Talk:Salvador Allende/Archive 9
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THIS QUOTE NEEDS A SOURCE
Allende had a long affair with his private secretary, Miria Contreras Bell (known as "La Payita"). Contreras moved to Cuba after the coup and returned to Chile in 1990. She died in 2002. That's from the section "legacy and debate." No matter how long this alleged "affair" supposedly lasted, this claim needs a source. It could just be a political attack from a rightist POV Pusher who wants to degrade Salvador Allende. In fact, there is no source even specifying this woman even existed, let alone had an affair with a respected Chilean ex-president. If you cannot get a valid source (Pinochet propoganda doesn't count), then it should be removed. 172.159.73.22(talk) 18:10, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
- Apart from the several books and articles of memories that have been published in the last 5 months by members of his entourage (including some of his bodyguards and his former son-in-law), you can find at least 5 major newspaper articles on his womanizing in all the major Chilean newspapers, that have been published in the last year alone. I agree that the quote should be referenced clearly, but beyond that the point has been clearly proven time and again. --Mel Romero (talk) 01:38, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
Well, just for the record, I'm not specifically trying to say he never had an affair (the article clearly defines a source to prove that another allegation is true), however, I have removed this quote and will continue to remove it until a source can be cited for it. Why not? It had been hanging around for too long with an ugly "Citation needed", and if a source can not be cited to prove it true, then I doubt it will be allowed back. 172.215.89.181 22:31, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
Pronunciation
Is his name pronounced, literally, as "Allende" or is it pronounced "a-YEN-day?" Because I've heard both ways being used by various people. If there is a distinction, the article should mention that to non-Spanish speaking editors (as it does at Hugo Chavez). Thanks, Sporker (talk) 11:50, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Dubious Allegations
Mel Romero, as you constantly revert any attempt to remove the dubious statements inserted by the anonymousUser:71.110.27.188, I'd like to know where you imagine the sources to be. I have checked the footnotes nearest to the disputed passages as well as the external links and found nothing.--Fan of Freedom (talk) 20:09, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
- Where I imagined the sources to be? You surely jest... anyway, if I must justify the truth, go to the page Death of Salvador Allende (which is properly listed in the text of this article), and there you will find a list of the witnesses to the suicide, and a long list of other sources from where you can follow the events. Also you can check declarations from his widow and daughters acknowledging the suicide. The list is endless, so please, stop trying to rewrite history to suit your own personal agenda. Mel Romero (talk) 01:49, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
- The suicide issue was only one point. The disputed edits contain a whole bunch of accusations. Where is the source for the alleged presence of the Stasi and the Cuban intelligence? In such a disputed article you can't just redirect others to search in other articles. Insert the references yourself if they are that easy to find.
- And by the way, I would be happy to solve this dispute without personal attacks.--Fan of Freedom(talk) 23:00, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
I only intended to incorporate the information about the suicide of Allende. If by mistake I had let in another extemporaneous information, I sincerely apologize. I also expect this exchange of opinions not to be a matter of personal attacks.Mel Romero (talk) 09:25, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
"Where is the source for the alleged presence of the Stasi and the Cuban intelligence?"
I have never heard of any documents mentioning operations of the German Stasi in Chile, there are however, many intelligence documents, lectures and interviews, from american, soviet and cuban sources, which prove DGI (cuban intelligence) and KGB support for Allende's government and foreign involvement in chilean affairs.Agrofelipe (talk) 00:20, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
Foreign involvement in Chile during Allende's Term
What about Cuban involvement and other Soviet ones different than individual contacts with Allende? The paragraph is biased.Xx236 (talk) 08:12, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
U.S. Involvement/ Corporate Business Interests
In terms of the U.S. involvement section, I think this article should expand on the U.S. business interests since that was largely responsible for why the U.S. was involved in the first place. I've done research on this topic for several classes, here's what I would like to add:
The most prominent U.S. corporations in Chile were the Anaconda and Kennecott Copper companies, and ITT, International Telephone and Telegraph. Both the copper corporations aimed to expand privatized copper production in the city of El Teniente, Chile, the world’s largest underground copper mine. At the end of 1968, according to Department of Commerce data, U.S. corporate holdings in Chile amounted to $964 million. Anaconda and Kennecott accounted for 28% of U.S. holdings, but ITT had by far the largest holding of any single corporation, with an investment of $200 million in Chile. In 1970, before Allende was elected, ITT owned 70% of Chitelco, the Chilean Telephone Company and funded El Mercurio, a Chilean right-wing newspaper. Documents released in 2000 by the CIA confirmed that before the elections of 1970, ITT gave $700,000 to Allende’s conservative opponent, Jorge Allesandri, with help from the CIA on how to channel the money safely. ITT president Harold Geneen also offered $1 million to the CIA to help defeat Allende in the elections.
