Talk:Royal and Venerable Confraternity of the Most Blessed Sacrament of Mafra

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Requested move 21 January 2020[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus (non-admin closure) BegbertBiggs (talk) 23:34, 27 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]


Royal and Venerable Confraternity of the Most Blessed Sacrament of Mafra → Royal and Venerable Brotherhood of the Most Blessed Sacrament of Mafra – Correct translation from Portuguese Yup12 (talk) 23:36, 21 January 2020 (UTC) —Relisting. Steel1943 (talk) 16:43, 14 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Which English-language sources refer to it by that name, Yup12? If there is no name commonly used in English we should use the Portuguese name per WP:AT "Do not ... use obscure or made-up names" and WP:TRANSLITERATE " ... Portuguese for Brazilian towns ... ". Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 01:29, 22 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Yes Justlettersandnumbers. The original name in Portuguese is appropriate.--Yup12 (talk) 09:58, 22 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I was asked to do the move. I've seen the prior discussion here. I am not convinced that the current term is not also the English equivalent. I will leave it to someone else to decide. DGG ( talk ) 03:44, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Translation examples (from hermandad/irmandade to brotherhood): Santa Hermandad; Penitente Hermandad de Jesus Yacente; Brotherhood (Brazilian TV series); Cult of the Holy Spirit#Irmandade; Irmandades da Fala; Braga#Religious (Hospital of the Brotherhood of the Holy Cross of Jerusalem (Portuguese: Irmandade de Santa Cruz de Jerusalem), constructed in 1581, and later supported by the nuns of the Order Hospitaler)…--Yup12 (talk) 22:27, 26 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi DGG, I could of course go back and alter every “brotherhood” mention into “confraternity” to match the current (undesired) heading. The literal Portuguese to “Confraternity” would be “Confraria”. In this case “Irmandade” equates to “Brotherhood”, hence my natural choice. I’m not an expert and don’t know the difference (I assume there is one) between the two types of organisations. Melroross (talk) 10:03, 29 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

As I am not an expert, I cannot usefully comment further . DGG ( talk ) 16:52, 29 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Confraternity (confraria) has a broader meaning. Brotherhood is a type of confraternity, more specific. In the Portuguese tradition, brotherhoods (irmandades) have a more complex structure and more functions.--Yup12 (talk) 17:36, 29 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose until reliable sources in English are produced.
An IPv6 user 2001:818:DCE0:CE00:DD20:BCCF:A28:96D3 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) is going around changing the name in linked articles to "Brotherhood". This is out of process, and leads to a redirect so I am reverting. Elizium23 (talk) 21:48, 6 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Alternative: Real e Venerável Irmandade do Santíssimo Sacramento de Mafra (English: Royal and Venerable Brotherhood of the Most Blessed Sacrament of Mafra)--Yup12 (talk) 17:37, 7 February 2020 (UTC) @Justlettersandnumbers:; @DGG:; @Melroross:; @Elizium23:[reply]

  • Oppose. No evidence has been offered to justify any move. Andrewa (talk) 06:46, 26 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion[edit]

It should be noted that there have been many out-of-process edits associated with this Requested Move. Just for a start, a duplicate of this article, violating our copyleft requirements, was created as a copy-and-paste draft 

 20:01, 30 January 2020‎ Melroross talk contribs block‎  20,902 bytes +20,902‎  ←Created page with AFC submission...

and subsequently moved to the now proposed move target in the main namespace. More to follow. Andrewa (talk) 06:46, 26 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Template This article has multiple issues[edit]

Main source: Mafra Sacra : memória & património, 1717-2017 [1], [2], [3], [4], independent edition, by several authors (academics, inclusive) - ISBN 978-989-677-153-9.--Yup12 (talk) 13:05, 27 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

On the official website of the Patriarchate of Lisbon [5]--Yup12 (talk) 13:32, 28 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
In Portuguese newspapers:
  • "Sol do Apocalipse, peça litúrgica única em Portugal, mostra-se no domingo em Mafra". Diário de Notícias (in Portuguese).
  • "Encontrados em Mafra manuscritos no manto de uma imagem de Nossa Senhora". RTP (in Portuguese).
  • "Descobertos manuscritos ocultos em manto de Nossa Senhora da Basílica de Mafra". Diário de Notícias (in Portuguese).
  • "Descobertos báculos do primeiro cardeal-patriarca usados na Basílica de Mafra". Público (in Portuguese).
  • "Trono eucarístico do século XVIII exposto na Basílica de Mafra". TSF (in Portuguese).
  • "Descobertos manuscritos ocultos". Público (in Portuguese).--Yup12 (talk) 20:20, 11 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
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