Talk:Panakas

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HELP, HELP, HELP[edit]

HELP, HELP, HELP I am ready to update this article but there is a problem its title is plural. The correct name should be Panaka.

What can I do?

  • Option one: Wiki editors will be so kind to help me and change the name to Panaka
  • Option two: I cancel all the text from the current article and insert a #Redirect Panaka

What can I do?? Thank you in advance Aga 15:02, 11 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Articles needs new title[edit]

As I just have anotated in the Spanish version of the article, it is not clear that the word panaca was ever used for 'royal kin' among the Incas. Contemporary Andean studies are correcting this previous unfounded assumption. Contemporary Andean philologists are proposing etymologies and meanings for the word. As such, contemporary historians are abandoning the term panaca as 'royal kin' or 'royal aillu'. 2001:1388:4463:9074:F05F:728B:C59:5938 (talk) 18:21, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your valuable contribution. Since long time I am trying to (re)write the article about panaka (singular, please).
Please take a look at the draft I am preparing here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Aga_Khan_(IT)/sandbox/Panaca
If you have sources supporting your position please send me the links so that I can read and use them.
If possible identify yourself as a contributor to Wikipedia
Aga 12:10, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
While it’s missing some info (easy to add), and has some grammatical problems, that seems like a nice draft. I can only encourage you to modify the article. Encyclopédisme (talk) 00:10, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi. Thanks for writing. I have not been able to read in detail your proposal. But there are some comments I can offer. First of all, although it is a matter of dispute, Andean studies specialists tend to prefer to retain old Spanish spellings for well-known Andean indigenous words. You could review the note about that by Paul Heggarty and Adrien J. Pearce's in their book History and Language in the Andes (Palgrave, 2011). My second point is that there's no current consensus about the existence nor the meaning of panaca(s). So a lot of things have been said about a thing we are not sure existed. For Wikipedia purposes, I would argue for re-writing the article and renaming it in terms of what is known about Inca royal families or Inca royal aillu(s). That is what I have advocated for in the Spanish wikipedia counterpart. Finally, I can suggest some readings, all three of them in Spanish. The best summit of the literature about panaca(s) is Francisco Hernández Astetes', here: https://journals.openedition.org/bifea/3282#tocto1n2 He is the one who notices the intepretation of panaca as 'Inca royal lineage' is due to Luis E. Valcárcel and is not founded in colonial documentarion. He has also a book abour Incas and ancestry. Best analysis of the possible origin and colonial documentation of the term is by linguist César Itier here: https://repositorio.pucp.edu.pe/index/handle/123456789/190099 His proposed meaning of the word as some specific official is not consensual, though. For example, linguist Rodolfo Cerrón-Palomino offers a different analysis and etymology in several lectures. You could read this latter specialist in his book Las lenguas de los incas: el puquina, el aimara y el quechua (PL Academic Research, 2013). I hope to read carefully your draft soon. 2001:1388:4463:EC92:F831:30F2:E938:6775 (talk) 19:06, 22 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I just found out there's a text online (uploaded by the author himself) in which Cerrón-Palomino offers his etymological proposal. Here: https://www.academia.edu/40236493/La_tesis_del_quechuismo_primitivo_y_su_efecto_distorsionador_en_la_interpretaci%C3%B3n_del_pasado_prehisp%C3%A1nico He says he explains in detail his analysis in another text. 2001:1388:4463:EC92:A1CD:DDA2:4F10:9740 (talk) 02:54, 23 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There is a pretty clear consensus (for good or bad) for the existence of the panakas (which can be written with an s in plural, as a historiographic term, used in other languages, and not a Quechua term). Otherwise, interesting post. Encyclopédisme (talk) 00:13, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your references, some of them I had read, but I will go again through them and also read the Cerrón-Palomino's article you mention.
Many Inca-related terms have been invented by chroniclers, and archaeologists (e.g. kallanka) but they are now part of the terminology currently used. So I would stick to "panaka" (or panaca) since in the article I explain the origin and next year I will probably give an even better explantion
Let's keep in touch. Aga 17:14, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
+ 1. Reiner Tom Zuidema already mentioned this thing in 1962, it’s nothing new. Encyclopédisme (talk) 00:04, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@SantiChau23 moved the page to "Panaca (Inca Empire)". He was reverted because there was not a previous consensus. I think aforementioned movement was correct. Maybe @Aga Khan (IT) will agree. Greetings. Nawabaonbake (talk) 23:38, 2 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wait, I’ve heard of that book, it’s one book, and it’s far from consensual. We don’t need articles for words unless there is cultural context. Reiner Tom Zuidema was already talking about this in 1962. Neither Zuidema, nor Itier, nor Cerrón-Palomino, nor someone else, present consensual propositions. It still doesn’t justify moving the article. Encyclopédisme (talk) 00:03, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Specifically on abandoning the term, this isn’t quite true, the convention still exists, and will probably continue to exist in the following decades. It’s an easy distinction between royal and non-royal ayllu Encyclopédisme (talk) 00:07, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I was talking about renaming this article (now entitled "Panakas") as "Panaca (Inca Empire)". Greetings. Nawabaonbake (talk) 00:18, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Greetings. I know. Encyclopédisme (talk) 00:21, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Please do not use Cuzco Academy dictionary for Quechua etymologies[edit]

Hi. I am just editing the first paragraph so it does not imply that the word panaca was used for this meaning in pre-Hispanic Quechua. As explained in the etymology section, that is pretty disputed.

On top of that, I sincerely suggest not to use Academia Mayor's dictionary for Quechua etymologies, as was used for well-stablished terms as Sapa Inca and auqui. I am erasing references to that source. For starters, while such a dictionary may be a good reference for contemporary Cuzco city meanings, it is just rubbish for ancient meanings or etymologies. It is full of false etymologies (e.g. Cajamarca as containing the Southern Quechua word qasa 'frost') and wrong language attributions (e.g. Mochica-origin word cholo as a Quechua-origin one). The best review of such monumental bad work is by linguist César Itier (2009). Other linguists have also proved such source's unreliability.

Nawabaonbake (talk) 00:16, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not this again. This is about a damn concept, an idea, not about a word. The intro is fine. Encyclopédisme (talk) 00:22, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I literally do not know what you are talking about again. Nawabaonbake (talk) 00:26, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The introduction is fine. How do you not understand what I mean? You cannot make wikipedia a dictionary, this article is about what most historians refer to as such, one section for some linguistic debates, fine, but this article is not about the word Panaka. Encyclopédisme (talk) 00:29, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am starting to doubt the content added by @Aga Khan (IT):, which literally stated Garcilaso didn’t identify with a panaka, citing Rostworowski… Encyclopédisme (talk) 00:41, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That content is using sources without regard for their original sense, and giving to much importance to a not-known, and minoritarian postulat. I am going to be working on this page tomorrow (with sources). And there is no word yet on Reiner Tom Zuidema… This is going to be hard work. Cheers. Encyclopédisme (talk) 00:48, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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