Talk:Real-estate lock box

Requested move 23 April 2021[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. There is consensus that this topic is not primary for "lockbox", however spaced and hyphenated, as such spaces/hyphens are usually ENGVAR issue rather than changing the meaning. Some suggested changing to some other name such as keysafe, but that did not get a clear consensus. (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 06:40, 27 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Real-estate lock box → Lock box – I requested at Uncontroversial Technical Requests that Lock box and Lockbox should be reversed, since the overwhelming use in the article's body text was for "lockbox" without the space, for which most major online dictionaries I have checked concur, some giving "lock box" as an alternative, and (UK) Collins saying it is a synonym for "keysafe". As a UK Citizen, I am not sure it is qute a synonym, as here it says it goes over the handle of a ~~lock~~doorknob>^{bold CE by proposer to correct the facts}, whereas a keysafe is usually mounted to a wall.

Per WP:SMALLDETAILS, this might go to Lock box without the nearly WP:NATURALDIS of "real estate". But it's a bit iffy, because the references state "lock box", none states "real estate lock box", so this is kinda WP:OR to put "real estate" in front of it: in short, it is not a natural disambiguation because nobody refers to it as a "real estate lock box". either we go "Lock box (real estate)" or just plain "Lock box". I'm not trying to game the system, it just seemed in everyone's interest to get the uncontroversial redirect switch done before. 94.21.10.117 (talk) 00:31, 23 April 2021 (UTC) 94.21.10.117 (talk) 00:31, 23 April 2021 (UTC) —Relisting. Elli (talk | contribs) 00:32, 20 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

~~Oppose~~Comment Having the articles at Lockbox and Lock box would certainly not be unambiguous. Something like Lockbox (banking) and Lock box (real estate), with Lock box as a dab page, would be much better. 162 etc. (talk) 02:06, 23 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That's not really an "oppose" !vote, since I don't think the status quo is satisfactory either. You may be right that a WP:TWODABS at the base page name is the best solution. page views are almost useless here because the inbuilt search often hides redirects, and the page stats tool doesn't put them in the drop down (hence I added it myself). We're on the same side here, we agree that having the two disambiguated in this way is unsatisfactory. I'm warming to your idea of making it a TWODABS.

You may have noticed that "Real-estate lock box" has a hyphen in "Real-estate", which is maybe OK depending on which grammar guide you follow, it would be OK if you assume that "lock" here is also an noun adjunct (it's a box with a real estate lock), but it isn't, is it? It is a lock box used by realtors ((UK: estate agents), so shouldn't have the hyphen in it anyway, it should be "real estate lock box". Patently that WP:AT is out of whack with various MoS and so on, the question is, what to do with it. I'm warming to the idea of the TWODABS, I admit. I hadn't thought of that. 94.21.10.117 (talk) 08:39, 23 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I've rephrased the above. I'll also note that the "real estate" disambiguator could be argued too, as these boxes are not exclusive to that industry. See this Amazon search for Key lock boxes. 162 etc. (talk) 14:13, 23 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I have with my British English always called the wall-mounted ones keysafes and that is the normal word for me. Dictionaries list it, and it may be worth creating the redirects key safe andkeysafe. For example Cambridge Online Dictionary lists it as a headword, but the OED has not heard of it, online at least. You're right it is a dodgy disambiguator. I would presume, as an engineer, that requires a particular style of handle on apartments/condominiums that may be common in the US (I lived there) but wouldn't work in the rest of the world. Believe me, I have fitted locks and handles to many places where I live which is neither the UK nor the US, and the one shown in the picture would just slip off in two New York seconds... I am still with you that I think the TWODABS is probably the best solution. To make explicit, obviously both Lock box and Lockbox should go to the same place, they do not have distinct meanings per WP:SMALLDETAILS, I checked the refs etc and they seem to be used interchangeably. I only requested the move because the exclusive use beyond the WP:FIRSTSENTENCE was "lockbox", so that is just MOS:ARTCON and I think uncontroversial. But this disambiguating phrase stinks, I agree. 94.21.10.117 (talk) 03:34, 24 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. I notice that Key box and Keybox redirect here, but not Keysafe nor Key safe. Perhaps this is WP:ENGVAR, but my natural British English is to call one mounted on, or in, a wall a keysafe. Dictionaries list it thus. If you're cockney you can call it a peter. I think because Saint Peter was Jesus' safe man, the man who opens safes, and of course the man who saved Jesus, so it's a cockney pun. 94.21.10.117 (talk) 09:20, 23 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. I should have added, that Wiktionary hasn't "keysafe" nor "key safe" but does have wikt:lockbox, it hasn't "lock box" with the space. WP:NOTDIC and all that, but it does tend to show, with the other dictionaries, that what has happened is what is linguistically called I would say "noun fusion" but that is old-fashioned, nowadays it is called a blend (linguistics).

