Talk:Stele of Ankh-ef-en-Khonsu

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Sources[edit]

The following claim is sourced incorrectly:

The designation of this object as the Stele of Revealing was given in April 1904 by the occultist Aleister Crowley, in connection with his Book of the Law.[9]

[9] Skinner, Stephen (ed). The Magical Diaries of Aleister Crowley: Tunisia 1923, p. 79, n. 8. Weiser, 1996. ISBN 0-87728-856-9

Note 8 on page 79 of The Magical Diaries of Aleister Crowley: Tunisia 1923 states: 8: Rabelais was one of Crowley’s heroes. His five books about the adventures of Gargantua and Pantagruel provided Crowley with part of his philosophic basis for the Law of Thelema.

Oh2hr (talk) 13:31, 16 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

So far, I found a pretty good source that says the museum existed: http://www.egyptianmuseum.gov.eg/about_history.html But I've yet to see a web site actually state they had, or have it.

I'm having trouble locating anything relating to this matter, in the way of valid sources. I'll keep trying though!

Zos 02:24, 13 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I wondering if any thelemite will come out and say this... It "appears", that I can't find any evidence of this stele existing outside of thelema. Its not listed in the museum its supposed to be in, nor can i find where it is right this very minute. The closest I can come, is the Stelae of Ra. Which looks alot like it. http://www.hethert.org/stelaeofra.htm

Also. Khonsu (Khons) 

A moon god. Together with Amon and Mut, as mother and father, they form the triad of Thebes. Represented as a man, with a disk on his head or with the head of a falcon

Khonsu Dn19 

Son of Sennedjem, the artisan of Deir el-Medina. Like his father he held the title "servant in the place of truth" which is a title borne by the inhabitants of Deir el-Medina. He was buried in his father's tomb.

This is the only thing i can find on the priest thats supposed to be represented in the stele in question, and is taken from the glossary of the gyptian museum, which is Boulaq. It's also interesting to note here, that Knonsu Dn19 brings me back to Deir el-Medina, which, was the third stele on the Stelae of Ra website. http://www.hethert.org/stelaeofra.htm

(3) Stela of Djed-amon-iu-ankh, Thebes, Deir el-Bahari, Third Intermediate Period, stuccoed and painted wood, in Saleh's The Egptian Museum Cairo: Official Catalog, pl. 243

I'd like it, if anyone can clear this matter up. Since this stele of revealing is central to the role of Thelema, I'd like to think there is more evidence here for this article (if not the fact that it appears Crowley made it all up?) As well as evidence of an egyptian priest, namely, Ankh-af-na-Khonsu. Also, any evidence of the combination of Ra-Hoor, and any variations being used outside of thelema would help.

Zos 11:05, 13 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There is no doubt in my mind that the Stele exists and is in the Cairo museum. I saw it in person in January 1983. I believe its catalogue number was 9422. Anlala (talk) 22:09, 25 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I believe I came across this while I was doing a search. I didn't think it could be used per wp:cite an all, which is why I'm looking for people outside of thelema-ism to provide the actual evidence. But as far as people "in' thelema, their sources dont seem to hold up either. Theres an issue with this Bugs Bey (i forget the exact spelling), hes supposed to be the curator or person running the Boulaq at the time, and he had a guy translate it into french, but I cant find any books about this at all. I am truly at a loss. Zos 07:32, 27 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I think part of the problem is that, though the Stele is very very important to Thelemites, it is not in the least bit important to the Egyptian Museum nor to scholarly Egyptologists - so there's really no reason any reliable academic sources (for example) will have anything to say about it. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 07:50, 27 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah. I recently contacted the Egyptian Museum, asking them if they can tell me "anything" relating to this, and Crowley. They have yet to get back to me! Zos 07:57, 27 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I feel a bit confused. We have pictures of the stele. I think we could show that some of them predate the existence of Photoshop. Do you mean to say we can't prove Crowley didn't make the object himself? Dan 22:33, 9 June 2006 (UTC) Addition: Mr. Alpha cites Abd el Hamid Zayed, "Painted Wooden Stelae in the Cairo Museum," Revue d'egyptologie 20 (1968), pp. 149-152, and plate 7.[reply]
Just to bring this discussion up-to-date, the stele features in El-Leithy, Painted Wooden Stelae From Thebes in Proceedings of the Ninth International Congress of Egyptologists by Jean Claude Goyon, Christine Cardin, published by Peeters Publishers, 2007, ISBN 9042917172. Ankhefenkhons (talk) 23:52, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I also don't know what you mean by "the combination of Ra-Hoor". See Ra, Horus, and Eye of Horus. Dan 05:32, 10 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

