Talk:Observance of Christmas by country/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Untitled

seems to be a lot of origional research and article currently doesn't cite sources.--Sefringle 03:13, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

It is my first time on wikipedia. I was hoping to add some information on the Christmas in Finland article. I like to tell people about my homeland and wanted to enhance the article. For example, the article states that people light candles on the Christmas tree. I grew up there and visited hundreds and hundreds of friends and families homes and have never seen candles on a tree. Perphaps the article should say that "in the Olden Days they used candles... but now everyone uses Christmas lights". "Traditionally" should not be used in that sentence since it really doesn't happen now (whereas other traditions are still followed to this day). Also, I have never seen or eaten cod fish and think this might be a regional thing. I can certainly research that to find out for sure but I feel that much more popular Christmas foods should be mentioned such as porkkana laatikko, lanttu laatikko (= carrot and rutabaga casseroles), rosolli (= a Christmas salad) as well as maybe joulutorttu (=Christmas star pastry with prune filling). In addition, I think it is awkward to say people in Finland say "Merry Yule". Instead it would be better to say Christmas in Finnish is "Joulu" or Yule. People wish each other "Hyvää Joulua". Thank you. Kirjastotäti (talk) 16:12, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Sweden

On January 13 (locally known as knutdagen), 20 days after Christmas, the Christmas celebrations come to an end and all Christmas decorations are removed.

I spent the winter of 1999-2000 in Ljungby, Sweden and most people kept their Christnas lights up till Shrove Tuesday. I was told this was quite normal. Note I said the lights.

United States and Cananda

The line, "Santa Claus has nothing to do with the real Christmas story. Santa came in when Christmas go comercialized." really needs to be modified in some way. For now I've deleted it. Some of the christmas symbols are christmas bells and the bible. I am Trying to help my friend so please edit some more some of the drinks are eggnog, hot chocolate and coffee as well as milk. And last but not least the traditions are to leave cookies and milk for santa. as well as go to sleep early. also ice skating and hockey are traditions of chrismas

Ice skating and hockey are simply winter traditions and are not directly associated with Christmas. Many Americans, however may go around their neighborhood Christmas caroling. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.109.38.4 (talk) 17:45, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

I agree about the hockey. I deleted the information about people leaving out oats for reindeer at night, I'm American and have never heard of anyone doing that, though we do do milk and cookies. Likewise I deleted the information about "Children are told the true story of a little girl named Virginia..." because, not having heard of this either, it is a pretty big generalization.Editfromwithout (talk) 04:57, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

United Kingdom

I'm rearranging the article, and I cut this, because it doesn't belong in this page, it belongs in Christmas proper:

United Kingdom
Children have long been a part of the celebration.
Christmas crackers form an integral part of Christmas celebrations, and the Christmas pantomime is popular with young families. The festival of Nine Lessons and Carols at King's College, Cambridge is a popular religious programme. Every year since 1947 the city of Oslo has presented the people of Britain with the gift of a spruce tree as a token of appreciation for British support of Norway during the Second World War. The tree stands in Trafalgar Square and is the most famous Christmas tree in Britain.
The usual Christmas dinner meat is turkey, and Christmas pudding is the dessert. Christmas cakes, often decorated with white icing, are also baked.

--Carl 09:06, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

Why cannot this go in the article? ~ Also the traditional main meal it is not turkey in the United Kingdom but Roast Goose, as geese are more native and turkey was introduced by American culture. ~Again also, can we please refer from using England to describe the whole of the United Kingdom as in the caption under the image of on Regent Street, London, "England" should be replaced with on Regent Street, London, UK (not that many people will get it confused with London, Kentucky) --Lemonade100 (talk) 15:42, 2 November 2008 (GMT)

Advent candles. Three Pink and One Purple is plain wrong. If anything, it is three purple and one pink. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Neely1 (talk • contribs) 17:16, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. See the article for Advent Wreath --Eddylyons (talk) 01:58, 17 November 2009 (UTC)


Christmas" is bizarre! You never hear this and never would It doesn't make any sense!! 'Santa' is derived from 'saint' as in Saint Nicholas. 64.208.49.28 (talk) 13:14, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Why is surfing Santa so emphasised?

I'm not sure why the Bondi stunt is so emphasised. Similar stunts (multiple Santas on milling about on snow skis) occur in Northern Hemisphere countries, and Bondi is a single location on a big continent. Isn't that Bondi thing especially catering for displaced UK and New Zealand tourists and backpackers away from their families so unlikely to be attendeding traditional family gatherings? Most actual Australians would not be at Bondi but instead be at family gatherings. I might try to add something but I'm not sure how to approach it. Original section is below... Asa01 23:22, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

In Commonwealth countries in the southern hemisphere, Christmas is still celebrated on December 25, despite the fact that this is the height of their summer season. This rather clashes with the traditional winter based iconography of Christmas, resulting in anachronisms such as a red fur-coated Santa Claus surfing in for a turkey barbecue on Bondi Beach. The Australian and New Zealand traditions are quite similar to North Americas and The British.

OK I tried to clean-up. I think the problem with above was it was mingling two very separate and distinct things. There are special tourist barbecues in Bondi (according to wikipedia) which include humourous stunts involving dressed-up Santas, and yes in Aust there is an odd continued use of wintery decorations, carols and iconography in summer, but these are two different things. Both things are worthy of being discussed. Asa01 23:43, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Wasn't a picnic at Bondi on Boxing Day (not Christmas Day) at one time a popular Sydney tradition? Format (talk) 07:24, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Svyatki in Russia

What is the Svyatki (Святки) in Russia about?--Hhielscher 14:06, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Eight years later you have an answer: Twelve Days of Christmas. -- Ace111 (talk) 15:48, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Edit disaster

Pflaumentoffel, a chimney sweep's boy as lucky charm.

