 Done: see Special:Diff/923496204. Thanks, NiciVampireHeart 22:38, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

Shamynalayan fakeness

As above. laxmikant (talk) 09:11, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

Merge

This article needs to be merged with Swaminarayan (spiritual tradition).Editor2020 (talk) 03:15, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

Withdraw suggestion. Being handled by Moksha88. Editor2020 (talk) 22:50, 22 December 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 August 2020

HEAD3535 (talk) 20:39, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Bhagwan Swaminarayan also known as Sahajanand Swami, taught teachings of dharma, ahimsa and brahmacharya. He is the supreme god. Bhagwan Swaminarayan was born as Ghanshyam Maharaj in Chhapaiya, India in 1781. In 1792, he began a seven-year pilgrimage across India at the age of 11 years, adopting the name Nilkanth Varni. In 1800, he was appointed as the head of the sampraday by his guru, Ramanand Swami, and was given the name Sahajanand Swami. He built six sikkarbadh mandirs in his lifetime and appointed 500 paramahamsas in one night. In 1826, Bhagwan Swaminarayan wrote the Shikshapatri, a book of commands. He went back to his abode, Akshardham on 1 June 1830 and was cremated in Lakshmi Vadi, Gujarat. Before his death, Swaminarayan appointed Gunatitananand Swami his first successor. Childhood as Ghanshyam Maharaj Bhagwan Swaminarayan was born on April 3rd, 1781 (Chaitra Sud 9, Samvat 1837) in Chhapaiya. Bhagwan Swaminarayan was named Ghanshyam by Markande Muni, His parents were Dharmadev and Bhaktimata. The birth of Bhagwan Swaminarayan was on the same day as Ram Navmi. Bhagwan Swaminarayan had an elder brother, Rampratapbhai, and a younger brother, Ichcharambhai. He mastered the the Vedas, the Upanishads, the Puranas, the Ramayana, and the Mahabharata by the age of seven Travels as Nilkanth Varni After the death of his parents, Ghanshyam Maharaj left his home on 29 June 1792 (Ashadh Sud 10, Samvat 1849) at the age of 11. He took the name Nilkanth Varni while on his journey. Nilkanth Varni travelled across India and parts of Nepal in search of an ashram, or hermitage, that practiced what he considered a correct understanding of What is Jiva? What is Ishvara? What is Maya? What is Brahman? What is Parabrahman? While on his journey, Nilkanth Varni mastered Ashtanga yoga under Gopal Yogi. In Nepal, he met King Rana Bahadur Shah and cured him of his stomach illness. As a result, the king freed all the ascetics he had imprisoned. In 1799, after a seven-year journey, Nilkanth's travels ended in Loj, Gujarat. In Loj, Nilkanth Varni met Muktanand Swami. Nilkanth decided to stay for the opportunity to meet Ramanand Swami, whom he met a few months after his arrival in Gujarat.

Sahajanand Swami Maharaj ni Jay! 

Nilkanth's understanding of the metaphysical and epistemological concepts of the pancha-tattvas (five eternal elements), together with his mental and physical discipline, inspired senior sadhus of Ramanand Swami Nilkanth Varni received diksha from Ramanand Swami on 20 October 1800, and with it was granted the names Sahajanand Swami and Narayan Muni to signify his new status

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Aasim 00:49, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 August 2020

1. Change 'HariKrishna Maharaj' under 'other names' to 'Harikrishna Maharaj' without the capital 'K' which is the correct grammar to be used. 2. Add 'Shri Hari' to 'other names' 3. Add 'Shriji Maharaj' to 'other names' TP9696 (talk) 17:34, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ◢  Ganbaruby!  (Say hi!) 07:15, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

The security of this page

Hello, I wanted to falk on the important issue regarding this page, few days before the editing for this page was locked to prevent vandalism, the team has once again unlocked this option which for editing, I would like to give a suggestion regarding this page to please make sure that this page doesn't get vandalized or misinterpreted just how the Wikipedia page of swaminarayan sampraday was filled with full of bias knowledge. Also I have seen that in previous edits, one person had tried to defame lord Swaminarayan by quoting the citations of dayanand saraswati's book which is completely biased and talks only about aryasamaji ideology, I would request the team working on this page to make sure that there are no major changes taking place in this page except some few things, just how last time some people had claimed swaminarayan to be castiest person, therefore I had to edit that part as the person had written it with only half knowledge so I had to correct that part of the article to explain the original reality, I request you to please take care of this page and protect it from Biased editing of some haters and people of other swaminarayan organizations which are offshoots...... Desi samurai (talk) 13:27, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

A spelling correction regarding my previous message :-

• talk Desi samurai (talk) 13:29, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

Sock-farm

See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Moksha88 and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard#Systematic NPOV review needed in the BAPS topic area. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 07:27, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 July 2021

