Talk:Portuguese

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HELLO SIR,

I AM MANISH DARYANI FROM AJMER(RAJASTHAN)(INDIA) AND I AM WORKING IN LUANDA(ANGOLA) NOW A DAYAS WHAT I KNOW ABOUT THE PORTUGESE AND WHAT I REALIESED THAT PORTUGUSE IS SPOKEN HERE IN BRAZIL IN PORTUGAL BUT THE PROUNCATION IS VER DIFFERENT LIKE ANGOLA THE ANGOLANS SPEAKS PORTUGUESE LIKE WORD BY WORD THE PORTUGUESE SPEAKS A LITTILE BIT FAST BUT THE BRAZILIENS SPEAKS PORTYUGUESE VERY-VERY FAST AND THERE PORTUGUESE IS VERY VERY FAST SOMETIMES IT IS A LITTLE BIT DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND AND THEY SPEAKS VERY (CHA-CHA) IN PORTUGUESE .

THANKS

MY MAIL ID IS manish_daryani@yahoo.com

hello Manish, Like in India we also speak our Mother tounge i.e Hindi...but still we don't have the similar accent from every state...it differs when you go from north to south...so this is also same Portuguese is different every where...you have to just pick the accent and pronounciations. I you like to share something more then you can mail to me. Himanshu Sehrawat himanshu_sehrawat@rediffmail.com

Portuguese language

Hi guys, I'm from Brazil and I'm surprised how many countries speak Portuguese. It's easy to understan once during a long period Portuga and Spain were the two big navigators countries. But regarding pronunciation, here in Brazil also we have completely different kinds of pronunciations and even words. In such a big country, peple from the South speak one way, in the Countryside another, in the North too. But what really surprises me is that in Portugal that ruled us, because the soap operas in the tv they are starting to speak more like us. Have a nice day (or evening) Mordechay100 (talk) 00:19, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Portuguese as a descriptive term

The second revert of my entry Portuguese House of Habsburg by The Emperor's New Spy was tagged with the following edit summary:

The made up term Portuguese House of Habsburg for the Philippine Dynasty does not come up to a reader's mind when they search Portuguese.

• Do you know what comes up to a reader's mind for every reader of Wikipedia? or is it really that you have a problem with what you call a "made up term Portuguese House of Habsburg"...
• Please explain the difference between:
  1. House of Habsburg in Portugal (which is used in the lead of the Philippine Dynasty article)
  2. Portuguese House of Habsburg

Then please go on to tell me why it is okay to use "Portuguese" as a descriptive term for "Portuguese man o' war", "Portuguese people", "Portuguese language", "Portuguese dialects", "Portuguese cuisine" and so many other Portuguese things that are found in this list, but it's not okay to use "Portuguese" to describe the House of Habsburg known as the Philippine Dynasty? Why is this such a problem? – Paine Ellsworth ^CLIMAX! 11:57, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

It foremost a made up term popularized by the edits of User:Cristiano Tomás. Searching google books you find no reliable source which uses the term "Portuguese House of Habsburg". Why because there is no such thing as a Portuguese branch of the House of Habsburg or a ruling House of Habsburg in Portugal; Portugal was ruled by the Spanish Habsburgs or just the House of Habsburg since the Spanish branch was the main line. There was never a separate Portuguese branch distinct from the Spanish or main House of Habsburg. The term Philipine Dynasty is Portuguese history term for the period of Spanish rule and the three monarchs who ruled Portugal; Philip II of Spain's younger sons and daughters are not Philipine Dynasts or Portuguese, they are Habsburgs or Spanish Habsburgs. As for it's inclusion here there is no reason to include it here for the same reason we won't include the Spanish Habsburgs on the Spanish page or the Austrian Habsburgs on the Austrian page (these are all legit terms unlike Portuguese Habsburg). If you going for the reason that it begins with Portuguese as a descriptive therefore it should be included, why are you putting Portuguese Bend here or all the rest of the terms beginning in Portuguese? You already have a link to all terms beginning in Portuguese in the see also section.--The Emperor's New Spy (talk) 20:04, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