What's with all the sample images, headline texts and u's? It looks like someone used this article as a sandbox. ChibiKareshi 12:23, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Saying farewell to the man of plums

This photo was at the top of the Germany (or German-speaking Europe) section. But in fact, it has little to do with Christmas, and even fewer with its traditions. You can buy the Pflaumentoffel at Christmas markets, like many other things. From ist history, this thing is linked with children working as chimney sweep. (see: de:Pflaumentoffel). The photo is removed from the article. ----Schwab7000 (talk) 13:46, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Germany

Germany most certainly doesn't belong to 'Central Europe' as defined in this article. It ought to be mentioned in the 'Western Europe' section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.233.220.185 (talk) 16:14, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

I think someone also needs to check the section on Germany. I'm pretty sure some of the details on the "Krampus" are actually quotations from the "Venture Bros. Christmas Special" which my brother showed me last night after I had mentioned the Krampus. The line about "the Pope casting the Krampus into Purgatory" most definitely comes from the show. It may very well be that the details are correct (I don't personally know much about the Krampus), but the fact that they so closely echo lines from what was essentially a parody of traditional Christmas programming set off a few warning signals in my mind. Macroidtoe 04:18, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I suspect that this is made up. Being german I have never heard of this until reading this article. While it is true that there are many regional customs in Germany, the (german) Wikipedia article Christmas traditions in German speaking regions does not mention this. I'll delete this paragraph.195.128.251.214 21:01, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

South Korea

My boyfriend lived in South Korea for seven years, and he's never heard of Santa Claus called "Santa Haraboji." He just said Santa Claus. tweetychick630 22:01, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

santa haraboji or santa claus haraboji(santa grandfather) is commonly used in south corea. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.179.111.38 (talk) 19:45, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Proposed merge

It's been proposed that Romanian Christmas traditions be merged into this article. Actually it was also proposed that it be moved here. There seems no proposal to merge (or move) the other articles from Category:Christmas traditions by country, perhaps that's coming, or perhaps it just wasn't very well thought out.

Oppose the merge, anyway. Andrewa 12:32, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Discuss the merge of the Romanian Christmas traditions article.--Sefringle 22:45, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. But see Talk:Romanian Christmas traditions#Proposed move. Andrewa 09:24, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Yeah. That's what I meant. --Sefringle 19:47, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
The merge notice at Romanian Christmas traditions points here, the merge notice in this article points here, and IMO the proposal should be discussed here. No change of vote. Andrewa 05:04, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Support The article is a stub, and belongs as a subcategory on this article. As long as it remains a stub, it should be moved.--Sefringle 07:29, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Comment (replying to the proposer of the merge, and also of the previous move proposal): The question is not whether it's a stub but whether it is doomed to remain one. IMO this has potential for growth, to become like the articles already at American Christmas traditions and Philippine Christmas traditions. That's what stubs are for. Andrewa 10:12, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
However it still is a stub. And as long as it is this short, we should merge it here.Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. If and when it starts to get big, then we can give it its own article. Otherwise, we could give every country on this page its own article, because there are many countries on this page with more content than the Romanian christmas traditions article that do not have their own page, for example, Australia.--Sefringle 03:35, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

I have copied the imformation on the Romanian Christmas traditions article and have put it here. I will nominate that article for deletion soon if appropiate changes are not made soon.--Sefringle 03:20, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

the article has been deleted.--Sefringle 02:53, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Belgium and the Netherlands

"Sinterklaas" is not "Santa-ish". Santa Claus is clearly inspired by Sinterklaas.

Please sign your posts on talk pages. Otherwise, there's a good chance that you're wasting your time posting. Andrewa 04:53, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

About the regions

Someone should look into the regionalization here. For example, Germany is not Northern Europe, while on the other hand, UK and Ukraine (!!) do not belong to Southern Europe. Georgia belongs to Central Asia.

About the traditions in Germany and The Netherlands at Dec 6, they are not largely identical, and the German "Nikolaus"-day does not at all resemble British Christmas (I`m German, so I guess I have a faint idea about this). The Dutch tradition sees Dec 6 as their main event, while in Germany, the "Nikolaus" is a small event; purposefully not celebrated as large as Christmas. It is true that children take their shoes outside (or sometimes stockings), to be filled overnight with a few small sweets or small presents, though.

Also, in Germany are many christmas-figures mixed. It might depend on the region, but there can easily a Christkind (baby Jesus) and Santa Claus exist next to each other.

Please (sigh) sign your posts on talk pages. But thanks for your input, that's interesting. Andrewa 05:11, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

This page has been vandalised. Under the Japan heading. 67.91.66.218 (talk) 17:50, 20 December 2007 (UTC)Andre


The headline for Sweden has disappeared, yet underneath the Norwegian entry there is information about Christmas in Sweden. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.230.90.194 (talk) 17:31, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Croatia, Serbia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Macedonia, and Armenia

Can you please write about Christmas in Croatia (December 25), Serbia (January 7), Bosnia and Herzegovina (January 7), Macedonia (January 7)? Armenia as well. They celebrate it on January the 6. -- comment by 67.91.66.218 moved from article page by William Avery (talk) 11:34, 26 December 2007 (UTC).

