Talk:Newtown Public Schools

This article was nominated for deletion on 15 December 2012. The result of the discussion was procedural close.

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Official enrollment numbers for 2012[edit]

The official enrollment number for Sandy Hook School as of November 30, 2012, was 456:

http://www.newtown.k12.ct.us/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=yrE601iIboU%3D&tabid=3295&mid=39347

It is not known at this time why the letter attributed to Dawn Hochsprung that same fall suggested an enrollment of almost 700 students; at any rate, that number (700) is incorrect. The correct number was 456. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.92.192.240 (talk) 20:27, 23 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

District website is offline[edit]

FYI, all the URLs on the page are likely correct, but the whole district site has been taken down, likely because of the recent tragedy. My recommendation is to leave the URLs in place, my guess is that they will work in a week or a month from now. --Arg342 (talk) 14:25, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Edit request - Sandy Hook School[edit]

No consensus for making the requested change, and the discussion is going nowhere. Rivertorch (talk) 05:21, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

The actual name of the school is Sandy Hook School, not Sandy Hook Elementary School. If you look at the names of the other three elementary schools on the list in the article, you'll notice that none of them have the word "Elementary" in them. That's correct. Here's a pic of the school sign from this article. --76.189.123.142 (talk) 04:22, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: It seems it'r referred to by both names and in the article you provided a link to it's referred to as both. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 04:30, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The name of the school is Sandy Hook School. I showed you the definitive proof, a photo of the school sign. The fact that the article refers to it as "Sandy Hook Elementary" doesn't make it the actual school name. It's standard for a news site to use Elementary, Middle or High for a school name. As I said, none of the four elementary schools in the Newtown Public Schools have the word Elementary in their names, as correctly shown for the other three schools on the list in the article. --76.189.123.142 (talk) 04:38, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Also, you can go to the school district's website (http://newtown.hawley.schooldesk.net/). Hover on the Schools tab and you will see that the name of the school is Sandy Hook School. --76.189.123.142 (talk) 05:25, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The ultimate proof that the name of the school is Sandy Hook School... read the principal's message. Please make the change in the article. The school's name is Sandy Hook School and more than enough proof has been provided. --76.189.123.142 (talk) 05:40, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Here's another source.[1] --76.189.123.142 (talk) 06:31, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think you may be right. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 06:38, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. And I know I'm right because I know people who live in that general area and everyone there knows the name of the school is Sandy Hook School. But of course I need to provide reliable sources on here to prove it, which I have. Actually, you can change it since you're a registered user. Thanks, Anna. --76.189.123.142 (talk) 07:11, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This image shows a very prominent and expensive sign with the word 'Elementary' in it. I doubt that they would have sprung for an extra 10 giant metal letters if this was not the name of the school. Abductive (reasoning) 07:16, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You are of course referring to this image. Abductive, you have a pretty good point. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 07:21, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"Elementary my dear, Anna (and Abductive)". A bit OR-ish but there it is, "SANDY HOOK ELEMENTARY... " in rather big (5 bricks high) letters. - 220 of ^Borg 07:35, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: Sometimes an institution goes by more than one name, even to the point of contradictory signs. (At a school I once attended, there was a spirited, ongoing argument as to whether "The" was part of the official name. Go figure. Any wonder I became a Wikipedian?) Nonetheless, we should pick one or the other, and I think the choice is clear. The Hartford Courant, the largest newspaper in Connecticut, refers to it as "Sandy Hook Elementary School", as does a local television station. Local media should know. If that's not local enough, how about going to the horse's mouth: the school's own web site should be reliable, I think. Re-closing good-faith edit request now. Rivertorch (talk) 07:56, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Here is the Newtwon Public Schools' home page on their official website. Hover on the Schools tab? What does it say the name of the school is? Notice how the Intermediate, Middle and High schools all use those words in the names, yet the four elementary schools do not use the word Elementary. Why would the school district use the full name for three schools, but not for the other four? Answer: because those are the actual names of each of the schools. Do you actually believe that three of the elementary schools don't have Elementary in their actual names, but that the school district decided they would break that pattern and have the other one include it? The answer is no. I assure you that the name will ultimately be changed to the correct name, Sandy Hook School. And for the record, local media (and all media, for that matter) always use Elementary, Middle and High when naming schools in their stories; it is standard journalism convention to do so. It's simply done for clarity. Finally, the Hartford Courant is NOT the local newspaper; it's the metroplitan newspaper for the region. Hartford is 50 miles from Sandy Hook. The local newspaper is the Newtown Bee, which verifies that the name of the school is Sandy Hook School.[2] --76.189.123.142 (talk) 15:23, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You really, really may be right. [3] Anna Frodesiak (talk) 15:39, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The IP who started this is on some sort of nitpicky crusade. Never mind that the school's own web page says "Elementary" and that the external sources are widely using the term "Elementary". He's totally hung up on this detail, for reasons known only to himself. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:51, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Bugs, knock off your incivility. This is about correcting incorrect information. On the school shooting article, you called having the school's name correct "a tiny detail". That's outrageous. Sorry, but editors are supposed to get "hung up" on getting the facts straight. So please stop your intransigence and bullying. I have provided the proof of the school's name. --76.189.123.142 (talk) 15:57, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You have provided original research on what you want the school's name to be. In fact, both names are used, and the valid sources are widely using "Elementary". We go by sourcing, not by your personal experience. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:00, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Anna! Providing the school district's official budget document is perfect. So Bugs, why did you ignore Anna's solid proof?? Here it is in black and white. Sandy Hook School. --76.189.123.142 (talk) 16:00, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

