Talk:Shortbread

Why call this a biscuit?

Should be cookie, more people speak American English -- (Anon)

thats not true how many people in the commonwealth which includes india with 1.4 billion people speak in a dialect derived from British English? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.96.14.189 (talk) 11:42, 29 September 2016 (UTC)

I suppose because it is a UK recipe so you use UK English. Interestingly, or course, 'cookie' is from a dutch word for 'cake' so you could argue that cookie is a good word to use for shortCAKE. BTW I didn't write the question in the first place, but whoever did didn't sign it.

Ewan carmichael 13:08, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Because it isn't a cookie. Shortbread doesn't undergo any rising when it bakes, as cookies that contain baking powder or soda do. Ewan's explanation reinforces this - cakes rise when they bake.

Excuse me, this should be marked as a fictional biscuit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.122.63.142 (talk) 17:52, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Whether cookie or biscuit (I favour this last term since it's not an American recipe), it is delicious and this discussion doesn't help improve the article!! The number of people speaking a dialect of a language is not an argument to drop genuine use of words in their suitable contexts. --TICmaite8 (talk) 20:20, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Plus a cookie in Scotland is a rather different kind of biscuit from shortbread. So a cookie is a biscuit and shortbread is a biscuit. But shortbread is not a cookie and a cookie is not shortbread.-- Derek Ross | Talk 07:22, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

What WOULD help the article is at least a mention that it is called a cookie by lots of English speakers. It doesn't matter where the recipe comes from: what does matter is ensuring that people who read this article from whereever can understand what it is talking about. In Canada shortbread might be many things, but among them it is most definitely a cookie. Richardson mcphillips (talk) 19:09, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

This article is written in American English. The American English name should be made standard, with a British nomenclature in parentheses. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.47.58.92 (talk) 02:10, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

Shortbread is not a cookie, by any country's definition (except maybe, per above comment, Canada. but these are the same people that call thinly sliced ham "bacon" and eat catsup flavoured potato chips, so don't know how much credibility they ought be affordee.. ;P ). anyway, cookies are made with eggs and baking soda, among other ingredients. shortbread's got neither. they're not necessarily widely called 'biscuits' in the states either, mind you, but between biscuit and cookie, I think biscuit would be more accurate..the packagings just call them "rounds", "squares", "bars" etc. (as a point of thought for any other Americans that might be reading this: how would you classify a graham cracker? cookie or biscuit?) Firejuggler86 (talk) 07:57, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

@Firejuggler86, the kind of shortbread being discussed in this article, of which Walkers Shortbread is one famous example, is definitely considered a cookie in American English. I have never heard this idea that cookies need to contain eggs and baking soda. Maybe you should try to find a source for that before putting it in any article? (Hint: Chips Ahoy!, Fig Newtons, Nutter Butters, and Oreo cookies are vegan, and you'll find them all in the cookie section at your local grocery store.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:06, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

I appreciate the enthusiasm of amateur editors, however, the term "biscuit" has been used by baking professionals in the United States for many decades with reference to the ranged of baked goods that includes both cookies and crackers, as well as some other sweet baked goods that Americans casually call "cookies". A Digestive Biscuit is not actually a cookie, neither is an Animal Cracker, although it is sweet. "Nabisco" was the National Biscuit Company; Keebler was the United Biscuit Company before it was renamed Keebler. This terminology is still used in the industry today.Sedimentary (talk) 22:24, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

@Sedimentary, your comment comes across as condescending. Maybe you want to revise it?

Also, it misses the point. It doesn't matter whether a saltine is considered a biscuit in the US industry. The question is how to describe this baked good in everyday British English, not in American industry jargon. WhatamIdoing (talk) 14:48, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

I provided a credible reference for the proper use of the term "biscuit" and contrasted that with casual usage advocated by some others on this page. If that makes you feel condescended to I can't help that.Sedimentary (talk) 23:02, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

You provided a link to a report about industry jargon in the United States, which is not a credible source for information about what things are called in everyday language in Great Britain. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:33, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

References

differences with shortcake

The last sentence of this article is in contradiction to the shortcake article. There it says that shortcake can have butter in too. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Matthew Matic (talk • contribs) 09:19, 24 March 2006‎

yes...but shortcake is cake. it's also got milk and baking powder in it. (ironically, shortcake is quite similar to the thing that 'biscuit' usually means in America) Firejuggler86 (talk) 08:01, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

general inaccuracies

The baking guidelines are incorrect in that, whilst shortbread is baked slowly, it needn't be merely light gold or white. Some of the nicest shortbread (ie the stuff that I make) is a reasonably dark on top making it crispy on the outside and slightly chewy inside. I propose that the comment is changed.