Well, CATHOLICS in Croatia celebrate it on December 25th, but I imagine CROATIAN SERBS would celebrate it on January the 7th. In Serbia, the Catholics would also observe December 25h.
This leads me to an other thing. Bosnia has no majority religion, and the Christians are split between Catholics and Orthodox, so here more than most places both December 25th AND January 7th apply. How you decided January 7th was "their" Christmas I don't know, since I'm not sure who the "they" in question is. Is it the Bosniaks? Because they are Muslims, and y'know, as such, not so big on the Christmas.
סרסלי, קײק פּלז (talk) 08:51, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Yankee Jews

I added some stuff about us, the American Jews and our Christmas habits. Feel free to delete anything you don't think is relevant. סרסלי, קײק פּלז (talk) 08:46, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism

This article's been the subject of quite a lot of vandalism. When restoring, please be careful to review recent edits to ensure you restore properly. I'll be keeping an eye on this to see if it needs semi or full protection. --Dweller (talk) 12:43, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Done. Semi-protected. I'll full protect it, and I'm quite prepared to block any registered users if vandalism persists. --Dweller (talk) 19:52, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Again there has been vandalism between 26 Sept and 28 Sept 2009 by anonymouis users. Can someone revert it? 92.77.140.138 (talk) 19:17, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

January 2011 - Someone has been randomly removing citations. Don't do this. Then it comes up, that the area of the article needs an appropriate citation, when one already existed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.242.71.27 (talk) 16:04, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Yesterday, I made a post on the IP address's talk page, addressing why the sources were removed (not by me, but I concur with their removal). For reference, here it is:
Hi. I wanted to explain that some of your citations on Christmas worldwide got rejected because of Wikipedia's guidelines on self-published sources. If you follow the link, you will see that Wikipedia discourages the use of self-published sources such as blogs, forum posts, personal homepages and the like because they are easy to publish but hard to verify. Exceptions can be made for someone who is a recognized authority in the article's subject area, but it is preferred that sources be published by someone other than the author (e.g. books, news, research journals). Thanks for your understanding!
-- Joren (talk) 02:51, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Joren, I'm sorry but you are getting a little power crazed. You are not in charge here. I replaced the citation with one that meets your stipulation. It was removed, and I have replaced it with yet another one. Both of these meet your original stipulation and are in fact appropriate references. Don't remove them. Don't threaten me or another editor if they are removed, and then replaced again. Don't delegate other editors to threaten me (or another editor) about this issue again.

The orginal reference was appropriate however too. Even though it was a self published site, we will assume that someone who travels and promotes tourism among English speakers to the city of Treviso is in fact an "expert" on the subject. You are not going to find lots and lots of information in English about regional Epiphany folk customs. Wikipedia is that source, because it offers a space where information on topics (of ecyclopedic merit) can be discovered preserved and transmitted regardless of whether other offical channels (news media, publishing companies etc.) consider it significant. Wikipedia is radically democratic in that regard. Furthermore, this again is a folk tradition, and one that happens in open view every single year. When a blog reports on this it is not the same as a blog, say that reports on the author's personal take on the quadratic equation and why it needs to be revamped. First of all there is lots of other objective information on the quadratic equation. (There simply isn't on local relgious customs.) Secondly, a new quadratic equation would be something that might reasonably be considered controversial. This is by no means the case with the information being referenced here. If someone should someday write up on the discussion page, that no, there are not bonfires at Epiphany in Treviso, then we could consider the information in reasonable doubt and the citation in need of verification. (That however will not happen. This information can be multiply referenced and with photographs.) Until that happens however, we should have assumed that the reference was ok for the reasons above. This is not what happened, there was no mention in the talk page, the reference was simply removed. This is what prompted me to start discussion on the talk page - in other words, to pursue propper channels. Here is the original reference for your information thttp://www.blogdolcevita.com/post/2663/epiphany-in-italy-celebrating-la-befana

I am going to urge you to be very sensitive to matters like this in the future. Preserving and documenting culture and traditions are of the greatest important to people everywhere, and have been since before the dawn of time. In one sense, this is not what makes us societies or groups, but what makes us human. In the case of Treviso's particular tradtion, there is in fact no lack of documentation to use here. What about the festival traditions of the Mursi though? Notice we don't see information about them on this page. To find out how they celebrate their holidays and culture, it might take a westerner going in with cameras and crews, and producing an anthropological article at the expense of tens of thousands of dollars. Or not. You see though, by holding otherwise credible information to the standards suggested by some (no self published work, etc.) we discriminate against regional and minority groups. This sounds a great deal like colonialism, cultural and intellctual supression, and very much less like the democracy and freedom which has made wikipedia so hugely popular, and which in fact simply has made it.

We need not recourse to such a dramatic example however. How do Waldensians, in northern Italy or Greco-Albanian Byzantine Catholics in Sicily celebrate Christmas? It is not surprising that this information is not found here, although the article proposes to report on Christmas traditions worldwide, and devotes an entire section to Italy.

