Talk:Rudy Boesch/Archive 1

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**CM (SEAL) Boesch's rating

Does anyone know what rate he was? --ProdigySportsman 02:53, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I just did some Googling, and no luck.
-JakeApple 03:12, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
OK. Think I might have found something. This PDF doc (on page 14) lists him as BMCM (SEAL).
-JakeApple 03:22, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

BMCM (SEAL) Boesch, USN (ret.)

Tat rate makes sense, especially for someone serving that long ago. Boatswain's Mate is probably the most common rate amongst SEAL operators. Also, I thought of this, we are assuming he was a Master Chief i know the Wik-bio says this but you can never be too sure. Thank you Jake for your work. --ProdigySportsman 17:15, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

No prob. Glad I was able to track it down. -JakeApple 18:05, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

UDT? Scouts and Raiders?

At the time Survivor was on, I recall reading he enlisted in WW2 and was in something called "Scouts and Raiders" where they were going to or did work with Chinese guerrillas against the Japanese. He stayed in the Navy, and joined UDT 1950 (start of Korean War)? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Purpleslog (talk • contribs) 18:39, 6 January 2007 (UTC).

Here's a snippet from his Survivor 8 bio:
Rudy joined the Navy in April of 1945 and immediately volunteered for "secret and hazardous duty" with the Amphibious Scouts and Raiders, highly classified naval commando units. In 1951, six years after Scout and Raider training in Fort Pierce, Florida, Rudy completed UDT (Underwater Demolition Teams) training in Little Creek, Virginia, and was assigned to UDT-2 (redesigned as UDT-21 in 1953). He remained in UDT-21 for the next 11 years.
Hope that helps to clarify things.
-JakeApple 01:57, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

$65,000 question

I read the lastest 3rd place winner Yau-man was paid 65 grand for third, can I assume Rudy was too?

"Stint" in Vietnam

I don't think it's appropriate to refer to his service in Vietnam as his "stint" in Vietnam. It's insulting to soldiers who served there, let alone a soldier who did what he did. I would change stint to "service."--Lindsay (talk) 17:14, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Lindsay, stint is the proper common-use word. You might not think it's appropriate but what you think doesn't determine fact. Chris Troutman (talk) 21:22, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

GA Review

GA toolbox
Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Rudy Boesch/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Wasted Time R (talk · contribs) 17:44, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)
  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a (prose): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):
    See comments below
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.
    a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a (major aspects): b (focused):
    See comments below
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
    Fair representation without bias:
  5. It is stable.
    No edit wars, etc.:
  6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.
    a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
  7. Overall:
    Pass/Fail:

Specific comments:

  • The first sentence and bolding in the lead is not right - see what other BLPs look like.

 Done Chris Troutman (talk) 18:34, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

  • The article needs an "Early life" section. Where did he grow up, who were his parents and what did they do, was his father or anyone else in his family military, what high school did he go to, why did he decide to join the Navy, things like that.

 Done I removed Rudy's book from "published works" since I'm now using it as a source. Chris Troutman (talk) 17:42, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

More could be added, such that he dropped out of high school to go into the service. This People mag profile from season one says that he joined the Merchant Marines at age 16 in 1944, before enlisting in the Navy at age 17 in 1945. The profile has some other things you can use as well. Wasted Time R (talk) 12:36, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
That line from People directly conflicts other sources. I put in the fact that he enlisted in the Navy at 17, which is certainly accurate. It does look like he dropped out of High School but I'm not comfortable putting that in based on the references. Chris Troutman (talk) 03:19, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
It doesn't directly conflict with the Newsmax piece that you are using in the article. Both agree that he joined the Navy at 17. Does it really conflict with anything else? People magazine may focus on personalities and celebrities, but they are usually pretty good about accuracy - they don't just make stuff up like the supermarket tabloids do. Also, the Merchant Marines time is supported by this page on him, where someone appears to have had pretty detailed access to his service record. Some of the details at this page can be confirmed elsewhere, for example that the destroyer he served on in the late 1940s was USS Massey is confirmed by this account of Rudy at a ship reunion (it gives Rudy's dates aboard as 1946-48 rather than the other page's 1946-49, but close enough). And joining the Merchant Marines wouldn't be unique to him - you can find a number of stories on the web of people who were anxious to enter the fight and joined because they would let in 16-year-olds. Wasted Time R (talk) 00:19, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
OK, so you're saying that People magazine makes the claim about the Merchant Marines. That detail is also included in a self-published website that has facts like Rudy's time as a "bosun" aboard USS Massey. The website is right about a bunch of facts, so it's probably right about the Merchant Marines detail that People mentions.
I get your point and I agree it's not much of a stretch, but Rudy himself seemingly refutes it:

