Talk:Norse Atlantic Airways

This article is within the scope of the Aviation WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see lists of open tasks and task forces. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.AviationWikipedia:WikiProject AviationTemplate:WikiProject Aviationaviation articles

This article has not yet been checked against the criteria for B-class status:
Referencing and citation: not checked Coverage and accuracy: not checked Structure: not checked Grammar and style: not checked Supporting materials: not checked	To fill out this checklist, please add the following code to the template call: \| b1<!--Referencing and citation--> = <yes/no> \| b2<!--Coverage and accuracy --> = <yes/no> \| b3<!--Structure --> = <yes/no> \| b4<!--Grammar and style --> = <yes/no> \| b5<!--Supporting materials --> = <yes/no> assessing the article against each criterion.

Norway

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Norway, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Norway on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.NorwayWikipedia:WikiProject NorwayTemplate:WikiProject NorwayNorway articles

The following Wikipedia contributor has declared a personal or professional connection to the subject of this article. Relevant policies and guidelines may include conflict of interest, autobiography, and neutral point of view.
Edits made by the below user were last checked for neutrality on 7 October 2021 by ChainChomp2.

Markus Norse (talk · contribs) This user has contributed to the article. This user has declared a connection. (declared here)

Draft page[edit]

A pre-existing draft page on this topic has been located at Draft:Norse Atlantic Airways following the company's reveal in March 2021, prior to the creation of this article in August 2021. While the draft has been declined twice, if approved, I would propose the merging of content on the respective pages; much of the content otherwise overlaps so this wouldn't be too big a task which I would be willing to partake in. ChainChomp2 (talk) 05:52, 12 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed merge of Draft:Norse Atlantic Airways into Norse Atlantic Airways[edit]

Draft has more information than this article. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:28, 12 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Merge – If this means, if indirectly, that the Draft article would otherwise have been accepted as a Wikipedia article (as it had been declined twice), then I would be happy to merge the two and attempt integration of the existing information present on both. As stated, the Draft article was created (March 2021) and worked on prior to the existing article being created (August 2021), which also bypassed the AfC process. The two are otherwise duplicates. ChainChomp2 (talk) 09:11, 14 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Handling lists of destinations[edit]

Since it is public knowledge that the company has applied for an air operator's certificate in the UK, and that they've also publicly expressed that they plan to announce London Gatwick destinations "soon", it's a given that a "Norse Atlantic Airways UK" article (speculative title) will be created, although with regard to their respective destinations it is less clear.

For example, Norwegian Long Haul and Norwegian Air UK have their own lists, which are additionally separate from List of Norwegian Air Shuttle destinations (although this list does include them), and given that Norse can be projected to opeate "only" a handful of long-haul destinations, it'd be feasible to manage this (myself even if need be) for Norse and its UK counterpart. This is in contrast to short-haul operations where EasyJet, Wizz, and Ryanair with their separate AOCs and/or brands which may consolidate their many many destinations into one list, or even the existing Norwegian Air Sweden simply has its destinations refer to the main Norwegian list in the sense that they're interchangeable.

Personally, I propose that a combined list would exist for this article (or possibly a separate "List of" article), while Norse UK could have its own separate list, but would refer to the main one. Any thoughts?

I figured that this wouldn't be too big a deal, but inevitably the articles may deal with different editors going by different standards based on what they see from other articles, so if even one other user participates in this discussion it'd be something. ChainChomp2 (talk) 02:20, 4 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I think Wizz/EasyJet/Ryanair is the model to follow, not old Norwegian Long Haul. The Old Norwegian page is not a model that should be followed anywhere. The pages are largely unreflective of the actual operations of Norwegian's former long haul system. Any such specific information is unlikely to be able to be accurately or properly sourced. (This is off topic for this page, but illustrative of the pitfalls of including such detail: the Norwegian Long Haul pages need a major reconfiguration to have any reflection of reality. NLH wasn't an active AOC- It was all NAS, NSE or NUK, the AOC's didn't actually reflect the routes shown on wikipedia- NUK operated JFK-AMS and JFK-MAD in summer of 2019, NAS had a LGW-JFK round trip for much of Spring 2019. Even the bases weren't consistently what was shown on the page. For example: At the end, JFK was a NAS/NUK/NSE base. The final Long haul flights were operated by NAS and crewed by LGW and BKK crews. As far as I can tell as a former crew member, the only actual DU flights were the first few 787 deliveries.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.69.221.99 (talk) 05:36, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I originally saw this maybe a month after it was written but didn't think to respond at the time, but I'd like to say that this is very informative and helpful, thank you. NLH being folded into NAS was something I'd seen written, but as you've noted, anything of this nature was difficult or impossible to find sourced (fleet websites would list an active NLH fleet, I think even Flightradar24 may have even listed "operated by Norwegian Long Haul" on tracked flights by 2018 or 2019). Now that Norse UK has received its AOC, operating license, and US permit, it sounds like referring to and consolidating all destinations within one list will be the way to go. ChainChomp2 (talk) 22:58, 1 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Counting the airline's aircraft[edit]

It appears that there is disagreement and inconsistency on how to display Norse's aircraft count between what's "in service" and what's "on order", so in an effort to find consensus, here's what we know based on different citations such as those in the existing "Fleet development" section, at the time of writing:

Norse states, and secondary sources corroborate, that the airline has 13 of its 15 Boeing 787s by 18 October 2022 (assuming the inclusion of the one under Norse UK, listed by the UK CAA).
- BOC Aviation put out a press release on 28 October 2022 that it delivered its sixth 787-9 to Norse, presumably the 14th for Norse overall.
Five of the 787s (three 787-8s and two 787-9s) have been leased out by Norse; two of each have been leased to Air Europa while the operator of the third 787-8 was unstated (although both Planespotters and Airfleets determine it to also be Air Europa, presumably as EC-NZG, if curious).
Norse and/or its CEO has also stated that 10 are to be operated for summer 2023.

