Talk:Poodle/Archive 1

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Archive 1 Archive 2

Age

I have had poodles all my life, and my parents had them before I was even born. I'v seen some of our poodles live well passed the ages listed here. I also have a cousin who had a standard poodle live for 19 years. My godmother has a poodle hybrid who is 15 and still acts like a puppy dispite eyesight problems. Poodles are often known for their lone and energetic lifes, perhaps the ages should boosted slightly in the "Not unheard age" area? --Azslande 19:26, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Although what you note is anecdotal evidence, the 10-12 years cited in this article does seem low to me. Is there another reference? --SG

The health concerns need to be changed. There is no such thing as "dying of old age." There is such thing as kidney failure, or liver failure, heart failure, cancer, etc., but there is no disease called "old age." To say that someone died of old age is saying that you don't know why they died in the first place. That needs to be changed. --Justin

opening photo

the opening photo of the poodle is distinctly fugly, can we have a picture of a poodle that is a better ambassador of the breed —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.93.21.101 (talk • contribs) 21:43, 4 August 2006

I agree. Seeing this is an encyclopedia, it would be nice to have conformation shots of an ideal specimen of the breed as the opening, boxed photo. It would give the reader a clear idea of what the breed is supposed to look like. Mllefantine 21:59, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I sugest Poodel-Standard; Linie Sirus is the breed standard. This picture is 40 years old. --90.186.89.126 11:20, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I changed the opening photo. The introductory paragraph says that this is gun dog noted for water ability. I think that a photo that corresponds to that description is the best way to go.--Counsel 18:41, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Photos removed from article

18 weeks Toy poodles

This black photo had replaced a clearer photo of a black poodle--haircut is of interest but photo needs cropping & is harder to see against dark background. Elf | Talk 01:51, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

One year old Toy Poodle resting.

This photo not sure that it adds anything to the article although it's a nice shot--might reconsider, as it's the only decent face-on shot.Elf | Talk 01:58, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you, and removed the photo at least temporarily. What is the rule on cropping other peoples photos? because if this phot were cropped to get rid of the dorm room background and the excessive blanket, to zero in on the dogs face, it might be a usful pic to keep around. I can crop the pic, but I am not sure what the copy right rules are. Anyone have any ideas?65.92.213.32 06:15, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Personally I think that this picture is a much better one than the badly focused one currently adorning the temperament section of the article, it's only problem being it is so small and has a lot of mess around the dogs face. I say, put this one back and remove the current face on picture.--Hellahulla 19:06, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
File:Toy poodle.jpg
Apricot Toy Poodle

I removed this photo of the apricot toy poodle from the uses section. It is a bad picture that doesn't really show anything significant about the poodle breed. Perhaps if someone were to ad a section about the problems with light coloured poodles 'tearing' and staining their eyes, it might be usful, but as of right now, it doesn't add anything to the article. If anyone has a good picture of an apricot poodle, it would be nice to add. 65.92.213.32 06:11, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Pictures Needed!

I am really disapointed with the selection of photos in this article. As someone commented earlier, there are way too many, but more importantly, nearly all of the photos are candid shots of Poddles around the house. Considering this is an encyclopedic artical, it would be very beneficial to have some pictures of dogs in conformation stance (stacked), and displaying the different coat colours, different sized poodles, and the different grooming styles. I personally would enjoy seeing pictures of poodles doing other things than sitting around the house, such as agility, obedience, retrieving, etc. Mllefantine 21:53, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I think the added pictures are a huge improvement to the quality of the site, however, I think the pictures still needs some major trimming. Seeing Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, I think the pictures used should be limited to a few select photos which are a) of professional or near professional quality and b) pictures that represent a wide variety of the breeds skills/appearences. Is it really necessary to have four photographs of poodles laying around the house? I realize they are great house dogs, but the pictures are dreadful! Any photographer would cringe if they saw them. This page is beginning to look like people are just using wikipeadia to make their own pets famous. It's cluttered, untidy, and unprofessional looking. I would like to get an okay to remove at least 3 or 4 of the lesser quality photos. 65.92.213.32 06:02, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to add my comments about the images in the article: 1)Bo WC .jpg The opening picture of the working poodle retrieving, is probably the best picture in the article, it shows a healthy good looking dog doing what poodles are best at and is a general good picture.
2)MinPoodle wb.jpg Apart from the obvious problem of the image having bits of a man in it (really should be with no people or a whole person with their dog) it also looks unbrushed and the cut is hardly flattering of the poodle's body form (there is no definition of the leg muscles and the dog does look a little slim).
3)Poodle.jpg Despite the dog clearly being happy and having loving owners it looks slightly overweight, the cut is certainly not flattering (the dog looks like it has almost got a Mohican!) and the ear hair looks like it's not been cleaned or brushed in a long time. This image is the one all the different language wikis associate with poodles, it's not a good example picture at all.
4)Red Standard Poodle.JPG This image is a good example of a poodle that has actually been brushed properly and trimmed well, however it is too small, there is too much clutter in the picture (not enough focus on the animal really) and of course there is currently a dispute about whether the image can be used here or not.
5)Caniche-actif.JPG A lovely picture of a happy poodle in a lovely environment, it shows the agility and bounciness of the breed well and I can't think of any way to improve it.
6)Facetieux.jpeg Although it's the same dog as in the other picture the focus is so wrong it looks like a phone camera picture, the dog does not look happy in this picture and because it is close on the unbrushed hair is obvious
7)Blacktoypoodle.jpg Such a cute puppy but sadly a very poor image, probably the worst one still on here, although it is from a powershot it looks like it's from my old Nokia. Such a shame as this is a lovely looking dog.
8)Blond Older Poodle Enjoying Water.JPG The information claims that the dog likes getting as wet as possible, however it looks like it's miserable and looks like it's been planted there for a picture. Also, I can appreciate that it is hard to keep a poodle clean and brushed but that poodle looks like it's not been getting much brushing at all and really really needs a trim.
9)Toy 'parti' poodle puppies - 1.JPG No comment :)
I have been quite harsh, but this article needs some better and newer pictures soon.--Hellahulla 19:55, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Poodles are high maintanence dogs. The fact that the poodles look the way that they do is only a reflection of what the majority of poodles look like. The "show ready" poodle is not the normal poodle. The goal of the article is to reflect reality, not advertise.--Counsel 23:08, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Having tried to track down pictures for various breeds I can tell you that getting decent pics for an article is difficult. Getting professional quality pictures for an article is hard, since there are serious copyright issues involved. Hellahulla, if you have a ready source of professional quality poodle pics, I suggest you share them. The Dogfather 18:21, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

This is in regards to Hellahulla's message about Blonder Older poodle enjoying water.jpg.

I am the owner of her. Her name is Chloe. Do not ever question again how well I take care of my pet. She is brushed out daily. She does actually enjoy water. She is 18 years old. I am sorry that she doesn't have the standard poodle look but I don't like it. Her hair is also kept longer for the winter because she gets cold easily. I am not going to debate the merits of a picture that you didn't take. I did. We had been out all day so she was a little messy. Ooops! You are more than welcome to call the picture horrible. It wasn't the best one I have ever taken but my pup is well cared for. I will not have you looking at a single picture and then deciding how well I take care of her. --Justin67.121.239.70 06:43, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I was simply stating that the fur is not being brushed down to the base and that the dog happens to have a sad expression on her face, don't take that as me putting down your dog care skills. For a dog that age you're better off keeping the fur shorter (trimming a poodle does not mean making her look like a show dog, it just means keeping the fur manageable and healthy) and getting a coat for her for winter, as poodle fur does not keep the heat anywhere near as well as other dog furs and will just get matted in the snow (and winter wetness if you don't get snow down your end) and cause tangles and discomfort and more work for you to do. --Hellahulla 13:58, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry about the last two posts. I didn't mean to make this discussion page into a flame war and I will not post anymore replies on this subject. I've had my poodle since I was nine years old and I'm very sensitive about the quality of care I give her. I will try to keep the topic on the quality of the page itself. If Hellahulla would like to continue this discussion elsewhere, suggest where. Thank you --Justin

The following 2 pictures are taken of my Cream Standard Poodle, Filagree My Fair Lady CD. You are welcome to use these pictures on the site if needed.