When I was sixteen I couldn't think of nothing but of getting into the military. As soon as I turned seventeen I quit school and went down to join the Marines. But you had to be eighteen to get into the Marines. So I went next door to the Navy and joined them.

— Rudy Boesch, Book of Rudy page 58
I think the article as written is as complete as we can get it given the sourcing. I'm not comfortable adding the sentence about the Merchant Marines. Chris Troutman (talk) 02:56, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
You are right, the Rudy book seems to be in contradiction with the People article, so we should leave the Merchant Marines out until and unless something more definitive appears. However, isn't what you quoted enough to add that he dropped out of high school to join the Navy? Also, note that I got a story out of a newspaper archive and added to the article to further establish that he grew up in Rochester and provide some idea of his early schooling. Wasted Time R (talk) 12:37, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

 Done Thanks for adding that piece from Virginia Pilot. I assume the paywall is why I didn't see that source earlier; I thought I'd read everything there was. Chris Troutman (talk) 02:30, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

  • "WWII" should be spelled out.

 Done Chris Troutman (talk) 16:06, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

  • What was the "special program"?

 Done I removed that wording. Chris Troutman (talk) 16:06, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

I didn't mean that you should remove it, just better explain it - per the Stars and Stripes source in the article, he was part of a secret group organized to assist Chinese fighters in a planned attack on the Japanese mainland.
Boesch went through training but never carried out the mission. This is the only source that makes this claim. I think it makes more sense to remove unneeded detail and allow other editors with independent sources add those details. Chris Troutman (talk) 18:34, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
I've added some sourced information about the planned missions, although Rudy never left Florida during WWII. Chris Troutman (talk) 03:19, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
  • "From 1968–1970 ..." should begin a new paragraph, and I think "During and after his stint in Vietnam ..." should begin a new paragraph as well.

 Done Chris Troutman (talk) 16:06, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

  • A brief explanation of what SEAL Team Two did and where they were stationed is needed. Also, usage needs to be consistent (TWO, Two, 2?).

 Done I've ironed that out about as much as I can. It's thin, I'll admit. Chris Troutman (talk) 03:19, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

  • Some more detail about his combat operations in Vietnam would be good.