Ultimately, I am not going to come up with new references for whatever new stipulations on references gratuitously captious editors may come up with in the future, but simply replace will the reference with one that meets the original stipulation of no self published work. I want you to see the new reference: http://www.trevisoinfo.com/bonfires-veneto.htm This is an official info site on the city. It is an appropriate reference. If it is removed, I will replace it, and then again ask in the talk section that references not be removed, only to be requested. I am not requesting, and certainly do not welcome, a drawn-out discussion on this with you. I simply ask you understand my perspective. "Thanks for understanding." MattDiClemente (talk) 13:29, 24 January 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by MattDiClemente (talk • contribs) 13:07, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

sigh You might want to check the edit history (and perhaps reread the "not by me" part of my post above) before you start attacking me. I am not the one who removed your citations, User:This lousy T-shirt is (also, I believe User:Diannaa also removed it once) Unfortunately, they did not try to contact you to explain why until recently (they expected that you would read the WP:Edit summary, but it's understandable nobody knows what it is or how to read it until they check the page history). I tried to remedy this by talking to you here and on the IP talk page from which you were editing. When I am less busy I will return to the rest of your reply, though I'd really rather not proxy between you and User:This lousy T-shirt if I'm going to be called "power-crazy" for trying to step into this. As I told the other user, please try to assume good faith of other users, we're typically not evil trolls out to get you. Thanks :)
-- Joren (talk) 15:37, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
P.S. strong caution - trying to force a conclusion by re-editing them in is not going to help... WP:Edit warring is not taken well here, and exceeding three reverts/undos in a 24-hour period can get you blocked. Perhaps the rule seems bureaucratic and arbitrary, but it can and will get people blocked, so I thought you might appreciate the heads up before you do it accidentally. Thanks,
-- Joren (talk) 16:06, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Joren, I already told you, I do not want to hear from you anymore. Please don't bother me anymore. I worked on the article because it needed citations. I put citations on the article. They are appropriate and they are there. Find something better to do with your time. If you continue these persecutions over the citations, it must be something personal. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MattDiClemente (talk • contribs) 17:33, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Already told me? Huh? Are you perhaps confusing me with another user?
You are free to stop posting to this discussion any time you wish. In the meantime, if people continue removing your source, please at least try to understand why. Attacking me for trying to help you and the users who were removing your source understand each other is a little unwarranted. I'd been glad when you'd posted a reply defending your source and was hoping we could find some understanding with the other users... but hey if it's easier to lump us all together into one Borg-like identity, ok then. Have a nice day,
-- Joren (talk) 22:16, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

"There is more vandalism on this page, and I see the article is semi-protected or I'd fix it myself. During communism, when countries of Central Europe were under Soviet influence, communist authorities strongly pushed Russian traditional Ded Moroz ("Grandfather Frost") in the place of Little Jesus won. Now Santa Claus is attacking, by means of advertising and Hollywood film production." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.131.246.137 (talk) 13:09, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

No clue what you're addressing. Is there some vandalism there or are you suggesting that it's simply incorrect information? Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:31, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

Sweden is missing a header

The section on Sweden follows under the "Norway" header, with the "Sweden" header missing.

Can't fix myself since the article is locked. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Malesca (talk • contribs) 18:02, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Some comments on the Swedish section: "layed" should be "laid"? Is this correct grammar? And a simple typo: "Notrh" should be "North".84.49.116.43 (talk) 21:58, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. No, porrige is not knocked out.

Warrington (talk) 22:39, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Denmark

The last paragraph under 'Denmark', beginning with "The Christmas feast, in Denmark,..." has a number of issues. The first 3 sentences merely repeat what is already stated above it, except for the mention of good luck, which is a detail I am not familiar with. The rest has a few errors and could be worded better in my opinion. I propose the following paragraph to replace it:

"In Denmark, Santa Claus is known as Julemanden (literally "the Yule Man") and is said to arrive with presents for the children. He is assisted with his Yuletide chores by elves known as julenisser (or simply nisser), who are traditionally believed to live in attics, barns or similar places. In some traditions, to maintain the favor and protection of these nisser, children leave out rice pudding or other treats for them and are delighted to find the food gone on Christmas morning." --Adcoon (talk) 14:57, 25 December 2008 (UTC)


Sure

Warrington (talk) 15:33, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

United States and Canada

While 15% of Americans affiliate as non-religious, predominantly of Christian heritage,[citation needed], according to a poll by Fox News, 96% of the people in the United States celebrate Christmas,[6] while only 78% of Americans are observant Christians according to the CIA World Factbook.[7]
Why is it necessary to note this for the US and Canada and no other country? It seems like a meaningless statistic if the point of the article is to note how Christmas is celebrated as a holiday. To do so is to say that the purpose of the celebration of Christmas is strictly as a religious observance
--Eddylyons (talk) 01:53, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

I removed the sentences I referenced above. --Eddylyons (talk) 20:02, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
I removed them yet again, as whomever tried to correct later revisions used something earlier than what I had edited previously. Thanks. --Eddylyons (talk) 23:57, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

De-linking of Countries

Noticed that today, links to some (but not all) countries were removed, citing WP:Overlink. I mainly wanted to post to see if there was existing consensus as far as which countries to link to and which not to. (It seemed odd to me that Israel is linked while Japan is now unlinked...is there a specific guideline being followed?)

My 2 cents... I believe it is useful and not over-linking to have one (and only one) link in each country's section to the country it is named for. However, references to other countries in the section should NOT be linked to. E.g. in the section on Bangladesh, Bangladesh should be linked, but India should not. National links are relevant in that Christmas celebrations are very much dependent on the culture of said countries, and is likely to be a springboard for wanting to click through to articles about those cultures. (at least in this article, I have clicked through myself to many of these links). I also think it would be wise where possible/relevant to link to articles about the country's culture in preference to the country itself. In areas where Christmas celebrations of multiple areas are described in the same heading, perhaps links like United States and Canada and German language in Europe would be appropriate?

