Talk:Rutka Laskier

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News article link[edit]

The yahoo.com link will only remain valid for about a month or so... AnonMoos 00:43, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Gdansk[edit]

Polish Wikipedia says that she was born in Gdansk. What is the source for this? Badagnani 17:37, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Sorry I don't speak english. Ifo comes from the end of the book in separation “From Rutka to Ruta” (Polish edition of the diary of Rutka Laskier). Rutka, she born in the Gdańsk, after family put over to the parents city (Będzin). Mateusz Opasiński 21:44, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I do not think the Free City of Danzig was 'a German enclave' by any stretch. It was neither German, nor Polish. Otherwise it would not be referred to as 'Free'.128.146.238.235 17:57, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Our own article says it was 90% German. That sounds like a "German enclave," doesn't it? Badagnani 18:03, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What do you mean by 'our own'? And what do you mean by 90%? In terms of ethnicity? If so, it does not matter. Legally, the City was neither a part of Poland, nor Germany. Look up the definition of 'enclave' and change the text accordingly. Otherwise, you are re-writing history.

"Our own article" means "the English-language Wikipedia's article" (about the Free City of Danzig). It says 90% of that city were German speakers. Badagnani 18:33, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've just changed the wording to: "Laskier was born in the Free City of Danzig (now Gdańsk), then a predominantly German-speaking autonomous city-state in northern Poland." Is that okay? Badagnani 18:36, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It is not OK, the Free City was not in northern Poland. It was not part of Poland at all. And I would drop the bit about what language people spoke there. It is irrelevant here.
BTW, the woman's name is 'Stanisława Sapińska' not 'Stanisławą Sapińską'. The latter is the causative case of the former (with the extra diacritics used in Polish only). It needs to be changed throughout the English text.

What does it mean "causative case"? Badagnani 18:51, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

'Causative' means by whom an action was performed. In English, say, the name Badagnani retains the same form irrespective of what role it plays in a sentence (by Badagnani, with Badagnani, about Badagnani, for Badagnani). It is not the case in Polish (Badagnani, Badagnaniego, Badagnaniemu, etc.). You must have copied the form 'Stanisławą Sapińską' from the Polish wiki. Her proper name is 'Stanisława Sapińska' and, because in English it remains the same in any santence, this form should be used throughout.

That's helpful. The Slavic languages have a different logic about this. The closest thing we have in English would be "Badagnani's" to show possession. Badagnani 19:28, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

At least people should know where it is. It wasn't part of Poland, but it was inside northern Poland. That just tells readers where it was, geographically. "North-central Europe" is maybe not specific enough. Badagnani 18:53, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Do people generally know where Gdansk is? If not, maybe 'the Free City of Danzig (now Gdansk, Poland)'

I'm from the U.S. and am very good at geography, but even I don't know what regions of Poland any of the major cities are (Krakow, Warsaw, Katowice, etc.). I think most North Americans don't know either. The reason I added "northern Poland" is because we already said that Bedzin is in southern Poland, so it can show that the family's move was not a close one, but a long one. Badagnani 19:18, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, but Bedzin, unlike the Free City, WAS (an is) a part of Poland. If you want to show that a move was a long one why not 'the Free City of Danzig (now Gdansk, northern Poland)'. Linking the Free City to Poland would be, at least, confusing.

I made a change in the text; see what you think. Your expertise and input is greatly appreciated. Badagnani 19:43, 8 June 2007 (UTC) I think it's OK now.[reply]

One more thing... 'Młynarskiej Laskier-Kleinberg and Company'... 'Młynarskiej' is an adjective derived from the noun 'Młyn' (eng. a mill). It is not a person's name. So maybe, 'Laskier-Kleinberg Mill Company'?

Yes, but isn't Młynarskiej part of the name of the company, since it's capitalized? Badagnani 19:42, 8 June 2007 (UTC) No, it is not (who capitalized it anyway?). The corresponding entry in the Polish Wiki says 'firmy mlynarskiej' which is not a proper name (it simply means 'a mill company'). But I see where the problem is... the mill company was owned by Laskier, Kleinberg, and some other guys (hence 'and Company'). 'Lakier-Kleinberg and Co. Mill Company' looks and sounds awfull. Any idea how to change it? 'Lakier-Kleinberg and Co. Mill Consortium'? BTW the company OWNED the grist mill (among other things, I guess). So, the company and the mill were not one and the same thing.[reply]

It must have been my mistake. I'll try to fix it. Badagnani 20:09, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"Sapińska offered to hide the diary in her house's basement, under the double flooring in a staircase, so that people would be able to know what had happened to the Jewish people of Będzin"

I know exactly what you meant to convey, but in the present form it looks odd - if you hide something, how does it make other people know/learn about it? Besides, is 'house's basement' or 'the basement of her house' better?

