Talk:Orion (mythology)/Archive 1

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2004

Removed - may put some back Stirling Newberry 07:52, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Bloody death and fertility are inescapably linked connotations for the many-seeded pomegranate with its dark red juice. Is the chambered pomegranate also a surrogate for the poppy's narcotic capsule? On a Mycenaean seal (illustrated in Joseph Campbell's Occidental Mythology, figure 19) the seated Goddess of the double-headed axe (the labrys) offers three poppy pods in her right hand and supports her breast with her left. She embodies both aspects of the dual goddess, life-giving and death-dealing at once. Is that why Persephone found the pomegranate waiting, when she sojourned in the dark realm?
Orion's link with the pomegranate is sufficiently clearly demonstrated in the article. The well-established pomegranate symbolism has been strengthened at Pomegranate. I have stripped the "goddess" sidetrack from the article: Mesopotamian, Syria, Anatolia and the Aegean pretty well covers the whole area relevant for the Orion figure. --Wetman 08:27, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
Enkidu, before he was entrapped and humanized through the erotic lure of a temple courtesan, offers a glimpse into the nature of primal Orion. "The whole of his body was hairy and his (uncut) locks were like a woman's or the hair of the goddess of grain. Moreover, he knew nothing of settled fields or human beings and was clothed (in skins) like a deity of flocks." Like the Titan, Enkidu was "tall in stature, towering up to the battlements over the wall," as his urban chroniclers described him. "Surely he was born in the mountains," the shepherds cried out, when they first saw him. But once Enkidu had been civilized, the animals fled from him. Now "he scattered the wolves, he chased away the lions" and the herders could lie down in peace, for Enkidu was now their watchman. The Sumerian Epic of Gilgamesh (we have it in a late Babylonian version) remained untranslated into Greek until modern times, and there was no direct knowledge of the Enkidu of the Gilgamesh story in the Achaean world, though pieces of tablet with fragments describing Enkidu's death have turned up at Megiddo in Canaan and at Emar on the upper Euphrates River in Syria. It wasn't a question of the figure of Enkidu influencing the myth of Orion. Both were survivals of a Neolithic Master of the Animals.

This is far too speculative, he hangs a long paragraph on one convergence, goes off for a long time on Enkidu, which should be in a link. Does not firm up the association with the neolithic hunt god, who would be Theos in any event, and therefore is probably another mythological archetype from later, imposed over the Sothic story. Stirling Newberry 07:56, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The idea of "the neolithic hunt god, who would be Theos" innocently reveals a state of ignorance: imagine a neolithic hunt god with the Indo-European name Theos. "This is far too speculative" gives an authoritative impression, but it's blarney. At any rate the Orion-Enkidu parallel is presented strongly in the article, now that I've returned the italicised text, the significance of which won't be lost on the reader with some basic grounding. Other material belongs at Enkidu. When I have time and patience I shall return to retrieve essential material concerning Orion, including the actual telling of the myth, overlooked by our confident editor when he too-boldly trashed this article. --Wetman 08:27, 29 July 2005 (UTC)--Wetman 08:27, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
Through his pomegranate union, the Neolithic nature of primitive Orion was consecrated to the Goddess. Once he had been brought into the civilized world, Orion was ready for his second episode: now Orion was prepared to stake a claim to Merope of Chios. He plunged into the Aegean and was soon well away from shore, when, looking back, he saw his two great hounds struggling in the waves. Turning back, he took them up, and thus he came ashore on Chios, with his great spear slung across his broad back and under each massive arm a hunting dog, the Great One and the Lesser One.
When he came ashore, Orion found that he was once again in a place called Hyrai, another bee-swarm. The two Hyrai may have functioned as two entrances to the netherworld, which would have enabled Orion to pass between Boeotia and Chios in a chthonic journey. In later Classical times, the "tomb" of Orion that was shown to visitors in Boeotia may have been the cave-entrance.
In the island of Chios, the "Merope" whom Orion sought seems to mean "honey-faced" in Greek, thus "eloquent," but surely at an earlier level her "face" was a bee-mask. Cretan bee-masked priestesses appear on Minoan seals. One of the mythographers recalled the tradition that "Merope" was the "bee-eater" in the old Minoan tongue, before the Hellenes ever came to the Aegean. The proto-Greek invaders did not bring the art of bee-keeping with them. Homer saw bees as wild, never tame, as when the Achaeans issued forth from their ship encampment "like buzzing swarms of bees that come out in relays from a hollow rock" (Iliad, book II). Bee-keeping was a Minoan craft, and the fermented honey-drink was the old Cretan intoxicant, older than wine. Long after Knossos fell, for two thousand years, the classical Greek tongue preserved "honey-intoxicated" as the phrase for "drunken."

But there are too many Meropes in mythic fragments. One Merope married Sisyphus. Another Merope and her sister Cleothera were the orphaned daughters of Trojan Pandarus. Yet another Merope was queen to Creophontes in Messenia, until "serial killer" Polyphontes murdered him and claimed Merope and her matriarchal throne. Still another Merope, also known as Periboea, the wife of Polybus at Corinth, adopted Oedipus.

This name Merope figures in too many isolated tales for "Merope" to be an individual. Instead the "Merope" must denote a position as priestess of the Goddess. But surely Merope the "bee-eater" is unlikely to be always a bee herself. Though there is a small Mediterranean bird called the Bee-Eater, which was known under that name to Roman naturalists Pliny and Aelian, this Bee-Eater is most likely to have been a She-Bear, a representative of Artemis. The goddess was pictured primitively with a she-bear's head herself, and the bear remained sacred to Artemis into classical times. At a festival called the Brauronia, pre-pubescent girls were dressed in honey-colored yellow robes and taught to perform a bear dance. Once they had briefly served Artemis in this way, they would be ready to be married. In later times, a Syriac Book of Medicine recommends that the eye of a bear, placed in a hive, makes the bees prosper. The bear's spirit apparently watches over the hive, and this was precisely the Merope's role among the Hyrai at Chios.


Such Bronze Age Aegean cult centers guided by priestesses dedicated to the Great Goddess were deeply threatening to the Hellene invaders and warranted close patriarchal supervision. Placed in charge of this Merope and her hive on Chios was Oinopion, the "wine-man," a son of Dionysus. Some say he came from Crete, others specify Lemnos or Naxos. Wine mixed with fermented honey, as at Chios, mediated between the sacred intoxicants of the old order and the new patriarchal Olympian one, and honey mixed with wine remained a suitable libation to propitiate both levels of divinity, as Jason and the Argonauts wisely showed when they first set foot ashore in the chthonic and dangerous land of Colchis.
Under the old regime that Orion embodies, Oinopion would have been the annual consort of the Merope, but at the time level of the Orion myths, he had become as a "father" to her instead, a guardian-sponsor. Though the late poets thus called him Merope's father, Oinopion betrayed his most unfatherlike jealousy and determination to preserve his position. When the Titan came ashore, stained with pomegranate blood, ready to offer himself as a candidate for the role of consort, Oinopion set Orion a challenging contest to justify his right. Since he was so famed as a hunter, Orion had to rid the island of all its dangerous wild beasts. There was an ironic shift of roles here, for the animal-master of the Neolithic had originally been the spirit-protector of the animals, similar to the untamed Enkidu, who released them from the hunters' traps and springes. At the Neolithic level, the Master of the Animals was their protector; the hunter had to propitiate him, so that he would release the animals from his care; only then could the hunt be successful. Orion, like primal Enkidu also the "offspring of the mountains," had been at one with the wild creatures until he achieved self-consciousness. Now the "awakened" Animal Master hunted them himself. There was further irony in Oinopion's demand, if the "bee-eater" were herself a bear. And in his heart the usurping Oinopion was unwilling to be bested, to resign, though no longer to be sacrificed in the archaic way, even though Orion might successfully master the ritual contests.
Evening after evening Orion brought in pelts of bear and lion, lynx and wolf, and piled them in the Hyrian palace-hive. But it was never enough. Even though the island was rendered secure from marauding beasts, wily Oinopion always claimed that there were still rumors of a wolf or a bear heard to be roaming the island's farthest mountain districts.

In the evenings Oinopion plied Orion with his wine. Wine, the civilized gift of Dionysus, has a wild other nature, as the toxic barren ivy. Wine worked potently on the Titan's own wild and earthy nature, and one night in darkness, after the household had all gone to their chambers, Orion, inflamed by wine, took the perhaps not-unwilling Merope, there in her palace-hive. Then, overcome, he slept.