Reference: Brandt, Daniel. “U.S. Responsibility for the Coup in Chile.” Namebase. 28 November 1988. <http://www.namebase.org/chile.html>
“Blockading Chile’s Copper.” Time 6 November 1972. <http://www.time.com/time/printout/0,8816,942616,00.html>.
--Aquarius28 (talk) 01:46, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
I can see why relevancy is disputed. With a little polishing, it could quite easily become like the pieces of American propaganda so frequently used by the mass media as 'fact'.
121.79.208.3 (talk) 00:06, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
Death
It surprises me that this wikipedia article talks of Allende's death as if he did indeed commit suicide. I've read about 6 books and plenty of articles on Chile, and he was murdered during the coup. One of the books I read has details on Allende's death, which I would like to add:
Six or seven minutes past 2 P.M. on September 11, 1973, Salvador Allende was shot dead. An infiltration patrol of the San Bemardo Infantry School commanded by Captain Roberto Garrido burst into the second floor of the Chilean Presidential Palace, Santiago's Palacio de La Moneda. Allende was shot at least 6 times in the abdomen and lower stomach region while the palace was bombed.
Reference: http://www.rrojasdatabank.org/murder10.htm Sanford, Rojas, ed. The Murder of Allende. New York: Harper & Row, 1975.
--Aquarius28 (talk) 01:46, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
There were at least 3 witnesses to Allende's suicide (all of them members of his party). The Rojas' book has been highly criticized for its lack of investigative professionalism. The Allende article in Spanish has a much more accurate description of his death, without the bias of the English version. —Preceding unsigned comment added by71.191.204.207 (talk) 22:53, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
--User:Non Registered User (User talk:Non Registered User) 01:46, 17 June 2008 (UTC) —Precedingunsigned comment added by 90.194.215.188 (talk) I am also surprised to see Allende's death referenced as a murder, when indeed his family and personal body guard recognized several years ago he commit suicide with a machine gun (a gift from fidel Castro) by shooting himself in the head. Please see in example "Admite hija de Allende suicidio de su padre" (Allende's daughter admits his father's suicide), published in 'El Universal' (mexican newspaper, www2.eluniversal.com.mx) on August 17, 2003 or "Testimonio: El Suicidio de Allende" (Testimony: Allende's suicide) written by Frida Modak and published in 'Diario Internacional' (www.eldiariointernacional.com) o September 18, 2007. —Preceding unsigned comment added by90.194.215.188 (talk) 01:18, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
To Do List
Lets list the problems with the article and make it neutral who wants to start?Profitoftruth85 (talk) 06:14, 29 July 2008 (UTC) Well , I have already started. Guess you'll have to follow my example. :-D
Aprill809
20:13, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
Removal of POV and Disputed tags
The POV and Disputed tags that until a moment ago graced this page were added by a non-registered user (68.237.10.139) with no other edits. No specific allegations of POV or factual inaccuracy were made at the time, and as far as I can tell there are no ongoing disputes of either kind. In fact, the last dispute on this page resulted in some good edits and a well written, NPOV section.
As such, I went ahead and removed the POV and Disputed tags. Feel free to put them up again if you disagree. -Haunti Talk 05:02, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
Take a look at this page for me.75.159.67.103 (talk) 21:54, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
Cuban / Soviet involvement
I think you shoud add to the article, in addition to the cuban money, that the cuban government gave to Allende smuggled weapons, 3 to 4 thousand of AK-47 cuban assault rifles, that were delivered without passing trough the customhouse to the UP with the help of the cuban attache to Salvador Allende's government Patricio de la Guardia, with the full knowledge of Allende and the UP`s inner circle.