Which leads me to:

The recent citing (dated 28 October 2022) of Norse completing its BOC Aviation deliveries being used to determine that no 787-9s remain jumps the gun somewhat, as the airline has stated it is leasing/financing its 787s from two different lessors (AerCap and BOC), and what's not known is the variant of the remaining 787 (-8 or -9; if it is assumed to be a -9, there should be one on the order count, and if it is an -8, then 12 787-9s should be listed in service, not 11).
- In other words, we can assume either they have a count of 3 787-8s and 11 787-9s, or 2 787-8s and 12 787-9s.
As currently listed in the fleet table, 3 outstanding 787-8s and 11 in-service 787-9s (with no outstanding 787-9 deliveries) does not add up to 15, and is inconstent considering the four 787s being used by Air Europa, which have been in active service, are currently listed as either "orders" (-8s) or "in service" (-9s) in Norse's fleet table, as-is. (Supposedly, the registrations in question are EC-NVZ, EC-NXA and EC-NZG for the -8s, and EC-NVX and EC-NVY for the -9s, if curious as to their service activity status.)

WP:ALFC states that wet-leased aircraft are not to be included; it does not specify whether this refers leased-in or leased-out aircraft, however it can refer to both, though Norse/Air Europa's agreement may be the case of a dry-lease. For an in-practice example, when WOW air leased-in its A330-300s (one financed from a lessor, two from Air Europa), the two from Air Europa were not included in its counts until the two from Air Europa were placed in the Icelandic aircraft registry (and supposedly, were not going to be returned to Air Europa), and attempts to add them to WOW's fleet table counts before reregistry were reverted. Conversely, I don't immediately know if Air Europa's fleet table took this into account, or if its leasing-out to WOW air was even mentioned at the time. (And to be fair, WP:ALFC also states that secondhand aircraft, such as those that Norse is taking in, should not be included in "order" counts, but enough editors seem to be liberal with this particular guideline with how commonplace and gray of an area aircraft leasing/financing whether of new or secondhand aircraft can be.)

Currently, the leased-out 787-8s are assumed to be listed as "orders" while the leased-out 787-9s in contrast are listed as "in service", therefore, I've determined the following courses of action to address this inconsistency:

Include the leased-out aircraft under "in service": (3 787-8s in service, 11 787-9s in service, 1 787-9 on order)
Include the leased-out aircraft under "orders": (3 787-8s on order, 9 787-9s in service, 3 787-9s on order—I've changed the listing to this for now, barring any disagreement)
Exclude the leased-out aircraft from both, and hope an editor thinks to add them to the counts when/if Air Europa (or whoever operates the third 787-8) returns them after their 18-month lease terms: (no 787-8s listed, 9 787-9s in service, 1 787-9 on order)

For the last option, it may also be helpful to clearly state whether in the Fleet development section or even within commented-out text that the airline has leased out some number of aircraft, considering Norse itself is stating in its press releases how many it has taken delivery of, and how many it plans to operate by 2023, which may confuse some number of readers and editors. I've seen some attempts to list the leasing recipient (Air Europa) under the notes, but I may recall at least one of those claimed that four 787-9s were leased to Air Europa rather than the even split between both variants as it was in actuality at the time.

Feel free to share any thoughts, preferences, or even questions. ChainChomp2 (talk) 14:25, 1 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

2024 is here, and, as an editor has pointed out, the remarks on the leasing-out period of "late 2023" has passed and needed to be updated.

Well, as of their Q3 quarterly results presentation, the airline has stated (on pages 3 and 24) that it intends to operate 12 787s by summer 2024, up from the 10 it operated for 2023, before operating all 15 in 2025. The Q3 quarterly report has a discrepancy where on pages 4 and 16 it mentions 787s being subleased and that they will return between March and June 2024, ahead of the peak summer season, but not the amount. An issue here is that in neither the report nor the presentation did they specify the variants (-8 or -9) of the 787s in question (just that the airline itself; Norse, specifies the total fleet consisting of 12 -9s and 3 -8s).

(For context, three -8s and two -9s were stated to be leased out, which can be cross-checked with various fleet database websites or flight tracker platforms that allow one to search by aircraft registration to understand that no -8s are currently under the airline's own operation, even if they are paying a lessor for them.)

Therefore, I propose combining the notes section of the fleet table of both the -8 and -9 and state that, based on the presentations, that two are expected by June 2024, while the other three are not expected until 2025. But as to the types of which are expected when, is not known (we'll just find out as it happens and update the table accordingly really).

And as seemingly agreed by the lack of action taken; aircraft currently leased out whether to Air Europa or otherwise not registered to or operated by Norse will continue to be counted under the "Orders" column.

As said before, feel free to share any thoughts, preferences, counterpoints, or even questions. ChainChomp2 (talk) 20:41, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]