While Orion lay in a stupor, Oinopion stole upon him and he put out Orion's eyes. With a shout, Oinopion called up the guards, and just as a hive of bees will cast out a giant hornet intruder, they cast Orion, blinded, down onto the seashore, where ocean and land come together.
For a long time, there the Hunter lay. When a Titan has been outwardly blinded, he may receive in compensation a gift of inner sight. So Orion needed no oracle, as some have claimed, to know that he must seek out the first light of Helios, just when his chariot rises from the easternmost rim of Oceanus, that the place to achieve this was the eastern edge of the possible world, which is also known as the land of Colchis. There the sun's first rays would restore his sight.
Meanwhile, how had Merope fared? In such mythic contests, the "prize" often favors the heroic contender, as Ariadne was to favor Theseus. Now this Merope of Chios was at the same time one of the seven Pleiades, the "sailing sisters." They were named in the old matriarchal way for their mother Pleione. Sometimes Atlas is said to be their father, and then they are called the "Atlantides." If Atlas is indeed the father of Orion too, then his daughters the Pleiades are Orion's half-sisters. No wonder then that Orion longed to cleave to this Merope, if they had indeed sprung from the same stock.
All Aegean sailors knew that the Pleiades mark out the season that is safe for venturing upon the sea. The season opens "when from the Bull, the Sun enters into the Twins at the rising of the Pleiades." Nowadays this falls in late May. The safe sailing is over "when the Sun enters the Scorpion, at the setting of the Pleiades," all according to the Roman Vitruvius, who was quoting the Greek astronomer Democritus. By a witty invention, Pindar made them the "Peleiades"- the flock of doves- but this was just a momentary trope.
But was this Merope at the same time one of the Heliades, the sisters of Phaeton and daughters of Helios, as Hyginus tells? That would have made her a doubly-fit guide to lead the sightless Orion through the seas to the house of the Sun.
Northwards from Chios Orion made his way, whether guided by his inner sight or led by the rising Merope and her sisters, once the late spring weather had safely settled. Within a day or so he came to the volcano isle of Lemnos, where Hephaistos maintains his forge. Orion descended to the underworld smithy in the island's fiery heart. Later the Lemnian cave would become famous for its mysteries, in which each initiate was united with his chthonic brother counterpart. Like them, Orion himself sought no product of Hephaistos' forge, neither armor nor cauldron nor tripod. Instead, from among the many apprentices in the cavernous smithy of Lady Hera's son, Orion took up one, Cedalion, for a guide and set the youth upon his shoulders. So together they sailed north and east, with Merope in her sailing aspect to guide them, through the narrows and the Propontis, into the wide Euxine Sea.
Far to the eastern shore, in Colchis at the uttermost end of the world, Helios, whose bright eye misses nothing on the earth nor in the sea, sleeps by night in the golden house of Aietes, until he is waked by Eos, the Dawn. There, when Dawn came lighting the east with rosy fingers, the first rays of sunlight struck Orion's face and look! his sight was restored. But at the first flush of dawn, Merope faded and failed. Thus of seven Pleiades who still guide Orion across the vault of night, only six are to be seen, if there should be even the least hint of rosy-fingered Dawn. Alexandrian poets liked to imagine that Merope hides her face in shame, for having married the mere mortal Sisyphus, king of Corinth, while all her Pleiad sisters were given to Olympic gods. But that worldly snobbery speaks more of the Hellenistic Age of Monarchies than of the age of myth.
Eos too is of the Titan lineage, and she was immediately smitten by the handsomest Titan of all. That daughter of Hyperion always has weaknesses for demi-gods with some Titan blood in their veins, and Eos longed to cast her bright thighs across his dark ones. There in the house of Helios Orion tarried all summer. Yet at each approach of Dawn, Orion paled and grew faint, his flesh growing transparent under her very touch.
Next, Orion returned to the island of Chios, burning for revenge on Oinopion. But it appears that he arrived in the winter season, when the Chians had pruned their vines to stubs. For we are told that the "wine-man" Oinopion lay secretly in an underground chamber prepared for him by Hephaistos, awaiting his annual renewal we can be sure, and Orion sought him up and down, but in vain.
Then, at the end of winter, Orion passed under the horizon to Crete. Crete was still the homeland of archaic pre-Greek goddess-centered cult.
The oldest of these aspects of the Goddess was as Mother of Mountains, who appears on Minoan seals with the demonic features of a Gorgon, accompanied by the double-axes of power and gripping divine snakes. Her terror-inspiring aspect was softened by calling her Britomartis, the "good virgin." Every element of the Classical myths that told of Britomartis served to reduce her, even literally to entrap her in nets (but only because she "wanted" to be entrapped): patriarchal writers even made her the "daughter" of Zeus, rather than his patroness when he was an infant in her cave, and they made her own tamed, "evolved" and cultured aspect, Artemis, responsible for granting Britomartis goddess status. But the ancient goddess never quite disappeared and remained on the coins of Cretan cities, as herself or as Diktynna, the goddess of Mount Dikte, Zeus' birthplace. As Diktynna, winged and now represented with a human face, she stood on her ancient mountain, and grasped an animal in each hand, in the guise of Potnia, the Mistress of animals. Later Greeks could only conceive of a mistress of animals as a huntress, but on the early seals she suckles griffons. Archaic representations of winged Artemis show that she evolved from Potnia theron, the Mistress of Animals.
There in Crete Orion had an obscure encounter with the death-dealing Scorpion, whose ascendency in the zodiac marks the downturn of the year. The scorpion is a natural symbol of death, of the darkness of night and the underworld generally. So it was perceived in Sumer, in Egypt, in the Book of Kings (12:11) and among Zoroastrians. The scorpion is a creature of the Triple Goddess too, under the death-bringing aspect of her death-and-life renewal cycle. One late mythmaker would have it that Hera (still at some level Mistress of the Animals) was incensed by a report of Apollo that related Orion's boast that he was master of all the wild creatures of the Aegean. Some myths would have Orion die of the scorpion's sting, to be brought back to life by the healer Aesclepias, who would then be struck down by Zeus' thunderbolt in retribution for his audacity.
Perhaps, though, the Scorpion simply refers to Orion's union and renewal with the Goddess. For the restored and completed Orion, earth-man of mountains from the distant Neolithic past, master of the animals, fortified with honey-drink, stained still with the Goddess's pomegranate, bursting with virile seed, now sought out Artemis herself, at Delos. Even though he was reunited in Crete with the Great Goddess, Orion fixed his resolve to conquer Artemis as her consort. And this was to be his undoing. When the Pleiades rose from the Sea of Crete at the end of winter, Orion made his way north to Delos, still accompanied by the faithful Dawn.
But Artemis, now that she has been reborn on Delos as an Olympian goddess, must strenuously reject her own old ways, the blood sacrifices and the sequence of ritually murdered consorts. Now that Olympian Artemis is twinned chastely with Apollo instead, she has no further need of consorts at all. Thus it is that, walking along the coast of Delos, the twin Olympians spy at a great distance the giant head of the swimmer, no more than a black speck in the dazzling sun-path on the sea.
"Look!" cries Apollo. "There is the false Candaeon, who has seduced your chaste priestess in the Hyperborean north." Artemis does not recognize this Boeotian nickname for Orion, and she has drawn her bow and transfixed him with three arrows before she realizes her error. So Orion is safely banished to the skies, where, indeed, perhaps he had always been.

More stuff which is too much a mixture of the story, some connections and a whole ton of speculation based on locations without ordering correctly. It's also POV style. Leaving it here and sorting through material a bit at a time.

I took out the reference to Orion being a Titan at the beginning. According to one of the birth stories listed here his father was Posiedon, so he was not a titan.

Oh, so he was "not a titan" then... Frankly, I always think editing at Wikipedia is better if one knows something about the subject. The products of American High Schools all seem to have majored in Self-Confidence... --Wetman 05:17, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Too Complicated

Leaving aside the other, above criticisms (particularly the speculation throughout the article), I think that this article is perhaps too complicated/specialized for an encyclopedia entry. It would be nice if a more succinct explanation of the myth(s) were provided. I'm not saying that the article as it stands should be deleted, but a more compact distillation of the the myth might be given in the first paragraph, before the in-depth analysis, so that the lay-person can readily find what they are looking for.--MS Also, the parenthetical statement in the first paragraph didn't make sense to me; I think it should be clarified.

The phrase in parenthesis is
"("mountain man" if the name is truly Greek)".
It gives the standard etymology of Orion, and expresses a reservation, without entering into speculation, which the current stripped-down version of the article is avoiding. The subject is inherently complicated, as there's no single "correct" Greek literary version of the Orion myth (as the article states), which would make the myth apperar "simple". The Simple English Wikipedia should be routinely consulted for simple and succinct answers. The article does need a summarizing first paragraph. --Wetman 06:12, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
I came here for a little info on Orion, and have noted the comments here. As has been stated elsewhere on this page, there are many different sources for the myth, which complicates things. I think that rather than explaining them as an amalgamation, it might make the article clearer and more orderly if each version had its own section, where the entire myth were stated. So if you had three sources, Smith, Jones, and Johnson, for example, you could have a heading for the Smith version of the myth, followed by a Jones heading, then ending with a Johnson heading. Lkusz
The sources, many of which are given in notes and references, are very fragmentary, sometimes just a passing remark or a phrase. The article is complicated, because no ancient "biography" of Orion exists: see the Orion references at www.theoi.com, linked in the references, and you'll see. Odysseus, by contrast, makes an easily-told narrative. It's a relief to see someone take this seriously. --Wetman 03:56, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Agreed by Scholars

The article omits (going off on a Greek tanget) what all scholars agree, that Orion is the Osiris of Egyptian mythology and so his story is around in Egypt 2,000-3,000 years before there were ANY Greek myths.

HE IS ALSO Horus of the Horizon... etc.

And he is the beginning of ALL father figures in all religions including the Christian Holy Trinity of the Father, the Son & the Holy Spirit.

/s/ trireem nautonier , GM of PS ~/` —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.195.73.244 (talk) 13:02, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Meanderings and speculations

The core of this article should really deal with Orion in mythology like any proper encyclopedia. The material presented is mostly speculation and opinion, which at best, should be placed under a minor sub-heading "Interpretations" and be considerably condensed. I attempted to make some minor amendments which were mostly editted out of this closely guarded article. 1) Orion as a giant. No classical author describes him as a Titan, a title reserved for the sons and grandsons of Ouranos. 2) Hyria is a town near Aulis and Tanagra. There are historical references to the settlement, including its incorporation into the Tanagran polis in 338 BC. 3) Euryale, daughter of Minos. How can one justify associating her with the Gorgon of the same name? Classical writers never did. They share a name, but then so did many characters of myth. 4) Why discard the king Hyrieus? Ovid, Hyginus and Antoninus Liberalis are all authors who source their material from older Greek texts. As for the rest, the entire page needs a major overhaul. Theranos 21:50, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Replaced

As many have noted above, the text of this article consisted of highly "speculative" (or rather made-up) divagations on Enkidu, phony etymologies, "modern" interpretations, and bogus "Neolithic myths" (n.b., a recorded myth of a preliterate society is a contradiction in terms). I attempted to whittle it down to the basic story of Orion, but there was little enough of that and nothing trustworthy. So I excised it all in favor of material based on (not copied from) two public-domain mythology encyclopedias. It would be better to go back to Apollodorus and Hyginus, but I don't have those authors available to me.RandomCritic 03:52, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Everyone has pseudo-Apollodorus' Bibliotheke and Hyginus— if Fabulae seem like a dependable and thoughtful source— available to them: they're on-line, and linked from the Wikipedia with a single click. Lazy. The two "references" are William Smith, A Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology, (1867) and Oscar Seyffert Dictionary of Classical Antiquities, (1894). This is a bold editor indeed: why not base the article on Thomas Bulfinch?

Two versions, for the reader's comparison:

Compare the two, paragraph by paragraph, reference by reference, and see: incompetent" is a strong word: is it undeserved? --Wetman 06:02, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Genuine reservations

If any reader has misgivings about a phrase, that it might not be supported in literary Greek or Latin myth or relate to published commentary, please insert {{fact}} after the offending phrase. Readers editing in good faith will be unlikely to pepper the article with more than a half-dozen such citation requests at an edit, one supposes. Thank you for your patience. --Wetman 07:56, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

I see the crap has been restored. Every single sentence in this article would demand "citation requests". The problem is not primarily an absence of citation. The problem is an absence of relevance or fact. RandomCritic 13:27, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Ancestry, origins, birth

According to Hesiod,[1] Orion was a son of Poseidon and the beautiful and awful Gorgon Euryale, in this context said to be one of the daughters of King Minos of Crete. Her name means the "wide-ranging" one, she of the "wide salt sea", eureia halys.[2].

The etymology is really irrelevant, even if valid. Note that two incommensurable etymologies are given!

Boeotians said[3] that Orion was born instead in Boeotia

A tidbit of fact

, the fertile heart of civilized Hellas, whose folk the Boeotian poet Hesiod described as farmers in the winter and sailors in the summer season.

Followed by irrelevancies

(Did the Boeotians sail but not swim, that they disputed whether Orion waded the Aegean from island to island or merely strode through the waves?).

Followed by meaninglessness

Though some said Orion sprang directly from Gaia, the Earth Mother, others make his father Gaia's grandson, the Titan Atlas, who equally has his great feet planted in the sea.

If this article is so well sourced, why do we have "some said... others make...?"

Orion's Boeotian birth took place at Hyrai

It's a small town. Why make a big fuss about it?

, an ancient place mentioned in Homer's catalogue of the ships that set forth to fetch Helen home from Troy. There a childless king "Hyreus", who had prayed to the gods for a son. Zeus, Poseidon and Hermes, visitors in disguise[4] responded by urinated on a bull's hide and burying it in the earth produced a child. He was named Orion—as if "of the urine"— after the unusual event.[5]

Anything that cites Graves is instantly risible. We do not even seem to be able to spell "Hyrieus", either the first time...

Though the tale creates a fanciful etymology for "Orion", in archaic times, no "Hyraeius"

Or the second.

dwelt at Hyrai.

In standard gravesian mode, actual myth is shoved aside for "authoritative" statements of nonsense.

