Talk:Oleksandr Syrskyi

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Nickname[edit]

We should add what Ukrainian soldiers call him "the butcher of Bakhmut". It should say something like, "Oleksander Syrski, also known as the butcher of bakhmut". [1][2][3]

The page already mention about people criticizing him for the defense of Bakhmut, but if you want to elaborate on page, please do (this is well sourced). To be fair though, that was all the responsibility of Zelensky. Right now he replays the same or worse under Avdiivka where best Ukrainian forces are already surrounded. Perhaps they will have to surrender, just as the defenders of Mariupol, yet another highly doubtful sacrifice by Zelensky. My very best wishes (talk) 03:19, 16 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
He was also nicknamed "General 200" in reference to the term Cargo 200 due to tactics which resulted heavy Ukrainian casualties Salfanto (talk) 18:01, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's true, its not fair to criticize him for Avdivka since he took the job like a week ago. Maxsmart50 (talk)

References

  1. ^ https://www.politico.eu/article/oleksandr-syrskyi-ukraine-commander-in-chief-butcher-volodymyr-zelenskyy-war-russia/#:~:text=That%20was%20highlighted%20by%20Syrskyi,gruesome%20nickname%20of%20%22Butcher.%22
  2. ^ https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/08/world/europe/ukraine-russia-war-oleksandr-syrsky.html
  3. ^ https://www.thedailybeast.com/zelensky-taps-oleksandr-syrskyi-dubbed-the-butcher-as-commander-in-chief

Messy[edit]

If possible, can someone clean up the top part of the page Hippo1764 (talk) 17:07, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

How and when did he end up in Ukraine?[edit]

The article talks about his birth and education and military service in the USSR, and then jumps to 2014 when he's serving in the Ukrainian military in the Donbas area. How and when did he end up in Ukraine? RenniePet (talk) 22:28, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If I understand this [1] correctly, he started his military career in 1983 (USSR) by serving in "426-го мотострелкового полка 25-й мотострелковой дивизии Первой общевойсковой армии" which was located close to Kiyv. He does have a brother now living in Russia [2].
According to NYT [3], he has a very poor reputation in Ukrainian army (unlike Zaluzhny): "The nickname “the Butcher” for General Syrsky is now widespread in Ukraine’s Army.". Meaning that he sacrificed Ukrainian soldiers meaninglessly under Bakhmut and elsewhere. ("Some soldiers and junior commanders in Ukraine’s military view General Syrsky as a holdover from an older generation, and say his embrace of a head-on fight in Bakhmut showed that he was pursuing bloody, Soviet-style military tactics against an enemy doing the same. A Ukrainian platoon commander who has been fighting in the east on and off since 2014, and under General Syrsky since Russia launched its full-scale invasion in February 2022, said that the general had shown little willingness to adapt as new tactics and new technologies have appeared on the battlefield."). In that regard, the NYT article also mention his role in the disastrous Ukrainian retreat from the city of Debaltseve in 2015 when "more than a hundred were killed in a harrowing dash over farm fields to reach Ukrainian lines.".
There were numerous opinions why did Zelensky decide to replace Zaluzhny and his entire military team by Syrskyi and others. Some [4]) say that Syrskyi (unlike Zaluzhnyi) will be an obedient servant of Andriy Yermak, the Head of the Office of the President of Ukraine, who allegedly manipulates Zelensky and de facto rules Ukraine [5]. According to others [6], "Zelensky also viewed Zaluzhny as a possible political rival and threat because of his high popularity ratings, U.S. and Ukrainian officials have said.", etc. At least Zelensky did not provide any good reason for the replacement. As WaPo article says, "It’s unclear how Syrsky’s appointment will help improve what has become an increasingly perilous situation for Ukraine on the battlefield.", and again "But Ukrainian military personnel in the field said they are especially wary of Syrsky exactly because he is considered closer and more loyal to Zelensky and the chief of his administration, Andriy Yermak. “In a couple of months there will probably some attempts to conduct assault actions or something like that. Because Syrsky will follow Zelensky. And Zelensky wants big victories,” said a major currently fighting in eastern Ukraine. “I think there will be more thoughtless assaults,” he added. “And holding on to territories that shouldn’t be held on to." My very best wishes (talk) 16:34, 9 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And if he was born in Russia, to Russian parents, how does that not make him Russian? I'm sorry, but this is becoming so ridiculous, especially the fact half his family lives in Russia and ostensibly supports the war. I know it's strange to add "Ukrainian-Russian" to his identification, during the Russo-Ukrainian War, but that is based on fact. He is ethnically Russian, Russian is his first language, and his adoptive country and origin country of his wife is Ukraine. I suggest we change this to correctly state his dual ethnicities/nationalities, and his adoptive country is Ukraine, and even if he is not legally a citizen of the Russian Federation, he is an ethnic Russian nonetheless. User6619018899273 (talk) 05:14, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is probably true, but he is known as a Ukrainian military officer and he is described accordingly in the lead. My very best wishes (talk) 15:13, 18 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nickname[edit]

