Talk:Rochus Misch

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Good articleRochus Misch has been listed as one of the History good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
June 27, 2015Good article nomineeListed
On this day...A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "On this day..." column on September 5, 2019.

Jewish wife and daughter[edit]

Apparently he married a woman who was secretly Jewish and his daughter is a somewhat practicing Jew. Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8237708.stm

Jewish roots

Father and daughter seemed to have little in common. They argued. Then Brigitta's maternal grandmother let her into an amazing secret: Brigitta's mother was Jewish.

"My grandmother said to me, 'I think it's good to keep in touch with your roots. But don't tell your mother. She doesn't want that."

Mr Misch refused to accept that his wife was Jewish.

"He is still saying, 'No, I won't believe that!'. But I know it from my Grandma."

Brigitta learnt Hebrew, she spent time on a kibbutz in Israel. Back in Germany, she made a career as an architect. Among the projects she worked on were the restoration of local synagogues. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Existancesin (talk • contribs) 02:21, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Any SS man had to prove his "Aryan" ancestry, and this includes their wives (Ariernachweis). A SS man needed the official permission to merry, he simply couldn't merry a Jewish girl or someone having Jewish ancestry. 87.188.175.63 (talk) 05:51, 9 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Records were sometimes faked - the system wasn't infallible - if that's the word to use in this case of rampant, evil homocidal racism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.111.25.210 (talk) 03:10, 31 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Downfall (film)[edit]

It would be interesting to add Rochus Misch's opinions on the film "Der untergang" if anyone can find out what those are.

The following is cited from [1]:
ROCHUS MISCH UND DER SPIELFILM "DER UNTERGANG"
"Die Leistungen der einzelnen Schauspieler waren in Ordnung. Sehr enttäuscht war ich, als mich der Regisseur des Films, Bernd :Eichinger, erst besuchte, als der Film schon ca. 4 Wochen in den Kinos lief. Er hatte sich an Joachim Fests Buch "Der Untergang" :orientiert. Dieser Schriftsteller hat mir Äußerungen in den Mund gelegt, die ich nie gesagt habe. Weder hat er mich besucht oder mit :mir telefoniert. Ich kenne ihn gar nicht!
So entsprechen auch einige Szenen nicht der historischen Wahrheit. Traudl Junge* konnte bei Hitlers Selbstmord überhaupt nicht den :Schuß hören. Sie schreibt selbst, dass sie sich bei Hitlers Selbstmord im Vorbunker mit den Goebbels-Kindern aufhielt und Hitler im :Hauptbunker. Dazwischen lag der Maschinenraum. Von dem ging ein solcher Lärm aus, dass weder sie noch eines der Kinder den Knall hören :konnten".
Perhaps someone could include it? --Thf1977 22:21, 6 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Can anyone translate this to English please? L337 Krew (talk) 21:47, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

ROCHUS MISCH AND THE MOVIE "DER UNTERGANG" (The Downfall)

"The performance of the actors was okay. I was very disappoined by the fact that the director of the movie, Bernd Eichinger, didn't visit me until the movie had already been shown for four weeks in movie theaters. He had based the movie on the book "Der Untergang" by Joachim Fest. This author had put words in my mouth which I had never said. The author had never visited me or interviewed me by phone. I don't even know him!
So some scenes are not in accordance with the historical truth. Traudl Junge* could definitely not have heard the shot when Hitler killed himself. She writes herself that she when Hitler killed himself was in the front bunker together with the Goebbels-children, and Hitler was in the rear bunker. Between these bunkers was a machine-room. From the machine-room came such a loud noise that neither the children nor she (Junge) could hear the shot. Translation by Roger491127 (talk) 13:45, 15 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Still alive[edit]

"Of those who were in the Führerbunker in April-May 1945, he is the only one still living." Taken off because Günther Schwägermann, b.1915, is also apparrntly still alive. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.132.27.108 (talk) 01:39, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Clarification needed[edit]

There is this unreferenced sentence in the article, [D]uring the early Allied occupation of Berlin [Misch] also became involved in the making of peanut butter for American troops, which I think is quite intriguing. What exactly is "early Allied occupation of Berlin" supposed to mean? Misch was released from captivity in 1954, when Berlin had already been occupied for nearly ten years.--FoxyOrange (talk) 22:17, 15 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Could Misch be the soldier holding the tattered pants, in the photo ...[edit]

... in the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler_Assassination_Plot article?? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.132.46.2 (talk) 17:55, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No. That's a Wehrmacht soldier, not a member of the SS. 87.188.175.63 (talk) 05:42, 9 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review[edit]