 Not done I can't find anything more about him specifically. The information about SEAL activities in Vietnam seems to vary from man to man. Chris Troutman (talk) 03:19, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Looking closer at the Bill Fawcett Hunters & Shooters: An Oral History of the U.S. Navy SEALs in Vietnam book (originally published in 1995) that you already use as a cite in a couple of early places ... it has a 32-page chapter on Boesch, co-credited to a Kevin Dockery. Why isn't more use of this being made in the article, especially as it relates to Vietnam activities? Even if there are places where we aren't sure that Boesch's tales have been fact-checked, we can still in-text attribute them to him. Wasted Time R (talk) 12:40, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
I cited Fawcett's book to provide some noncontroversial facts that could likely be verified somewhere else, even if I haven't been able to do that yet. The chapter you mentioned is Rudy's own words. Without some reliable secondary sources, I'm not comfortable using Rudy's account of SEAL team "snatch-and-grab" operations alongside ARVN forces. Most of what Wikipedia contains on the subject is horribly slanted or unsourced, so establishing a truthful narrative of those operations in order to verify Rudy's account is a task not easily done. This article already relies too heavily on Rudy's first-hand accounts provided to various primary-source publishers. Finally, I think we've passed the threshold for GA. I acknowledge that you have far more experience with this than I do, but I've seen a lot more work put in on this article than the other GA's I've reviewed. Chris Troutman (talk) 16:47, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
GA reviews span a wide range, from the cursory to the exhausting (and I've been the recipient of ones all along that range). I get that you are frustrated, but I cannot bless as "good" a military career section that is basically just a list of trainings and postings and promotions and that tells us nothing about what he did in the postings or what he was like. I agree with you that Rudy's first-hand accounts should not be the basis for this additional material, so instead I've started adding some accounts from others, all described as such in-text. See if you're okay with this approach. Wasted Time R (talk) 11:08, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
As the reviewer, if you feel more work needs to be done, then I'll do more work. I certainly don't want you taking it upon yourself to write the article how you think it should read. Insha'Allah, this article will be my first GA and I want to be proud of the work I've put in rather than see a GA mostly written by someone else that I coincidentally nominated. Yes, I am frustrated as your standards for GA seem to be a lot higher that the standards I've seen on other articles. I doubt you would have approved any of the GAs I promoted and this is concerning since I went through the GA training. What more would an A-class review mandate? While your approach is excellent, I'm not sure it's worth writing content without some reliable secondary sources. As a history major, I wouldn't write this as an essay with this sourcing. I will say that you've found several sources that I didn't find previously and perhaps you could advise me on where I should be looking. Please continue to list what you want to see done and I'll try to address your concerns. Chris Troutman (talk) 13:44, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
I sincerely apologize if you feel I've run you over on this article. That wasn't my intent – I'm already behind on a bunch of articles where I am the lead writer, I don't want to add new articles to that list. I was merely trying to fill in in areas where it looked like you were stuck. In a couple of places you say things like "I thought I'd read everything there was." I can assure that's never the case, for any researcher, even academic scholars who spend years on book projects. There's always more out there. In general, I use Google Books search for finding things in books, then a combination of Google Books and Amazon Look Inside and real libraries (including inter-library loan) to read them. I use Google News Archive search for newspaper stories, most of the time using the free ones, sometimes buying paywalled ones. Then I use existing subscription accounts I have for things like the New York Times and Time magazine (home subscriber to both) and Questia (from WP; alas, my Highbeam account expired). If you have university access, then you can get to JSTOR and all sorts of other good things.
Regardless of whether it's for DYK, peer review, GA, Milhist A-class, FA, or anything else, I always believe in writing the best article possible. I've seen GA reviews longer and more demanding than this one, so I don't believe this is out of bounds. Regarding the material I recently added, the article needed some metrics for Rudy's popularity on Survivor and a description of his persona that made him popular. There are a lot of sources for both so feel free to re-source and rewrite what I added. Regarding military career, the article has to have some description, however presented, of what he did in Vietnam and what he was like overall and how he did what he did. Rudy is mentioned in a number of SEAL memoirs, and while any one of those might not be the strongest source, they gain strength when used in combination if they present a consistent portrayal. Also look for an official history of the SEALs, or the SEALs in Vietnam, if there is one. Even if it doesn't mention Rudy by name, it could corroborate the kinds of activities they were doing there.
In any case, due to a combination of expected and unexpected real-life circumstances, I'm going to be away from WP for a week or so, so work on this at your leisure and we'll come back to this. Wasted Time R (talk) 12:45, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
  • What other medals was he awarded?

 Done I could only find referencing for the Bronze star and the Defense Superior Service Medal. We would need to conduct original resource (FOIA) to find the rest. Chris Troutman (talk) 03:19, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

  • Medals can be included in the infobox - see other articles on military personnel.