That sounds like a well-informed version of Portuguese history. Perhaps you will include it on that history page, because I find it interesting that neither the Habsburgs nor the Philippine Dynasty are even mentioned in that article about the "history of Portugal". What's up with that? Also, you seem to have forgotten to answer my question about the difference between the phrases "House of Habsburg in Portugal" and "Portuguese House of Habsburg". I do see some things about your argument with which I would have to agree. There are a lot of notable terms that begin with "Portuguese" that are not directly included on this dab page, and to include them all would make the page a mile long. We don't want to do that, so we have to stop somewhere. I take mild exception with your argument for non-inclusion based on the fact that there is no Spanish House of Habsburg or Austrian House of Habsburg on their respective dab pages. The Spanish HoH is included in the Spanish Empire link, and the Austrian HoH is brought out on the page to which the Austrian monarchy link redirects. So the Habsburgs are there on those dab pages, but just called a different name. So you haven't quite convinced me, yet, even though I do see some good in your argument. The main idea to get across is the virtually every term that begins with "Portuguese" is a "made-up" term. At some point in history, somebody had to have "made up" these terms, or we would not have these terms today. So when you call "Portuguese House of Habsburg" a made-up term, how is that different from all the other terms that had to be made up by somebody at some point in time? It is a descriptive term, just like the "Portuguese" in "Portuguese people", just like the "Portuguese" in "Portuguese language". In all these cases, the word "Portuguese" is an adjective, i.e., a word that describes a noun or noun phrase. House of Habsburg is a noun (house) followed by a prepositional phrase (of Habsburg), and I see nothing wrong with describing the House of Habsburg in Portugal as the "Portuguese House of Habsburg". Unless you can further convince me, then we may have to go to Rfc to resolve this. Thank you for a fine response and a formidable effort! – Paine Ellsworth ^CLIMAX! 01:17, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

As an encyclopedia we can't make up terms that is original research. Both terms are not used in reliable sources. Go to WP:Rfc, I think I have a stronger case than you.--The Emperor's New Spy (talk) 12:31, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Well, my friend, I did not make up the term "Portuguese House of Habsburg". It's painfully obvious that you did not make it up. So who do you blame for this serious allegation of original research? You contend it is a "made-up term" that is not used in reliable sources. I contend that the "un-made-up" part of the term, "House of Habsburg", is merely being described by the honorable word, "Portuguese". We shall see who as you say has the stronger case. Since it is just you and me here, perhaps we should try WP:Third opinion. That may help if we then decide to go to Rfc. I would also like to make note of the fact that Portuguese House of Habsburg is a redirect to the Philippine Dynasty article, and that the redirect recently survived an Rfd discussion. Joys! – Paine Ellsworth ^CLIMAX! 12:32, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

 Listed at WP:3 12:37, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Response to third opinion request ( Disagreement about the inclusion of an entry on a disambiguation page. ):

I am responding to a third opinion request for this page. I have made no previous edits on Portuguese and have no known association with the editors involved in this discussion. The third opinion process is informal and I have no special powers or authority apart from being a fresh pair of eyes.

A quick google shows a number of pages using the phrase "Portuguese House of Habsburg" (eg. [1][2][3][4][5] [6]), so it's not a "made up term". Having said that I don't think it's high on the list of what people will be after when they search for "Portuguese" - if we list this particular House we should by rights be listing all the other "Portugese Houses" as well, not to mention a whole bunch of other "Portuguese xxx" pages with equal or more importance. So my opinion is that the term is valid, but it doesn't have enough weight/importance to be included as its own entry on this disambiguation page. I note that it's included via the "all pages starting with 'Portuguese'" in the See Also section. Tobus2 (talk) 12:52, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Thank you, Tobus2, for your 3rd-party response. I will acquiesce, then, and accept that Portuguese House of Habsburg is not likely to be included on this dab page even after an Rfc. Very sorry to put you through all this, The Emperor's New Spy, and thank you for your persistence! Joys! – Paine Ellsworth ^CLIMAX! 16:29, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

@Tobus2: I just want to state that most of your links are unreliable. Some of them are straight copies of Wikipedia articles and other are probably sourced or influenced by contents of Wikipedia. If it is on Wikipedia it will matriculate to other cites and even occasionally books.--The Emperor's New Spy (talk) 01:29, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

Also Paine Ellsworth I never stated you made it up. I have no idea who made it up but I know User:Cristiano Tomás did spread it around Wikipedia. It survived a Rfd discussion because being made up wasn't a criteria for deleting a redirect. It is wrong because no reliable sources use the term. I strongly stand by the fact that it is a made up and fake term. It is either the Philipine Dynasty, House of Habsburg, even Casa de Habsburgo but never Portuguese House of Habsburg. --The Emperor's New Spy (talk) 01:36, 13 October 2013 (UTC)