Apparently the scandal that it brought, once the media knew about it, was quite large.190.47.240.138 (talk) 16:55, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- Got any sources? Looks like this needs to be archived , since it was created March 09 and had no activity for two months.
Compression09KingExtreme Wikipedian 17:02, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
Please stop using false accusations based on ill documented and invented documents. The person behind the "Soviet involvement" writings is not a true Wikipedian but someone determined to distribute lies about Salvador Allende.
Please let the discussion be open otherwise visitors will think that these are real facts..
The section on Russia's alleged involvement in Chile is based on unreliable sources full of sensationalism such as the dubious "Mitrokhin Archive." This work is not taken seriously by scholars. Also, it is very disingenuous to portray Russia as meddling in Chile when in fact the two countries worked on strengthening their relations. Allende's policies with Russia did not significantly differ from his predecessor President Frei. It was in February 1970 during Frei's administration when a Chilean-Russian agreement on cultural and scientific cooperation was signed. With concern to Cuba, President Frei's government made a decision to sell $10 million worth of agricultural products to the country. Hence, Allende's foreign policies were largely a continuation of Frei's. Chile's relations between Russia and Cuba were not nearly as warm as portrayed by right-wingers. Allende's government was dissapointed in the level of Russia's support. When Allende went to Moscow asking for more aid, he was turned down. Kupredu (talk) 21:06, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
"The section on Russia's alleged involvement in Chile is based on unreliable sources full of sensationalism such as the dubious Mitrokhin Archive."
On the contrary, the Mitrohkin Archive has been validated by the MI-6, the CIA and the FBI as well by intelligence analists around the world.
"This work is not taken seriously by scholars. "
Who? At least try to lie with dignity.
"it is very disingenuous to portray Russia as meddling in Chile when in fact the two countries worked on strengthening their relations."
Maybe you should open your eyes to the truth, the UP was supported by the soviets in the hope to spread their influence in Latin America, also Allende was a known puppet of the KGB, who accepted political and economic support, including bribes and gifts from the soviets in exchange for information about chilean politics, while he was in office.
"Allende's policies with Russia did not significantly differ from his predecessor President Frei."
Wrong, the ammount of credits and loans granted by the soviets had no precedent in chilean history.
"With concern to Cuba, President Frei's government made a decision to sell $10 million worth of agricultural products to the country. Hence, Allende's foreign policies were largely a continuation of Frei's. Chile's relations between Russia and Cuba were not nearly as warm as portrayed by right-wingers."
Right-wingers? what exactly do you think a right-winger is? Relations between Allende and Castro reached an unprecedented level from 1970 to 1973, including an illegal smuggling of weapons, 3000 to 4000 AK47 among other equipments, from Cuba to Chile to support Allende`s violent "revolution", the known scandal of the "cuban packages".
"Allende's government was dissapointed in the level of Russia's support. When Allende went to Moscow asking for more aid, he was turned down."
Allende was turned out AFTER the URSS had already spent hundreds of millions of dollars to support his failed government. Only in 1973, after it was obvious that Allende was going down that Moscu refused to keep wasting money on Allende.190.45.75.14 (talk) 00:38, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
You are wrong and possibly deliberately trying to distort the truth, the information of the declassified KGB documents has provided critical information to the activities of the former Soviet Union to historians and intelligence annalists and has has been unanimously validated by the intelligence services of the West.
Vasili Mitrokhin was a major in the KGB and the senior archivist that was resposible for the move of the KGB intelligence archives from the central in Lubyanka to its new facilities in Yasenevo in 1972.
It is up to you to prove otherwise, instead of just closing your eyes to reality.Agrofelipe (talk) 19:52, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
Apparently you are the one that doesn't know, bad way to start your argument.
You are wrong.
Transcriptions of classified documents. If the adjective "sloppy" makes you happy, go ahead
Is that an actual critic on the material? Can he disprove the information? NO
You need to go back and study major Mitrokhin's life. I already told you IT IS UP TO YOU TO PROVE THAT MAJOR MITROKHIN WAS NOT IN CHARGE OF THE MOVING OF THE KGB INTELLIGENCE ARCHIVES FROM LUBYANKA TO THE NEW HEADQUARTERS IN YASENEVO IN 1972. Can you do it or not?
Another loose critic. Please give something more tangible.