I am not overly fussed about this, it is just that we shouldn't WP:SURPRISE. I just hit "Random article" and start making it better. I have no particular interest in this, but I do know a bit about locksmithing and so on, and the decorative use and the real estate use are distinct. For example, I have a Betjemann tantalus (cabinet), the lock on that is quite easy to break, so is that decorative? Yes, I would say. It's locked but just take the whole thing and take the top bar off at your leisure. It is hardly a safeguard is it. So this is what we find, are the locks used decoratively? Yes. They are useless as actually safeguarding property, because Bob the Burglar just steals the whole thing, locked or not. Perhaps "lock" is the tricky bit, I haven't thought this through. It isn't, the padlock, even a lock in the conventional sense, it's a combination lock. I am struggling to try to find a decent disambiguating phrase. Perhaps Lock box (doorknob) is the best we could do... but I am not happy with it. 94.21.10.117 (talk) 04:23, 24 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Another comment After looking at "What links here", it turns out that this article is almost orphaned. We could consider deleting this page and merging to Real estate broker#Lock-box instead. 162 etc. (talk) 22:27, 24 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Support as proposed - makes perfect sense to me Red Slash 17:16, 19 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: With or without a space, a "lock box" or "lockbox" is a safe or a vault or a locker – it is a box that is locked. It is a place for the figurative or literal safekeeping of items, as famously promoted by U.S. presidential candidates Al Gore and George W. Bush (please click that link!), e.g., as reported in this article in the Los Angeles Times (and discussed in several different Wikipedia articles, such as at 2000 United States presidential election § Notable expressions and phrases). This proposed move would make the situation even more confusing than it already is, and it is already confusing. It is common for some compound terms to either include a space or not include a space or a hyphen as a minor stylistic difference that has no impact on meaning – e.g., see American and British English spelling differences § Compounds and hyphens. This primary meaning of "lock box" / "lockbox" isn't even mentioned in either of these articles. Something else should be done – but something should be done. A "lockbox" is certainly not primarily an accounts receivable processing service and it is not little lockbox for holding a key for real estate agents. "Lockbox (banking)" is also not clear at all, since banks also have safe deposit boxes and bank vaults, which are lockboxes. I suggest Keysafe for this article and Lockbox (accounts receivable) for the other one, and creating a disambiguation page that would list all three meanings and also the one related to information security & cryptography. A post office box or something like an Amazon Locker is also a lockbox. — BarrelProof (talk) 02:40, 20 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose The current redirect makes perfect sense. Moving the article there would result in WP:SURPRISE._{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 14:16, 21 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - Extremely niche topic not suitable for the encyclopedia - better merged with lockbox and real estate agent#lock-box. Its just a specialty lockbox like many others. If I were forced to pick a name for this page I'd go with key safe and expand it to include the bigger wall-mounted key storage units, much like gun safe covers all sizes from bedside handgun safes to huge safes that hold whole collections. -- Netoholic @ 11:48, 22 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose – The "small details" obviously do not serve to distinguish these topics, so the proposal makes not sense. Both Lockbox and Lock box should go to a disambig page, and the article titles should have disambiguators. Dicklyon (talk) 18:03, 22 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose the primary topic for "lockbox" and "lock box" should be the same. As an American, I would personally call this a "key box" or "key safe"; I think this may be an ENGVAR issue. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 18:42, 22 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.