The wording was awkward, you're right. See what you think now. Oh, if you could sign your posts by adding four tildes ~~~~after your posts, that will help other editors to know who you are. Thanks, Badagnani 20:34, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It looks much better now. I always forget those four tildes... One more thing... In the sentence "In 1943, while writing the diary, Laskier shared it with Stanisława Sapińska (b. ca. 1918), whom she had befriended after Laskier's family moved into a home owned by Sapińska's family, which had been confiscated by the Nazis so that it could be included in the ghetto."
Maybe it would be better to change 'a home owned by Sapinska's family' into 'the Sapinska family home'. The way it is now, it seems to suggest it was the family (not the home) that had been confiscated by the Nazis (sic!)128.146.238.235 22:17, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that the wording is not great, and maybe confusing. Also, some articles say it was a home and some say that it was an apartment. And it isn't clear why one of the articles say that it was later incorporated into the ghetto, when the Laskier family apparently moved out of the house into the ghetto. Badagnani 22:19, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The Polish word 'dom' (eng. home) has a dual meaning (as does its English counterpart). So a cardboard box under a bridge can be 'a home' in a spiritual sense. Anyway, there was nobody in any ghetto throughout Poland who lived in 'a home' (in terms of size). If anything, many families would be squeezed into one apartment (or a home). The way a ghetto was created was to take a part of the city, empty it of ethnic Poles, and move in all the Jewish folks from the surrounding area. If the Laskiers had lived outside the designated area, they would be forcibly moved in. If Sapinska lived inside the designated area (it was the case, obviously) she would be moved out. So the two families (the Laskiers and the Sapinskas) did not live together. In other words, 'a home owned by the Sapinska family' is factually incorrect. It ceased to be theirs after it was designated to be part of the ghetto. It seems to me, however, that the ghetto was not sealed as the two girls were able to interact with each other.128.146.238.235 22:48, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What you say seems to make a lot of sense. Maybe you could get and read the book in Polish to make sure? It also seems, from her current age of 89, that Sapinska was not Rutka's age but was about 25 years old, in 1943. Badagnani 22:54, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I also live in Ohio, so I do not have this book in Polish handy. Do you know of any Polish bookstores in the Columbus are, lol. I actually wanted to read it because the excerpts I read in English seemed way too mature for a young teen (I blame the translation though). And I was also suprised she wrote it in Polish (and not Yiddish).128.146.238.235 23:03, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Not « in Polish » ! In « good Polish » ! : « Widać to po pamiętniku Rutki, która pisała go piękną polszczyzną. »… (cf. <http://katowice.naszemiasto.pl/pamietnik_rutki/specjalna_artykul/534152.html>.) Budelberger (talk) 00:03, 16 March 2008 (UTC).[reply]

It's not clear that the Sapinskas didn't own more than one home or apartment property, so I'm not sure if it was "the" home of the Sapinskas or just one of several that they owned. Badagnani 22:21, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Be realistic, the Sapinskas could not be property magnates. It was wartime in occupied Poland. The Sapinskas were kicked out from their family home after it had been designated to part of the ghetto. The Laskiers were moved in. The Sapinskas had to find themselves some other place to live (outsied ghetto proper). Do not apply the common sense of today to what was going on in occupied Poland 65 years ago.128.146.238.235 22:56, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This is a bit of a pendantic comment, but when one refers to the family of Ms. Sapinska, in Polish it would be the "Sapinski's", as in Polish last names with the 'ski' ending are gender sensitive: thus: Mr. Sapniski, Ms. Sapinska, the Sapinski's. --Patpecz 04:53, 24 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • OK, good point, but it doesn't say "the Sapinska family" but "Sapinska's family," so it seems correct in the wording. Badagnani 04:58, 24 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not; I'm just going by the wording in the English-language newspaper reports. Probably U.S. journalists don't know as much as you do about this, and they were getting the info second hand from the people at Yad Vashem. But you're most likely right. Is this what you get from the Polish-language sources on this? Or have you already read the book in Polish? Badagnani 23:04, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The Polish sources do not need to explain the backgroud as it is common knowledge in Poland. So in a sense, you are right. The Sapinskas owned two properties (although not at the same time). When they moved out of their family home (to make room for the Laskiers), they found shelter somewhere else. And no, I have not read the book in Polish (but, as I said before, the English translation seems a bit too mature)128.146.238.235 23:23, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