Thoughts? -- Joren (talk) 07:56, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Hungary

I have found a minor error in the Hungary paragraph. It states that Santa Claus traditionally has nothing to do with Christmas, as "child Jesus, or the Angel" delivers the present. This is relatively correct, and this used to be the hungarian tradition, yet most people in Hungary don't talk about child Jesus when discussing Christmas events, rather (possibly following the western example ) they mention Santa Claus as the giver of presents on the 24th of December. On the 6th of December, on the other hand, it's "Mikulás" (Nicolas) Who places gifts in children's shoes. It is culturally inconsistent, as both persons are supposed to be the same, but yea......guess the mass media and the influence of western culture doesn't really give a damn to preserve cultural consitency. At any rate, I think it's worth mentioning that nowadays, Santa brings the presents here in Hungary, as far as most people are concerned. The original tradition still features child Jesus though. At least when I was a child, that's what my parents told me. About 14 Years later though, hardly any people mention Jesus, which just kills the whole point of christmas, but this arguement doesn't really belong here thb. Source: Being a hungarian —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.92.203.84 (talk) 13:16, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Kazakhstan?

The 7th of January is the Eastern Orthodox Christmas and the official state holiday in Kazakhstan. I think it should be added to the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.59.199.137 (talk) 23:03, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Italy

I'm reinsertinting information on Italy again.

The information relates to Epiphany celebrations in Italy. As the article ends now, it says celebrations continue to the end of the year and then to Epiphany, but without citing this information. I am adding back information that explains how Epiphany is integral to the Christmas season in Italy, along with citations. The citations are reliable travel sites, and describe customs which take place every year in plain view. They are not controversial. These are not personal sites, and are appropriate references, especially for this topic.

In a seperate issue, I've kept all the information included from the last edit (not made by me), but have rearranged the article a little. New information was added, about the Molise Christmas Eve tradition, and about St. Lucy's day, North and South. This helps organize and interegrate the new information by putting everything in chronological flow: Dec 8, Dec 13, Dec. 24/25, Dec 26, Dec 31/Jan 1, Jan 6, and the customs associated with those days. While an older conceptual template seems to exist back at some level, which we are working over now, that is Italian Christmas by region, it is one that can be incorparated into and organized by chronology. It might be harder to do that the other way around, starting "In Molise", "In Treviso", etc., and jumping from date to date. MattDiClemente (talk) 23:35, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

You have a good point about arranging the information in chronological flow! With the new information added to the section and some good inter-wikilinks (such as the ones for the Santa Lucia song and for Cuccia) it would look fantastic. There's an inter-winkilink for Babbo Natale too which should be included. This lousy T-shirt (talk) 03:14, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

Move section about the UK to Northern Europe?

Isn't the UK widely considered a part of Northern Europe? It is according to other wikipedia articles. I'd move it myself, but I don't quite know how to delete a section. Tommkin (talk) 19:01, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

You are deary wrong regarding Israel

Some Israeli Jews in fact do celebrate Christmas. Therefor your claim in the page, is wrong. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.229.45.251 (talk) 17:59, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Reversion

On 16 November 2011, for some reason, an IP user decided to remove all the <ref> tags in the article, thus causing all the footnotes to be inserted into the middle of the prose. In order to fix this, I reverted the article to the previous version. However, I was unable to figure out what all of the changes that had been made since then consisted of. If anyone else had made good edits which got reverted as part of this, please feel free to restore your good edits, because my reversion was not directed at them. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 07:31, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Christmas Pineapple

..in the Australian section. Third paragraph. Can't find any refs to this tradition anywhere.....funnily enough. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.161.24.202 (talk) 10:33, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Split

I removed the split tag because there was no discussion and if I understood the intentions correctly then the split off articles would not be viable. It may be better if the article formed a table of traditions v country with prose only for an introduction and unusual cases. Some of the information is highly detailed for such a general article. Op47 (talk) 16:32, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Christmas church services

Could you consider including a section under the UK about the Nine Lessons & Carols tradition? I don't see any mention of church services anywhere in this section.Yip1982 (talk) 05:57, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Hong Kong

Why the hell are Taiwan and Japan under the point Hong Kong?--2.245.72.79 (talk) 00:15, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Article Butchery

This article has been quite unnecessarily butchered around Christmas time 2013. These facts are not controversial, but quite well know undisputed customs of Christmas celebration. Please do not mass-remove every sentence that doesn’t have an inline citation, just add a citation if indeed is needed and somebody will find those sources. Here, this starts again. And also, some things removed were actually sourced. Hafspajen (talk) 15:51, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

  • I am telling you guys, stop this. No need to remove again a sentence that happens to add other info that citation. WP:PRESERVE. This is not a not controversial topic, and references can be found. Before removing ANYTHING - make sure that there is no such reference for it you can find yourself. Otrherwise it is just disruptive editing ->Wikipedia:Disruptive editing forcing other people to start working to find references, when the removed things have been just quite alright. Hafspajen (talk) 12:20, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

Title

Such an unusual title change ("Geography"?) requires a discussion on the article talk page which seems like it hasn't occurred yet. I don't see how a holiday has a geography, it's a metaphor which is not appropriate for an article title. Liz Read! Talk! 16:43, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

MAybe, Liz, you take a look at User talk:Drmies# A title, section A title, there is some discussion... Hafspajen (talk) 17:03, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

I agree that it's an odd move. Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:47, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
Well, yes. Move discussion here. Hafspajen (talk) 18:36, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

Why change Christmas worldwide to Geography of Christmas?? It gives the feeling of climbing around trees, hams and candy- Hafspajen (talk) 22:13, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