  • 11 month old Standard Poodle
    11 month old Standard Poodle
  • 2 year old Standard Poodle
    2 year old Standard Poodle

JenniePoo1868.102.13.86 21:03, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Layout experiment

I tried the WP-recommended alternating-side layout for non-text elements. Either let me know what you think or revert. Maybe we should make the pictures a bit bigger, too. DCDuring 22:33, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

New Poodle Picture/Corded Poodle

I removed the picture which was placed in the article recently. I don't have a problem with the picture, per se, but it was located in the section about corded poodles, giving the false impression that the dog in the photograph was a corded poodle. It wasn't, and I think readers would find it confusing. Personally, I think we have too many pictures for the article already anyway -- though a picture of a corded dog would be good.The Dogfather 17:41, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

I'd like very much to see a photo of a corded poodle in the Corded Poodle section. I clicked on an old link to Corded Poodle which had once been a separate artcle I guess and was hoping to see a photo. Corded coats are coming ack into style for a variety of working dogs. If you can find one, I'd love to see it included. Sadly, I am no good at uploading Pix or I would have uploaded one of my White GSD running full speed (to an appropriate article on GSD or white sheps.)Lisapollison 10:02, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

What Happened to the cute poodle in a tutu? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Begma (talk • contribs) 22:38, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Bot report : Found duplicate references !

In the last revision I edited, I found duplicate named references, i.e. references sharing the same name, but not having the same content. Please check them, as I am not able to fix them automatically :)

  • "AKC" :
    • http://www.akc.org/breeds/poodle/history.cfm AKC: Poodle history. Retrieved March 22, 2008
    • http://www.akc.org/breeds/poodle/index.cfm American Kennel Club: Poodle Breed Standard. Retrieved May 12, 2007

DumZiBoT (talk) 07:56, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Rearrange

The introductory section was getting very long, so elements from it are now in their topic sections (nothing was removed.)--Hafwyn (talk) 20:17, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:Travelswithcharley2.jpg

The image Image:Travelswithcharley2.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check

  • That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
  • That this article is linked to from the image description page.

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --17:23, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

capitalisation

I notice that the word 'poodle' is sometimes capitlised and sometimes not throughout the article - what's the consensus here before I clean it up - capital P or not? Adambrowne666 07:08, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Should not be capitalized. MollyBloom 05:32, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Fixed Adambrowne666 07:59, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Seems to have reverted to capitalised in some places, so I've gone and lowercased it all again. Except that ISTR some consensus (bizarre in my opinion) that common names of species and breeds used as technical terms should be capitalised. So "Standard Poodle" etc. remain. Hairy Dude 22:17, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
Why would that be? No other group or species of animals is ever capitalized. -Oreo Priest talk 15:57, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Another photo

I just saw this picture on a talk page. It's great - wouldn't it fit somewhere on this page?

File:Bomba poodlerunning.jpg

--79.64.225.179 (talk) 07:52, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

"Canis Familiaris Aquatius"

I've removed the mention of this alleged name; if it were known as that in Germany, one would think the German article would have some mention of that. I can't find any serious reference works using it. --jpgordon::==( o ) 21:38, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Looks good to me. "Canis familiaris aquatius" sounds like it's supposed to be a specific name for the breed, which is of course nonsensical -- the poodle is by no means a separate species from the domestic dog. Zetawoof(ζ) 06:49, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

How can a median be a range?

"Standard Poodles in UK, Denmark and USA/Canada surveys had a median lifespan of 11.5 to 12 years" •Jim62sch•dissera! 16:23, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

if the data intput is in range format, this seems pretty obvious. Skiendog (talk) 19:26, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

rescuing drowning people

wasn't the poodle bred to rescue drowning people?

Not that I've ever heard or read. Can you cite some sources that suggest that? Even this site with extensive poodle history says nothing about it. Elf | Talk 22:58, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps they are thinking of the Poodle's cousin, the Portuguese Water Dog. But even that capable breed wasn't specifically trained to rescue people.The Dogfather 15:28, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
No, most poodles aren't very good swimmers. New foundland dogs do save a bit a people from drowning though. I have three newfoundland dogs and 1 poodle And one time my poodle fell into the pool and tried to swim but started sinking...eventually we saved him though. -Zett_Fan-
But poodles were bred from a water dog. Mokoniki (talk) 18:10, 29 May 2009 (UTC)Mokoniki
I know for a fact that poodles don't necessarily like to swim. Out of my two poodles, only one swims passably well, and even then she hates it. Both love to play in shallow water, though. --142.213.254.2 (talk) 19:45, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Article Missing

Someone has removed the bulk of the article leaving only a discussion of crossbreeds, allergies and famous poodles. This needs to be fixed quickly by some responsible editor who is more familiar with reverting articles than I am. Halfelven (talk) 17:53, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Hair? Fur?

In the "appearance" section, pains are taken to point out that poodles have "hair," not "fur." What is the difference between hair and fur? And later, in the "Coat" section, poodles are said to have "dense curly fur." Which is it? Joyous! | Talk 03:04, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I think this has occurred because fur has come to be thought of as being multi-layered, and shed; and hair is thought of as being single-layered, and not shed. Technically, there is no reason why the term fur cannot be applied though.The Dogfather (talk) 14:39, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
It says in the Wikipedia article for Fur that "Fur is a body hair of any non-human mammal..." I'd guess it's okay to have either. 74.5.110.177 (talk) 12:07, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
poodles do not have fur. poodles have hair. Skiendog (talk) 19:33, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

I thought Poodles had wool, like sheep? That's why they were't allergenic for my mom. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 156.34.161.97 (talk) 21:02, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

Poodle Weight

Just thought I would point out to somebody who knows what they are doing that there isn't a single mention of a Poodle's weight in this entire article. I understand that this may be more difficult to provide due to the variety of sizes Poodle's come in, but surely there should be a rough estimate for the different sizes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.236.241.198 (talk) 20:46, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

I'll try to update it tonight. — anndelion ※ 21:24, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Famous poodles

Perhaps this list is slightly overinflated? Like, 98% so? "Famous" should be the keyword here; I mean, "Vicky, pet of Richard and Pat Nixon"? A pet of a famous person is not a famous pet. --jpgordon::==( o ) 17:15, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Intelligence

The Wikipedia entry on Dog Intelligence does not provide a ranking, though some studies have done so. This one cites the research by Stanley Coren based on ability to learn new commands. http://knol.google.com/k/garry-jenkins/canine-intelligence/19tjln1ywaolr/6# It ranks the top three (in order) as Border Collies, Poodles, and German Shepherds.

This site addresses ease of training, ranking Border Collies, Poodles, and Golden Retrievers. http://www.sheppardsoftware.com/content/animals/animals/breeds/dogtopics/dog_intelligence.htm

I have not inserted the foregoing material in the main article because I'm uncertain whether there's enough consensus for an encylopedic outlet like Wikipedia. Something to consider, tho.