Like some other archaic names of Greek cities, such as Athenai or Mycenae, Hyrai is a plural form: its name once had evoked the place of "the sisters of the beehive". According to Hesychius, the Cretan word hyron meant 'swarm of bees' or 'beehive' (Kerenyi 1976 pp42-3). Through his "beehive" birthplace Orion is linked to Potnia, the Minoan-Mycenaean "Mistress" older than Demeter—who was herself sometimes called "the pure Mother Bee". Winged, armed with toxin, creators of the fermentable honey (see mead), seemingly parthenogenetic in their immortal hive, bees functioned as emblems of other embodiments of the Great Mother: Cybele, Rhea the Earth Mother, and the archaic Artemis as honored at Ephesus. Pindar remembered that the Pythian pre-Olympic priestess of Delphi remained "the Delphic bee" long after Apollo had usurped the ancient oracle and shrine. The Homeric Hymn to Apollo acknowledges that Apollo's gift of prophecy first came to him from three bee-maidens.

Totally irrelevant pseudo-etymologies that have nothing to do with Orion.

The article continues in this vein for some while, but need I go on? It is crap from beginning to end, based on pseudo-scholarship. It's like writing an astronomy article based on Velikovsky. At least my 19th-century encyclopedists had respect for their material, and did not attempt to force false meanings on it.

It gets better, though...

—Preceding unsigned comment added by RandomCritic (talk • contribs) 07:02, 2 October 2006

Primordial Orion

The Titan Orion...

Not a Titan
Thought-free. Son of the Titan Atlas. Titan of a Titan lineage. If not a titan, then what? Hero? [[]Gigante]]? Perhaps, though, there is actually no focused picture in this interjection at all. --Wetman 22:21, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

...then, literally "mountain-man," (compare orogeny) embodies some primeval aspects of untouched nature.

"Embodies some primeval aspects" -- this is verbiage futilely going in search of meaning. This kind of bloviation occurs throughout.
Obtuse. "Master of the Animals" is one primeval aspect of a primordial hunter. If one can't tell that Orion is an example of "untouched nature", then his successive "acculturation" in a series of encounters will naturally seem incoherent to the reader. --Wetman 22:21, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Readers may find a useful parallel of Orion in the valiant Enkidu, the opposite/brother and rival-made-friend and helper of Gilgamesh. Like Orion Enkidu was "tall in stature, towering up to the battlements over the wall," as his urban chroniclers described him. "Surely he was born in the mountains," the shepherds cried out, when they first saw him. There is no suggestion of a direct transmission from the Sumerian Epic of Gilgamesh (we have it in a late Babylonian version) which remained untranslated into Greek until modern times, and there was no direct knowledge of the Enkidu of the Gilgamesh story in the Achaean world, though pieces of tablet with fragments describing Enkidu's death have turned up at Megiddo in Canaan and at Emar on the upper Euphrates River in Syria, areas on the edges of the Mycenaean world.

Enkidu is interesting, but there is no reason for long divagations about Enkidu in an article on Orion any more than there is a reason for introducing a long discussion of Britney Spears. Both are equally relevant.
Unlettered. Walter Burkert, The Orientalizing Revolution: Near Eastern Influence on Greek Culture in the Archaic Age (Harvard University Press) 1992 might take the bloom off perfect ignorance in this area. --Wetman 22:21, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

It wasn't a question of the figure of Enkidu influencing the myth of Orion. Both were survivals of a Neolithic Master of the Animals, surviving from the Neolithic hunt as the Ice Age waned. The Mother Goddess created Enkidu, just as Gaia gave rise to Orion.

This is of course b.s. There is no such thing as (known) Neolithic myth, and any attempt to "reconstruct" such a thing can be no more than deliberate fraud.
"Deliberate fraud" is a pretty stiff personal accusation up at my end of the trailer park. Without descending to such personal attacks, let me inform my sarcastic correspondent that the "Neolithic Master of the Animals" is a familiar figure to the rest of us, as is the Great Hunt of the late Ice age. Even Joseph Campbell would help lift the fog here: I recommend The Masks of God: Primitive Mythology.--Wetman 22:21, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Edits made in good faith are edits. Cumulative editing provides good articles. Creating an unreferenced parallel article out of one's opinions mixed with half-remembered Greek mythology from seventh grade is a too-familiar tactic: compare the vandal attacking Poseidon in just this same way. --Wetman 22:21, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Orion and Side

Orion's first episode, represented as a "marriage," associates him with Side

This is the extent of the factual element in this entire section

, quite literally the "pomegranate", in a consecration to that aspect of "The Goddess" of the pre-Indo-European peoples of the Aegean and the Fertile Crescent who later evolved into Hera. The union appears purely mystical, a civilizing rite for Orion the representative of Nature:

Absurd speculation.
(Unaware that side is "pomegranate". Unaware of the pomegranate in the hand of Hera in the Arvive Heraion. A little reading would take the edges off this misplaced self-confidence.--Wetman 22:27, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

we hear of no offspring; we know of no named place where Orion presided as Side's consort. The Boeotians simply used the word side as the name for the pomegranate. Other Greek dialects call the pomegranate rhoa; its possible connection with the name of the Earth Goddess Rhea, a name inexplicable in Greek, proved suggestive for the mythographer Karl Kerenyi, who suggested that the consonance might ultimately derive from a deeper, pre-Indo-European language layer.

Dubious etymologies
Karl Kerenyi is a writer on mythology whose very name is unfamiliar apparently. --Wetman 22:27, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
For the layman who comes here, Karl Kerenyi's name may indeed be unfamiliar. It is the point of Wikipedia, isn't it, as it is of any encyclopedia, to assume that the reader of an entry knows nothing on the subject? If that is the case, it would be helpful to the layman (such as myself) to let us know that Kerenyi is, in the circles of mythologists, a well-known writer on mythology. Lkusz

The wild pomegranate did not grow natively in the Aegean area in Neolithic times. It originated in the Iranian east and came to the Aegean world along the same cultural pathways that brought The Goddess whom the Anatolians worshipped as Cybele and the Mesopotamias as Ishtar. The myth of Persephone, the dark goddess of the Underworld also prominently features the pomegranate.

Irrelevant details.
Not to the reader. Enough of this time-wasting.--Wetman 22:27, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Several "pomegranate" places called Side existed in the Greek world, though not in Boeotia. One stood in the Peloponnese, north of Cape Malea. Another Side, daughter of Taurus, gave her name to a place in Pamphylia, a country only marginally Greek during classical times and now part of modern Turkey. Still another Side committed suicide at her mother's tomb, to escape advances made by her father. She became transmuted to a pomegranate tree and he to a kite, emblem of a robber in the Greek mind. Because of the legendary connection, kites allegedly never land in pomegranate trees.

And on, and on in the same vein. None of this belongs in this article. It's not merely questing for a citation; it's gotten lost and is in the wrong neighborhood. Oddly enough, the miniscule story of Side is never given in this whole section!

I could continue, but that's enough for now. It is appalling that this article is on Wikipedia at all.RandomCritic 14:02, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Oh but please do continue. Most enlightening. --Wetman 22:27, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

This is appalling and is a clear candidate for deletion

As someone said above, this article shows everything that can go wrong with Wikipedia (but thankfully rarely does)

A straightforward piece of reference for readers is all that is required from an encylopedia - an intelligent structure, summarising the main points in good, simple English. It is NOT a forum for spouting your own incomprehensible personal pseudo-theories. Please understand that.

This article should be deleted. And I think there is a strong case from preventing whichever idiot keeps re-posting this dreadful verbiage up here from posting elswhere on Wikipedia. Whoever you are, if you can't even begin to see how bad this article is then I'm sorry but you really shouldn't be here.

For a start, it is minimal courtesy to sign your posts. Articles are not deleted from Wikipedia because someone just doesb't like them. Any "personal pseudo-theories" should be flagged [citation needed]. Articles in Wikipedia are not flattering mirrors of one's own incompetence. They are informative and sourced. --Wetman 21:57, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm seeing a lot of rhetoric, but nothing that deals with the central problem that this article is full of illogical, unscholarly associations with irrelevant matters that have nothing to do with the central subject of the article: the mythological Orion. The farrago about "Ice Age mythologies" is only the most obviously nonsensical of these digressions. But even nonsense theories can be fairly covered in a Wikipedia article -- in a subsection which gives them no more prominence than they are due and clearly states that they are disputed. This article, however, in a clearly NPOV move, states these opinions as if they are fact. Worst of all, there is no clear and straightforward statement of what the myths about Orion are. This article is neither accurate nor well-sourced; if we are dependent for our mythology on Graves, Campbell, and Kerenyi/Jung, we are in bad shape. Maybe some classicists rather than "mythologists" could be consulted. RandomCritic 05:51, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Graves is remarkably useful, if his data are distinguished from his personal theories. He makes this simple, by relating the myths, in Pausanias' voice, separately from his interpretations. Beyond that, RC clearly atates the neutral approach, although I would not start with "Show me why this article should not be deleted!"; although Kerenyi and Campbell's views should of course be explained. (I have not checked on practice here.) Septentrionalis 14:58, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Proposed compromise

Set forth the mythological data first, and then explain the modern interpretations (which do not agree perfectly with each other in any case) sepqarately. When there is consensus, this should be noted; where there is not, neither Kerenyi nor Burkert should be given Wikipedia's voice. Stating where the explanation is Graves, where Nilsson, where Farrell, is more useful to the reader in any case. Where the moderns do achieve consensus, say so. What do the two of you think? Septentrionalis 15:11, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

For the chop: Primordial Orion

At the moment, this appears to be WP:OR, since no one is sourced as originating the idea that Enkidu and Orion are somehow linked. Does the idea come from a reliable scholarly source? If not, the whole section just has to go.

DanB†DanD 17:41, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Isn't it Kerenyi? (I'm sure someone has said it; it's not OR = unattributable.) But do take it out; it shouldn't be asserted in Wikipedia's voice as consensus. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:26, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
Isn't. Appears to be Fontenrose, although Graves links Orion to Gilgamesh. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:39, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

2007

I came to this same page on Orion and it seemed very informitable though now it seems that the info that i once saw has been completely gutted out and now seems much more opinionated. if someone knows more about orion please correct this huge rewriten opinion please. in the meantime i think i'll go to the library instead, that seems to be a more reliable resource.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.126.163.20 (talk • contribs)

And again, I agree; most of this lacks adequate citation; none of it should be in Wikipedia's voice; and it should begin with an account of the actual myths. The last step seems simplest; and I will begin shortly. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 04:44, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

What Kerenyi actually says

Gods of the Greeks, all retellings:

  • "In beauty, [the Aloadae ] were second only to the famed hunter Orion." (154)
  • Kedalion, a Kabeiros, the tutor of Hephaistos.(156, citing scholia to Ξ 294, and to Aen. 10,763]
  • Pleiades band of Artemis, pursued by "wild hunter Orion" until Zeus changed them all into stars. (161)
  • Orion seen by Odysseus (248)
  • Myth told at length (201-4); interpretations:
    • related to Zagreus, wild hunter of Crete; Minos, lover of Britomartis because Euryale d. of Minos.
    • Oinopion and Oineus with oinos; Hyreius and Hyria with hyron "beehive".
    • Interprets ourein as semen. Earth-born giant. (source Ap. 1.4.3) -could be pun.
    • Penalty of blinding suggests Orion violated his own mother. Cf. Antonius Liberalis 5.4; Hyginus, Fabulae 132. Aegypius; Lycurgus
    • Merope:Orion::Semele:Dionysus::Elara:Tityos (although otherwise born)
    • Side = "pomegranate" = Queen of the Underworld = Merope. Mother/wife figure.
    • Artemis's Arrows fatal: Horace 3.4.70
    • Opis = Artemis
    • Orion in Underworld claimed by "those who refused to accept the story of his metamorphosis into constellation."
  • Variants
    • Pursued only Pleione, not the other Pleiades (Pindar, fr.239)
    • Euryale, d. Minos (sch. Σ 486.0
    • Oineus. sch. ε 121, ach. Aen. 1.535
    • Merope w. of Oinopion sch. Nicander Theriaca 15
    • walks on sea: Hyg. 2.34
      • Kerenyi suggests Orion, as a giant, waded to Lemnos; unsourced.
    • Artemis sent forth scorpion; Aratus 638
    • Orion challenged Artemis to discus-throwing Apoll. 1.4.5.
    • Apollo tricked Artemis; Hyg. 2.34 (Kerenyi calls "unique";but most of these are.

Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:47, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Poetaster

For those with a taste for such things, I preserve here the link to a versicle contributed as a link:*LINK REMOVED*, a narrative poem by Michael J. Farrand. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:28, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Burkert

Walter Burkert notes that the hunter figure on cylinder seals, a precursor also, he asserts, of Heracles, "is generally identified as Ninurta or Ningirsu, the son of the storm god Enlil" (Burkert 1985:209) On the Minoan level, he has been dedicated to the Great Goddess of Crete. On the Classical level, he has become a threat to the reformed and Olympian Artemis and must be destroyed. His myth survives only in fragmentary episodes and references.

The reader would suppose that Burkert was saying something about Orion; he is not. The quotation, from Greek Religion (1985 is the date of the English translation) is about Heracles; it may, however, be useful in the context of the Mesopotamian origin of the constellation. The rest of this paragraph is original research, as far as I can see. While consistent with Graves, it is not his interpretation, which I will add soon. Septentrionalis PMAnderson

I have moved the closing quotation mark, formerly at the end of the paragraph; I assume this was a typo. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:40, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Ox-hide conception

Do any of ancient sources really point to the ox-hide being from a "bull", that is a male cow, rather than a "heifer", a female cow? Because the latter would make a lot more sense. Also, is there any reason to suppose that the gods would have conceived Orion by urinating rather than ejaculating, other than some possible 19th century bowdlerizing?--Pharos 23:54, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Same verb in Greek: ourein. The Latin is quod fecerant urinae in corium infudisse As to the cow's hide, I'm not sure. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:57, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Itaque quo facilius petitum impetraret, bovem immolasse et his pro epulis adposuisse. Bos is ambiguous, and this is the chief source; but remember the mother here is mother-earth. I think bull-hide is Kerenyi; but I could go for cattle-hide. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:26, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for checking the Roman original. I think some of the medieval sources said "heifer" (at least in translation), but cattle-hide is quite satisfactory.--Pharos 06:08, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
Yes, I am aware the word has more than one meaning, as many words do, but surely the meaning in this context is quite clear. This is after all an (albeit mythical) act of procreation, and it would be bizarre in the extreme if urination was supposed to be the means of this. Do any modern scholars actually support such a meaning? I am not of course arguing that we remove the possible etymological connection to "Orion", which is highly relevant regardless.--Pharos 06:08, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
I recall some of the modern sources as taking pains to reflect the ambiguity in Hyginus' text, which is genuine. None of the sources I have consulted have been Victorian. As far as I am concerned, this is the sort of thing the reader should be able to figure out for himself; but feel free to rephrase. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:50, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps I was wrong. Please see the etymological footnote on page 28 of this JSTOR article. Considering my ignorance of Greek, you'd probably be able to handle this better.--Pharos 21:19, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Clearly an argument that ourein is "urinate"; worth including, I think. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:38, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Natalis Comes

Are we sure that Comes doesn't include the "philosophical child" as well, because otherwise the account does seem rather similar to Maier and Pernety. Perhaps if your Latin is good enough, you could have a look at this online version, which has a topical index. Thanks.--Pharos 21:26, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Are you sure you have the right volume? The inex on the left has an entry for the daughters of Orion, which is the story from Liberalis linked to under relationships. (I find trying to read the text very difficult, because it insists on displaying at 52%, but I'll give it another try.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:58, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm fairly certain it's the right text. See here. If you're looking at page 51, you should be able to see it right here. It's possible I suppose the Orion origin myth is just not in the index for whatever reason.--Pharos 23:32, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
And if you still find it difficult to read, you can browse it by page or download the whole PDF from here (it's a bit of a process, though). Or I could just e-mail it to you if you want (it's 73.6 MB).--Pharos 00:00, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
OK, I've found the section; it's on pages 457-459. Just click on "Texte Seul" at the top if you're having trouble making it out. Hope that's good for you.--Pharos 01:21, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
The internet is not behaving for me; but I've laid hands on a translation (which says "bull", btw.; is the citation of Euphorion in Greek or Latin?) in which the section on Orion is Book VIII, chapter 13. If this is the same text, the answer is no. First the myth, with some ancient sources not yet cited; then the storm interpretation, then a paragraph of morals (terrible things will happen if you act unlawfully; arrogance is both distasteful and despicable to the immortal gods. Credit and prestige should go to God alone.) Add the moralizing if you like, the source is Natale Conti’s Mythologiae, VIII, 13 translated and annotated by John Mulryan and Steven Brown; Arizona Center for Medieval and Renaissance Studies, 2006. Vol II, p. 755. ISBN 9780866983617 I'll be adding some of the sources. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:32, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
Great. That's the same section I was looking at. Euphorion is quoted in Greek. I've managed to extract a three-page PDF (this type of document manipulation is a bit new to me) of this too which might be easier to e-mail.--Pharos 01:38, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
Got it finally; the text looks like βοὸς βύρσαν/ pellem mactati bovis, so Comes thinks it's a bull. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:01, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Also: "Not, as some have thought, from urine, but from sperm..", so it certainly isn't Victorian. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:08, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

What would you say to using Natalis as a principal source for the article, like Graves or Kerenyi? His translators think him no less reliable; in fact for us more so; he doesn't quote his sources, he copies them. I'd like to include that list of dogs.

Yes, we'd have to steer around his interpretation; but that's equally true of Graves. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:10, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Hmm... my Latin is almost nil, and I haven't had a chance to take out the English translation. Where's the list of dogs (certainly sounds interesting)? Anything that's quoted from an ancient source in Natalis should certainly be doable, I'm just not sure about stuff that isn't attested in ancient sources being in the 'Legends' section though (I can't really read it myself, so I'd have to be enlightened on what is there anyway)—but that doesn't mean we can't include it somewhere else if it's especially interesting.--Pharos 21:47, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
The list of names, and Orion's sister Candiope, are at the end of p 457 in the online edition; I am not able to verify either anywhere else. If I recall correctly, the translators suggest that he compiled both from various sources, but they have no note for either. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:35, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Interesting. But please mention the translators' comments in the footnote.--Pharos 02:16, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
Not their comments; their interpretations of Comes' Latin. I hope the footnore is clearer than I seem to have been here. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:33, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Plan for this article

I redesigned this article to say exactly what the ancient sources say, and then modern interpretations. This was a reaction, possibly an overreaction, to this state of the article, which is a polemic for Kerenyi's interpretation. Most of the complaints by other editors above are to the old version. But this is why I left the ambiguity of ourein in the text. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:13, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Theranos's edits

I have reverted these; my reasons follow:

I put these here for discussion; if anyone agrees with Theranos, do note it here. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:28, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

The name of Oenopion's daughter is variously given as Merope, Maerope, Maero and Aero. The last from the Parthenius MS. appears to be simply a corruption of Maero (the suffix -opê = face, being dropped in this form -- not uncommon with such names). Re; the sacrifice. A single bull is traditionally offered a god (as in this story of the three), whereas a heifer is for a goddess. Therefore in the context we can safely assume its a bull. The point of the Taurus connection was that Orion was for the Greeks first and foremost the constellation -- the myths are closely interconnect with this. I still think the Parthenius digression is a bit superfluous to an Orion article. Yes, Vatican Mythographer & Servius are best in the footnotes. Perhaps rearranged slightly to indicate which refers to which. The sentence as it stood were a little awkward. But they were just a few minor edits. Otherwise the article is excellent. Surely one of the best in Wikipedia's mythology series. --Theranos 19:02, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
Thank you; have you said that at FAC? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:47, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Several secondary sources, principally, Kerenyi, see an underlying myth independent of the constellation; but please add citations to the section on Modern interpretations.Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:53, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
  • I believe Minos is the Vatican mythographer, but cannot check Fontenrose now; can you tell? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:53, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
I have read Servius and he makes no reference to Minos, so I assume that variant comes from the Vatican Mythographer, who I understand is a rather suspect source for myth. Do you know if the Latin text of this is online? --Theranos 09:40, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
BTW Maerope (or more properly Mairopê) is a dialect variant of the name Meropê. The masculine form of the name, Merops, similarly occurs as Mairops. --Theranos 19:42, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
Please cite your source for this claim; which dialect? the MSS of Parthenius, according to both editions cited, give 'Αιρω Haero; this has been variously emended, and Maero is one of the proposed emendations. I really fail to see how Μεροπὴ and Μαίρω (an i stem like Sappho?) can possibly be the same word. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:47, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
The Smith Dictionary of Classical Biography & Mythology lists both variants but does not specify which dialect -- presumably Mairope is the Aeolic form. The usual etymology of the name is marmairô (also marmeirô), "to sparkle", which is more readily recognisable in the name Maira, a poetic for Sirius, the dog-star of Orion's neighbour Canis Major. Another star, in the Pleiad group, is is likewise named Mairope/Merope "she with sparkling face." See the LSJ lexicon entries [1] and [2]. The Merope form might simply be a play on words -- merops is the bee-eater bird. Something similar occurs with Orion's daughters Koronides, properly comets, lit. "the curving ones", but also interpreted as "crows". --Theranos 09:37, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
The existence of a root mair-; from IE *mary- (with consonantal y which disappears in Greek, and compensatory lengthening) is not in question; what I doubt and request a source for is that Merope, with no a, can derive from it. Coronis has two meanings; outside of the fantasies of the mythographers, so what? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:28, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
You could similarly ask why the word merops becomes eirops in the Boeotian dialect [3]. I don't know enough about Greek dialects to offer an opinion on the subject. However the main point was that the two forms of the name Merope / Maerope, and similarly of its masculine equivalent Merops / Maerops (father of Phaethon) both occur in ancient texts. As I mentioned before, the Smith dictionary attests both forms occuring amongst its list of sources. --Theranos 11:52, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
I don't demand an explanation; I do request evidence for the existence in Greek of Maerops and Maerope, which I have never seen, and (more important) a source that Maero and Merope are the same word. The only relevance of the etymological problem is to show that the difference is not (as it might appear) trivial. In mediaeval Latin, it would be a trivial difference, as would Moerops; but I judge that that is off-topic. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:43, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Bold, Revert, Discuss

General Note: I hold to the Bold, revert, discuss pattern of editing here. Please be bold until reverted, as I will be, and then discuss, as here. I have been persuaded by some of this discussion, I think Theranos has been by other pieces; that's how it should be. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 13:42, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Lots of things go on concerning names and there are debates as to what is the real meaning(s) of a name and what are the acquired meanings (ie Catherine originally being a form of Hekate rather than meaning pure or lugaidh acquiring the meaning "famous warrior", which it doesn't technically have, because of it is often anglicized as Louis). There are also meanings acquired as the result of punning and blasphemizing (making fun of the name or title of one's enemy) - which was a common practice. Whatever source you quote will be guessing. But it is probably best, of one is to have a section on name origins to put the most likely one's first and to try to say where you got the idea from.