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Rochus Misch/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Jonas Vinther (talk · contribs) 22:04, 25 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Kierzek, you should have told this was up for GA-review and I would have reviewed it right away. Well, no worries; I'll get to this first thing tomorrow where I'll have plenty of time. :) Jonas Vinther • (Click here to collect your price!) 22:04, 25 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • Lede definitely needs expansion. With the length, and especially comprehensiveness, of this article it shouldn't be too hard Done
  • "Unterscharführer" in the caption of the infobox image should be italicized Done
  • "now Stare Siołkowice, Opole Voivodeship, Poland" write all this in brackets Done
  • "1937–1945" in the infobox should be written as "1937-45" per WP:DATEFORMAT Done
  • "Oberscharführer" should also be italicized Done
  • "SS-Verfügungstruppe" italicize this also Done
  • Consider including the abbreviation of both the Leibstandarte and Führerbegleitkommando in the infobox  Done tweaked
  • "Daughter Brigitta Jacob-Engelken" write this as "Brigitta Jacob-Engelken (daughter)" Done
  • "Misch was born" tweak this to "Rochus Misch was born". Also, mention date of birth instead of just the birthplace Done
  • It could just be the fact I'm not a native speaker of English, but "pneumonia" strikes as the kind of word that should be linked; that is, unless you, a native speaker of English, feel differently Done
  • "His older brother Bruno died after an accident which occurred in May 1922" any details about the accident? Car accident? Military accident? Fire accident? If not, just leave it as it is Done
  • "with the firm of Schmüller and Model" tweak this to "with the firm of Schmüller & Model" as I'm sure that is how the firm title is promoted Done
  • "Misch attended the Masters' School for Fine Arts in Cologne" link Cologne Done
  • "After six months, he returned to Hoyerswerda to continue his training" this is the first time the article mentions "Hoyerswerda" so curb the "he returned" bit or tweak it Done tweaked it, see what you think.
  • "They had a daughter, Brigitta Jacob-Engelken who has supported Jewish causes" if she supported Jewish courses later after the war, mention that, or mention that she supported Jewish courses during the Third Reich, whatever one is correct ***good point- Done
  • "his regiment was attached to XIII Army Corps" add "the" just before XIII Army Corps Done
  • "a part of the Eighth Army" write it as "8th Army" Done
  • "This was made up of SS members, including men from the LSSAH who no longer had to serve on the front lines" add a comma just after LSSAH Done
  • "Misch was transferred to the FBK on 2 or 3 May 1940" tweak to "Misch was transferred to the FBK in early May 1940" Done
  • I would strongly recommend change the section title form "Service" to "World War II" or "World War II service" or something similar Done tweaked it to "Military service" because part of the time was before the war in Europe started with a sub-section entitled "World War II"
  • "By that date, as the Red Army was entering Berlin, Joseph Goebbels and his wife Magda" tweak to "By that date, as the Red Army was entering Berlin, propaganda minister Joseph Goebbels and his wife Magda" Done
  • "brought their six young children" link Goebbels children Done
  • "On 30 April, Hitler and Eva Braun committed suicide" mention they got married 40 hours before. Like, "On 30 April, Hitler and Eva Braun, having married each other 40 hours previously, committed suicide" Done added to and tweaked it
  • "he could leave" tweak to "he was free to leave" Done
  • "Misch was brought to the Lubyanka Prison in Moscow, where he was tortured in an attempt to extract information regarding Hitler's exact fate" might be a good idea to mention that the international media, and especially Stalin, was extremely interested in theories about Hitler's possible escape and believed early on he didn't die in the bunker! Done
  • "At the time, Misch's wife Gerda" write either "Misch's wife" or "Gerda", not both; her name and the fact she was his wife has already been explained earlier on Done
  • "worked as a teacher in Neukolln" link Neukolln Done
  • "Gerda died in 1998" of natural causes? Any info on this? Done
  • "Misch managed his shop until his retirement at age 68" also mention what year he retired Done
  • "Brigitta's maternal grandmother told her that her mother Gerda was Jewish. Misch refused to acknowledge it" find this sentence somewhat confusion! Gerda was his wife and he never once asked her about her religious beliefs? Furthermore, it's a widely known fact among Nazi Germany buffs that brides of SS men also had to prove that they were of pure Aryan ancestry which obviously wouldn't have worked for Gerda is she was Jewish! I suppose it's possible that Hitler's fondness for Misch maybe led to an exception (like did for other half-Jews), but then that would most likely be a known fact. In any case, tweak the wording about let me know what you come up with. Done
  • "J'étais garde du corps d'Hitler 1940–1945 (I was Hitler's bodyguard 1940–1945) in March 2006, ISBN 2253121541" include the ISBN number in the brackets Done
  • "the 2008 film Valkyrie, a depiction of the 20 July plot" tweak to "the 2008 film Valkyrie, a Hollywood depiction of the 20 July plot" as tens of movies have been made about the 20 July plot. Fixed
  • "Misch is portrayed by actor Heinrich Schmieder" why is this specific part written in italics? None of the other "Misch is portrayed by actor" sentences are written in italics. ***Just a minor overlooked sentence error. Fixed
  • Merely a suggestion, but I would write "Sources" instead of "Bibliography", but this is just a tiny detail. Done
  • All in all, this article doesn't need much editing to pass for GA-status. Looks nicely written. Please ping me when you have responded to my points and I'll take a final look at it. Best, Jonas Vinther • (Click here to collect your price!) 18:21, 26 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Jonas Vinther:, I am done with the above. Kierzek (talk) 04:54, 27 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Kierzek, the article looks much better now. I'm passing it, excellent job. That being said, it would be worth mentioning his wife in the lead and add some more images to the body text of the article, but overall it's very good! Jonas Vinther • (Click here to collect your price!) 11:29, 27 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the review. Cheers, Kierzek (talk) 14:10, 27 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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Home in Rudow[edit]

The article used to say that Misch returned to a home three kilometers from the Führerbunker. That's wrong. He returned to Rudow in 1953, which is roughly 20 kilometers from the center of Berlin.