WP:COMMONNAME is the guiding principle here, which means whatever is the accepted name, what the secondary sources generally refer to it as. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 16:56, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Good point, Dennis. For the record, anyone interested in the question may wish to see this thread in which I demonstrate, using the IP's own links, the invalidity of his or her premise. Now may I suggest we collapse this before wasting any more time? Rivertorch (talk) 18:58, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I totally agree. Although the real name probably doesn't contain the word "elementary", WP:COMMONNAME trumps it. Thanks Dennis, you're Yoda-wise as usual. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 00:15, 17 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

We seem to have consensus on the name, but as an additional point, I think it may be helpful to point out this picture of the front of the school building, in which the name reads "Sandy Hook Elementary". -Noha307 (talk) 20:09, 17 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't believe consensus can supersede a policy. WP:COMMONNAME is being misapplied here. That policy applies only to article titles. This issue has nothing to do with the article title; it is solely about how the name appears in Schools section table, where it should show the actual name, just as all the other schools are listed. And let's be clear, I have never asked for, or even suggested, that the article title be changed at Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting. That would violate WP:COMMONNAME. The only thing I've wanted all along is for the body of that article to appropriately note the actual name of the school, which, as Anna has also accepted and acknowledged, is Sandy Hook School. In fact, Anna is the one who provided the great PDF which further verified the actual school name, to supplement the other evidence.[4] As Treatment of alternative names makes clear, when an article title is a name, "significant alternative names for the topic should be mentioned in the article, usually in the first sentence or paragraph". "Sandy Hook School" is obviously a significant alternative name. Therefore, the name "Sandy Hook School" should be noted in the opening sentence of the other article. And in this article, the Schools section should list the name as Sandy Hook School, since it's not an article title. And for the record... yes, the signage on the front of the building says "Sandy Hook Elementary"; that indeed is a school nickname (alternative name). But as every official school document indicates, the actual name of the school is Sandy Hook School. As well, if you look at every teacher or administrator page on the website where the school name is mentioned, it always says Sandy Hook School, or its standard abbreviation SHS (not SHES). Even the latest announcement from the school district says, "All Newtown Public Schools except Sandy Hook School will re-open on Tuesday, December 18, 2012." Hopefully, these issues will be properly corrected in the two articles based on these policies. Thank you. --76.189.123.142 (talk) 00:16, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I forgot to add that many mainstream, reliable sources use the actual school name (Sandy Hook School) in their coverage. Here are just a few of them: [5][6][7][8][9][10] [11][12] I realize that Sandy Hook Elementary School is the more common usage in reliable sources, which is why I never asked for the article title to be changed at Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting. I just want it mentioned in the lede there, per Treatment of alternative names. Thanks. --76.189.123.142 (talk) 01:09, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Which article are we discussing here? For what it's worth, I wouldn't have a problem with Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting mentioning "Sandy Hook School" as an alternative name, and if you had asked for that in your edit request there and I had seen it, I probably would have made the addition. But this is the talk page of a different article. I'm unclear on what you want done here. I'm also a bit confused that you're not responding to the replies that editors (including me, on my talk page) have made regarding some of your assertions. For instance, every site you've linked to as evidence of the "official" name has been ambiguous, at best. I don't think we have clarity on what the official name is, and the preponderance of the evidence imo points to the official name containing the word "Elementary". Shrug. Maybe it's a moot point which name is official. Anyhow, are you requesting any change to this article? Rivertorch (talk) 15:48, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You said, "I wouldn't have a problem with Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting mentioning "Sandy Hook School" as an alternative name". Great. Then please do it. You of course do not need an edit request to make an edit in any article. You also said, "I'm unclear on what you want done here." Actually, I think I've made it abundantly clear what I want done. I said multiple times that I want the Schools section here to list the name as Sandy Hook School. I explained that WP:COMMONNAME was misapplied because it refers to article titles only, and I made the following two statements: (1) "This issue has nothing to do with the article title; it is solely about how the name appears in Schools section table, where it should show the actual name, just as all the other schools are listed and (2) "in this article, the Schools section should list the name as Sandy Hook School, since it's not an article title". So I think I've been very clear. The vast amount of evidence I have presented proves what the actual name of the school is, and I have also acknowledged what the common name is (for the title of the Sandy Hook shooting article). Anna has also shown and stated what the actual name of the school is but, sadly, has been ignored in this regard. None of the other three elementary schools use the word "Elementary" in their listings in the Schools section, even though all of them are also referred to by their nicknames, just like Sandy Hook. Hawley School, Middle Gate School,and Head O'Meadow School are referred to, respectively, as Hawley Elementary School, Middle Gate Elementary School, and Head O'Meadow Elementary School. None of the four elementary schools should have the word Elementary included in the Schools section. But for some odd reason, one does and three do not. --76.189.123.142 (talk) 18:05, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't been watching the other article or following your talk-page posts there, so I'm disinclined to blunder in over there in response to a request you've made here. As for this article, the change you're seeking is based on original research, specifically your own interpretation that the instances of one version of the name are more meaningful than the the instances of the other version of the name. As I said above, the sources you've provided to support your premise are ambiguous; each of them also supports the opposite premise. Since you're choosing to ignore that inconvenient fact, even after I've just specifically invited you to respond to it, I fear we're done here. Rivertorch (talk) 22:25, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The 76 IP got a short block over disruption about this bit of trivia, and if he's not careful, it could be a lot longer the next time. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:13, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Baseball Bugs, my participation here has been part of a civil conversation with other productive editors. In fact, anyone reading this thread can see that the only editor who has been disruptive is you. I suggest you focus on your own block history, which indicates harassment, incivility, personal attacks, and disruptive editing. It's very curious that you would come here simply to instigate trouble by solely posting a comment about a block I received. And for the record, the school's name is not trivial. In fact, Rivertorch was nice enough to say, "For what it's worth, I wouldn't have a problem with Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting mentioning "Sandy Hook School" as an alternative name, and if you had asked for that in your edit request there and I had seen it, I probably would have made the addition". --76.189.123.142 (talk) 00:27, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