B Tillman February 2009

the ranking is based on 110 dogs in one study, im not sure its scientific at all. there are 335 breeds in the fci, so its a 1/3 sampling and should be reworded in the article to reflect this bias.178.25.213.210 (talk) 03:00, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Just thought I would point out to somebody who knows what they are doing that there isn't a single mention of a Poodle's weight in this entire article. I understand that this may be more difficult to provide due to the variety of sizes Poodle's come in, but surely there should be a rough estimate for the different sizes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.236.241.198 (talk) 20:46, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Intelligence (Dubious)

The study about ranking of dog breeds in terms of intelligence is not well established and I'm afraid did not gain enough consensus among specialists. The citation added is not strongly backed. I guess, the mention of intelligence rank on lead is improper; rather some mention about intelligence shall be described elsewhere in article. In Lead instead of saying 2nd most intelligent, we can tell very intelligent among dog breeds. » nafSadh did say 05:58, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. Coren's study is not about intelligence, moreover intelligence is not something that can be ranked - there are many different types of intelligence in dogs, as in people. Wolves are indisputably intelligent, and would be at the bottom of Coren's list. For an example, a sheepdog bred to guard it's flock without human intervention clearly has a form of independant decision making, whereas a herding dog such as a Border Collie needs to be completely under the control of its handler at all times. Finally, this is an awful byline, which is supposed to be a summary of the article - there should be a mention of their intelligence in the article. I have changed it as per Nafsadh's suggestion. gmipTalk 07:32, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

HEPA filters and vacuums

I changed the mention of ONLY a HEPA vacuum cleaner to what the Mayo Clinic site ACTUALLY says AND corrected the reference to the proper page.Wzrd1 (talk) 03:15, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Photos/major revisions

This article was protected on 15 March 2013 after a series of edits/reverts. However, a few days later the protection was removed and it appears a number of edits were made that changed the lead, removed a number of correctly referenced items and re-introduced a number of photographs. I raised the matter on the Dog Project talk page to try to get some further input; as there was no response after three weeks, I have boldly reverted back to the version as at 15 March when the article was protected. Please discuss before making further extensive alterations. Thanks. SagaciousPhil - Chat 11:06, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

The article was again reverted on 29 April, which I reverted then I left a message on the IP's talk page asking for it to be discussed before further alterations were made. On 1 May the IP has again reverted to a previous version without any discussion/comment; it appears to be the same version as that arrived at by Met20a on 20 March. As well as removing referenced items, the latest revision also removed a couple of pictures which had been added to the gallery by a different editor who has now reverted the IPs alteration. SagaciousPhil - Chat 09:35, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

RfC: Should referenced items be removed and some photos be included in the gallery section?

  • The article keeps being reverted to an older version, which removes items that are referenced (for instance, details of Crufts winners and use of Poodles in WWII) and moves pics from the gallery area into the text. Please see Photos/major revisions above. SagaciousPhil - Chat 10:25, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
the lede picture for example; the subject looks like a wolf in donkey's clothing -Here he is again, with the coat grown out...
No - there are formatting and language errors in the reverted-to bit. I've semiprotected it so that all accounts can idenitify and state their opinion rather than IP-hop. It seems to have been a long term issue Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:38, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
  • There doesn't seem to be an issue here that can be resolved via RfC. What exactly is the contention? siafu (talk) 15:57, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Seems no need for an RfC here, but I'd lose the gallery altogether, it's discouraged in WP:MOS and it looks like a scrapbook. Everything else becomes a question of formatting and sourcing. Just bring the article up to GA quality and get the green plus, that should resolve everything else. Montanabw(talk) 22:08, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Agree about the irrelevance of the RFC, and about forgetting about arguments and concentrating on article purpose, structure and format. For a start, the point is to inform and to give a true-to-life impression of the animals to readers who want to know about them. Having had a couple of (standard) poodles myself, I should not think that to be an unrewarding labour. However, look at the lede picture for example; that might be a cute, happy photo and have attractions as a work of art, but the subject looks like a wolf in donkey's clothing; looking at that representation I could not even swear to the dog's breed. For heaven's sake, put a picture that says: this is what a poodle looks like, and what no other breed looks like, not "Look at how lively and athletic my dog is!". As for the gallery, I think that a gallery can be very useful, never mind the MOS, but then it MUST be structured to show something informative and to the point. I disagree with Montanabw; this one doesn't look like a scrapbook at all; a worthwhile scrapbook has themes and logic -- this one looks like a random deal from a shuffled pile of pictures. Therefore it could be altogether reasonable to move photos from the gallery to the text, but then every picture that goes into the text must be put where it specifically and usefully illustrates some point in the text. Otherwise leave it out completely. A gallery is best at displaying a series of related pictures illustrating a point or concept that a single picture could not. Sorry if that was not the desired response to the RFC, but this article really needs some folks to go back to the drawing board and cooperate on doing it properly. JonRichfield (talk) 14:42, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Hopefully they are illustrating a point now, some of the pictures we can do without. Hafspajen (talk) 18:21, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
Most decidedly a move in the right direction! JonRichfield (talk) 12:02, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
Thanks! Is there anything else we need to do? Hafspajen (talk) 12:13, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
I am afraid I am under some pressure at the moment, but in memory of some much-loved dogs I'll do my best to look in later! JonRichfield (talk) 12:26, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
OK. Hafspajen (talk) 12:46, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Origin?

My books ay that the poodle is of French origin. The German wiki states Ursprung (origin) :Frankreich (France) http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pudel. Is this disputed? Hafspajen (talk) 15:58, 21 May 2013 (UTC)


First photo

What a horrible picture. Where did that great one of the brown Standard go? I used to log in just to see it - it always made me smile.Three minutes of magic (talk) 22:24, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Here is Maisy Daisy especially for you!!!

Here is Maisy Daisy especially for you Hafspajen (talk) 12:51, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

History

There's a misplaced apostrophe in the last sentence of the first paragraph, where it refers to poodles as "it's [sic] (France's) national breed." Could someone with edit privileges correct this? I know it's a minor error but the only real edits I make on Wikipedia are to correct grammatical and spelling issues. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 180.131.230.67 (talk) 16:42, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

Done - thanks! SagaciousPhil - Chat 16:50, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

temperament

Might not this need to be a little more informant? I mean, it says they're proud, intelligent, alert, and active. but that doesn't really sum it all up, so how do you put what they act like?

Well--someone needs to figure it out and write it. Preferably someone who knows a lot about a lot of poodles or who has good reference books that they can cite in a "References" section or here on the talk page. Elf | Talk 20:55, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
Yes, I think this does need some expansion. I am a poodle lover, and will try to find more information to add here. We have two toy poodles. They are extremely intelligent dogs, and very loyal. Lousy watchdogs.  ;-) Our toy poodle slept through a burglary of our house. Yet, she will readily greet all guests with much noise. She was fired as chief of security.MollyBloom 05:31, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
"...with much noise." That's what brought me to this page. Some breeds, I'm given to understand, are bred to bark a great deal, while others are bred to be quieter. In particular, I read somewhere (sorry, no reference handy) that it is a characteristic that is bred into some hunting breeds to make them more effective. Examples of hunting dogs that are given to frequent barking include bay dogs, many terriers, some scent hounds, and dachshunds. According to the article on hunting dogs, poodles, as water dogs, are a subclass of retrievers; in my experience, retrievers tend to bark much less frequently than the above listed breeds. On the other hand, the temperament section of this article mentions that the poodle's hunting drive is "...more readily observable than in most other breeds." What I want to know is why it is that the miniature poodles in particular (much more than toys, mediums, or standards) are so given to incessant barking at the slightest provocation? --96.251.9.196 (talk) 03:05, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
I tend to agree with those that the "yapping" behavior is a result of overbreeding during those decades when the Poodle was one of the most popular breeds.The Dogfather (talk) 16:20, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

"...According to some owners, Poodles have strong instinctual behaviors and males will mark in the house unless they are trained not to do so." this statement is incorrect or in the least not specific to Poodles. The source referenced is a very small amateurish website. Please remove this sentence unless you have a more credible source. I would suggest you stay with the breed standard of which ever country you choose or a registered breeders website, otherwise this just becomes a discussion of how my pet poodle is different to yours. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.5.117.243 (talk) 03:58, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Dead link