The "maira" argument doesn't wash because you are comparing Greek and Scottish - the word Metis means something completely different in Greek (wise), Old French (mixed blood) and Canadian. The Scottish maira and the greek maira/maera seem to share nothing but a similar spelling - the latter, along with marmairo/marmairein, being a niece ancestor to the english word "marble". Maira/Maera seems to be a short form of marmara (the female form of marmaros) and the name of a sea, rather than of Merope.

Still trying to figure this out between dizzy spells but figure that "meros ops" (eyes turned, face turned) is probably the original, with the debate over whether the eyes are turned towards or away from the sun or represent stars or planets themselves (odins eyes are said to represent the sun and moon and daisy the "eye" is believed to be the sun). Then came (mar)mairo ops (sparkling face) - which lead to the concept of sparkling words, since the mouth is part of the face. I think that "bee eater" is probably a red herring and that the merops was just the name given the bird we call the "bee eater" or the bienenspecht because of its sparkling feathers - or possibly because someone credited the bird's eating of bees for its appearance of character. Then again, I could have a different theory tomorrow.

- / - maira, maera (greek)=the sparkler, the glistener, faithful hound of icarius, name of the dog star; Maira is also the arabic word for "moon." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.77.37.48 (talk) 19:35, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Armenian mythology

File:Kingcommunion.jpg
The Armenian king in communion joined hands with Heracles, symbol represented with a man with the upraised club. Stella from the Nemrut pantheon.

This is a fascinating image; but the description requires a source; and I think it may be off-topic for this article, which is about the myth named Orion. This, like the Burkert quotation above, belongs in an article on the Middle Eastern mythology of the constellation, which I am not qualified to write. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:01, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

I wonder if the figure is misidentified. The lion-skin cape (barely noticeable) & club would normally suggest a Hercules. The piece probably dates from the Imperial Roman period of Armenian history.
BTW Does Orion actually appear in classical art? The Beazley Archive at least produces no results - although the many "huntsman" figures on pottery are impossible to identify. E.g. a hunter + dog figure could be an Orion, but equally a Pandareus, Cephalus or Hippolytus, or just a generic hunter for that matter. Furthermore the Artemis & Orion story seems to be superceded by Artemis, Apollo & Tityus in art, and the Eos & Orion story from Homer becomes displaced by the Cephalus version in Athenian art. But how about constellation representations of Orion in Roman art? --Theranos 19:50, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
The relief is from Mount Nemrut, and is Hellenistic. I couldn't find any reliable source that identifies it with Orion (I agree the lion-skin seems like quite a tip-off to Hercules). I've done searches of articles on classical art, and I couldn't find any that are really definitively tied to Orion. The clearest claim is John Beazley and Humfry Payne's identification of a pottery fragment at Naucratis, apparently on the basis of the figure being a hunter with a club, which they also compare to some other examples in classical art (see below). There's a photograph, too, which you can see at JSTOR (I haven't uploaded it because it may still be copyrighted). The temple at Thermon mentioned here is somewhat well-known; I believe the hunter they refer to is probably the upper-right image here.--Pharos 20:42, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
48. P1. XVI, 4. No number. Cup. Inside, Orion. A hunter walking home with a club in his right hand and his bag-a hare and a fox-over his left shoulder. To the right of the figure is something black which may be part of another hare. To complete the figure compare the Tlesonian lip-cup London B 421 (C'.Tr.B.31. P1.ll, 2), the Amasian oinochoe London B 52 (Rev.arch. 1912, ii, p. 367), and, earlier, the metope of the Temple of Apollo at Thermon (A.D. 2, P1.51, 2). The club makes it likely that the man is Orion, whose club was famous. Odysseus found him hunting with a club in Hades (Odyssey 11, 575) :-
[Greek text removed]
Aratus says that Orion was believed to have assaulted Artemis while hunting with a club in Chios (Phnen. 631) :
[Greek test removed]
Middle of the sixth century. The style is so like that of No. 47 that the two cups may be by the same hand.
The cup was not a normal little-master cup; the foot (part of the stem remains) was probably of Siana shape.
If you look up the foot you see that the bottom of the bowl is decorated in red with two circles and a dot. The only parallels we know to this in cups are given by the deep cup Vatican 343 (Albizzati, P1. 38) and the Timenor cup Louvre Cd 1778 (Hoppin, B. f.p. 363).
The difference from Heracles is the prey, I expect; someone discussed Orion as being equipped with a bag for hares; but I don't see that in the Armenian image. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:02, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
User:Vonones got it from this website. It doesn't seem to have a search engine. Good luck. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:17, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
Is the imagery of Orion with the sword (Ps-Eratosthenes & Hyginus) a later development, replacing the club? Unless Hesiod's Chrysaor "Golden Sword" husband of the Hesperis Erythia "Red Sunset" is perhaps Orion. The Poseidon & Medusa versus Poseidon & Euryale (by the Hesiodic Astronomica poet) parentage suggests a connection. This earth C5th BC altar metope from Gela pairs a scene of the birth of Chrysaor, with a similar (or the same figure?) being carried off by the dawn-goddess Eos (just as Orion was in the Odyssey). [4] --Theranos 17:36, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
Well Chrysaor ought to have a sword; the usual interpretation of the name is Goldensword. Orion has a club in the Underworld section of the Odyssey IIRC; but clearly we need to go back to the sources and do iconography. Thanks. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:25, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
The truth behind this seems to be that the god Hayk was identified with Orion by Hellenistic Armenians. I'm not sure this statue is actually of Hayk, though—the note Vonones has put on Septentrionalis's talk page refers to Vahagn, a separate Armenian god who was actually identified with Heracles.--Pharos 21:40, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, I meant to add this; the note is
  • Source: Drei Jahrtausende Armenien, Burchard Brentjes, Verlag Koehler and Ameland, Leipzig, 1973 --Vonones 21:05, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Caption: Armenian King Mithridates of Commagene under the patronage of the Sky/War God Vahagn (associated with Orion). Relief from Hierothesion of Arsameia, 69-34 BC. --Vonones 21:08, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
I'll check it out, but in either case it probably belongs in the constellation rather than here. Vonones is clearly not writing of something he's seen, but relaying his friend with a website. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:28, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
Almost identical scene from his father's tomb
I think there is something here that may belong in the article, but not the above image. Mithridates I Callinicus, who is the king depicted in the above image, does not actually seem to have any close connection to Armenian culture, and this scene is almost identical to the one of his son at Nemrut (depicted at the right) which appears to depict the figure labeled "Herakles-Artagnes" (fortunately for archaeologists, the statues at Nemrut actually all been labeled with Greek and Persian names). The more scholarly sources on the subject of the Armenian god Hayk seem to point most directly to the Old Armenian Bible's translation of "Orion" for the constellation, and give the similarity between the god Orion and the god Hayk as the reason for this translation. There is a suggestion that this reflects a broader identification, but little detail on this point. See this site and also pg. 32 of Hackiyan's The Heritage of Armenian Literature (available in limited preview on Google Books): By virtue of his being a valiant prince of fine stature "strong and accurate in drawing the bow," and "a skillful archer," Hayak became a couunterpart of the Greek Orion, perhaps because, like Orion, Hayk has fine features and was a night hunter. No ancient records documenting Hayk's apotheosis into a constellation survive, but in two instances in the Greek Bible that mention Orion, the fifth-century Armenian translators have replaced Orion with Hayk.--Pharos 22:44, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Suggestion for new article section

I would like to get some feedback on a new article section (perhaps "Context of the myth"), to deal with some contextual elements that are bit too general and "obvious" in nature to be dealt with under "Modern interpretations" or the other sections. Specifically, I would propose a few brief paragraphs on (1) the general state of preservation of the myth, and the nature of its representation in ancient literature and art, (2) the local connections of the myth in Boertia and possibly Chios, including the "tomb" at Tanagra, and (3) the relevance of astronomy and simple constellation arrangements in shaping the myth. This would involve shifting around some material from other sections, as well as the incorporation of some stuff that I've been holding a bit in reserve.--Pharos 02:39, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Go for it; my only request is that we keep Wikipedia's voice for things that are actually consensus (like Side as a constellation myth, and even there there's controversy). Good luck finding sources on the state of preservation. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:47, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
Is Rose the source for "Most accounts of religious rites associated with the Orion myth come from the cities of Boeotia."? I agree that he is likely to mean heroic cult rather than worship; but are you overreading? All I see that Orion was worshipped in Boeotia, without any implication about, say, the islands.
I have tweaked, partly to avoid repetion, but I do like this section. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:38, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
Rose isn't particularly the source for that—I would say Bowra supports it more, and also some commentary on Corinna's audience yet to be added, but it's more of a general statement. I only mentioned "the cities" because a couple of cities are mentioned in particular. But is you think it's too specific (either on "cities" or on cult vs. worship—by the way, what term would cover both?), then please adjust it to your reading of the sources.--Pharos 04:42, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
I'll look up Bowra; but it just seemed a bit specific for Rose's brief sentence alone. Since it isn't based on Rose alone, no problem. Divine cult v. hero-cult is a real problem, especially if the ancient evidence isn't clear. Feel free to put in any inspiration that comes to you. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:32, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
How about "The cities of Tanagra and Thebes [or wherever it was] in Boeotia sacrificed to Orion."? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:13, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
I am quite satisfied with your recent changes on this point.--Pharos 01:01, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Sorry to disassemble this, but the FAC discussions suggested that this would be better under its various subtopics. I hope the second paragraph in the lead does the job you intended for this.