While some sources say he has nickname "Butcher" (as cited just above), other sources say he has nickname "Snow Leopard" [7]. Hence, I doubt it should be placed to the infobox (per BLP), although neutrally describing this in the body of the page should be OK. My very best wishes (talk) 03:53, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For publication of nicknames, especially humiliating ones, the author should cite neutral reliable sources.
The list of publications that write about it is not enough. I suggest we read each article, and the specific paragraphs on which the statement that he supposedly has the nickname butcher is based.
There were cited three sources:
  1. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/02/08/valery-zaluzhny-commander-ukraine-removed/
  2. https://www.politico.com/newsletters/national-security-daily/2024/02/08/zaluzhny-is-out-the-butcher-is-in-00140206
  3. https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/08/world/europe/ukraine-russia-war-oleksandr-syrsky.html
All those three sources are not reliable:
  1. Washington Post: is based on an opinion of a no name persons "Some Ukrainian soldiers refer to Syrsky as ..."
  2. Politico: is based on an opinion of a no name person - "a Ukrainian military captain said...", "Another person knowledgeable of Syrskyi’s operations echoed... ", "This person added...".
  3. NYT: is based on gossip "The nickname ... is now widespread in Ukraine’s Army."
So, the statement about nicknames should be deleted according to WP:BLP --Perohanych (talk) 10:57, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Washington Post: is based on an opinion of Ukrainian soldiers
Politico: is based on an opinion of a Ukrainian military captain and person knowledgeable of Syrskyi’s operation
NYT: is based on an opinion of a Ukrainian Army soldiers
If you deny this, then provide sources that refute your words.PLATEL (talk) 15:01, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
P. S. Very neutral and very reliable RBK-Ukrayina also calls him a butcher: "Many military men call Syrskyi a “butcher” behind his back. Allegedly for his ruthless character and severity". PLATEL (talk) 15:06, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
P. S. very neutral and very reliable The Bell also calls him a butcher: [8]
P. S. very neutral and very reliable Kyiv Independent also calls him a butcher: [9]
P. S. very neutral and very reliable Belsat also calls him a butcher: [10]
P. S. very neutral and very reliable The Moscow Times also calls him a butcher: [11]
I did not include Russian government (or simply local) propaganda news publications that constantly lie and are absolutely wrong in a single word!!! PLATEL (talk) 15:10, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
i agree with PLATEL, maybe we should not adding it to the infobox but create a section for critizism Braganza (talk) 15:23, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I would suggest "Gossips" (irony), "Rumors" (irony) or "Contraversions" as a title for the section, as some no name persons (some soldiers, another person, a military captain etc) spread gossips that he has humiliating nicknames, and some say vice versa, that his nickname is "Snow Leopard" --Perohanych (talk) 21:26, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So you are proposing that ALL anonymous statements, even if they are supported by the vast majority of reliable sources, be made unreliable simply because they are anonymous? Looks funny. PLATEL (talk) 22:03, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
First of all, I agree with this edit, thank you! Yes, this is sourced. I just thought it would be sensible not to include it to the infobox, especially because there are alternative "nicknames" ("Snow Leopard", whatever). My very best wishes (talk) 02:41, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am a proponent of the position: if something is written in the sources, then it should be included. So I agree to include in infobox both positive and negative nicknames as long as they are from credible and reliable sources. PLATEL (talk) 03:33, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is a sourced name calling rather than a well established nickname. Hence, keep it out of the infobox. For example, nicknames by Trump usually do not belong to corresponding BLP pages, and esp. infoboxes. My very best wishes (talk) 14:46, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I’m just wondering how this differs from the Mikhail Mizintsev infobox, where he is nicknamed (not name called) the Butcher of Mariupol. PLATEL (talk) 21:34, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The nickname of Mizintsev is much better established, it appears right in the titles of multiple articles about him. And it is much better deserved. He butchered a lot of civilians. Unlike Syrskyi, Mizintsev is basically a war criminal. My very best wishes (talk) 23:02, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
According to Western propaganda media, that is...the same media that's calling Syrsky a Butcher... Andreax2014 (talk) 05:44, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia shouldn't be biased towards one side. I think that all 3 of Oleksandr Syrskyi's nicknames should be added to the infobox. Also the article already mentions his nickname "General 200" and why he got that nickname Salfanto (talk) 18:35, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And just to note, the nicknames I've seen him be called are:
Snow Leopard
General 200
Butcher
Salfanto (talk) 18:39, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, we should put all of his nicknames in the infobox

Now a general?[edit]

Since he's now commander-in-chief, having replaced Zaluzhny, perhaps the list of military ranks should include "General"? ☺Coppertwig (talk) 18:57, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Grammar fix.[edit]

'As of 2023, his parents and brother live in Russia' - sentance in first paragraph of early life is missing full stop. 137.50.184.135 (talk) 02:17, 16 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nationality and Ethnicity[edit]

All sources confirm he was born in Vladimir, Russia, to Russian parents with no ties to Ukraine. He is by default an ethnic Russian. Why does this article omit this? Instead it ambiguously states his parents are ethnic Russians, and so what does that make him??! I have nothing against this man or Ukraine, but this is just fact. Ukraine is certainly his adoptive country and his nationality is Ukrainian, but he is an ethnic Russian. It should be written "Ukrainian-Russian" or "Ukrainian of Russian origin" (belonging to the sizable Russian minority in Ukraine) since he is not a citizen of the Russian Federation. In either case, relegating this important info to his background is ridiculous. Again, I have nothing about him or Ukraine, I just support facts. User6619018899273 (talk) 05:20, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply][reply]

It's interesting how en Wiki for Putin states he's born simply "in Russia" while Syrskyi can't be born in Russia and needs to be born in "Russian SFSR". Amazing. RandomOneRandom (talk) 21:12, 21 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 17 February 2024[edit]

Oleksandr Stanislavovych Syrskyi (Ukrainian: Олександр Станіславович Сирський; born 26 July 1965) is a Ukrainian military officer of Russian origin. User6619018899273 (talk) 05:25, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

He was born in Russia, his parents are Russian, therefore he is of Russian origin.

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. M.Bitton (talk) 23:55, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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