 Done As I recall, there was a discussion somewhere

  • The Survivor section needs a lot more than this. The show was a hit sensation that summer and Rudy was one of its more popular stars. He became famous for his tough attitude, for drinking unpurified/unboiled water ("If I’m not still standing at noon, don't drink it"), for his interplay with and about Richard Hatch (use of the word "queer", as well as his quote "Me and Richard got to be pretty good friends. Not in a homosexual way, that's for sure"), and for various other Rudy-isms.
 Not done I'll look into it. I figured there would be interest in that. I wanted to avoid over-doing that section since I think his notability is his Navy career. Chris Troutman (talk) 16:06, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
His notability is both. There are several books by or about SEALs published before 2000 that mention him. But the vast majority of mentions of him post-date his appearance on Survivor. In any case, the two are not mutually exclusive; we can expand our treatment of both his military career and his Survivor fame. Wasted Time R (talk) 03:44, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
 Done I added a huge amount about the first season of Survivor, the drinking water issue, use of the word "queer", etc. Chris Troutman (talk) 03:19, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
  • What was his reaction to the fame he got from the show?

 Done Chris Troutman (talk) 03:19, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

  • You should describe Rudy's performance in the first season - how did he get to third place, what was his alliance, etc. You mention the challenge he lost at the end, but what challenges did he do well in?

 Done Chris Troutman (talk) 03:19, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

  • For that matter, how was he cast in the show? Did he find them or vice versa?
So far as I can tell, every participant applied. No one was sought out by production. That said, I'm not sure if it makes sense to put a sentence in about it since there's no reporting about his audition tape, why he applied, etc. Chris Troutman (talk) 03:19, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
Several sources indicate that he responded to a newspaper ad. That is worth including. Wasted Time R (talk) 11:29, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
Certainly the production team solicited applications and perhaps advertised via newspaper. We know that Rudy sent in an application but I haven't seen sourcing explaining a compelling reason why. Chris Troutman (talk) 16:47, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
This is relevant because of some of the controversy that followed season one. I haven't wanted to include the 'Burnett advised contestants to vote off Stacey not Rudy' matter in this article, because it doesn't have anything to do with Rudy's own actions, but if you look at accounts like this NYT one, there was another allegation that Burnett and Rudy had known each other before the show, based on Rudy having worked on one of the early seasons of Eco-Challenge. Rudy did indeed work as on the logistics team for that show, apparently, but Burnett said he had forgotten that by the time Survivor was cast. So given all this, I think something should be mentioned about how Rudy got onto the show. Wasted Time R (talk) 11:08, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
This is first heard by me. The Survivor book mentions that production's process of interviewing contestants during the show likely influenced some contestants' strategies. Rudy admits working on Eco-Challenge and that would be huge if he was hand-selected by Burnett. Chris Troutman (talk) 13:44, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
  • You can mention that he appeared on the most recent Survivor finale show, illustrating the appeal he has for the show's audience.

 Not done That appearance was embarrassing. Probst kept fishing for Rudy to make a gay comment. I don't think Rudy wants to be a hackneyed character but that's what Survivor wants him to be. I'll see if I can work it in. Chris Troutman (talk) 16:06, 22 July 2013 (UTC)  Done I added that, too. Honestly, there wasn't much reportage about his appeal. There was a lot of ire about his frequent homophobic comments, not to mention his speaking role when other contenstants from that season were shut out. Chris Troutman (talk) 03:19, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

  • Some reviews of his TV hosting jobs for Survivor Guide and especially Combat Missions are needed.

 Done I added more on his role on Combat Missions. Chris Troutman (talk) 03:19, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

  • The "Personal life" section doesn't need to be separate. The mention of his marriage - and you need to add children - can go in chronological order within the "Military Service" section. Her death and the other activities can go in the "After Survivor" section, since being included in a Hall of Fame and hosting an annual fundraiser are not "personal" activities any more than anything else in this article.

 Done Chris Troutman (talk) 16:06, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

  • Unless there is something more to it than this one source indicates, why is this auto crash included in the article? Seems like recentism to me.

 Done Chris Troutman (talk) 16:06, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

  • The ISBN for his book should be part of a section called "Writings" or "Works" that lists the full bibliographic info for The Book of Rudy. The publication can still be mentioned in the article text, however, maybe with a review or two.

 Done Chris Troutman (talk) 18:34, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

  • The personal manuscript etc at the LoC should be listed as an entry in the "External links" section.