I don't see the Temple of Orion in the listed source, btw (page number?); and I'm not sure I want to reply on a century-old work of general reference for archaeology anyway. Temples for heroes are unlikely anyway. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:05, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

I have removed
In ancient times, there was a temple of Orion behind where Messina Cathedral stands today.<:ref>Sladen, Douglas Brooke Wheelton (1907). Sicily, the New Winter Resort: An Encyclopaedia of Sicily. New York: E. P. Dutton.</ref>
since I cannot confirm the claim, and suspect it to be a confusion with the Temple of Poseidon built by Orion. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:43, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Sorry about that—it's on page 384. As you can see, it's in the context of a long description of various temples in Messina, and the location described for it is rather specific, so it doesn't seem likely to come from some obscure literary error. I would source it to some more modern description of the ancient temples of Messina, but I just couldn't find one anywhere. Actually, if you read Jacob Bryant, you will find a very colorful "confusion with the Temple of Poseidon" as you describe—complete with a veritable mighty tower on the promontory (and apparently a somewhat lesser one on Delos too). But I give no credibility to that account (largely based on Biblical analogies) at all.--Pharos 05:41, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Got it, here. Sladen has a knack for remarkably murky sentences, doesn't he? The Renaissance historian and mathematician Francesco Maurolico, who came from Messina, identified the remains of a temple of Orion near the present Messina Cathedral, under Hero-Cult? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:39, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Is Maurolico mentioned in Sladen? Am I missing it somehow, or did you give the wrong link? The only thing I see on that page is a temple of Orion that was taller than Zancle, near the demolished church of S. Giacomo, where to-day stands the house of Cav. Ruggero Anzà at the back of the cathedral.--Pharos 19:58, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Two sentences before; spelled Maurolyco. I suppose I may be jumping to the conclusion that these are all Maurolico's identifications. He designed the fountain, btw: See Edward J. Olszewski's review of The Noble Savage, Satyrs and Satyr Families in Renaissance Art. by Lynn Frier Kaufmann and Civic Sculpture in the Renaissance, Montorsoli's Fountains at Messina. by Sheila ffolliott Sixteenth Century Journal, Vol. 15, No. 4. (Winter, 1984), pp. 527-528.
You're probably right. The source he's likely using is Compendio delle cose di Sicilia (which I believe was published in 1560), which Sladen mentions on pg. 376 in his brief biographical sketch of Maurolico.--Pharos 21:30, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Hmm... it appears Sladen actually read the Italian translation of the Latin work Sicanicarum rerum compendium (1562).--Pharos 01:05, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Roman calendar "Feast of Orion"

Well, was there one? Voltaire certainly thought there was, on the fifth day before the Ides of May, i.e. May 11 (he also mentions "Orion" on a dolphin, an apparent error). This website also thinks so. These both seem to come from Fasti, which I'm aware is our primary source for minor Roman festivals, but is everything in it actually connected to one festival or another? Is there some better source we could consult for this? Is it relevant that this would seem to overlap in date with the Feast of the Lemures? (By the way, another source—which does not comment on any festival—links this date to the setting of the star Betelgeuse)--Pharos 01:35, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Some quick comments.
  • There are actual surviving Roman Fasti, as well as Ovid's poem. Voltaire may not have had access to them. The source I cite reprinted several of them, as appendices to Ovid, and they did not show a festival, merely the astronomical phenomenon. The Romans did not have a festival every day of the year, and Ovid works around this.
    • I think Voltaire is having some good old-fashioned fun with priestcraft, using Ovid and his memory alone; don't you?
  • The other website is wrong about the Lemuria; they were (like most Roman multi-day festivals) only on odd days: the 9th, 11th, and 13th (i.e. the 7th, 5th and 3rd before the Ides of May); I suspect he is taking Ovid too literally.
  • No, as suggested, I don't think everything in Ovid is linked to a festival, literally. In this case, I find an actual festival unlikely, because it is linked to the setting of Orion; the Roman calendar was not fixed with respect to the stars before 45 BC.
    • If you can find a scholarly source that says otherwise, fine.
  • The fact that the astronomical event fell on the Lemuria is interesting, but I would bet on coincidence. Orion's ties to the Underworld are less than most heroes'.
  • Betelguese is Orion's shoulder, so it should be in conjunction with the Sun the same time as the rest of the constellation; but this was on May 11 two thousand years ago; the precession of the equinoxes should have moved it to June by now.
But feel free to add tags or edit if you disagree. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:18, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, I had thought this was probably just Voltaire's error, but it seemed like something that ought to be checked on just in case. The source that I have pointing specifically to Betelgeuse (page 162 of the 1878 A Dictionary of Greek and Roman Antiquities) seems to be taking precession into account and calculating for the Rome of the time (there is astronomical software that could confirm or correct this calculation, I'm sure). I still have one question, though: in these "normal" Fasti, is May 11 the only date they find of note with respect to Orion (because that source mentions several dates of such significance on the calendar)?--Pharos 00:18, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
I'll get back to you; but that's what I recall. I suppose it makes sense that Rigel should be different than Betelgeuse. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:41, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

More Art

I won't have time to do much about this either; but the following may be useful, especially if you can find more about the objets, an upload (which I can't do) or a link:

  1. Orion hunting with Artemis and Apollo
    • drawing
    • school of Fantainebleau
    • Rennes Musee des Beaux-Arts
  2. Diana chasing Orion
  3. death of Orion, killed by Artemis with a crescent on her forehead.

from Mercedes Rochelle, Mythological and Classical World Art Index, ISBN 089950566X Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:42, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Skinner

On second thought, I bring this sentence, which was sourced to Marilyn Skinner's paper (linked to in Corinna) here:

The poetess Corinna of Tanagra notably treated the traditions of Orion and characters of related myths in the context of this Boetian tradition in writing for a local audience,

This doesn't say much; and I dislike poetess. Skinner does say that Corinna's use of Orion's fifty sons, the result of the rape of various nymphs shows that she has a patriarchal sensibility. While interesting, it doesn't fit here, and would be a lone critical comment, and thus undue weight, inCorinna as it now stands. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:42, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

You'll excuse my hackmanship in writing this—I've accumulated a large number of sources, and the urge to tick them off of the little tabs on my browser has led to some hasty sentences. As for "poetess"—no I would never use that descriptor for a modern poet—it just seemed it would be interesting to readers that she was female, but it's really not that important. The main point I was trying to communicate was just, "If you're interested in the perspective of a writer who was actually connected to the Boeotian Orion cult, then you can turn to Corinna." I realize this is somewhat of a secondary point in Skinner's article—the main one as you say being that one should be careful in calling her a woman's author—but I think the article does address the circumstance of her dealing with Orion and related myths from a distinct local perspective.--Pharos 06:11, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
That's a point. Let's say it; I've put in the Boeotian school, which includes Corinna as well as Hesiod; is Orion in Pindar? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:22, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Footnote to Euphorion

The sources for the ed. cited are [Wilhelm]] Dindorf [Scholia Graeca in Homeri Iliadem : ex codicibus aucta et emendata] Oxford 1875, II, 171 l.7-20) quoting texts ed. Flach Leizig 1880 pp. 749-50) and by Walz (Stuttgart 1832 p.490). I see there are also fragments (Dindorf; Carmina Homeri 1855 p.295 13-15, in which Orion attacks "sheaf-bearing" Upis, not Artemis, and a scholion to Aratus 324 (Maass Berlin 1958, p.406 16-20) "nor do the new-born children seek out enormous (pelorios} Orion" (because he's so visible). All this is pp. 253-6; de Cuenca also says the attack on Artemis is the most common, p.254. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:52, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Copyeditor needed

The current FAC for Orion (mythology) recommends a copy-edit. I really cannot do this myself; I'm too close to the article to see it clearly. Also, the FAC has brought out some very useful additions to the article, and I may be too respectful of my helpful colleague's prose.

What this article needs is a detailed readthrough, to see whether it is clear and grammatical, and in compliance with the MOS. Content issues, which have not arisen, I hope I can deal with myself. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:21, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Suggestions from a Mathematician

Hi. My name is Jim, and I came to this article in a response to a request for a copy-editor on the Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Mathematics page. Septentrionalis felt that it would be helpful to get the perspective of a non-specialist. I'm a postdoc in mathematics, and everything I know about mythology I learned from reading Edith Hamilton in sixth grade. (Large portions have since been forgotten.)

I'm afraid that I haven't done a very good job as a copy editor. Instead, I have developed a sort of critique of this article from a non-specialist point of view. I apologize if this is unhelpful.

An average person coming to this article will want an answer to the following question: "What is the myth of Orion?" From my point of view, Greek mythology is essentially a collection of interesting stories, and the most likely reason that I would visit this article would be to learn the story of Orion. (Speaking of which, I think it would be reasonable to put a link to this article at the top of the article on the Orion constellation, and vice-versa.)

Presumably, this article will also be read by a large number of mythology specialists, who would be much more interested than I am in the different versions of the story, which writers are responsible for the existing versions, literary interpretations of the story, and so forth. Ideally, the article would cater to both of these audiences. The usual solution is to direct the first few sections toward a general audience, and the remainder of the article toward specialists.

I do not think that this article will be very informative for the average reader. Here's why:

Problem 1

The article has an early and repeated emphasis on the written sources of the myth, as opposed to the content of the myth. This begins in the first paragraph of the introduction, and continues in the "Transmission" and "Legends" sections.

Specifically, the "Legends" section would be much more interesting to read if it were organized chronologically (as events in Orion's life) instead of by source.

  • The fundamental problem is that there is no one story. There are at least two different versions of Orion's birth; there are three major versions of his death. It is not clear even that all the incidents listed belong in the same story. I can see what a synthesized version would look like - and Graves tells one; but it would be synthesis. But the article should say so. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:00, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Problem 2

The summary of the myth of Orion in the "Legends" section -- for me the most critical part of the article -- is very difficult to read. Consider the following paragraph:

Orion was the son of Poseidon and Euryale, daughter of Minos. He could walk on the waves, and came to Chios, where he got drunk and attacked Merope, daughter of Oenopion, who blinded him and drove him out. He then came to Lemnos, where Hephaestus told Cedalion, Hephaestus' servant, to guide him to the uttermost East, where Helios healed him; Orion carried Cedalion around on his shoulders. Orion then returned to punish Oenopion, but he hid away underground. Orion then went to Crete and hunted with Artemis and Leto; he threatened to kill every beast on Earth. Earth objected, and sent a giant scorpion to kill him instead. After his death, Zeus placed Orion (and the Scorpion[6]) among the constellations.

The problem with this paragraph is the large number of unexplained proper nouns. Here is the process I had to go through to read this paragraph:

1. I know Poseidon is a sea god, but who is Euryale? (Click on link.) Ah, one of the gorgons.

2. What is Chios? (Type Chios into search bar.) Ah, an island.

3. It says that Merope is the daughter of Oenopion, but who is Oenopion? (Click on link.) Oh, the king of Chios.

4. Where is Lemnos? (Click on link.) Ah, another island.

5. I happen to have heard of Haphaestus, but I have no idea why he would be living on Lemnos. I seem to recall that Haphaestus is blind . . . does this play a role in his decision to help cure Orion's blindness?

6. Who is Helios? Sounds like he has something to do with the sun. (Click on link.) Ah, he is the sun. Neat.

And so forth. Why not say "the island of Chios"? Or "Euryale the gorgon"? There are similar problems throughout the article. (In the introduction alone, I had to click on "Boeotia" and "aetiological". The latter proved interesting, but the former could have been avoided by simply saying "the region of Boetia".)

  • Thank you; this is very useful. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:00, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
    • I've broken out Homer and Hesiod, since they were the chief sources in antiquity, and Hesiod actually contains the incidents we've defined as chief.

Conclusion

What this article needs is a clear presentation of the Orion myth near the beginning. This should include some discussion of variations (such as the disagreement over whether Artemis killed Orion herself or summoned a scorpion), but should above all strive to be an interesting narrative. In addition, careful attention must be paid to the first appearance of each proper noun, and whether the average reader would have any clue as to what it refers to.

