Talk:Petar Preradović

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There was no croatia state at that time, it was Austro-Hungary, so Patar Preradivic can not be croation, he is srb.

There was also no Serbia in that time, so he can′t be a Serb. Of course chetniks will say ″he was a Serb″. --46.188.222.241 (talk) 14:04, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

OR

Avala, stating what exactly are OR claims or facts that need additional verification would be helpful. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 21:09, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Source

Can you give me a source where it states that he's from a Serb orthodox family. I have been reading a book that is called Famous Croats of XIX. century and in the article about Preradović I haven't found any sentence that says that he's an Orthodox Serb. The writer of that book is also from the XIX. century so maybe he knows best. If I get some time I will rewrite this article.The Editor14 (talk) 21:35, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

You are free to remove controversial unreferencd content, and rewrite the disputable parts with properly referenced material. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 13:04, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

His parents weren't Serb orthodox just his mother Pelagija. But since his Croat (Catholic) father died in his childhood he was probably raised in Serb Orthodox religion and then he converted to Catholicism in his military academy.

This article is totally false especially that source, where only in a sentence is mentioned his Serbian ethnicity, that book doesn't deal at all with who he was or his life it's just a stupid sentence which was probably not ever researched.Crabath (talk) 13:37, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, esp. considering the fact that he took part in Illyrian movement and wrote Croatian patriotic songs, having relearned his mother tongue which he had forgotten. He is equally "ethnically" Croat as Serb, more Croat since father's side is usually taken as an argument on ethnicity. >90% books.google.com sources quote him as "Croatian poet"; the dude who added the ref just pasted a first result for a "Preradovic Serb" query. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 14:58, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Thx mate I'm glad that we agree on this. Soon (when my school work is over) I'll take my book and translate the section about Preradović. It has some 3 pages so this article will get much bigger.Crabath (talk) 09:59, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Croat catholic father ?

Mr. Stambuk, where did you find this fact? Please share your source with wikipedia community. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.91.1.44 (talk) 14:42, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Serb Orthodox father and Serb Orthodox mother, Stambuk

You have invented that Preradovic had Croat father. Find reference.

Preradović was born in the village of Grabrovnica, which was part of the Austrian Military Frontier, to a Croat father (Ivan), or to a Serb Orthodox father (Jovan/Ivan) ( Detailed history and origine of family Preradović from Gornja Krajina (Grubišno Polje etc). as well as their relation to the russian branch (general Nikolay Depreradovich etc), may be seen in the book published in Zagreb, Croatia in 1903, Znameniti Srbi XIX veka, year 2, 2, editor Andra Gavrilović, Zagreb 1903, p. 13. Also, book published in Belgrade in 1888, Milan Đ. Milićević, Pomenik znamenitih ljudi u srpskog naroda novijeg doba, p. 572. For the list of Preradovićs (Serbs) murderd in Jasenovac concentration camp of Independent State of Croatia (NDH) during World War II, including Preradovićs from Grubišno Polje, where father of Petar Preradović was born see (offical in Croatia) Jasenovac Memorial site list of victims, where one could see a few Jovan Preradović, as was the name of Petar Preradović`s fater (http://www.jusp-jasenovac.hr Spomen Područje Jasenovac), or names of 100 Preradovićs on the list of victims on the list of victims of Jasenovac Research Institue, New York, - (https://cp13.heritagewebdesign.com/~lituchy/victim_search.php?field=&searchtype=contains)

Your references are some alleged books from 1903 and 1888, completely uncheckable, PoVish (prob. ridden with contemporary Serbian nationalist propaganda, as most such books from that era are) and thus unverifiable. Preradović himself was closest to be self-declared as Yugoslav as one can imagine (prominent Illyrian movement figure, pan-Slavic unity, blah, blah...try reading some of his works). Could you find some book published in the late 1990s and after (preferably not the type of ones that also classify e.g. Ivan Gundulić as "najveći Srbin") that support his Serbdom from the father's line please?

Your Jasenovac links are also worthless, as they do not indicate relationship with this person and any of which you claim to be his "father". In case you haven't noticed, this Petar Preradović died in 1872, some 70 years before Jasenovac was built. Or is this some pathetic attempt to demonise Croats by mentioning completely irrelevant topic of Jasenovac? ^_ ^ --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 08:55, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Invention of a Croat father Preradovic from Grubisno polje