 Done Chris Troutman (talk) 16:06, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

  • Commons has several images of him. The one you have is good for the top photo, but I would add something like this one or this one that shows him in uniform.

 Done Chris Troutman (talk) 16:06, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

  • The top photo needs a caption that gives the year taken.

 Done Chris Troutman (talk) 16:06, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm placing the GAN on hold. I will add more items if I think of them. Wasted Time R (talk) 11:32, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

I know it's coming up on 7 days since you've placed this on hold. I would ask if you could give me more time to complete these changes. I've been waiting on a book about the first season of Survivor to arrive. It should be here Monday and I'll be able to complete the changes Tuesday. Chris Troutman (talk) 17:41, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
That's fine, I don't pay attention to the seven-day thing as long as forward progress is being made. Wasted Time R (talk) 01:47, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
I think I've addressed all your concerns, save a few cases where there isn't reference information readily available. I hit the local library as well as Amazon to get books. I'm not sure where else I can really look. Chris Troutman (talk) 03:19, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Additional issues with cite formatting:

  • Decide if you are going to link to publishers or not, and do it consistently (I think it's better to do it).

 Done Links have been established where applicable. Chris Troutman (talk) 18:34, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

You still haven't linked many publishers, including Newsmax.com, CBS, CBS News, Premiere Speakers Bureau
 Done I think I have all of them now. Chris Troutman (talk) 03:19, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Decide if you are going to use 'first last' for authors or 'last, first' and do it consistently (I'm okay with either but most editors prefer last, first).

 Done Chris Troutman (talk) 18:34, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Most of these are changed but you still have "Bill Fawcett".
  • Decide on a date format - right now you have a mishmash of mdy, dmy, and iso - and use it consistently. Since this is an American subject, most editors would use mdy, and that's what the article text is using.

 Done Reflinks autogenerates dates in ISO format, so I chose ISO. Chris Troutman (talk) 18:34, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Most of these are changed but you still have "9 March 2007". And there should always be leading zeroes before months and days, so for instance "2010-4-4" should be "2010-04-04".

 Done Chris Troutman (talk) 04:35, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

  • Book cites should not show "Books.google.com" as the publisher, because they aren't. You can link the title or the page number to a page in Google Books, but the publisher is the original one. And there should be no retrieval date for books.

 Done Chris Troutman (talk) 18:34, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

  • There's no need to give an author with full mil designation like "Mass Communication Specialist 1st Class Brock A. Taylor, Navy Public Affairs Support Element West Det. Japan." Just use "Taylor, Brock A." Readers can click through if they want to see rank, posting, etc.

 Done Chris Troutman (talk) 18:34, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

  • Newspapers and magazines should be italicized.

 Done Chris Troutman (talk) 18:34, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Some were changed, but you missed The Tuscaloosa News and Kentucky New Era.
Please take a look at the code. For some reason it will display correctly in some cases and not in others. I shouldn't have to change all of them to piped links to get it to display properly. Chris Troutman (talk) 03:19, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
I've fixed the code. Cite template parameters like newspaper, magazine, journal, and work add the italics themselves; if you force them in, it can mess things up. Wasted Time R (talk) 11:29, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
Never knew that. Thanks. Chris Troutman (talk) 04:35, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
  • "NavySEALS. NavySEALS." Replace both with one NavySeals.com, unitalicized.

 Done Chris Troutman (talk) 18:34, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

  • You've got Stars and Stripes (newspaper) and Stars & Stripes. Proper is Stars and Stripes.

 Done Chris Troutman (talk) 18:34, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

  • Cite 14 is confusing to parse.

 Done I put a row break in so the two bundled references don't run together. Chris Troutman (talk) 18:34, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

It's still not completely clear. Which of the two does "Retrieved 2013-06-20" apply to?

 Done Thanks for the suggestion. There are multiple cases for Navy website links that I've left "navy.mil" as the publisher. Should I instead change those to reflect the applicable PAO? Chris Troutman (talk) 18:34, 28 July 2013 (UTC) Wasted Time R (talk) 13:38, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

I would just give United States Navy as the publisher for these, unless you can find WP articles on specific Fleet Public Affairs Centers and link to them. Wasted Time R (talk) 11:04, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

New comments on these:

  • The IMDB cite needs an access date. And it should be written "IMDB" or "IMDb", not "Imdb".