Right so, exactly. Hafspajen (talk) 22:35, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
Maybe International Christmas traditions and customs (that isn't right either, but you catch my drift.) --kelapstick(bainuu) 22:36, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
Yes, best so far- Hafspajen (talk) 22:49, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
If we are reflecting world wide perspective (as policy says we should), do we need to use "International"? Just Christmas traditions and customs sounds fine to me. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 22:51, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
I was struggling with that, I am not sure...maybe. --kelapstick(bainuu) 22:54, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
But it is about a lot of countries.... Hafspajen (talk) 23:06, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
So? We have an article on Bacon that covers the delicacy in many countries, but we don't have International bacon. By virtue of being an encyclopedia and Christmas being an international holiday, it is already implied that the article will cover it internationally. How well it is covered internationally is a matter of editing, not of title. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 23:15, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
To add, if you wanted to cover traditions only in Germany or the US, you would make Christmas traditions and customs in Germany or similar. No country owns the holiday, so more specific articles should differentiate. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 23:19, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
You got a point there, Dennis. Hafspajen (talk) 23:22, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
International Hafspajen (talk) 00:37, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
I really wonder how the Swedes view the Swedish Chef, ignorant racism or humorous affection? After all, when he was popular, we were buying a lot of Abba albums at the same time. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 00:46, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
Definitely funny. Hafspajen (talk) 00:59, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
Yeah right, an other of this weird titles, [1]. Dog agility worldwide became Geography of dog agility. This young man has Geography on his mind. Hafspajen (talk) 03:33, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
Speaking of geography: Did You Know...that Drmies camped a few nights at Saint Birgitta's chapel? Drmies (talk) 03:41, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
No, didn't. Because it was nice or convenient or ... Were you hoping for a vision? OK; because it was on Öland!! New aricle! Nice. Can anyone stop this guy? He is mass moving articles like: Robotics worldwide ->Geography of robotics, Firefighting worldwide ->‎ Geography of firefighting ...Rugby league around the world to -> Geography of rugby league - now this is really the worst Swimming around the world ->Geography of swimming'!! and Ice cream around the world -> Geography of ice cream!... Hafspajen (talk) 03:48, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

This is a matter that should be taken up with Neelix. I don't have much of an opinion yet, but maybe Neelix can explain: there seem to be significant objections. Drmies (talk) 04:37, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

Unless we are talking about Star Trek: Voyager, I don't know Neelix, but I would like to be pinged if a bigger discussion takes place. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 12:30, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
Thank you for calling my attention to this discussion, Drmies! I was surprised to see that this discussion had become so lengthy before I even found out that it had begun. I have undertaken these moves because "worldwide" very rarely means anything in the context of an article title, as has been pointed out above by Dennis Brown; the Bacon article is already about bacon worldwide, therefore it would be superfluous to add the word "worldwide" to the title of that article, and it would not make sense to create a new article called "Bacon worldwide" because that title does not indicate a difference from the main article. An article about how bacon is treated differently in different places would have to have a title that indicates that subject, and "Bacon worldwide" doesn't do that. When I have found the word "worldwide" in the title of an article, I have normally simply removed it (ex. Timeline of women hazzans worldwide → Timeline of women hazzans). In some cases, however, the article was not about the general topic but rather about the human geography of that thing. Before I initiated moves from "x around the world" or "x worldwide" to "Geography of x", there had already existed an article called Geography of food and another called Geography of finance. I modelled the other human-geography-related article titles on these two pre-existing titles. This format matches history and philosophy; an article about how the treatment of x has differed throughout history is called "History of x", an article about how the treatment of x has differed among philosophies is called "Philosophy of x", and an article about how the treatment of x has differed geographically is called "Geography of x". I didn't come up with this concept on my own; it is a common concept in human geography and was already in place in several articles on Wikipedia. All that being said, a look at the present article demonstrates that it is an outline of Christmas traditions that happen to be sorted geographically, and I would therefore support a move to Christmas traditions (as "traditions and customs" is redundant). Neelix (talk) 15:57, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
Sorry about that. Hope you don't mind, if I tell you that I like you very much ( checked your userpage..) but I am not that happy about these geography changes ... Geography of food is indeed about geography, but this mass geography of ..x, y, z ..is streching things a bit too far. Hafspajen (talk) 16:09, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
I think that is the key here, if the article is about geography, then "Geography of" makes sense. Otherwise, it is a bit awkward. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 17:36, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
Which articles have I moved to the "Geography of x" format that are not about human geography? As far as I can tell, all of them are about how a concept differs geographically. Neelix (talk) 19:28, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
Well, Geography of swimming, Geography of ice cream, and Geography of Christmas, for example, all sound ridiculous. You know, I have degrees in Sociology and it just sounds like a sociological appropriation. Ten years ago it was "landscape"...like the landscape of poverty or the religious landscape or the landscape of women in developing countries. I "get" what you mean by naming things "geography" but it's not easily understood by the general reader, that a term used to discuss maps, lands, mountains and oceans actually means "worldwide" or "international" because that's what those articles are about...how that custom, item or activity differs from country to country. And doesn't most of human culture vary around the world? Are all of the articles covering national differences be labeled "Geography of"? What makes ice cream or Christmas different from beer, weddings, education, shoes, award shows, the military or Valentine's Day? Should there be a Geography of Easter? A Geography of football? A Geography of hats? A Geography of movies? A Geography of child-rearing?
Above all, I do not think article titles should be ambiguous or interpretive or poetic and labeling every article on aspects of human culture that varies (which is every aspect) as a "Geography" nails all three of those adjectives. IMHO. Liz Read! Talk! 20:06, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
Neelix, my dear friend, don't take it personally. Cultural geography and such might not need be applied here to. Hafspajen (talk) 19:50, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
There may be some "technically correct" in using the term, but it isn't used in common language, so it very awkward. You ask any layman about Geography, they aren't going to be talking about culture, but instead terrain. That makes the title confusing to the average person, ie: the reader. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 20:07, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
I just want to echo, Hafspajen. I see what you're trying to do, Neelix, and I understand why you modeled your recent moves on a couple of articles. I just think that the field of Human Geography is unknown to most people although they would understand it once it was explained to them. But in something as immediate as an article title, I think the primary words are accurate, concise and obvious. Above all, I don't think that anyone searching for these terms will search WP using the keyword "geography". Liz Read! Talk! 20:21, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