There are a lot of dead web links on this page. These include: poodle 404 Not Found Miniature [aust.com] 404 Not Found http://www.ankc.aust.com/poodtoy.html [aust.com] 404 Not Found http://www.ankc.aust.com/poodstan.html [aust.com] 400 Bad Request http://mail.ukcdogs.com/UKCweb.nsf/80de88211ee3f2dc8525703f004ccb1e/f0189c3fb7686a9185257044005159dd?OpenDocumentMiniature [ukcdogs.com] 401 Unauthorized http://mail.ukcdogs.com/UKCweb.nsf/80de88211ee3f2dc8525703f004ccb1e/77cc12b9230c0541852570490044c05a?OpenDocument [ukcdogs.com] HTTP login 401 Unauthorized http://mail.ukcdogs.com/UKCweb.nsf/80de88211ee3f2dc8525703f004ccb1e/77cc12b9230c0541852570490044c05a?OpenDocument [ukcdogs.com] HTTP login 404 Not Found The Corded Poodle [caninechronicle.com] 404 Not Found Pictures of Teddy [savage-productions.com] --79.68.129.13 (talk) 19:40, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Link [23] is also dead (dog-info.org) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 35.9.61.232 (talk) 21:49, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

Changes

Furter changes please discuss. One can't move a gallery somewhere else where it does't fit and it crushes with text. Though i keeps a lot of your changes. Hafspajen (talk) 13:34, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

The appearance section has no source and isn't just about appearance. It's not clear to me if this is one country's standards or universal, and in any case needs sourcing. Dougweller (talk) 15:16, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
Ok, User:Hafspajen, it was added in December 2011 with this edit.[1] - more or less all of that is copyvio from the AKC page at [2] and needs to be removed. Dougweller (talk) 15:29, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

WEll, too bad. But I suggest we rewrite (reword) it, because that is not bad and what are we going to put there instead? Hafspajen (talk) 15:38, 3 May 2014 (UTC) Sagaciousphil...? Hafspajen (talk) 15:40, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Any AKC standard can be used, for appearance, by the way, Hafspajen (talk) 15:44, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

At a fairly brief glance, it looks as if a chunk of the 'Colours' section is copied from here as well? SagaciousPhil - Chat 17:08, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
Whoops, just realised that was in the same edit Doug mentions above (I should have scrolled further down my screen). SagaciousPhil - Chat 17:13, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

OK; who starts rewording? If I am going to do that you may need to do it anyway... Hafspajen (talk) 17:43, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

It does look copied. So I think the first step is to delete those parts that were copied. I don't think rewording works when it comes to copyrights. Need to start from scratch. Stephanwehner (talk) 18:04, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

Appearance section

The [appearance section https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poodle#Appearance] reads

  • To ensure the desirable squarely built appearance, the length of body measured from the breastbone to the point of the rump approximates the height from the highest point of the shoulders to the ground.
  • The eyes should be very dark, oval in shape, and have an alert and intelligent expression.
  • And two more "should" sentences about the ears and the coat

The first one of these sentences talks not directly about the appearance but about how squarely built appearance is ensured. The 3 following talk about how eyes, ears, and coat should be.

So most of this section does not describe the appearance of poodles, but describes expectations about the appearance, as in what makes a good poodle.

Clearly, a value judgement is made, without identifying whose judgements those are, and so it is very puzzling to read this in an encyclopedia! It is not knowledge, it is opinion.

Therefore, I had moved these sentences into a new section "desirable appearance" (the word desirable taken from "desirable squarely built appearance" in the first quoted sentence above).

However, this was undone with https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Poodle&diff=606897809&oldid=606897289 and a comment "no need for desirable apperance, that is automatically included in it, as per other dog articles"

I don't think there is much "automatic" here, I think there is value in separating these two. The way it is now, appearance proper is not actually covered, since most of the Appearance section talks about how the appearance "should" be or what a desirable appearance is.

On the other hand, there must be a way of describing poodles as they are as opposed to how they should be. (That is what biologists do)

I also feel it is interesting to have a section "desirable appearance" since it documents what people look for in an ideal Poodle. I think that can be presented in a encyclopedic way, meaning it can be presented as knowledge.

Stephanwehner (talk) 03:11, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

Currently it is a copyvio issue. I understand what you mean. But we usually do not use "desirable appearance" in dog articles, just appearance. If describing poodles as they are as opposed to how they should be we say fault. This and that is a fault. Hafspajen (talk) 03:22, 4 May 2014 (UTC)
How is it a "copyvio issue"? I totally lost you there.
What you say about describing poodles sounds fitting for a dog wiki, but not an encyclopedia.
However, you bring up another aspect that sounds good to cover in another new section, namely "Common faults."

Stephanwehner (talk) 06:17, 4 May 2014 (UTC)


Copyvio, see section above. We had this general way of using only Appearance, basically in all dog articles. If you want to change that, you may want to adress this at the Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dogs/Dog breeds task force, because it will be a big change, and it will need adjusting like hundreds of articles. Common faults I think is a quite managable section, even if there are way to many sections in this article due to all sizes. You could try also mentioning in the Appearance section too: Common faults are... this and that, as it is done in most dog articles. Hafspajen (talk) 13:49, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

I've done some indenting, etc, what do you think? Dougweller (talk) 17:07, 4 May 2014 (UTC)
Great. Hafspajen (talk) 17:10, 4 May 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for the dog breeds task force pointer. Will check / bring it up there. Stephanwehner (talk) 18:08, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

OK. Hafspajen (talk) 19:16, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

Life Expectancy of Standard Poodles

I found the age range of 11.5 to 12 years for standards to be somewhat limited. Our standard poodle is almost 16 years old and still active. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.246.174.101 (talk) 20:20, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 April 2015

Classification and standards FCI Group 9 Section 2

  1. 172 Standard, miniature, toy

should be changed to

Classification and standards FCI Group 9 Section 2

  1. 172 Standard, medium, miniature, toy

Even the pdf given beside this text denotes these four classifications. Cactus james (talk) 16:32, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 July 2015

Please change the link on the source 44 is a dead link. Let me know if you know any help to get any useful sources!

Rebecarevimedia89 (talk) 15:42, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

 Done - I've just cut it, since it looks like a spam reference inserted into the middle of an otherwise sourced sentence. --McGeddon (talk) 17:36, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

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poodle sizes

Standard Poodle, Miniature Poodle, Toy Poodle, Tiny Toy Poodle, Unrecognized but fashionable with the women: Teacup poodles. It would be good to discuss the Size Specifications and broadness of the breed and it would support their versatility as a breed.

Also I would say that taking pictures of poodles to accurately portray their beauty is very hard- It seems their tear stains change the look and shape of their faces.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Jbuza (talk • contribs) 16:11, 16 September 2006 PDT

The phrase "teacup poodle" is extremely common, and the article dismisses the term without explanation, simply because pro dog-breeders don't use it. Since it is nevertheless an established part of the English language, it is very slack to not explain the term. I assume it means an extremely small breed of "toy poodle". This article is not very good. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.147.124.196 (talk) 19:35, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Poodle/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Overall a good article. The temperament section needs expansion. Most parts need additional references, but there is a good amount of references currently. --Pharaoh Hound (talk) (The Game) 12:34, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Last edited at 12:34, 2 October 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 03:14, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

Origin

I have been reading many articles about the origins of the poodle. All sources that I read say that the breed has been standardised from the old French barbet dog, and possibly crossed with the Hungarian water dog. Some sources say that the dog comes originally from Northern Africa and has been brought to Europe with the Arabs during the moorish occupation of Spain. Furthermore, normally the origin of the dog is solely based on the FCI (international dog federation) that attributes the country of origin. Even in the German article the standart is in France. If we really want to argue about the real country of origin of each breed, we could go to the early stage of domestication since a breed of dog is just the sum of many breed crossings. Could someone bring others sources stating that the dog comes from Germany? The ref in the article solely refers to a page of an encyclopaedia that is not available to everybody. --Gabriel HM (talk) 19:08, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