 Done Chris Troutman (talk) 04:35, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

  • I would also make the References two columns – use {{reflist|2}} or {{reflist|30em}}.

 Done Chris Troutman (talk) 04:35, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

  • Also, the third "External links" section entry should just be what's over the link - in other words, remove the "Lcweb2.loc.gov. 24 July 2004. Retrieved 2013-06-21." per WP:EXTLINK#External links section. Wasted Time R (talk) 11:04, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

 Done Chris Troutman (talk) 04:35, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Still not right. It should just like: "Rudolph E. Boesch Collection at Veterans History Project at American Folklife Center". It doesn't need the full dating stuff or cite template. Wasted Time R (talk) 11:29, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
I've taken care of this one. Wasted Time R (talk) 13:36, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Some new comments:

  • The pronunciation of his last name should be given (I can't remember myself, but Probst may have given it during that last reunion show).

 Done Chris Troutman (talk) 04:35, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

I've added the first name to that, and also formatted the whole first sentence the way it is normally done (see Rudy Giuliani for a similar example). Wasted Time R (talk) 13:36, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
  • The sentences describing his marriage and children should be set into its own paragraph.
It's two sentences, probably too short for a standalone paragraph. Chris Troutman (talk) 04:35, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
Wikipedia:PARAGRAPH discourages one-sentence paragraphs, but two-sentence ones are okay. At least you could start a new paragraph at that point. If you want to leave the "Meanwhile, he served in ..." as part of the same paragraph, that's okay. Wasted Time R (talk) 13:47, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

 Done Chris Troutman (talk) 16:47, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

  • The "Military career" section is too dry. It needs to convey more of his personality and reputation within the service. There are several SEAL memoirs out there that mention him in this regard. And as I think I mentioned earlier, it would be good to establish that books mentioned him that were published before Survivor ever happened.
Are there particular sources you have in mind? I've looked at a couple of those memoirs (which are really some questionable sources) and they don't talk about Rudy much. Chris Troutman (talk) 04:35, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
  • The "Survivor" section paragraph is too long, see where it can be broken up.

 Done Chris Troutman (talk) 04:35, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

  • Looking at other Survivor season articles, tribe names are not italicized.

 Done Chris Troutman (talk) 04:35, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

  • What does "When them Green Berets were here, I made sure they knew Richard was queer" refer to? Did Green Berets visit the island - if so, I've forgotten.
It doesn't really matter; they were there to build an obstacle course. If it's distracting, I can remove the sentence. I was trying to bolster the point about the "gay" comments. Chris Troutman (talk) 04:35, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
  • "ninth episode (day 27)" - I would just say day 27, which episode it is doesn't matter.

 Done Chris Troutman (talk) 04:35, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

  • Isn't "Betrayed by Richard" a bit strong? As I remember it, Richard decided he didn't need to compete in the final immunity, since either of the other contestants would pick him to go to final tribal with.
(Per the source I cited) there's an opinion that Rich's move was a betrayal. Yes, Richard knew he could afford to skip it since he was a shoo-in. The Survivor book by Burnett explains that Rudy did not react well to Richard quitting the challenge. Chris Troutman (talk) 04:35, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
  • The article should say who Rudy voted for in final tribal and why.
I don't have a source for it. He had to have voted to give Richard the money because that was the deal. Chris Troutman (talk) 04:35, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
  • It would be good if you could find a source or two that supports saying that the initial Survivor season was a huge hit and that Rudy's personality and performance was one of the elements that made it so popular.
  • "JAG TV episode" should be "JAG television series episode".

 Done Chris Troutman (talk) 04:35, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

  • Rudy Run SEAL Challenge and Naval Special Warfare Foundation should not be italicized.

 Done Chris Troutman (talk) 04:35, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

 Done Chris Troutman (talk) 04:35, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

  • Survivor: Caramoan should be italicized.