I have read that page, they didnt prove anything but simply casts doubts like all your other "sources", besides they are not even scholars just internet journalists
It gives an accurate idea of Allende's connection to the KGB and Cuba who by obvious reasons influenced the UP foreign relations.
Then you are a naive man. "Friendly relations" is a strange word when they were supporting politically, economically and military a puppet that was willing to extend their socialist influence in Latin America.
You weren't doing that, you just deleted them because they dint agree with your historical "truth". Besides I tell you again, the MI-6, the CIA and the FBI have analyzed the declassified documents and have unanimously agreed in their authenticity.
I ask you again. Do you even know what a "right-winger" is? Are you so desperate that you need to mention Pinochet to defend Allende?
I agree, but you are making a cartoon of them, like the Soviet Union were granting all those hundreds of millions of dollars in loans, credits, food and equipment "out of the good of their hearts".
The soviets were not stupid. After supporting Allende`s campaign and later, after his election, supporting his chaotic and failed government with hundreds of millions of dollars in loans and credits they weren't going to loose any more money on him.Agrofelipe (talk) 21:16, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
- There are serious problems with attribution, undue weight, and reliable sources. Other problems include a misinterpretation of foreign involvement. Russian political and economic support to Allende's government cannot be construed as "KGB's interference", but was an expression of two governments exercising normal relations. The scholarly source I posted on Russia's relations with Chile actually show evidence of tension between the two countries. At most, Russia gave tepid support to Allende. It is not acceptable to use sensationalist pop-fiction such as Mitrokhin's alleged notes for an analysis of Chile's foreign relations. Cite works by experts on the subject. Kupredu (talk) 21:55, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, I've been thinking for quite some time that the material you deleted was deeply flawed and excessive. Mitrokhin (and another defector, a guy named Viktor Suvorov) seem to get quoted all over Wikipedia for the most sensationalist, dubious claims, although there are serious questions about Mitrokhin, and Suvorov is completely discredited. (In an interesting symmetry, after Mitrokhin's book was published in the West, largely at the behest of MI-5, a guy named Richard Tomlinson, who had helped retrieve Mitrokhin's papers for MI-6, defected to Russia and wrote a book, possibly at the behest of SVR - but of course, Wikipedia isn't sprinkled with wild claims from Mr. Tomlinson, only from Mr. Mitrokhin.) <eleland/talkedits> 22:40, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
"Russian political and economic support to Allende's government cannot be construed as "KGB's interference""
No, they are two separate things, first KGB economic support to elected him president then russian political, economic and military support to maintain him as long as posible as president.
"but was an expression of two governments exercising normal relations."
Allende`s subservience to the USSR for their support were not "normal relations"
"The scholarly source I posted on Russia's relations with Chile actually show evidence of tension between the two countries."
Allende kept wasting the Kremlin`s money on failed policies, of course they were tension, but the russians kept supporting him anyway according to general Leonov.
"At most, Russia gave tepid support to Allende."
Hundred of millions of dollars in loans, credits, machinery, food and weapons to Allende`s government is tepid?..... do you know anything about chilean history?
"It is not acceptable to use sensationalist pop-fiction such as Mitrokhin's alleged notes for an analysis of Chile's foreign relations."
You are obviously biased in support for Allende.
You haven't even answer the question I asked you about Major Mitrokhin work at Yasenevo.Agrofelipe (talk) 03:44, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
"Yes, I've been thinking for quite some time that the material you deleted was deeply flawed and excessive. Mitrokhin (and another defector, a guy named Viktor Suvorov) seem to get quoted all over Wikipedia for the most sensationalist, dubious claims, although there are serious questions about Mitrokhin, and Suvorov is completely discredited. (In an interesting symmetry, after Mitrokhin's book was published in the West, largely at the behest of MI-5, a guy named Richard Tomlinson, who had helped retrieve Mitrokhin's papers for MI-6, defected to Russia and wrote a book, possibly at the behest of SVR - but of course, Wikipedia isn't sprinkled with wild claims from Mr. Tomlinson, only from Mr. Mitrokhin.) <"
So, can you disprove the claim made by the MI-6, the CIA and the FBI about the authenticity of the declassified KGB material? yes or not?..... obviously not.
Seems to me that only the ones without sources are the ones that are desperately trying to deny the KGB documents brought by major Mitrokhin to the west.