The taxi driver did not want the fare. First he set down my friend at Britz, then carried on to Rudow. I read the street signs, some with the names of flowers, and then the street in which I lived - had lived - a long time ago. The taxi pulled up at the number I had given. I was home.

There stood my parents-in-law's small house, which I had last seen on 22 April 1945 - it looked exactly as I had remembered it. My wife had lived there since the end of the war. The first person I saw at the door was my mother-in-law. Shortly after that, Gerda joined her. It was 31 December 1953.

— Rochus Misch, Hitler's Last Witness: The Memoirs of Hitler's Bodyguard, p 206

Misch also mentions that he and his wife had a flat in Karlshorst for a few years, but that's about 15 km from Mitte as well.

He lived in Rudow before the war and from 1954 until his death. Other sources:

...the home in a working-class Berlin neighborhood that he kept until his death.
[2], Associated Press, 6 September 2013
...in seinem Häuschen in Rudow, ...
[3], Der Tagesspiegel, 22 November 2013
Hier, in einer Nebenstraße in Rudow, wohnt Rochus Misch.
[4], Express Köln, 25 January 2011
...in his flat in south Berlin’s leafy Rudow neighborhood.
[5], Reuters, 26 January 2011
...versuchte sich zu seiner Frau und seiner einjährigen Tochter nach Berlin-Rudow durchzuschlagen.
[6], Der Spiegel, 6 September 2013
Since then he has lived an anonymous existence in the Berlin suburb of Rudow. [...] I met with Misch for this interview in the little house he has lived in since 1942.
[7], Salon, 21 February 2005
He returned to his two-storey home in the east Berlin suburb of Rudow ...
[8], The Daily Telegraph, 6 September 2013

-- Chrisahn (talk) 17:45, 28 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Misch returned to a home three kilometers from the Führerbunker. This is from RS source Felton (2014), p. 160. Since he is the only one who states that, I have removed it, given the weight of the other sources. The other ones you cite, are new and not previously in the article to support the other location for his in-laws house where he lived. I read the cited sources, but the mention of Rudow was not seen on the page of version of Misch's book, I cited. The BBC-Misch and the Los Angeles Times article of Cruise, Singer and McQuarrie discuss 'Valkyrie', do not mention the house being in Rudow. They do support the sentence, thereafter. I have, therefore, added a cite that states the house was in Rudow, for that sentence from Misch's book page that you have linked above. BTW - I originally removed the one BBC cite, as it does not mention where his house was located, which is what was covered in the original version of the first sentence, then cited to Felton. Kierzek (talk) 18:35, 28 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks! (It doesn't matter much anymore, but I don't think Felton actually makes that claim. A search for 'Misch' in his book on Google Books only brings up three results. One of them is this: "SS-Oberscharführer Rochus Misch, the bunker telephone operator, was one of the last to flee on 2 May 1945. He was captured by the Soviets, released in 1954 and for many years was the last living witness to what happened in the bunker." No details about his return to Berlin.) -- Chrisahn (talk) 20:25, 28 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It is better now. As for Felton, I am looking at the hardback book in hand: "He lived in Berlin for the rest of his (p. 159) life, just 3km from the ruined Führerbunker " (p. 160). I have found that previews do not always show the entire page or even paragraph, as your link shows on its face. It is moot now, anyway, as you said. Cheers, Kierzek (talk) 20:59, 28 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks! I downloaded the book and also found that sentence. I had searched the Google Book for "kilometres", "3" and "three", but not for "3km". :-) Misch's address in Rudow is easy to find (but I won't publish it here). It's in the northern part of Rudow, but still almost 12 km from the former Führerbunker. I wonder why Felton wrote that. I guess we'll never know. -- Chrisahn (talk) 22:01, 28 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Günther Schwägermann[edit]

Misch was widely reported in the media as being the last surviving former occupant of the Führerbunker when he died in September 2013. There is also Günther Schwägermann who was in the bunker, as far as I know his death date is unknown, and it is not listed on Wikipedia. He *could* still be alive, or have lived long than Misch, though both options are unlikely. Though it is still wrong to state that Misch was the last bunker survivor, if nobody knows the age of Schwägermann, it is possible he lived longer. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.93.100.14 (talk) 12:49, 8 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

One cannot claim something about someone that is not known through mainline historians. It is fair to write what is known and “reported” by WP:RS mainline collaborating sources until new substantiated evidence is known. We have to go by reliable sources and cannot write about speculation and conjecture, that is WP:OR. Which is not allowed. Kierzek (talk) 18:24, 8 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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