I notice that Neelix would support a move to Christmas traditions. Looks like an old redirect-, or? Hafspajen (talk) 21:18, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

  • I would agree with Neelix on that move over the old redirect. The larger issue is using "Geography" in titles that aren't about physical geography, but that larger issue is beyond this talk page. And I respect Neelix technical correctness, I just think common usage trumps it. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 23:22, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
Agree. Move back now. Continue to discuss the correct title later. Salt "Geography of Christmas" to prevent move back. Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:37, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
Several users have argued against the "Geography of x" format, but (apart from the Christmas article) no one has offered alternatives. I would be glad to discuss other options with anyone who can think of viable alternatives. Neelix (talk) 18:38, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
The general consensus was that the Geography of and so I have taken the liberty to move the article back to Christmas worldwide until a new title can be found. Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:55, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
Eh, Walter? We did had better alts : Christmas traditions, Christmas traditions and customs...Neelix had a point there , Hafspajen (talk) 18:57, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
I don't mind that title but not everyone agreed on it. The only agreement seemed to be that the geography title was not a good one. Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:59, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
UH. Neelix had a point there, removing worldwide.. Hafspajen (talk) 19:01, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
Christmas traditions would be my choice. "geography", "worldwide", "global" are all implied by the fact that it is a somewhat global holiday. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 19:14, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
I'm fine with it as well but wouldn't go so far as to say that I support it. Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:41, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
Bless you Walter. Hafspajen (talk) 19:46, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Central Europe vs German speaking Europe

Good joke! By your logic Germany can be described as a part of Polish/Slavic speaking Europe, Turkic speaking Europe or Romani speaking Europe (minorities) huh?159.134.212.155 (talk) 21:04, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Move comment from my talk to generate discussion. Gerda Arendt let me know what you think. Hafspajen (talk) 21:20, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Yes, minorities live there, But 1.4.1 is Central Europe - Austria should come first - thus placing the German speaking countries Austria and Germany on top, what's the problem. Hafspajen (talk) 21:37, 17 December 2014 (UTC)


Honestly, I never understood Hafspajen's prose nor logic, but will come when he calls. With regard to the Poles, besides Lukas Podolski we got the nice customes] of the Sorbs. However never come up with the James George Frazer theory of continuity of Christmas to the celts or what so ever as in Halloween, (thats as bullshit prone as IPCC consensus) and useful only to be debunked. Serten II (talk) 21:40, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
Serten, the IP thinks that our article put Hungary, Poland and what more into the German speaking countries. I don't think this is the case. (even if there are German minorities in those countries) Hafspajen (talk) 21:48, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
This whole section is confusing for any common reader. It may wrongly suggest that Hungary, Poland, Romania and Moldova are part of "german speaking Europe". Minorities have nothing to do with it cos I dont think anyone would come up with an idea to call Germany a part of a Slavic Europe or Iran part of Christendom even tho there are them minorities in both countries.159.134.212.155 (talk) 21:57, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
Oh boy, the whole christmas tradition is not being confined to a territory, Martin Luther was much more important. Ausmarsch Hoppenstedt ! Serten II (talk) 22:16, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
Im not sure if u quite understand what the whole conversation is about?159.134.212.155 (talk) 23:05, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

..Well, it doesn't really suggest that Hungary, Poland, Romania and Moldova are part of "German speaking Europe ... All are part of Central Europe. Hafspajen (talk) 22:27, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

For a common reader who dont pay attention to 4 or 5 number subsections this may not be so obvious. Btw your reason for reverting my edit is neither scientific nor factual.159.134.212.155 (talk) 23:05, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
We can of course move them all out and put them into the Easters Europe section. Yngvadottir, suggestions? Hafspajen (talk) 22:30, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
Sure, we can also put Germany into 'Asia' or 'Middle East' section.159.134.212.155 (talk) 23:05, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
(Not my topic at all.) Where Central Europe stops and Eastern Europe starts is a surprisingly politically fraught matter, but my guess is the IP hasn't understood the indentation: you have German-speaking Europe as a sub-section of Central Europe. That makes talk of minorities and such beside the point: the other countries are not being classed as part of German-speaking Europe. (Unless I misunderstood what was reverted.) In short, it looks ok to me. Yngvadottir (talk) 22:39, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
Im just pointing out that 4number sections and the whole composition of that section may not be so obvious to a common Wikipedia reader.159.134.212.155 (talk) 23:05, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
Anyway, Changed to Austria and Germany. Is that an acceptable compromise? Hafspajen (talk) 22:40, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
If „Revanche pour Sadowa!“ is being given, yes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Serten II (talk • contribs) 23:32, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
  • Serten II ≥ my feelings. My prose and logic, is very logical. Because A comes before B. And H, P and all the rest of it. And before - that was Austro-Hungary, no? Maybe. And we fighted the Turks enough. And now you want to mix in the Russians to. Either way, Austria will be first. Hafspajen (talk) 00:55, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

Silesia? Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:28, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

