Talk:Paul Jaray

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Paul Jaray or Pál Járay?[edit]

Járay was born in Hungary and his native name was Pál Járay. But it was a common practice that the non-German people of the multicultural Austro-Hungarian monarchy had an alternative German-speaking or "Germanised" name which was used when they studied or worked in another area. This doesn't mean that the name was changed, the Germanised name was only used in a different context.

The question is that should the Germanised or real name used in the English Wikipedia? --Gwafton (talk) 12:12, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As I understand Jaray probably had to leave countries under Nazi rule (meaning former AustroHungary) because of his jewish origin. The question is, what name was he using later in his life? It is common that expats living in new country adopt version of their name suiting their new home (it is typical also for many Czechs that left CR after 1948 communist revolution or 1968 soviet invasion). Is there any source that would provide information about what name was Jaray using in Switzerland later in his life? It would be understandable that he would change his name moreover after what Hungary did to jews in its territory.

I believe Wikipedia should respect Jaray's decision about his name, provided it can be found, and either leave the one used now or change it to Hungarian original.

Meanwhile I don't support the theory about change of name being common in AustroHungary when changing place. Even now almost 100 years after dissolution of monarchy you can see that number of names (especially shops) in Vienna are Czech, just without proper diacritics (though there are also some germanised, indeed). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cimmerian praetor (talk • contribs) 20:20, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

He moved to Switzerland already at late 1920's, so the reason was not the nazi rule (but the reason why he moved is not relevant). Of course it was more logical to use his German name because it is one of the official languages of Switzerland. Járay was born in Vienna and he had Hungarian-Jewish roots, but he became later catolic. Actually I have no idea what was his national identity (if he even had any).

There are plenty of people in Austria with a Czech origin. Many of them moved there during the era of the Empire but also huge amount of them are those Sudeten Germans who moved to Austria after they were expelled from Czechoslovakia in 1946.

There are many ways how people Germanised their names during the Austro-Hungarian era and after that. It was natural and practical to people in the multilingual and multicultural country, before people started to have their national background as a part of their identity. --Gwafton (talk) 08:09, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Was he born in Hungary, or in Vienna? What I meant is that by the end of 1930's he couldn't be in Austria nor Hungary, the anti-jew laws were strict about it, changing religion wouldn't help. What I wanted to say by that is, that he MIGHT loathed his Hungarian roots later in his life due to shoa. Anyway, the question stands - which name was he using in his late years? I believe Wikipedia should follow that.

Most Germans who were expelled from Czechoslovakia had German names, therefore I believe they didn't change much about non-Germanised Czech names being common in Austria. I am myself decendant of one who wasn't expelled also due to difficult pre-war situation of Zaolzie, which was initially invaded by Poland in 1938 and later incorporated to Reich after fall of Poland in 1939 (it is not frequently mentioned that in 1938 Hitler had backing not only of France and Britain via München agreement, but also with Poland and Hungary via bilateral treaties). Some of my relatives emigrated due to communist oppression and I would never doubt their desicion about changing name to suit their new homelands. And so I stand for Mr. Jaray's name. (Though I have no idea which he was using, I will support whatever version he prefered to have on his tombstone) Cimmerian praetor (talk) 09:29, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, maybe it is difficult to find a clear answer to this. I anyway added his Hungarian name to the article.

Austria-Hungary was a mess of different nationalities and national identities - maybe the European Union will be such after a few decades. Especially the national identities of Silesians (the people of historical Silesia in today's Poland, Czech republic and partly in Germany) are maybe the most diverse in the universe - depending on person you are talking with, he/she feels being Czech, Polish, Silesian, German, Sorbian, Moravian, Polish-speaking Czech, Polish-speaking German, German-speaking Polish or Czech-speaking German or whatsoever. :) --Gwafton (talk) 10:59, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Tell me about it. I actually answer the question differently to different people. I say to Czechs and Polish that I am Silesian, but when I find out that they are nationalists, I say to Czechs that I am Polish and to Polish that I am German (that always starts heated discussion, especially when I state that as traditional minority I have right to use my native language in the country :-) ). When people from other countries ask me I usually say that I am Czech. And beautiful thing about this all is that given my family roots none of the answers is a lie. I only feel sorry that Germans killed all the jews and Czechs made flee most Germans, it would be much more interesting place, if these two would still be here! Cimmerian praetor (talk) 20:50, 19 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Good point, I forgot to mention that the national identity also depends on that who is asking! :)

Anyway, about Jaray. Nowadays nearly everyone has a some kind of national identity but this wasn't obvious in the past. Maybe Jaray didn't have such or it didn't play a big role in his life. Most likely he also later introduced himself as Járay Pál to Hungarians. If he didn't have a national identity, maybe we shouldn't define such to him from our point of view. He was Járay Pál in Hungarian and Paul Jaray in German and after considering about this I would say it is just a matter of taste which name you prefer to use in other languages - unless there is a fixed practice for such cases in Wikipedia. --Gwafton (talk) 11:55, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A lot of nonsense about Paul Jaray on this discussion page. Please look at Jaray family pages and on www.bmwism.com for more info about Paul Jaray, his name (his family used another name in Hungary), as well as reasons he moved to Switzerland as much publicized problems with his bicycle and threat of legal litigation. Vic on Nov.2, 2010(178.73.63.12 (talk) 21:44, 2 November 2010 (UTC)).[reply]

Thanks for the link. If you are the author of the page or if you know where the information about the designers is from, could you tell it please? --Gwafton (talk) 20:10, 3 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

AsparagusTips (talk) 19:23, 1 January 2013 (UTC)If he was born in Hungary his surname should go first before his first names, therefore was his first name Pal or Jaray, and shouldn't you be quoting his name in Hungarian in this style?[reply]