 Done Chris Troutman (talk) 04:35, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

  • Watch out for 'curly' or other non-standard punctuation, such as », ‘, ’, “, and ”. These should all be replaced with straight equivalents; see MOS:QUOTEMARKS.

 Done The evils of "copy-paste." I think I got all of them. Chris Troutman (talk) 04:35, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

  • Watch out for spaces between footnotes - there shouldn't be any. Current instances are between fn 13 and 14, 19 and 20, and 36 and 37. Wasted Time R (talk) 11:29, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
I don't think I see what you're talking about. Chris Troutman (talk) 04:35, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
I've fixed these up (only two were left after other edits of yours). Wasted Time R (talk) 13:36, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

 Done Chris Troutman (talk) 02:30, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

  • The Bibliography section had a couple of issues, but I've fixed them myself.
  • The Persondata template at the bottom of the article needs an entry in the "SHORT DESCRIPTION" field (see WP:PDT for guidance). Wasted Time R (talk) 13:36, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

 Done Chris Troutman (talk) 16:04, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

  • When mdy dates are used mid-sentence, there should be a comma after the year. So for example "from the Navy on August 1, 1990 as ..." should be "from the Navy on August 1, 1990, as ...". There are several of these.

 Done Chris Troutman (talk) 16:04, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

  • "On 27 October 2010 ..." Wrong date order compared to what rest of article is using. Wasted Time R (talk) 13:47, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

 Done Chris Troutman (talk) 16:04, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Query

It's been three weeks since the nomination and its article were worked on. What's left to do at this point on the article and/or review? BlueMoonset (talk) 21:17, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

This is what is still outstanding:

  • A fuller description of what Boesch did in Vietnam and what he was like during his military career overall. I proposed that this be done by incorporating descriptions from a number of SEAL memoirs that mention Boesch, attributed as such in-text. I added a few of these to illustrate the approach, but the nominator objected that I was taking over the article. I also wondered if there is an official history of the SEALs, or the SEALs in Vietnam, that would shed further light on the kind of activities that units like the one Boesch was in were involved in there.
  • Some mention of how Boesch got cast on Survivor, of his earlier involvement with Eco-Challenge, and of the (relatively minor) controversy surrounding this.
  • The lead section needs to be expanded somewhat, now that the article text is significantly longer than when the article was first nominated.
  • Confusing pronoun – "he was eliminated ..." should be "Boesch was eliminated ...".

 Done Chris Troutman (talk) 04:13, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

  • Fix the footnote that has the 'displayeditors' cite parameter red-flagged.

 Done Chris Troutman (talk) 04:13, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

  • Any additional small items that show on a final copyediting run.

The review bogged down mostly over the first item. I don't think the article is complete enough for the GA criteria without it. I don't want to fail the review because I know how to fix it. But I'm not fixing it because the nominator objected to my making these kinds of changes myself. The nominator's perspective is that the GA threshold has already been met. So there were are. Wasted Time R (talk) 11:14, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Forgot to mention:

  • I disagree with some of this recent change by another editor, especially in the "Survivor" section. On that show almost all contestants are known by their first name only, and thus it is appropriate to use "Rudy" in places there and not "Boesch".

Also some minor cite formatting issues:

  • In footnote 16, I think the actual publisher is Navy Times.
Army Times, Navy Times, etc. are really just Military Times as the source URL indicates. Often articles written primarily for one paper are reprinted in the others, so that there is essentially little distinction between them. Chris Troutman (talk) 20:36, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
  • In footnote 51, The Huffington Post isn't linked.

 Done Chris Troutman (talk) 20:36, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

  • Footnotes 30, 31, and 36 have some mdy dates in them, when all the other footnotes use iso format. Wasted Time R (talk) 10:49, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

 Done Chris Troutman (talk) 20:36, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

After another passage of time, the nominator has requested on my talk page, "I understand we have a difference of opinion. In the interest of progress, please pass or fail this GA nomination." I can't pass it as it stands, so regrettably I will fail it. Wasted Time R (talk) 11:14, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

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