OK, if you'd like to fix it you should go ahead. If you could add the process the ghettos were created (as you explained to me) that would be very, very good because I don't think most people understand that. I think most people think the Jewish ghetto areas were always there, since the Middle Ages. Badagnani 23:33, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Discrepancies[edit]

It seems the first English-language articles about this subject got several things wrong. This is one of them. A few footnotes are in order, to clarify these mistakes. Badagnani 03:59, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If you think this edit is wrong, then remove it as it is unsourced. Unsourced things that could be wrong in a biography should be aggressively removed. Royalbroil 04:54, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm saying the opposite: that the English-language sources on which we based the first version of the article got things slightly wrong, and our olish contributor has fixed it by sourcing from the Polish diary publication. That's one of the beauties of Wikipedia, that we continually improve. Badagnani 13:59, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Nickname[edit]

The first name of this girl is not « Rutka » but « Rut », « Ruth » : Poles love nicknames. When Wikipedia talks about Stanisława Sapińska, it doesn't call her « Stasia »… nor Jakub (Yaakov) Laskier « Kuba »… nor Zofia Minc « Zosia »… It seems to me that in the Laskier family, they all have two names, a Hebrew and a Polish one. I don't know the Polish first name of Rut Laskier.

Budelberger (talk) 13:35, 6 January 2009 (UTC) ().[reply]

This would require a source. All the sources refer to her as "Rutka Laskier." Badagnani (talk) 23:11, 6 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Learn Polish before talking about Poland. --Budelberger (talk) 00:03, 7 January 2009 (UTC) ().[reply]
I'm sorry, I don't understand. Badagnani (talk) 03:54, 7 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Preview[edit]

Badagnani did 14 (!) edits in 13 (!) minutes – 6:45–6:58 – !!! Does he know that, before publishing, we may, we MUST, preview our revisions ?…

Budelberger (talk) 14:53, 6 January 2009 (UTC) ().[reply]

If you would kindly moderate your tone, it would be much better. Thank you for your consideration. Badagnani (talk) 23:11, 6 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
If you would kindly moderate your edits, here : 14/13 and there : 3/9, it would be much better.. --Budelberger (talk) 00:03, 7 January 2009 (UTC) ().[reply]
I'm sorry, I don't understand. Badagnani (talk) 03:55, 7 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

« why would she be wheeled to a crematorium if she were still living? »[edit]

« Badagnani » asks : « Why would [Ruth Laskier] be wheeled [by Zosia Minc] to a crematorium if she were still living? »… We don't ask you your POV, it's the testimony of Zofia Minc written in 1946, long before Business Men kept the market. If you don't agree Minc's report (1946 !), try to revert it… The legend that Rut « is believed to have died in a gas chamber, along with her mother and brother, upon her arrival with her family in August 1943 at the Auschwitz concentration camp » was built on nothing else than sand, without any question from you. In France, we know this phenomenon very well, with Simone Jacob. You can read here.

Budelberger (talk) 22:54, 6 January 2009 (UTC) ().[reply]

That doesn't answer the question. The question was "why," not "where did you hear that?" Badagnani (talk) 23:09, 6 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The question is « Why did you revert your question ?… » --Budelberger (talk) 00:03, 7 January 2009 (UTC) ().[reply]
I'm sorry, I don't understand. Badagnani (talk) 03:55, 7 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Gas chamber or crematorium[edit]