If anything you should at least add some source that support your claim.
By the way, was general Nikolai Leonov, former Deputy Chief of the First Chief Directorate of the State Security Committee of the KGB, lying too? unless you can disprove him you are just vandalizing the page by deleting a verfiable source Agrofelipe (talk) 03:59, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
One more thing. "Allende's predecessor President Frei improved relations with Russia and Cuba. In February 1970, Presient Frei's government signed Chile's first cultural and scientific agreement with Russia. Frei's government also agreed to sell $10 million worth of food to Cuba in 1970-71.
Allende's Popular Unity government tried to maintain normal relations with the United States"
Do you have any source to this nonsense???Agrofelipe (talk)
Attempt to conceal information about Allende and his conection to the KGB, The Soviet Union and Cuba
"The section on Russia's alleged involvement in Chile is based on unreliable sources full of sensationalism such as the dubious "Mitrokhin Archive." This work is not taken seriously by scholars. Also, it is very disingenuous to portray Russia as meddling in Chile when in fact the two countries worked on strengthening their relations. Allende's policies with Russia did not significantly differ from his predecessor President Frei. It was in February 1970 during Frei's administration when a Chilean-Russian agreement on cultural and scientific cooperation was signed. With concern to Cuba, President Frei's government made a decision to sell $10 million worth of agricultural products to the country. Hence, Allende's foreign policies were largely a continuation of Frei's. Chile's relations between Russia and Cuba were not nearly as warm as portrayed by right-wingers. Allende's government was dissapointed in the level of Russia's support. When Allende went to Moscow asking for more aid, he was turned down. Kupredu (talk) 21:06, 1 May 2009 (UTC)"
"The section on Russia's alleged involvement in Chile is based on unreliable sources full of sensationalism such as the dubious Mitrokhin Archive."
On the contrary, the Mitrohkin Archive has been validated by the MI-6, the CIA and the FBI as well by intelligence analists around the world.
"This work is not taken seriously by scholars. "
Who? At least try to lie with dignity.
"it is very disingenuous to portray Russia as meddling in Chile when in fact the two countries worked on strengthening their relations."
Maybe you should open your eyes to the truth, the UP was supported by the soviets in the hope to spread their influence in Latin America, also Allende was a known puppet of the KGB, who accepted political and economic support, including bribes and gifts from the soviets in exchange for information about chilean politics, while he was in office.
"Allende's policies with Russia did not significantly differ from his predecessor President Frei."
Wrong, the ammount of credits and loans granted by the soviets had no precedent in chilean history.
"With concern to Cuba, President Frei's government made a decision to sell $10 million worth of agricultural products to the country. Hence, Allende's foreign policies were largely a continuation of Frei's. Chile's relations between Russia and Cuba were not nearly as warm as portrayed by right-wingers."
Right-wingers? what exactly do you think a right-winger is? Relations between Allende and Castro reached an unprecedented level from 1970 to 1973, including an illegal smuggling of weapons, 3000 to 4000 AK47 among other equipments, from Cuba to Chile to support Allende`s violent "revolution", the known scandal of the "cuban packages".
"Allende's government was dissapointed in the level of Russia's support. When Allende went to Moscow asking for more aid, he was turned down."
Allende was turned out AFTER the URSS had already spent hundreds of millions of dollars to support his failed government. Only in 1973, after it was obvious that Allende was going down that Moscu refused to keep wasting money on Allende.
I CAN UNDERSTAND THAT AS A SOCIALIST YOU WOULD LIKE TO REMOVE ALL REFERENCES TO ALLENDE AND HIS CONECTION TO THE KGB AND THE DGI.
YOU CANT DENY THE TRUTH. I ASK THE ADMINISTRATORS PLEASE DONT LET THIS SOCIALIST FANATIC CONCEAL THE INFORMATION AND DEFORM THE HISTORIC TRUTH.190.45.75.14 (talk) 00:38, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
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A majority in the Senate still stayed firm with Allende?
Thats the first time I ever heard of such a thing. There is also no source to that claim either.
It also should be noted that a constitutional accusation against an incumbent president had, by law, to be presented by the Chamber of Deputies of the Republic.Agrofelipe (talk) 01:52, 5 May 2009 (UTC)