The comment about shapes is incorrect, or are the shortbread shapes that I made figments of my imagination? The fact that, as the article states, the dough is firm and holds its shape well, means that any shape can be made out of shortbread. For example, at Christmas people make stars and Christmas tree shapes. Oh yes, and you don't cut peticoat tails as soon as they are out of the oven because you can't get the shortbread of of the tin without it breaking then - you have to wait until it is cold and solid before cutting. Perhaps you could if you have baked a moulded version on a baking sheet rather than one in a round tin with wavy edges.

Lastly, many shortbread recipes add additional ingredients (reducing the amount of flour accordingly) to influence the texture of the shortbread. Fine semolina is added to make rougher shortbread, whereas rice flour is use to make finer crisper shortbread.

If no-one objects I will revise the article to reflect these facts.

Ewan carmichael 12:59, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Origin of name

Based on the Online Etymology Dictionary entry (linked in References), I have changed the article to reflect that the name shortbread refers to texture, not shortening. At least, that's how I interpret the entry. And it makes more sense to me that the dish would be named for its texture, rather than for a particular ingredient (why not "butterbread" then?) GeoGreg 21:28, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

So does the term Shortenin' Bread as in the old song come after deriving the term "shortening" from shortbread? Eitherway this dish (I assume its the same dish as shortbread--just a name variant) seems to be named for a particular ingredient and not its texture.Halconen (talk) 16:36, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Formula

I (some random reader) would like to add that, despite this page's claim that the 1-2-3 method is traditional, an easy majority of the many recipes I found online when I was learning to make it seemed to be 1-2-4. Is there substance to the notion that 1-2-3 is the "usual" or traditional way to make shortbread? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.63.216.122 (talk) 23:51, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps 1-2-3 gives the proportions for the more traditional recipe with oatmeal (which I'm going to try out soon!). Janko (talk) 16:05, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Long time reader first time commenter so forgive me if I make some grievous formatting error in this talk page, but if the 1-2-3 proportion uses oatmeal flour then I think the article should say so. I did 1-2-3 with all purpose flour wheat earlier today because I trusted this website, and the batter was very creamy and unworkable. How many others in the past nine years have made this very same mistake for this very same reason? 2601:643:8102:7C20:E047:1362:799:5B0 (talk) 03:44, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

Are you all going by volume, or by weight? I think the 1-2-3 formula is by weight. I had used to always start with 1-2-3 by volume, then continue to add flour till it was the right consistency. now I've pretty much settled at 1-2-4 Firejuggler86 (talk) 08:08, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Drömmar

Swedish drömmar/dreams reeaally isnt like short bread at all. not ... at all. ... im. swedish and. i mean theyre .. just not. 83.248.33.160 (talk) 02:08, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

It looks like there are several versions of drömmar cookies, including some that incorporate ingredients like coconut, almonds, or cardamon. Perhaps you're used to these styles? WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:50, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

hm. I suppose I've only had the chemical commercial ones as of late, ... real ones do seem to be just like short bread. I'll remove this section in three days. 83.248.33.160 (talk) 17:28, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm not convinced that drömmar are shortbread; for one thing, even the plain/unflavored recipes seem to use a leavening agent, which is never the case with proper shortbread. But I don't feel like I know enough to say that the recipes I found online are representative. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:18, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

First recipe

@Matt Lunker, do you have access to the cited book? If you read that section, you can see that it's all about shortbread, both before and after that section; the fact that the original title of the old recipe says "To make short Cakes" at the top does not mean that this is what we call shortcake today. (For one thing, Shortcake is leavened, and there's no leavening in that recipe.) She then goes on to talk about the limited connection to Mary and to name Mrs Frazer's The Practice of Cookery, Pastry, Pickling, Preserving, &c. (Dublin, 1791) as possibly being the first to use the name 'short bread'. I don't think it's reasonable to assume that the author talks for two pages about shortbread, dumped a non-shortbread recipe on the page, and then proceeded on for another page about shortbread. The names of foods may change over the centuries, but we can count on scholarly books to be organized.