What I think I was saying, was that I'd like to see citations. No one has written about the Stele? I was requesting citations, from non thelemites, outside sources. Zos 19:19, 14 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

And I passed along a citation that I plan to check when I have time to physically examine that issue of the periodical, or get someone to do it for me. Dan 17:36, 16 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Here is a link to Lashtal , with at least 4 people having independantly seen it in the Egyptian museum in Cairo in the last year http://www.lashtal.com/nuke/PNphpBB2-viewtopic-t-1494.phtml (its still in Room 22) Osymandus 93 93/93

  • Found a site that might point someone in the right direction.
www.duaut.net provides photographs of the Stele with other artifacts and presumably with the sarcophagi of Ankh-f-n-khonsu. More interestingly there are scans from a couple books that catalog the Stele (link 1 (french), link 2 (english)). The second link provides scans of a few pages. The item numbered 666 on page 176 is obviously not the Stele, but it does appear later on page 302. (Supposedly this is a problem between English and French numberings at the time.) The second entry has the following:
"Lastly (n 666) a stela of painted wood written on both sides and bearing the name Ankhufnikhonsu, priest of Montu"
Presumably, this is similar to what the French scan says as:
"Enfin on remarquera (666) une stéle en bois peint, opisthographe, au nom d'Ankhefenkhonsou pretre de Mentou"
If this book can be verified that would be nice.
Loret, Victor. Catalogue du Musée de Gizeh. 1878 e.v.
Maspero, Gaston. Guide to the Cairo Museum. 1903 e.v.
Bodhi.root 07:14, 12 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The problem with the numbering of the catalogue could well be a result of the catalogue being redefined over the years with items selling to other musea (and perhaps individuals) and other items being purchased. 85.159.97.4 (talk) 15:05, 3 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Crowley Says[edit]

What I do know is this: [Equinox of the Gods]

Brugsch Bey of the Boulak Museum dined with us once to discuss the Stele in his charge, and to arrage for its "abstruction." His French assistant curator, who translated the hieroglyphs on the Stele for us.

That's de:Emil Brugsch-Bey, the brother of Heinrich Karl Brugsch. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 08:03, 27 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Wonderful. I never thought to look into other languages! Although, good lord, which ones which? Either Crowley got the name wrong (whats knew?), or he was refering to his brother? This is actually adding to the already complex situation surrounding this stelea. But it helps to have some sort of reference. Thanks! Zos 08:10, 27 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
No. Its got to be Emil Brugsch. Hes the only one that was alive at the time of the supposed dictation of the Book of the Law. Zos 08:15, 27 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
And he appears to be the one referred to as Brugsch Bey. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 15:04, 27 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Egyptologist Emile Brugsch has a wiki page. See the external link on that page to read about where the 'Bey' (a title, not a name) came from. That's likely the person Crowley met. Aleister Wilson (talk) 14:02, 6 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]


El-Leithy[edit]

So Ankh, what does this new source actually say? I couldn't find any relevant excerpt through Google Books. Dan (talk) 05:50, 20 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]


Two different discovery dates[edit]

From the article:

"...is a painted, wooden offering stele, discovered in 1858 at the mortuary temple of Hatshepsut at Dayr al-Bahri"

"It was discovered in 1854 as part of a large burial of priests of Montu at Dayr al-Bahr..."

So is it 1854 or 1858?

209.134.115.5 (talk) 20:25, 20 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Contradiction about the stele's location[edit]

In the article we see “the stele was moved around 1902 to the Egyptian Museum of Cairo ... where it remains today”, yet later it states that Aleister Crowley and Rose Edith Kelly saw it in Boulaq museum in 1904. How do you explain this? 95.69.234.63 (talk) 12:58, 3 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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Location???[edit]

The opening paragraph beings by stating the Stele is located in Thebes, then ends by saying it's in Cairo. 108.200.234.93 (talk) 11:15, 27 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I guess I get to be bold and change it. 108.200.234.93 (talk) 19:10, 29 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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