Yes, the good old times! Hafspajen (talk) 05:38, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
Basically - Serten II, I will now impress you with my logic - The edit notice' and the indent are two different problems. Editnotice somewhat unluckily stated: Central Europe: Poland, Hungary, Romania and Moldova ARE NOT part of German speaking Europe.) - Because they were, of course, historically. All countries mentioned were! That is the confusing historical part.
The other thing - after we all had fun, indeed - when reading the article it could be understood that way, actually. So to take that point, we changed the section to: Austria and Germany. Nevertheless it was correct, but there was sight a possibility to misunderstand it. Hafspajen (talk) 05:46, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
  • One last thing - Serten II - but has the was a Scottish social anthropologist expert on mythology and comparative religion has to do with it? Hafspajen (talk) 05:48, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
Just boasting knowledge. Actually Frazer found a lot of völkisch friends in Germany, as the brownies tried to make the christmas fir a camouflaged Yule tree and so on. Serten II (talk) 05:57, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

Misspelling

Since the article is "protected" I can't fix misspelling of shepherd under Lebanon. 24.111.148.106 (talk) 00:18, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

 Done Thanks to User:Walter Görlitz! -- Chuq (talk) 07:36, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

The Yule Log Must Go

Hi,

I'm removing the Yule Log text for Scandinavia. People who believe you can put a whole tree in a fireplace and use it to heat for a week a) have never been inside a log farm house and b) should not edit Wikipedia. The source is an anonymous blog under an online Santa Claus figurine shop. Just saying.

T2001:4610:A:5E:0:0:0:16E1 (talk) 23:41, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

If it's not referenced, that might be OK. Otherwise, please don't touch it. Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:54, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
Um ... why? The Yule Log is not a Scandinaviain tradition. I looked around for a Scandinavian source that mentions anything like it, and found nothing. There are no references in the blog that is used to source this weird claim.
If no new RS is forthcoming for the Yule Log, I'll revert the revert in a week or so.
T 2001:4610:A:5E:0:0:0:16E1 (talk) 01:07, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
There's a RS there already. Removing it will be considered unconstructive. Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:58, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
Ridiculous. An anonymous, completely unsourced blog without a single reference is not a RS. Using it will be considered unconstructive and highly unencyclopedic. T. 2001:4610:A:5E:0:0:0:16E1 (talk) 21:06, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
I'll make you a deal. Feel free to remove the source. There's an entire article on the subject full of sources. I'll simply move them all over here. Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:39, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
Counteroffer: Just put one or two of these sources here on the TP, I'll gladly read them and yield if they support the existence of yule logs. T 88.91.200.83 (talk) 02:24, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
Read all ten of them for yourself at yule log. Walter Görlitz (talk) 03:12, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
Hi, thx. But none of them make any specific mention of Norway. The term seems to be connected to the UK more than Scandinavia. Is there anye Scandinavian source? T 2001:4610:A:5E:0:0:0:16E1 (talk) 11:06, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Hi, I know it's not an english speaking source, but this is Store Norske Leksikon on "Jul": https://snl.no/jul. No mention of logs. If you want to present the yule log as a Scandinavian custom, you need to provide a RS for that claim. T 2001:4610:A:5E:0:0:0:16E1 (talk) 23:02, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Hi, no further comments, so I take it you accede the point; thank you. T. 2001:4610:A:5E:0:0:0:16E1 (talk) 02:32, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Requested move 19 December 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. At this time there is not a consensus to rename this article. Jenks24 (talk) 05:18, 28 December 2015 (UTC)


Christmas traditions → Christmas customs by country – I already made the move as I thought it would be uncontroversial, but apparently it is controversial and was reverted. How is this an article about "Christmas traditions" if it is basically describing the legal status of Christmas, and whether it is observed, in countries around the world. The section on Malaysia for example: "There has been controversy over whether or not the national government has exerted pressure on Malaysian Christians not to use Christian religious symbols and hymns that specifically mention Jesus Christ". How is this about traditions rather than about a more general article on the status of Christmas around the world? If this article was about traditions it would be a description of the varying traditions at Christmas, not the way countries do or do not legalize/celebrate the holiday. We can create a separate article about Christmas traditions, but this article is not that. In fact it was originally titled Christmas around the world until it was moved, inappropriately, here. Crumpled Fire (talk) 20:01, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

  • Oppose move at this stage. I'm not opposed to improving the content so that it better describes how Christmas is celebrated around the world. I'm not even opposed to changing the title in due course, so that it better reflects the content of the article. But, unilaterally changing the article title, and the introductory paragraphs, in the way you did it, without first reaching consensus here, was in my view not a constructive approach. If we start from the position of asking ourselves, how can this article be improved, there's no reason to doubt that editors here could in due course reach a consensus, both on the content and the title. I'm interested to see the views of other editors. Ghmyrtle (talk) 20:24, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
PS: Until now, I was unaware of the article on Christmas and holiday season. The question that arises is whether some (or even all) of this article could and should be merged with that one. But, that's not the question being asked here. Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:15, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose I was going to revert yesterday for the reasons given above. It lists the Christmas traditions of various nations. How about Germany: "In Germany Christmas traditions vary by region" and it goes on to list them. Shall I list others? Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:50, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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presentism

This article lacks almost all historical perspective. For instance, Christmas trees became popular in the UK after Prince Albert brought them from Germany; you would never know anything about that. The article should be retitled "Christmas practices as of the early 21st century", or else given some kind of larger historical practice. See WP:Recentism, WP:presentism --Lquilter (talk) 15:25, 12 January 2017 (UTC)

Missing articles

There should be an article for every country that celebrates Christmas IMO. --Bigpoliticsfan (talk) 22:58, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

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