Mr Stambuk, you understand very well what are we talking about. First let`s talk about your references - Croat father, where did you find that. You have no sources for that claim, secondly where did you find his mother name? All those facts are in the books I have mentiond. You have no sources for your claims. For the first time in the history someone claims that Preradovic`s father was a Croat. Something like that needs a reliable proof. We both know that someone had lied to you, or let`s put it straight you have invented that. 1. The references are not alleged books,you could find them in library in Zagreb. There are fototype edition in 1990s. One of them was published in Zagreb in 1903. They were published at time when children of Preradovic were alive. 2. Secondly you and I, we know that in Grubisno polje Preradovics are Orthodox Serbs. Since it is your idea that Preradovics father was a Croat, you should prove that. In 1888 and 1903 Ilyirian, or yougoslave movement was still alive, respectable people knew each other, and they were not lying each other. Maybe, you should read some of Preradovics songs, for example Hrvat ili Srbin, were he response on accusations that he has forgotten his serbian origin, Kosovo polje etc. 3. We are not discussing wether he was yugoslav, or only Croat poet, or Serbian too, or was he Croat general, (since, there were no Croat generals, or sergants, or soldiers at that time, they were all loyal austrian, or austro-hungarian soldiers), we are disscussing your idea that his father who was born in Grubisno polje was Croat ? Concernig Jasenovac, it is at least interesting fact that there is a significant number of Preradovics muredered in Jasenovac, olny because they were serb orthodox Preradovic, and that there are Preradovics among them from Grubisno polje. Now, if you have no proofs for your unique in the history claim that Preradovics father was a Croat, and if someone has invented that, how would you call attempt of that kind? One, at least, knowing these facts, should be more careful. Much more carful than you are is Croatian Wikipedia, and croatian professors who claim that he was Croat poet, but no one has claimed that his father was a Croat. Unfortenately, it only goes in line with some of the worst pages of Croatian history (1/3, you know what I mean). So, until you find some reliable sources for your claim that his fater was Croat, (since we are talking of the revision of history), you are demonising yourself. There are no good sources for you. Dear Mr. Stambuk, you have put the genealogy of Ivo Vojnovic on Wikipedia, but you have not read it. If you were at least interested in facts and objectivity, you could read the names of Vojnovic`s ansesters family Vojnovic from Herceg Novi, were his father was born, and that he was for some reason conte of Užice (Serbia) etc. But you are not interested in sources, not in those that you have presented, you are only interested in hrvatstvovanje, by which you are making damage to values and principles you think you are protecting.

We should remove that from the article, and just leave serbian orthodox family and father Jovan/Ivan and mother Pelagija. Go to the librery and find some books like Important Croats, that was published at the same time (1888 or 1900), were you could find his Croat father. That you have some personal problem with this, and that you are more sensitive than the others (I have seen your acctions on Wikipedia), could be seeen from the fact that is quite stiking, that instead celebating Easter, you are fighting for you invention of the Croat father of Preradovic. I think that this discussion should be transffered to your personal page where we could go on SINE IRA ET STUDIO discussing what were your intentions when you have invented this Croat father, or some other actions, that are not in BONA FIDE way Wikipedia should be operating. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.189.255.38 (talk) 13:55, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

As I said, using books from 1888 as a reference does not introduce much of a confidence in the verifiability and veracity of your statements. The dual naming scheme of "Jovan/Ivan" for his father you use is quite intriguing (reminds me when Serb nationalists renamed "renamed" Ivan Gundulić to "Jovan Gundulić" approx. in the same period). OK, I promise to recheck in Tuesday (tomorrow is also holiday ^_^, so libraries don't work) to find more info on the "ethnicity" of his parents in more reliable works in the library. As I said, we cannot simply uncritically use Serbian propaganda sources according to whom e.g. Gundulić or Bošković would be amongst "100 najvećih Srba" (as sr.wiki categorises them ^_^), but the whole perspective must be critically laid out and explained. Yes indeed Preradović is usually treated as Croatian poet due to his patriotic engagement in the Illyrian movement. Even in the poem you mention (Hrvat ili Srbin) he retorts to accusations for hrvatovanje by appealing to...pan-Slavism. So he was not really much of a proud Serb inasmuch as he was a proud Croat at any case. I can understand your concerns, but srpstvo is not something genetically transmitted, and the person himself chooses his own cultural, ethnical, national, whatever affiliation he wishes to endorse.

PS: I don't "celebrate Easter" or other primitive paganic customs fabricated by clerocapitalist mafia throughout the ages. You should study etymologies of word such as Easter, and origins of customs such as egg painting, and you'll realise that all of them have some kind of paganic sun/fertility-worshiping origins and were only much later incorporated in Christian "tradition". I prefer to spend my free granted thru these holidays (regardless of myself being atheist) on projects such as WP because unfortunately it's the only period when I have enough free time these days. Seriously dude, see the Zeitgeist and purify thy mind finally ^_^ --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 17:59, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Sourced info

I re-added Serbian origin. We have sourced text in the article where we can see that he was born in Serbian orthodox family. And per his birth place, and his parents, he is Croat, of Serbian origin. --WhiteWriter ^speaks 16:12, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

He dclared himself as Serb in one of his works:

Ti se na me srdiš, mili pobratime, Veliš: Srbin jesi, srbsko imaš ime, Tvoji pradjedovi svi su Srblji bili, Na Kosovu polju morda krvcu lili, A ti, njihov unuk, za Srblje nemariš, Već se u Hrvatstvu pokvarenu kvariš! Tvoj me ukor, pobre, tišti odveć jako I da niesam vojnik, pod tiskom bih plako; Al ovako znadeš lahke su mi misli, I popuštam ondje, gdje bi drugi stisli. Izvan, ako hoćeš, da se pohrvamo, A ti sedlaj noge, pak dojaši amo, Ustanovi mjesto, vrieme i drugara, Pa ćemo razpačat, što nam srdca para, A u cielom svietu neka spomen bude, Da su do dva brata bili dvije lude.

I do not negate he is Croatian poet, but he never renonunced his Serbian ethnicity.

True. And something that people usually don't know, everybody ″who is Orthodox must be a Serb″ - that is the biggest lie that Serbs say every day. --46.188.222.241 (talk) 14:08, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

And where did you find that text? Maybe in Šumadija in some cave where chetniks wrote that on the wall. --46.188.222.241 (talk) 14:11, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

And it does not belong in the opening paragraph per WP:OPENPARA. The issue is already mentioned in the Biography section. Shokatz (talk) 14:39, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

He could not be born in Serbian ortodox family when there were no SOC at the time. Peasents didn`t even know what nationality is and he consideret himself to be Croat of ortodox faith as all intellectuals in Croatia at the time.