Miniature poodle section

Nothing in the current paragraph is supported by the given sources. I've been unable to find any sources supporting the notion that a miniature poodle is anything other than a size variant of the standard poodle. I propose that the sections on standard/miniature been merged into a single section, with one paragraph discussing size variants. OhNoitsJamie Talk 15:27, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

I wouldn't raise any objections to merging. The AKC state: "The denominations Standard, Miniature, and Toy are used to describe size only. All the Poodles are one breed, governed by the same standard." The FCI include all the size variants as one breed standard too.
By the way, I see that part of the wording of the Miniature Poodle section seems to have been copied from the AKC History section, which reads "All of the Poodle's ancestors were acknowledged to be good swimmers, although one member of the family, the truffle dog (it may have been of Toy or Miniature size), it is said, never went near the water. Truffle hunting was widely practiced in England, and later in Spain and Germany, where the edible fungus has always been considered a delicacy. For scenting and digging up the fungus, the smaller dogs were favored, since they did less damage to the truffles with their feet than the larger kinds"? SagaciousPhil - Chat 17:10, 9 August 2016 (UTC)
Normally all poodles are supposed to be the same dog breed with just a difference in size. So there is no difference between the toy, cup, standard, etc... I don't see any issue to merge all sections into a single one. We just need to make clear for the common reader that the differences in size between the poodles are a major issue for both the breeders and the customers since the most demanded poodles are among the small sizes.--Gabriel HM (talk) 18:28, 9 August 2016 (UTC)


(edit conflict)Miniature's do have slightly different health problems. I don't know if that's worth mentioning. It can be sourced. As for truffle hunting, an 1839 source[3], a website with some sources that might be traced/used[4]. I also think there are behavioral differences but can't find a source. Doug Weller talk 18:35, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

I took a shot at reworking the section on variants and reorganized some of the other material regarding breeding. It's surprisingly difficult to find solid sources on the some of the subtopics beyond the breed standard. OhNoitsJamie Talk 19:38, 9 August 2016 (UTC)
Sometimes Google books has fairly good content on various dog breeds, and the variations within. White Arabian Filly Neigh 22:33, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

National breed of France

I think this is wrong. Yes, the Britannica says that[5], as well as defining it as a German water retriever, but I don't think it's authoritative. What we need is something much more official. Or change it to "often regarded as". Doug Weller talk 16:07, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

Origin redux

I've done a bit of work to remove statements arguing a French origin, but in researching it I also see claims of Russian origin (and Denmark and Iberia) which I haven't mentioned. And clearly, despite that the lead said before today, most English sources deny a French origin. Doug Weller talk 13:58, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

Although User:Gabriel HM reverted me claiming that there was a consensus for months, no one replied to their claim that "All sources say that the dog comes originally from Northern Africa and has been brought to Europe with the Arabs" a statement that is demonstrably false. There was a Dr. Fitzinger who made that claim which a few sources repeat, some just saying it's a possibility, but many sources do not mention it. To claim that the origin has to be where the breed was standardised is not backed by sources. The Fédération Cynologique Internationale does not govern our articles and countries such as the US and the UK have their own breed standards, so to suggest that the FCI can standardise the breed is incorrect. THe sources section of the infobox should reflect the content of the article. Doug Weller talk 13:08, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
First of all, the one that reverted the first edit that reached a consensus for months is you, you even erased the reference. For the Arab stuff I have made a mistake, I wanted to say even SOME sources claim, to illustrate the fact that this is an ancient breed, and that trying to point exactly where it comes from is almost impossible. I stated this fact in your talk page, and it never appeared in any article, so it would be difficult to reply to something that was an anecdote to illustrate the discussion. I have tried to be concilient by changing the infobox by saying that the breed has been standardised in France wich is something that all sources agree on. Before bringing this discussion here, you could have contacted me in my talk page to discuss the issue. And for your assertion about the FCI, i would reply, that the only thing that governs wiki as you say are the facts and pertinents sources. And worldwide, if I have to choose between the FCI and regulated the canine standard in almost 100 countries, and the UK my choice would tend to the FCI --Gabriel HM (talk) 19:46, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
I have read my message in your talk page, because I was very surprise by your message here about the fact I I would have written that "All sources say that the dog comes originally from Northern Africa and has been brought to Europe with the Arabs". I have written on your talk page "Some experts actually believe that it is a breed from the Mediterranean basin brought to Europe with the Arab conquest of Spain". I am astonished by your manipulations of facts, and the way you are acting here. I assume you made a mistake, otherwise I will contact the arbitration Committee --Gabriel HM (talk) 19:55, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
@Gabriel HM: Have I really misread what you wrote at Talk:Poodle#Origin? I don't think so. As for the Arbitration Committee, we aren't a first port of call for disputes. I guess you could try WP:ANI if you really think I've done something nefarious and sanctionable. Im pretty sure your French standardisation was actually FCI and after the AKC, The Kennel Club, etc, and it certainly could not have been a worldwide standardisation and clearly isn't, just look at standards for tails as an example. Oh, has the FCI banned docking yet?Doug Weller talk 20:22, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
And where does that FCI source say standardised in France (I think that's the source you say I removed)? Doug Weller talk 20:31, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
i have rectified the sentence, since in all my previous and next posts I stated SOME sources. What "my French standardisation" means? If the real issue here is that fact that you don't want to own a French breed, you should have got a german sherperd 😜--Gabriel HM (talk) 20:35, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
@Gabriel HM: please answer the question, don't make silly comments. Where does the source say French standardisation? And who cares? You can't just dismiss American, Canadan, Australian, British,etc standards so easily. Again, what sources say this is somehow a French breed as opposed to a breed found in France. Doug Weller talk 20:55, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
It was not so silly since you even want to erase the fact that it is the French national breed. Eventhough it is specified in sources that you affectionate like Britannica and the AKC for example. It seems that you select the sources that are not going in your way.. and for the rest I thought the the FCI that is the largest canine worlwilde association with almost -00 counties was enough especially since France and Germany which are supposed to host the breed origin are under their supervision. But I think I have spent too much time for an article about the poodle, especially that what is specified here won't change the reality of the facts. But once again, I have the impression that it is a real personal issue for you that this breed could be French... Good luck ..--Gabriel HM (talk) 21:19, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
@Gabriel HM:It was silly. And I don't want to "erase the fact", I'm saying that the fact hasn't been established. I don't particularly like the Britannica as a source as it's a tertiary source and we try to avoid them. I can find sources saying "regarded as" the French national breed, but no official French source saying that it is. Can you find one? Do you really think we don't need one? I don't even know what you mean "that this breed could be French". What would make it that? It's not a personal issue at all. It's a matter of making the article align with Wikipedia guidelines and polices. And I repeat, w"Where does the source say French standardisation?" If you can't answer it, say so, don't just avoid the question. The article should be based on reliable sources, nationality shouldn't matter. And I could give a flying fig where my poodle's eversomany great great ancestors came from or who standardised the breed first (although I still don't see sources saying definitively who did although I do see sources saying the UK kennel club recognised the poodle when it was founded, which was before the French SCC. But I'll stress again, we should follow what the sources say, not what anyone thinks is a more important source. If they conflict, we can show that. Doug Weller talk 21:39, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 March 2017

T he article states "Due to the breed's popularity in France, it became established as its national breed.". This implies that it is the national breed of France. This is incorrect. It should read " Due to the breed's popularity in France, it became established as a national breed.". Meaning that the Poodle breed was recognized as a French breed. Please review the FCI (Federation Cynologique Internationale for dogs worldwide) website (http://www.fci.be/en/nomenclature/POODLE-172.html) The Poodle is not THE nation breed of France, and I do not know is there is such National breed in France! Change from " Due to the breed's popularity in France, it became established as ITS national breed.". to "Due to the breed's popularity in France, it became established as a national breed." 2001:569:77A7:5000:7D6A:7383:C1E2:12FB (talk) 02:18, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