BTW, A History of British Baking: From Blood Bread to Bake-Off was written by a food historian and published by a publisher that specializes in history. The source you are preferring is a lifestyle article that probably never even got fact checked, and it only claims that the 1736 recipe is "what appears to be the first printed recipe" – not that it definitely is the oldest. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:17, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

The reference you provided, to "A History of British Baking: From Blood Bread to Bake-Off (Pen & Sword, 2020) pp. 113–114" indicates a supporting quote: "Despite the endless citations linking Mary Queen of Scots with 'Petticoat tails', I cannot find any legitimate or authentic links with shortbread and its conception in Scotland. Admittedly, during the 1700s it was the predominant country of manufacture, but not solely and certainly not the first to." It would appear to be unrelated to the matter of the Dawson recipe. If you intended a different passage or a different publication, we are not just in the dark about the supposedly supporting material but actively, if presumably unintentionally, misled.

You also used this ref with the quote for two more of your additions, one where it appeared pertinent, another where it didn't and, as discussed in my edit summaries and in reply to you on my talk page, there are other instances where your refs have indicated entirely unrelated passages. It's not up to us to try and work out what you really meant. I took some considerable time and effort to straighten out your careless editing here and not for the first time. I may be more inclined to do a straight revert next time.

Shortbread and shortcake are not the same thing. Our shortcake article indicates the very same recipe as being, straighforwardly, for shortcake. From the primary source, the ingredients and method could indicate a multitude of baked goods, so it is not for us to speculate.

I did not provide the source re 1736 and, as it is behind a paywall, do not know its specifics but you have indicated a citation which is patently wrong for your contention. Mutt Lunker (talk) 21:17, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Shall I remove the quotation for you, since the pages in the book apply to several different facts, but the quoted text only applies to one bit? Would that make it easier for you? WhatamIdoing (talk) 09:13, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

No. Again, "If you wish to support two entirely different matters with two different passages on two different pages, insert two different citations, as I have now done for you." Mutt Lunker (talk) 21:06, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

The Shortcake article mentions the very same recipe as the first use of "the term", not the first for "this kind of baked good". WhatamIdoing (talk) 09:32, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

Either way, the recipe is not clearly shortbread so don't state that it is. Mutt Lunker (talk) 21:06, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

Walkers in history

Walker's Shortbread is one of the most important manufacturers of shortbread in the world. It "undoubtedly is the best known shortbread manufacturer" and gets called "historic" and "iconic". Why shouldn't it get mentioned in the history section?

(I assume your edit summary of "ref bears no relation to text" means you can't read the source. The book says "Shortbread is also a prized part of Walkers baking heritage and has been since the late 1800s.") WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:32, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Per above your edit provides the very same incorrect and irrelevant citation: "Despite the endless citations linking Mary Queen of Scots with 'Petticoat tails', I cannot find any legitimate or authentic links with shortbread and its conception in Scotland. Admittedly, during the 1700s it was the predominant country of manufacture, but not solely and certainly not the first to." No mention of Walkers. Mutt Lunker (talk) 21:25, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

@Mutt Lunker, do you see the name of the company in this sentence which I am quoting for you right here?

"Shortbread is also a prized part of Walkers baking heritage and has been since the late 1800s"

I've put it in bold for you. Note that books normally contain more than one passage in them. WhatamIdoing (talk) 09:12, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

Your citation actively states that the support is from an entirely different passage.

One of many manufacturers of shortbread, if a major one, started doing so in a particular period? I don't see why this is singled out for note. Mutt Lunker (talk) 21:10, 5 July 2023 (UTC)