As long as you don't go off the deep end this time, you'll be fine. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:05, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments like that only reinforce my points. I suggest you treat other editors in a civil manner and focus on content. But if you feel the need to continue this type of behavior, we'll see how that works out for you. --76.189.123.142 (talk) 04:28, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Stay calm and all will be well. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:03, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Since you still are not ready to address the concerns raised about your proposed change in a substantive way, I'm going to boldly box this up now rather than watch it turn into one more battleground. Rest assured that your request was considered carefully and assumed to be made in good faith. Maybe your premise is completely correct, but correct premises don't always carry the day at Wikipedia. Having made your point, it's usually best to just walk away. Feel free to make similar arguments elsewhere if you like, but please take care: I'm catching a strong whiff of fallen equine, and patience is not an unlimited commodity around here. Rivertorch (talk) 05:21, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Newtown High School[edit]

The Newtown High School now was occupied in 1970. You put that it was 1974. I was in the first graduating class that went through the first 4 years of the brand new school and graduated in 1974. I was also a student at Sandy Hook School in the early 1960's. We never called it elementary school back then. Just wanted you to know. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.183.220.24 (talk) 19:44, 18 December 2012 (UTC) I wanted to add that after I wrote this, I pulled out my old class pictures and report cards from Sandy Hook School. The pictures actually have Sandy Hook School on them. No elementary was on them. I went to Hawley School also. They did have elementary on them. Becky in Cookeville, TN. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.183.220.24 (talk) 20:27, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Newtown voters approve rebuilding of Sandy Hook Elementary[edit]

Here are some references that you can use for this article:

I removed the "Fallen teachers" section[edit]

I am reproducing it here in case anyone wants to merge the information into the "2012 school shooting" section.

Removed text - "Fallen teachers"[edit]

Teacher	Date of Death	Details
Victoria Leigh Soto	December 14, 2012	Murdered
Lauren Rousseau^{[FT 1]}^{[FT 2]}	December 14, 2012	Murdered

References

^ K. C. Baker, "Heartbreak & Healing: Man Remembers Girlfriend He Lost in Newtown School Shooting", People, December 14, 2014. Retrieved May 6, 2015.
^ Lauren Rousseau: 'The best year of her life'", Danbury News-Times, December 19, 2012. Retrieved May 6, 2015.

Discussion[edit]

I removed it because it gives the impression that these were the only teachers ever to be murdered in the history of the district. Even if that is true, it discounts the other 4 adults who were murdered, and it is disproportional to the amount of text given to the shooting overall in this article. The article is better overall without this information in the form it was presented. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 22:24, 17 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified (February 2018)[edit]

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[1] K. C. Baker, "Heartbreak & Healing: Man Remembers Girlfriend He Lost in Newtown School Shooting", People, December 14, 2014. Retrieved May 6, 2015.

[2] Lauren Rousseau: 'The best year of her life'", Danbury News-Times, December 19, 2012. Retrieved May 6, 2015.

[FT 1]

[FT 2]