Done JTP (talk • contribs) 14:00, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
@User talk:NotTheFakeJTP, I do agree with you. There is not such thing as a national breed. It could be the case in others countries like the USA, where each state has its own national emblems like flower, animal, tree etc.. but in France, excepted few exceptions like the Lys flower for the monarchy, there is not such a thing. I believe as it is stated in the FCI, and that by the way supervises France and Germany, that the poodle is considered as a French breed, and not its national breed. (Hope it is not too confusing). As I said in previous posts, the country of origin of a breed is chosen where the standard is fixed. Otherwise, we could trace the origin of each breed up to the beginning of the domestication. And this is very pertinent in this case, since the poodle is probably one of the oldest dog breed found in the western world. The poodle can be traced back at least to the Greek period, with paintings and literature depicting the dog all around the Mediterranean basin. Some experts argue that is was brought up to Europe with the berbers during the moorish conquest of the Spanish peninsula. The ancestors of the present day poodle was probably used as a shepherd dog in Northern Africa. It is for this reason that many breeds closely related to the poodles are found in Southern Europe, like the Portuguese Water Dog, the Maltese, of the Italian truffle dog. Indeed some sorts of poodle was found in Germany, as it was present as well in Hungary ans Spain as a water retriever during the middle age. But what is a fact is that the breed was truly fixed and standardised in France during the 17th century. This principle is being used for all the major canine breeds, so I don't really understand why it should not be the case for the poodle. Even the german wiki agrees on the matter.--Gabriel HM (talk) 20:51, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
For dogs, "fixed" normally means standardised by a recognised breed club. What do you mean and what sources are you using? Doug Weller talk 06:35, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

Miniatures and Toys are NOT related to the original standard poodle.

According to the Institute of canine biology; DNA analysis indicates that Miniatures and Toy Poodles are NOT Standard Poodles made small.   The smaller sizes appear to be genetically unique - as different from Standard Poodles as they are to a completely unrelated breed such as the English Setter. They also have a different DLA profile. Lindaswatson (talk) 19:40, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

Here is the study. But I read elsewhere that it shows that "the genetic imprint of Standard Poodles can be seen by shared genomic alleles and DLA class I and II haplotypes." Doug Weller talk 19:53, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
Sorry, it's here. Doug Weller talk 20:07, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

Poodle club of Canada also states DNA analysis indicates that Miniatures and Toys are not Standard Poodles made small. The smaller sizes appear to be genetically unique. Lindaswatson (talk) 20:28, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

Acceptable colors

Brindle and phantom are acceptable for Multi-Colored Standard Poodles in UKC. 50.5.135.142 (talk) 00:11, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 May 2017

Under "temperament", the line "A Standard Poodle will be fine in a family with many children provided the environment is stable, orderly, and relaxed, with enough room for their to be a space where he or she can go retire and relax alone from time to time if needed." should have the word "there" instead of "their" for proper grammar. Thanks! Melodym1995 (talk) 04:03, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

Done Gulumeemee (talk) 05:54, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

Work and Sport - 1990s?

Under the work and Sport heading it says "The breed has been used for fowl hunting in US and Canada since the early 1990s, in and out of hunting tests." That seems incredibly recent for a well-established breed. I suspect it's a type. Otherwise I think that would benefit from a citation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:CDFC:2740:B5BF:FE0F:622:5525 (talk) 03:02, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

Hunting section

It's appallingly written and has little in the way of references. Is there anyone knowledgeable about hunting poodles who could clean it up? 2601:14B:4400:2C60:882A:BDAD:5A44:CCED (talk) 20:21, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

I concur. It's mostly opinionated nonsense directed toward clipping with vague references to hunting. I will try and fix it in the not too distant future. Hammersbach (talk) 18:13, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
After reviewing this section I have come to the conclusion that it is beyond repair and have decided to delete it. There is really only one sentence that applies to hunting and that can be included in the work and sports section. The rest is, as I have stated above, poorly written blabber about clipping, for example, "...can easily get the dog stuck in bramble like a fly in a spiderweb." Hammersbach (talk) 13:31, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

size

How big are poodles? I think Standard poodles are actually medium to large dogs, while toy poodles are closer to cat-sized (10-20 kilos?), but I don't know... What is the difference between toy and miniature poodles? --Andrew 02:59, May 3, 2004 (UTC)

I've added the sizes, I'm not sure if that really gives a good picture of the types though, maybe a photo would be more informative -- sannse (talk) 12:08, 3 May 2004 (UTC)


who said they are the size of gumballs? i think someone is messing with this article. they do not shed and are not fighting dogs... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.51.227.13 (talk) 03:20, 23 May 2008 (UTC) Minature Poodles become about 16 pounds. Standards are up to 20 pounds. Toy Poodles are up to 10. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:19B:700:A5A4:DED:6970:7966:7D3D (talk) 22:43, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

Sproodle

The most common usage of sproodle (at least in the U.K.) is a springer spaniel poodle cross, not a cocker spaniel poodle cross. Reilloc1966 (talk) 17:07, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

skiu6gu12 hig8h18

180.190.171.140 (talk) 09:15, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
 Not done: as you have not requested a change.
Please request your change in the form "Please replace XXX with YYY" or "Please add ZZZ between PPP and QQQ".
Please also cite reliable sources to back up your request, without which no information should be added to, or changed in, any article. - Arjayay (talk) 11:01, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

your constant cancellations on the poodle article

Hi User talk:Doug Weller, Your modifications on the poodle page are biased and start to violate some wiki principles on objectivity and neutrality. The info are corrects, documented and pertinents.The fact is that 97% of the worldwide dog kennel clubs state the poodle as a French breed, this is not to you to try to make the things different. For your information a breed is a human creation, and thus you can’t go back to the eve of time to try to make your point. Otherwise, why don’t we decide that the german shepherd or the rotweiller are French because they were heavily bred with the Beauceron? Furthermore most of the literature asserts that the poodle descends from the Barbet. Please go and check the German, Dutch, Belgium, Irish, Austrian, Swedish or Australian kennel club if you wish, this French breed was brought to Europe with the Arab conquest of Spain with the Barbet. Pictures of poodle like dogs have been found around the Mediterranean sea since the ancien times. Most of the »wolly dogs » are coming from the same region such as the bichon, the Portuguese and Spanish water dog. It seems that this obsession is flirting with some francophobia by denying the French origin of the poodle. If it is the case, please make you a treat and purchase you a Schnauzer. As a German contributor said on this subject :Grund: Ursprung laut FCI-Standard ist Frankreich. Bitte dem Link in der Box folgen für Bedeutung von „Ursprung“. Ursprung ist nicht unbedingt Herkunft der Rasse » This is ludicrous, even Germany itself officially declared in 1936 that the poddle was solely a French breed, want more do you want? A Papal bull ;)?? If you want to go to an arbitration committee on this subject, you are more than welcome, but I have to say that my ref are solids, documented numerous and pertinent. I hope that this discussion will make an end to this nonsense discussion.--Gabriel HM (talk) 07:29, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

@Gabriel HM: When you can, please participate to the above RFC; details can also be added in the discussion section. That RFC is a proper process at current time. ARBCOM is the last resort when all other means have been exhausted (see WP:DR). Thanks, —PaleoNeonate – 01:22, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

FCI

Here's what an international authority on dog shows says.