When writing mathematics for a general audience, it often helps me to imagine the reader as a bright high-school student who is curious about the subject but sorely lacking in background knowledge. Only after you have addressed that audience should you move on to material directed at specialists. Jim 05:32, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

  • Thank you very much; I can answer your questions here, I think; but clearly the article has not done so. (Which is very valuable to know.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:52, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Boccaccio

Giovanni Boccaccio has a chapter on Orion in his Genealogia deorum gentilium, which you can find starting on page 27 of this PDF. Again, like with Comes, my Latin only extends to the ability to see there's something interesting here, and some variants I think we haven't covered.--Pharos 20:19, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

  • Good; looks like a source on Candiope. When I get back from vacation, I'll look for an annotated editon. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:22, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
Well, it also shouldn't be forgotten that in some places anyway, "Candiope" seems to be just an alternate name of "Merope", for example in the Bach opera (in the opera, she also has a sister, "Argia", but that may just be artistic license). The Lexicon Universale also has a bit about Candiope and incest with her brother; see also here. There are also apparently stories of an incestuous Oenopion, but I couldn't find any decent sources for this other than literary criticism of T.S. Eliot.--Pharos 04:19, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Subterranean palace

A number of popular works speak of a subterranean palace associated with Orion and Hephaestus, most prominently Horne's s:Orion, which I've prepared for Wikisource (it's in the first Canto). In Horne, as in the popular works (which may well draw from the poem), Orion builds the palace for Hephaestus. The only basis of this I could find in classical writing is in Apollodorus 1.4.4, but here it is Hephaestus who builds the palace. And the wording is apparently ambiguous, because different translators differ on whether it has been built for Orion, or rather for Oenopion.--Pharos 22:28, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

There are references that are Wikilinked with no other information - cannot use Wikipedia as reference - someone needs to remove them

Someone needs to remove these as Wikipedia is not to be used as a reference. Sincerely, Mattisse 22:18, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

There are no instances in this article where Wikipedia has been used as a reference. If a reference happens to link to an article on a books or an author, it simply means that that book is being cited.--Pharos 00:15, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
What I am referring to are, for example <ref>[[Antoninus Liberalis]] 25</ref> There is no other mention of this that I can find except the wikilink. It is not listed under References. I will ask the FAR committee to clarify as I was asked to help with this article for Featured Article status. That is my only interest. Sincerely, Mattisse 01:04, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
This means that the reference for this is chapter 25 of Antoninus Liberalis's book. This is just the method that Septentrionalis (who researched most of the article) has used in referencing. Perhaps there is a better format for this type of citation, but it's pretty clear I think what text is being cited for this reference. Also, for whatever reason, Sept decided to include only certain "major" sources consulted under the 'References' heading (as opposed to the 'Notes' heading).--Pharos 01:22, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
You need to read WP:CITE, WP:V, WP:RS etc. This article has been submitted for FA status. This kind of referencing will not help it. Perhaps you do not care, and so be it. I am not the person who submitted it and I am neutral as to whether it is approved or not. I have done what I can so I will bow out now. Someone else can finish the job. Sincerely, Mattisse 12:46, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
This is the quite standard method of citing poems and classical texts, by book and chapter, paragraph, or line; one example of it is cited in WP:ATTFAQ. I have added the (redundant) information that the title of Liberalis' work is the Metamorrphoses and that 25 is a section number; Liberalis is a single book. When, as usual, the division is standard across editions, it is both customary and preferable to citing the page of a specific edition, which is useless to anyone who does not have access to that edition. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:49, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Mattisse, though, insofar as we should be careful to include both author and title for every work, even when it's somewhat redundant and cumbersome. I have suggested a formal clarification of how to cite traditional works at Wikipedia_talk:Citing_sources#Citing_traditional_works.--Pharos 20:14, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Compacted paragraphs

I see that the section on modern interpretations has been bundled into a small number of long paragraphs. I fail to understand why the specific choices here have been made.

For example, it began with passages on the astronomical interpretation of c.1895, continued with Rohde and Kerenyi, in chronological order. These three have nothing much to do with each other; and the present paragraph division consists of the astronomers, combined mechanically with Rohde and one of Kerenyi's books; for no obvious reason, his other book begins the next paragraph.

Why? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:31, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

This is just where experience comes in, and maybe I am wrong here. If the FAR people get interested in your article, they will start to get very specific about issues of paragraph (and sentence) length and variety. Usually they will not tolerate stubby paragraphs. Maybe they will make an exception for you. Sincerely, Mattisse 23:03, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
I'll leave them then; but do you genuinely think this clearer or better organized than it was before? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:49, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
I'll revert it back to the way you had it. Sincerely, Mattisse 00:52, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
That is really unnecessary; this is a collaborative effort. If I didn't value other opinions, I wouldn't have asked for them. Does that mean I have to agree with every word, or else have none? That is most unwiki. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:43, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

You have been singularly critical and unappreciative of the massive amount of work I put into your article. The only feedback I have received from you and your other editor who apparently WP:OWN the article has been unpleasant and snide. You have given me no indication that you approved of anything I did. I have every reason to believe you do not value my contributions and want the article reverted. Regards, Mattisse 11:30, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I think I fall somewhere along a middle position on this. The old version included some really stubby one-or-two-sentence paragraphs, and too many subsections, I think. The new version probably has a more manageable number of sections and paragraphs, but we might have to reorganize some of the paragraphs and one or two may require being re-split. Also, I think we might have the scope for one more top-level section. And so, progress marches on!--Pharos 21:08, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I have no position here; I asked a question because I was puzzled by the new paragraphs, and think the reader may be too. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:30, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
  • For reference, Mattise's copyedit is in this diff. I see other small flaws, such as the use of "heros" in the lead; clearly this will have to be reviewed carefully. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 13:59, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Another snide remark

Your last edit summary was another snide remark: "(See talk; it is uncollegial to insist on all or nothing.)" There has been no atmosphere of collegiality in your interactions or that of your fellow editor in interacting with me. There is every indication this article violates WP:OWN. There has been only snide criticism of my efforts. Where do you get the idea I am insisting on "all or nothing". You interpret my actions in the worst possible light. You had given me no reason to believe that you appreciated the copy edit and every reason to believe you preferred your version. Why do you violate AFD? Regards, Mattisse 11:54, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Just an unsolicited outside opinion, so feel free to ignore, but you seem to be overreacting. IPSOS (talk) 13:33, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
I agree with you IPSOS. I am overreacting. Copy editing is hard work and this one has been a particularly unrewarding job. But you are right. That is not an excuse. Thanks for your thoughts. Sincerely, Mattisse 15:27, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

2004

Removed - may put some back Stirling Newberry 07:52, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Bloody death and fertility are inescapably linked connotations for the many-seeded pomegranate with its dark red juice. Is the chambered pomegranate also a surrogate for the poppy's narcotic capsule? On a Mycenaean seal (illustrated in Joseph Campbell's Occidental Mythology, figure 19) the seated Goddess of the double-headed axe (the labrys) offers three poppy pods in her right hand and supports her breast with her left. She embodies both aspects of the dual goddess, life-giving and death-dealing at once. Is that why Persephone found the pomegranate waiting, when she sojourned in the dark realm?
Orion's link with the pomegranate is sufficiently clearly demonstrated in the article. The well-established pomegranate symbolism has been strengthened at Pomegranate. I have stripped the "goddess" sidetrack from the article: Mesopotamian, Syria, Anatolia and the Aegean pretty well covers the whole area relevant for the Orion figure. --Wetman 08:27, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
Enkidu, before he was entrapped and humanized through the erotic lure of a temple courtesan, offers a glimpse into the nature of primal Orion. "The whole of his body was hairy and his (uncut) locks were like a woman's or the hair of the goddess of grain. Moreover, he knew nothing of settled fields or human beings and was clothed (in skins) like a deity of flocks." Like the Titan, Enkidu was "tall in stature, towering up to the battlements over the wall," as his urban chroniclers described him. "Surely he was born in the mountains," the shepherds cried out, when they first saw him. But once Enkidu had been civilized, the animals fled from him. Now "he scattered the wolves, he chased away the lions" and the herders could lie down in peace, for Enkidu was now their watchman. The Sumerian Epic of Gilgamesh (we have it in a late Babylonian version) remained untranslated into Greek until modern times, and there was no direct knowledge of the Enkidu of the Gilgamesh story in the Achaean world, though pieces of tablet with fragments describing Enkidu's death have turned up at Megiddo in Canaan and at Emar on the upper Euphrates River in Syria. It wasn't a question of the figure of Enkidu influencing the myth of Orion. Both were survivals of a Neolithic Master of the Animals.

This is far too speculative, he hangs a long paragraph on one convergence, goes off for a long time on Enkidu, which should be in a link. Does not firm up the association with the neolithic hunt god, who would be Theos in any event, and therefore is probably another mythological archetype from later, imposed over the Sothic story. Stirling Newberry 07:56, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The idea of "the neolithic hunt god, who would be Theos" innocently reveals a state of ignorance: imagine a neolithic hunt god with the Indo-European name Theos. "This is far too speculative" gives an authoritative impression, but it's blarney. At any rate the Orion-Enkidu parallel is presented strongly in the article, now that I've returned the italicised text, the significance of which won't be lost on the reader with some basic grounding. Other material belongs at Enkidu. When I have time and patience I shall return to retrieve essential material concerning Orion, including the actual telling of the myth, overlooked by our confident editor when he too-boldly trashed this article. --Wetman 08:27, 29 July 2005 (UTC)--Wetman 08:27, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
Through his pomegranate union, the Neolithic nature of primitive Orion was consecrated to the Goddess. Once he had been brought into the civilized world, Orion was ready for his second episode: now Orion was prepared to stake a claim to Merope of Chios. He plunged into the Aegean and was soon well away from shore, when, looking back, he saw his two great hounds struggling in the waves. Turning back, he took them up, and thus he came ashore on Chios, with his great spear slung across his broad back and under each massive arm a hunting dog, the Great One and the Lesser One.
When he came ashore, Orion found that he was once again in a place called Hyrai, another bee-swarm. The two Hyrai may have functioned as two entrances to the netherworld, which would have enabled Orion to pass between Boeotia and Chios in a chthonic journey. In later Classical times, the "tomb" of Orion that was shown to visitors in Boeotia may have been the cave-entrance.
In the island of Chios, the "Merope" whom Orion sought seems to mean "honey-faced" in Greek, thus "eloquent," but surely at an earlier level her "face" was a bee-mask. Cretan bee-masked priestesses appear on Minoan seals. One of the mythographers recalled the tradition that "Merope" was the "bee-eater" in the old Minoan tongue, before the Hellenes ever came to the Aegean. The proto-Greek invaders did not bring the art of bee-keeping with them. Homer saw bees as wild, never tame, as when the Achaeans issued forth from their ship encampment "like buzzing swarms of bees that come out in relays from a hollow rock" (Iliad, book II). Bee-keeping was a Minoan craft, and the fermented honey-drink was the old Cretan intoxicant, older than wine. Long after Knossos fell, for two thousand years, the classical Greek tongue preserved "honey-intoxicated" as the phrase for "drunken."

But there are too many Meropes in mythic fragments. One Merope married Sisyphus. Another Merope and her sister Cleothera were the orphaned daughters of Trojan Pandarus. Yet another Merope was queen to Creophontes in Messenia, until "serial killer" Polyphontes murdered him and claimed Merope and her matriarchal throne. Still another Merope, also known as Periboea, the wife of Polybus at Corinth, adopted Oedipus.

This name Merope figures in too many isolated tales for "Merope" to be an individual. Instead the "Merope" must denote a position as priestess of the Goddess. But surely Merope the "bee-eater" is unlikely to be always a bee herself. Though there is a small Mediterranean bird called the Bee-Eater, which was known under that name to Roman naturalists Pliny and Aelian, this Bee-Eater is most likely to have been a She-Bear, a representative of Artemis. The goddess was pictured primitively with a she-bear's head herself, and the bear remained sacred to Artemis into classical times. At a festival called the Brauronia, pre-pubescent girls were dressed in honey-colored yellow robes and taught to perform a bear dance. Once they had briefly served Artemis in this way, they would be ready to be married. In later times, a Syriac Book of Medicine recommends that the eye of a bear, placed in a hive, makes the bees prosper. The bear's spirit apparently watches over the hive, and this was precisely the Merope's role among the Hyrai at Chios.