Why was "crematorium" just substituted for "gas chamber" when the source states "gas chamber"[1]? Badagnani (talk) 04:01, 7 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Your source is a fake (as seen in fr.Wikipedia which is in the hands of the Lobby). Internet doesn't have the full text in Polish of Zofia Minc's testimony ; it is cut off before its end (Ha ! ha ! You can't destroy this testimony ? cut it off !) :
« Rutka była taka śliczna, że nawet dr. Mengel zwrócił na nią uwagę. Wtedy wybuchła epidemia tyfusu i cholery. Rutka zachorowała na cholerę i w ciągu kilku godzin zmieniła się nie do poznania. Został z niej tylko marny ślad. »
But in French, whe have its end (from the communist French newspaper Libération, 2008-03-10 ; here, there… ; I HAVE this newspaper in my hands) :
« Dans notre block, je dormais à côté de mon amie, Rutka Laskier, de Bedzin. Elle était tellement belle, que même le Dr Mengele l’avait remarquée. Une épidémie de typhus et de choléra a alors éclaté. Rutka a attrapé le choléra. En quelques heures, elle est devenue méconnaissable. Elle n’était plus qu’une ombre pitoyable. Je l’ai moi-même transportée dans une brouette au crématoire. Elle me suppliait de l’amener jusqu’aux barbelés pour se jeter dessus et mourir électrocutée, mais un SS marchait derrière moi avec un fusil et il ne m’a pas laissé faire. »
Nobody knows how Ruth Laskier is dead ; believers believe : « Laskier is believed to have died in a gas chamber, along with her mother and brother, upon her arrival with her family in August 1943 at the Auschwitz concentration camp, at the age of 14. », « On a longtemps cru que Rutka Laskier était morte à l'âge de 14 ans, gazée en août 1943 avec sa mère et son frère, dès son arrivée au camp d'extermination d'Auschwitz. », « Rutka Laskier wraz z rodziną została deportowana z będzińskiego getta w sierpniu 1943 roku i przewieziona do obozu zagłady Auschwitz-Birkenau. Tam wraz z matką i 6-letnim braciszkiem Heniusiem (Joachim) została rozłączona z ojcem i pewnie tego samego dnia zgładzona w komorze gazowej. » ; the others know that there is a historical testimony, from 1946 – not 1967 nor 1973 – written by Zofia Minc. This account is uncomplete, because it does'nt say how Ruth died. Nobody died in a « crematorium ». So, « cholera », « gas chamber » ? Nobody knows, except fakers (who write in Wikipedia, who hold it). Have a look at the « pl » : « Istnieje też inna wersja ostatnich dni Rutki, której świadkiem miała być Zofia Minc, więźniarka KL Birkenau. » ! « Istnieje też inna wersja » !… Nie ma pierwszej wersji (only a « we think that… pewnie… »), ale « istnieje inna wersja », the 1946 written one ! All of them fakers. --Budelberger (talk) 15:34, 7 January 2009 (UTC) ().[reply]
Thanks, but I don't understand the essence of your comment. Can you please make your English more clear and concise? Badagnani (talk) 18:42, 7 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Rut Laskier, better known as Rutka (diminutive) Laskier, is probably dead. When ? We don't know. Where ? We don't know. Why ? We don't know. We only know that she was very ill (cholera) in December 1943, asking her friend for a quick death. As we don't know nothing or so about her death, fakers make fakes. --Budelberger (talk) 20:42, 7 January 2009 (UTC) ().[reply]
Thank you; that is very clear. But that doesn't answer my original question. And why did the French source say "gas chamber" when the Polish source says, as you say, "crematorium"? What is the Polish word for "crematorium"? Badagnani (talk) 20:48, 7 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Also, where is the 1946 source (you state that the statement was made in 1946)? Badagnani (talk) 20:50, 7 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The French sources, in March 2008, said « crematorium » (search « Rutka crématoire », e. g. Le Soir de Bruxelles) ; new "sources" are rewritten with « gas chamber », e. g. fr.Wijipedia ; Polish "sources" prefer a shortened text, without the last sentences (here they are : « Zawiozłam ją na taczce do krematorium. Rutka błagała mnie, bym zawiozła ją do drutów, to rzuci się na nie i prąd ją zabije, ale za taczką szedł esesman z karabinem i nie pozwolił na to. »). « crematorium » in Polish is « krematorium », or « piec krematoryjny ». Zofia Minc's testimony is in the Jewish Historical Institute, in Warsaw. --Budelberger (talk) 23:41, 7 January 2009 (UTC) ().[reply]
Thank you, that is very clear. However, it isn't clear how this source states "gas chamber" rather than "crematorium," when the Polish word for crematorium is spelled nearly identically to the English word. Is the 2008 article summarizing the 1946 testimony available online, or only in libraries? And is the 1946 testimony published anywhere else or only available in the institute in Warsaw? Badagnani (talk) 07:04, 8 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The author's name is Rutka Laskier[edit]

Rutka Laskier is a published memorist. Names of published authors are spelled as they are in Wikipedia.

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion[edit]

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

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Interesting birthdate[edit]

That's the same birthdate as Anne Frank's. — Rickyrab. Yada yada yada 07:34, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Rickyrab: - I have checked the Polish sources and it appears to be right. Oliszydlowski (talk) 09:14, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion[edit]

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 19:42, 9 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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