Can you show citations to validate that “Brahmin” priests were conducting animal sacrifices in the 1800s according to vedic rituals? 2601:641:400:3120:A81D:1A7E:8F45:DEA5 (talk) 05:57, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

You didn't notice the sources in the article? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 07:24, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 February 2022

Please add following fundamental philosophy of Swaminarayan Bhagwan. It is stated in Vachanmrut Gad-1-69. That dharma, aartha, Kama can achieved by violence but for Moskha, non violence MUST be followed. This is the reason why Major Hindu Gods/Godesss promote vegetarian satvic lifestyle. This is why India will become a meat free nation in coming years… 64.53.205.192 (talk) 07:14, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 10:22, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

Issues

TrangaBellam (talk) 18:10, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

Like: "Why is this a "Good article"?" Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 03:48, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

The main source is Raymond Williams, a notorious hagiographer. I will post a note soon. TrangaBellam (talk) 12:51, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 July 2021

Can you show citations to validate that “Brahmin” priests were conducting animal sacrifices in the 1800s according to vedic rituals? 2601:641:400:3120:A81D:1A7E:8F45:DEA5 (talk) 05:57, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

You didn't notice the sources in the article? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 07:24, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 February 2022

Please add following fundamental philosophy of Swaminarayan Bhagwan. It is stated in Vachanmrut Gad-1-69. That dharma, aartha, Kama can achieved by violence but for Moskha, non violence MUST be followed. This is the reason why Major Hindu Gods/Godesss promote vegetarian satvic lifestyle. This is why India will become a meat free nation in coming years… 64.53.205.192 (talk) 07:14, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 10:22, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

Issues

TrangaBellam (talk) 18:10, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

Like: "Why is this a "Good article"?" Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 03:48, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

The main source is Raymond Williams, a notorious hagiographer. I will post a note soon. TrangaBellam (talk) 12:51, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

Grammatical references to Lord Swaminarayan

As a god, He should be referenced with Capitalisation, such as He, Him, His. I have tried to edit this and found article is locked. Hari.kara (talk) 14:00, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

Not done. He's an ascetic/saint, not the Supreme God to be addressed so. Rasnaboy (talk) 16:47, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

Reworking

Hello all - was thinking of adding some substantial edits to the article. Flow seems choppy. Actionjackson09 (talk) 02:24, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 March 2023

કોમુરમ ભીમ (talk) 12:43, 15 March 2023 (UTC) Bhagwan swaminarayan.jpg I Want to Edit New Image of Lord Swaminarayan. Please give me Permission 😭😭😭

 Not done: this is not the right page to request additional user rights. You may reopen this request with the specific changes to be made and someone may add them for you, or if you have an account, you can wait until you are autoconfirmed and edit the page yourself. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:46, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

@કોમુરમ ભીમ: Additionally, if you're going to suggest a new image for the page, it needs to be an image that is under a free license or that you took yourself. You cannot just grab pictures from websites and try to use them without respecting the sites' copyrights. —C.Fred (talk) 01:13, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

The birthdate of lord swaminarayan is wrong

in the article the date is 3rd april but according to my research with few people and this article from official website https://www.swaminarayan.faith/articles/biography-of-lord-swaminarayan It is 2nd April Please correct it as soon as possible 2405:201:2005:782E:A0A9:FE69:A8C7:D9C6 (talk) 22:16, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 April 2023

Expand this page further — Preceding unsigned comment added by ભાવિક (talk • contribs) 05:01, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

Blatant POV pushing

The article has been edited by many editors to POV push against BAPS and other sampradayas in favor of the Laxmi Narayan and Nar Narayan Gadis. This is evident through the edits and through the names of one major editor which is Gaybaps. This needs an investigation into POV pushing and an article rewrite. 2600:4040:60AC:6500:8C19:148D:3902:DD16 (talk) 01:12, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

Serious? This article was hijacked by a BAPS-sock-puppeteer; we've seen enough already of this attitude here. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:01, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

There was a sockpuppet against other sampradyas after those sockpuppets. There is no reason to be biased against any of them. We need to remove certain biases in this article. Specifically, we need to revert the change in the introduction of Swaminarayan as a manifestation of Krishna as majority of Swaminarayan followers believe him to be either a manifestation of Krishna or Vishnu or a Manifestation of supreme god. Then original edit was better and we should reach a consensus on wether we should change this or keep it as is. Ram112313 (talk) 16:12, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

agreed 2405:201:2005:782E:A0A9:FE69:A8C7:D9C6 (talk) 22:20, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

I am follower of Swaminarayan sect. And I know what is written about Swaminarayan in the ancient scripture Skanda Purana. But now this article cannot be edited, please remove this protection.And make it editable. I will surely help you in this. I promise to add accurate and unbiased information. ભાવિક (talk) 05:09, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

Reverts

{{yo|ભાવિક]] I reverted your edits diff, beacuse you removed sourced info and WP:RS, and replaced them with two WP:PRIMARY sources. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 11:39, 7 May 2023 (UTC)