"page 53] - The FCI has saved the rest of the dog world from utter confusion by requesting that all its more than eighty member countries adhere to the same breed standards. The standards that the FCI uses are approved by each breed's country of origin, or in the case of breeds that hail from areas where no organised kennel club activity existed at the time the breed was established in the West (the Afghan Hound, the African Basenji, and the Japanese Chin, for instance), the standard is that used by that breed's country of development, usually England. This is a sound principle, at least in theory, but it does not always work. What if the country of origin is not ....[continues on page 59 as there are pages with photos on in between] ... capable of drawing up a sensible breed standard or keeps changing the standard for no apparent reason? What if the country of origin of some breeds is doubtful? The Poodle, for instance, is listed by the FCI as a French breed, but although France, Germany, Switzerland, and perhaps even Russia all had a hand in the creation of this breed, almost no one would deny that England must be considered the primary country of development, at least for the Miniature Poodle. Therefore an international Poodle judge must be thoroughly familiar with several different breed standards. The official FCI standards exist in four languages: French, German, Spanish, and English. In addition, each country will naturally translate the standard into its native tongue. This can create further problems, as very few capable translators are equally gifted in their knowledge of dog terms. Many of the subtle changes in priorities and emphases that develop in different countries may be the result of something as simple as a flawed translation of the original standard."Amazon page GBooks. Doug Weller talk 15:06, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

Clubs as history source

Although I read the whole talk page, I'm new to this article. My first impression is that it may rely too much on clubs as sources about history. I'm not done reading them yet, but I just digged up a few RSN discussions in relation to clubs. Here are potential threads to read:

—PaleoNeonate – 01:34, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

The bichon.org source [6] ends with "from the Revised Standard for the Bichon Frise". A Google search gave few results and I couldn't find what that source is exactly. —PaleoNeonate – 02:13, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
I did raise this issue in my RfC but not as part of my question. I'd like to see more discussion. Doug Weller talk 16:26, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
Are you aware of any sources that aren't clubs (I'm thinking academic papers on canine biology) that contradict the information provided by the clubs? Alternatively, social-science papers on the role of kennel clubs in controlling dog breeding and the definitions of dog breeds? Looking for other reliable sources that disagree will likely let us know more about the reliability of the clubs than speculations based on hunting down the sources that the clubs themselves operate by, as a lot of the knowledge published by breeding clubs is presumably the product of their experience working in the field as breeders and thus is hard to evaluate without comparing it against research performed by other groups. Rosguill (talk) 19:06, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
Concur, thanks for framing my concern. I agree it's never good when we allow our RS scope to be too narrow, as it can damage WP:NPOV - but if the clubs are the only ones keeping track it could get a bit thorny. Simonm223 (talk) 19:11, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
I was looking up some sources that could be useful on JSTOR; chapter 6 of The Dog: A Natural History seemed particularly promising but I've only just applied to access JSTOR with my wikipedia library card so I can't access it yet Rosguill (talk) 21:24, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
It's unclear why the random club sources were added in the first place. In particular, @PaleoNeonate:, the Bichon Frise Club source along with a few others you were questioning was added by the now indefinitely blocked user Gabriel HM (talk · contribs), who had this page under siege for a while recently. I've removed all his additions per WP:BANREVERT and just the general disruptive nature of the additions. The citations that were already present were from the various national kennel clubs and the FCI. The extra sources were pointless.
Edit: for what it's worth, I did a search on Encyclopedia Britannica, and it seems to share the same sentiments of the analysis of the club sources that this article carries. (https://www.britannica.com/animal/poodle) "Poodle, breed of dog thought to have originated in Germany but widely associated with France, where it is hugely popular." - R9tgokunks ⭕ 22:57, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
Yes I was aware that Bichon club was a new addition, although there were existing citations to clubs or associations. If their history appears to reflect that of other sources, that's great to know. Thanks, —PaleoNeonate – 00:20, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
Clubs might have other motivations besides historical accuracy. Anyway, regarding historical sources, I have read some texts (Outing, vol. 17; Luclere's The Complete Guide to Poodles) stating that poodles have been depicted in Roman bas relief. Some suggest that the breed came from Portugal and Spain. These two theories are also linked by the Moors' conquest of Iberia, which is said to have facilitated the breed's introduction from the Mediterranean to mainland Europe. A black poodle is also mentioned in the story of Faust. Darwin Naz (talk) 22:53, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

natl dog of france

Source for the "national dog of France" thing. Just Googling comes up with a LOT of pages to back up the claim: which I did, before including it here. --Suitov

Excuse me, but the page you link to does not say what you pretend it says. I read "France has now been officially recognized as the country of the Poodles origin though some authorities attribute Germany as the country of origin.". This does not mean that the poodle is France's national dog, it means that the Poodle, officially, originates from France. That's fairly different.

For the Poodle to be France's national dog, you'd need a statement to that effect from the French government or from something like the French canine federation. In fact, if you look in the French media, you'll see no such claim. David.Monniaux 13:33, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Well. Actually, the page says pretty clearly, not three sentences later:

"Originally bred as a retriever and flushers of birds the Poodle became quite popular among French aristocracy and was designated the national dog of France."

It doesn't give dates or any kind of official statement, but as I said, Googling for "French national dog" or "national dog of France" or similar will bring up a whole slew of different sources claiming the same thing. --Suitov 15:44, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)

French origins

While it is true that the French have adopted the Poodle as their own, many experts agree that France is NOT necessarily the country of origin. I don't know who "officially" declared that France was the country of origin (my guess is they're French), but no one besides the French believe this. The country of origin will probably never be known because the dog is such an ancient breed and spread throughout Europe long before France, as a nation, existed.

Having said that, clearly it was the French who were responsible for making the breed so popular. It was the French who bred miniature and toy varieties, and took them from being primarily hunting dogs, to show and companion dogs. If the French want to make the poodle their national dog, they have every right to do so. I just think it is more honest to list the country of origin as "unknown".--Wcrowe 17:31, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)

"I don't know who "officially" declared that France was the country of origin (my guess is they're French), but no one besides the French believe this."
Actually, no one inside France seems to believe it either. I've only seen this written in English-speaking text. David.Monniaux 17:25, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

On my recent edits

[Shrugging] I'd always thought they were German, so what do I know? I did just add a sentence on the old term 'French Poodle'; I though it belonged here for historical accuracy and interest, but if someone can think of a better place to put it, fine.

I removed the word 'standard' wrt the 'labradoodle' cross, because I believe that the originating (grrr....) L'doodle Club of Aust. uses more than one size poodle in their crosses.

Question: under CARE: shouldn't the word 'possessive' be linked to a dictionary rather than to an article?

I also wanted to indicate that these dogs are not necessarily better for people with allergies--it varies from dog to dog and person to person. Perhaps we need a separate article on 'oodles' and 'poos'...? Quill 21:22, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I think you're right to add the bit about "French Poodle". I like how the paragraph turned out. To be sure, the French developed the smaller versions of the breed. It's just that when I read through my dog encyclopedias, and other books on poodles, it becomes clear that no one really knows where the breed originated. My own theory is that a sort of proto poodle existed in Roman times in the Med. region. Some of these dogs moved North and East and became the Puli, and perhaps Poodle. Some were developed in Iberia and became the Portuguese Water Dog and eventually Irish Water Spaniel, etc. Clearly these breeds are all related.--Wcrowe 05:08, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