Such Bronze Age Aegean cult centers guided by priestesses dedicated to the Great Goddess were deeply threatening to the Hellene invaders and warranted close patriarchal supervision. Placed in charge of this Merope and her hive on Chios was Oinopion, the "wine-man," a son of Dionysus. Some say he came from Crete, others specify Lemnos or Naxos. Wine mixed with fermented honey, as at Chios, mediated between the sacred intoxicants of the old order and the new patriarchal Olympian one, and honey mixed with wine remained a suitable libation to propitiate both levels of divinity, as Jason and the Argonauts wisely showed when they first set foot ashore in the chthonic and dangerous land of Colchis.
Under the old regime that Orion embodies, Oinopion would have been the annual consort of the Merope, but at the time level of the Orion myths, he had become as a "father" to her instead, a guardian-sponsor. Though the late poets thus called him Merope's father, Oinopion betrayed his most unfatherlike jealousy and determination to preserve his position. When the Titan came ashore, stained with pomegranate blood, ready to offer himself as a candidate for the role of consort, Oinopion set Orion a challenging contest to justify his right. Since he was so famed as a hunter, Orion had to rid the island of all its dangerous wild beasts. There was an ironic shift of roles here, for the animal-master of the Neolithic had originally been the spirit-protector of the animals, similar to the untamed Enkidu, who released them from the hunters' traps and springes. At the Neolithic level, the Master of the Animals was their protector; the hunter had to propitiate him, so that he would release the animals from his care; only then could the hunt be successful. Orion, like primal Enkidu also the "offspring of the mountains," had been at one with the wild creatures until he achieved self-consciousness. Now the "awakened" Animal Master hunted them himself. There was further irony in Oinopion's demand, if the "bee-eater" were herself a bear. And in his heart the usurping Oinopion was unwilling to be bested, to resign, though no longer to be sacrificed in the archaic way, even though Orion might successfully master the ritual contests.
Evening after evening Orion brought in pelts of bear and lion, lynx and wolf, and piled them in the Hyrian palace-hive. But it was never enough. Even though the island was rendered secure from marauding beasts, wily Oinopion always claimed that there were still rumors of a wolf or a bear heard to be roaming the island's farthest mountain districts.

In the evenings Oinopion plied Orion with his wine. Wine, the civilized gift of Dionysus, has a wild other nature, as the toxic barren ivy. Wine worked potently on the Titan's own wild and earthy nature, and one night in darkness, after the household had all gone to their chambers, Orion, inflamed by wine, took the perhaps not-unwilling Merope, there in her palace-hive. Then, overcome, he slept.

While Orion lay in a stupor, Oinopion stole upon him and he put out Orion's eyes. With a shout, Oinopion called up the guards, and just as a hive of bees will cast out a giant hornet intruder, they cast Orion, blinded, down onto the seashore, where ocean and land come together.
For a long time, there the Hunter lay. When a Titan has been outwardly blinded, he may receive in compensation a gift of inner sight. So Orion needed no oracle, as some have claimed, to know that he must seek out the first light of Helios, just when his chariot rises from the easternmost rim of Oceanus, that the place to achieve this was the eastern edge of the possible world, which is also known as the land of Colchis. There the sun's first rays would restore his sight.
Meanwhile, how had Merope fared? In such mythic contests, the "prize" often favors the heroic contender, as Ariadne was to favor Theseus. Now this Merope of Chios was at the same time one of the seven Pleiades, the "sailing sisters." They were named in the old matriarchal way for their mother Pleione. Sometimes Atlas is said to be their father, and then they are called the "Atlantides." If Atlas is indeed the father of Orion too, then his daughters the Pleiades are Orion's half-sisters. No wonder then that Orion longed to cleave to this Merope, if they had indeed sprung from the same stock.
All Aegean sailors knew that the Pleiades mark out the season that is safe for venturing upon the sea. The season opens "when from the Bull, the Sun enters into the Twins at the rising of the Pleiades." Nowadays this falls in late May. The safe sailing is over "when the Sun enters the Scorpion, at the setting of the Pleiades," all according to the Roman Vitruvius, who was quoting the Greek astronomer Democritus. By a witty invention, Pindar made them the "Peleiades"- the flock of doves- but this was just a momentary trope.
But was this Merope at the same time one of the Heliades, the sisters of Phaeton and daughters of Helios, as Hyginus tells? That would have made her a doubly-fit guide to lead the sightless Orion through the seas to the house of the Sun.
Northwards from Chios Orion made his way, whether guided by his inner sight or led by the rising Merope and her sisters, once the late spring weather had safely settled. Within a day or so he came to the volcano isle of Lemnos, where Hephaistos maintains his forge. Orion descended to the underworld smithy in the island's fiery heart. Later the Lemnian cave would become famous for its mysteries, in which each initiate was united with his chthonic brother counterpart. Like them, Orion himself sought no product of Hephaistos' forge, neither armor nor cauldron nor tripod. Instead, from among the many apprentices in the cavernous smithy of Lady Hera's son, Orion took up one, Cedalion, for a guide and set the youth upon his shoulders. So together they sailed north and east, with Merope in her sailing aspect to guide them, through the narrows and the Propontis, into the wide Euxine Sea.
Far to the eastern shore, in Colchis at the uttermost end of the world, Helios, whose bright eye misses nothing on the earth nor in the sea, sleeps by night in the golden house of Aietes, until he is waked by Eos, the Dawn. There, when Dawn came lighting the east with rosy fingers, the first rays of sunlight struck Orion's face and look! his sight was restored. But at the first flush of dawn, Merope faded and failed. Thus of seven Pleiades who still guide Orion across the vault of night, only six are to be seen, if there should be even the least hint of rosy-fingered Dawn. Alexandrian poets liked to imagine that Merope hides her face in shame, for having married the mere mortal Sisyphus, king of Corinth, while all her Pleiad sisters were given to Olympic gods. But that worldly snobbery speaks more of the Hellenistic Age of Monarchies than of the age of myth.
Eos too is of the Titan lineage, and she was immediately smitten by the handsomest Titan of all. That daughter of Hyperion always has weaknesses for demi-gods with some Titan blood in their veins, and Eos longed to cast her bright thighs across his dark ones. There in the house of Helios Orion tarried all summer. Yet at each approach of Dawn, Orion paled and grew faint, his flesh growing transparent under her very touch.
Next, Orion returned to the island of Chios, burning for revenge on Oinopion. But it appears that he arrived in the winter season, when the Chians had pruned their vines to stubs. For we are told that the "wine-man" Oinopion lay secretly in an underground chamber prepared for him by Hephaistos, awaiting his annual renewal we can be sure, and Orion sought him up and down, but in vain.
Then, at the end of winter, Orion passed under the horizon to Crete. Crete was still the homeland of archaic pre-Greek goddess-centered cult.
The oldest of these aspects of the Goddess was as Mother of Mountains, who appears on Minoan seals with the demonic features of a Gorgon, accompanied by the double-axes of power and gripping divine snakes. Her terror-inspiring aspect was softened by calling her Britomartis, the "good virgin." Every element of the Classical myths that told of Britomartis served to reduce her, even literally to entrap her in nets (but only because she "wanted" to be entrapped): patriarchal writers even made her the "daughter" of Zeus, rather than his patroness when he was an infant in her cave, and they made her own tamed, "evolved" and cultured aspect, Artemis, responsible for granting Britomartis goddess status. But the ancient goddess never quite disappeared and remained on the coins of Cretan cities, as herself or as Diktynna, the goddess of Mount Dikte, Zeus' birthplace. As Diktynna, winged and now represented with a human face, she stood on her ancient mountain, and grasped an animal in each hand, in the guise of Potnia, the Mistress of animals. Later Greeks could only conceive of a mistress of animals as a huntress, but on the early seals she suckles griffons. Archaic representations of winged Artemis show that she evolved from Potnia theron, the Mistress of Animals.
There in Crete Orion had an obscure encounter with the death-dealing Scorpion, whose ascendency in the zodiac marks the downturn of the year. The scorpion is a natural symbol of death, of the darkness of night and the underworld generally. So it was perceived in Sumer, in Egypt, in the Book of Kings (12:11) and among Zoroastrians. The scorpion is a creature of the Triple Goddess too, under the death-bringing aspect of her death-and-life renewal cycle. One late mythmaker would have it that Hera (still at some level Mistress of the Animals) was incensed by a report of Apollo that related Orion's boast that he was master of all the wild creatures of the Aegean. Some myths would have Orion die of the scorpion's sting, to be brought back to life by the healer Aesclepias, who would then be struck down by Zeus' thunderbolt in retribution for his audacity.
Perhaps, though, the Scorpion simply refers to Orion's union and renewal with the Goddess. For the restored and completed Orion, earth-man of mountains from the distant Neolithic past, master of the animals, fortified with honey-drink, stained still with the Goddess's pomegranate, bursting with virile seed, now sought out Artemis herself, at Delos. Even though he was reunited in Crete with the Great Goddess, Orion fixed his resolve to conquer Artemis as her consort. And this was to be his undoing. When the Pleiades rose from the Sea of Crete at the end of winter, Orion made his way north to Delos, still accompanied by the faithful Dawn.
But Artemis, now that she has been reborn on Delos as an Olympian goddess, must strenuously reject her own old ways, the blood sacrifices and the sequence of ritually murdered consorts. Now that Olympian Artemis is twinned chastely with Apollo instead, she has no further need of consorts at all. Thus it is that, walking along the coast of Delos, the twin Olympians spy at a great distance the giant head of the swimmer, no more than a black speck in the dazzling sun-path on the sea.
"Look!" cries Apollo. "There is the false Candaeon, who has seduced your chaste priestess in the Hyperborean north." Artemis does not recognize this Boeotian nickname for Orion, and she has drawn her bow and transfixed him with three arrows before she realizes her error. So Orion is safely banished to the skies, where, indeed, perhaps he had always been.

More stuff which is too much a mixture of the story, some connections and a whole ton of speculation based on locations without ordering correctly. It's also POV style. Leaving it here and sorting through material a bit at a time.

I took out the reference to Orion being a Titan at the beginning. According to one of the birth stories listed here his father was Posiedon, so he was not a titan.

Oh, so he was "not a titan" then... Frankly, I always think editing at Wikipedia is better if one knows something about the subject. The products of American High Schools all seem to have majored in Self-Confidence... --Wetman 05:17, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  1. ^ And Catasterismi, 30.
  2. ^ Kerenyi 1976, p. 42)
  3. ^ Scholia on Iliad18.487.
  4. ^ Compare the tale of Baucis and Philemon.
  5. ^ Servius on Aeneid 1.539; Ovid, Fasti 5.537ff; Hyginus, Poetic Astronomy 2.34, noted in Graves 1960 41.f.3.
  6. ^ Scorpion is the type of creature, Greek σκορπίος, not a proper name. The constellation is called Scorpius in astronomy; colloquially, Scorpio, like the related astrological sign — both are Latin forms of the Greek word. Cicero used Nepa, the older Latin word for scorpion.
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