  • ...it becomes clear that no one really knows where the breed originated.
Ha! Welcome to the wonderful world of dog breed historians! Quill 06:14, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)
On the [[possessive]] question - I think it shouldn't be linked at all. We don't need to define common words, so a Wiktionary link isn't needed, and I can't see an article being particularly useful - So I've delinked the word. -- sannse (talk) 12:17, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Agreed.
A separate article for those multifarious crossbreeds may be justified, though apart from listing and linking, there doesn't seem much else to say about 'em.
Like how this article's progressing. The France issue has been well resolved. Just because it's the national dog (and darnit, lots of sources DO say so...) that's not to say there's any claim to have originated it. The Welsh didn't invent the dragon, either.  ;) --Suitov 14:10, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)
D'accord. If it were put to a vote among the general population, the national dog of the United States would probably be the Labrador Retriever. Never mind that Labrador is not in the U.S. <grin>Wcrowe 16:20, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Google for chien national de la France and you see nothing. I'll remove this meaningless statement. David.Monniaux 07:11, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I went to Yahoo France and just searched for chien national. There were hits for all sorts of other national dogs, but none referring to the Caniche, let alone France. I also found it interesting that two different sites listed two different dogs as the chien national d'Irlande: Kerry Blue Terrier and Irish Wolfhound. If the French have a national dog, they're sure keeping it a secret.The Dogfather 17:43, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The AKC breed site lists it as the national dog of France, and I'd like to think that those people know the history of their breed :-). I went to my definitive source, the Encycl Britannic (paper version) and it says that the breed is thought to have originated in Germany but became so popular in France that it became the national dog of that country. It doesn't say, any more than any of these sites say, when it became such or how or who declared it as such or whether it was only during the times of the aristocracy... Elf | Talk 19:51, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I hesitate to add this because I am indifferent as to whether the Poodle is the national dog of France or not, but, FWIW my 1960 edition of Encyclopaedia Britannica says: Although the poodle probably was originated by the Germans, it attained its greatest popularity in France and sometimes is called the "French poodle." No mention of it being the national dog. Somebody, somewhere has got to know the definitive answer.The Dogfather 03:15, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
You'd think, huh? But where oh where? The exact quote in my 1982 Britannica is "It grew so popular in France, however, that it became the national dog of that country." I find it odd that of all of the dozens of english pages I found that say essentially the same thing--that's all that any of them say. Does give the impression of being a one-liner that someone wrote authoritatively somewhere & everyone copied without having any more info. Apparently somewhere between 1960 and 1982 E.B. changed its story, so what info did THEY get? And where? It occurred to me also that perhaps the french wouldn't say "national dog of france" for the national dog of france--that it might be some other phrase that we're not thinking of ("official country dog of france" or "the voted-in animal of the country" or some other idiomatic expression); I tried various french searches, too, but got similar negatory results. Elf | Talk 06:43, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
It indeed looks to me like some meaningless sentence that people copy from one text to another, without thinking of its meaning. Who can declare something to be a national <foobar> of a country? Obviously, the government of that country. For instance, the French constitution defines the emblem of the French Republic as the tricolor flag, the national motto, and the national anthem. There is obviously no legal text in force that says that the national dog of France is the poodle!
Seriously, I'm a native Frenchman nobody I discussed this with in France knows about any kind of national dog. The only source we have for this "national dog" madness are some English texts that obviously have been copied from each other.
This is probably the case of some sentence who was said as some kind of hyperbole or funny imagery, but has been taken at face value. David.Monniaux 21:09, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Right, as in the National Bird of the United States and the National Flower of the United States--both of which indeed have very specific info about where the designation came from. Elf | Talk 23:41, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Not worth getting one's knickers in a twist over. If it's not documented, there's an end to it IMHO. Now, what, exactly, is a 'foo'? Quill 08:10, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Metasyntactic variable David.Monniaux 20:15, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Re. foobar: It, or just plain foo, are to programmers what widgits are to accountants.The Dogfather 06:42, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I'm beginning to see the light. Quill 09:06, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Deadbrain.com says that poodles are actually being banned in France. They wouldn't ban their national dog, would they? (tongue in cheek).The Dogfather 17:05, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

There's another meaning to it

Just wanted to let you know that poodle is also the community codename of the Zaurus SL-5600 model, a handheld computer running Linux.

Wow, that fact veritably defines the word "trivia". I was going to ask if anyone knew why the name "poodle" was chosen, but a quick web search revealed that all the Zaurus models appear to have dog breed names. Here are some other examples:
  • Collie -- 5500/5000d
  • Poodle -- 5600/b500
  • Corgi -- C700
  • Shepherd -- C750
  • Husky -- 760
The Dogfather 15:02, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Vandalism

It may be just me but it seems like there is a relatively decent amount of vandalism on this article. For my own curiosity, is there not a way that we could partially lock it to maybe limit some of the unregistered user attempts at adding their extra "facts" to the article? -- Dan9186(T • E • C) January 4, 2008 01:12 (UTC)

Origin is not disputed between France and Germany

When the standard was officially recognised, since France and Germany are both founding members of the FCI, in order to avoid any dispute, Germany officialy recognised the Poodle as being a French breed. According to the statutes of the FCI, all members states have to agree in order to claim an origin for the breed. If the origin was disputed between the two states, the country of birth of the breed could not have been recognised. So it can be mentioned that the origin is uncertain according to some sources, but it is misleading to write the term disputed in the infobox, since between the two countries, there is no dispute regarding the origin of the breed. --Gabriel HM (talk) 18:11, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Then fix it so that it shows it is uncertain, otherwise it's not just wrong but a violation of WP:NPOV. Doug Weller talk 18:44, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
I suggest you to be more moderate in your comments. What I did is neither a violation nor an inaccurate thing, since the two possible origins are specified. Furthermore I take the time to explain in the talk page the motive of the cancellation. Next time, feel free to read more carefully the rules before threatening another contributor. On the contrary it is your modification that leads to confusion and wrong interpretation. If you are not happy with the last modification, feel free to rectify the info box with a term that you believe is more appropriate.--Gabriel HM (talk) 20:02, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
I was interested in this and looked up various books on the subject and a lot of them seem to say German so I'm not sure it's definitely agreed that it's French. Here's an excerpt on the topic: "Poodles originated in .continental Europe, particularly France, Germany, and Russia. The similarity of type which exists between the brown Poodle and the Irish Water Spaniel has led many persons to believe.that these breeds have a common origin. It is probable that the Poodle originated in Germany and from there spread to other European countries, each country favoring a dog of particular color and type. The active, black Poodle is most commonly found in Russia and parts of Germany; the muscular, yellowish-brown dog is employed as a draft animal in Belgium; the whites and toys are well represented in France. Individuals of the breed are ordinarily classed as corded or curly, the two types being identical in all respects except coat." Loweredtone (talk) 10:29, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

Non-club sources

@Rosguill:, that book isn't available through my JSTOR account, which I'm abandoning, nor my Yale alumni account which is why I don't need the JSTOR account anymore (took me forever to realise I could get JSTOR through Yale". It's on GBooks though and all it says is "orginating in Germany and France".[7] Doug Weller talk 20:04, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

Well if it says "originating in Germany and France" that's presumably still something? It cuts against the French-only orthodoxy that started this discussion. Rosguilltalk 20:11, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
This throws the cat among the pigeons.[8] "The Germans, who can point with pride to the many Poodles which appear in the drawings and paintings of Albrecht Durer, argue that the Poodle is a German. Herr R. von Schmiedeberg wrote in 1881 that the first record the Germans have of the Pudel breed was written in 1555 by Conrad Gessner.

But Dr. Fitzinger, in his book entitled Der Hund und Seine Racen[9] would have us believe that he is a native of North Africa. Selincourt, in his Parfait Chasseur insists that he is a Piedmontese, while other writers make him stem from Denmark, Portugal and Russia. With all this conflicting testimony before us, how is it possible to be categorical on his origin? It seems to me that “you pays your money and you takes your choice.”

An amateur website called the Poodle History Project.[10] Doug Weller talk 16:13, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

German article

"The poodle ( French caniche ) is an FCI- recognized breed ( FCI Group 9, Section 2, Standard No. 172 ). Poodles are lively and have a woolly, curly hair. They are named differently based on their size: large poodle (also king poodle), small poodle (also middle poodle), toy poodle and toy poodle. The FCI has assigned the responsibility for the breed standard and the development of the breed France. Other breed associations assume in their breed descriptions that the breed originated in Germany. Also in the Encyclopædia Britannica and the Columbia Encyclopedia this statement can be found on the origin of the breed." Columbia encyclopedia at [11]. Doug Weller talk 16:16, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

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