Talk:Natalie Bauer-Lechner

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Classical music, which aims to improve, expand, copy edit, and maintain all articles related to classical music, that are not covered by other classical music related projects. Please read the guidelines for writing and maintaining articles. To participate, you can edit this article or visit the project page for more details.Classical musicWikipedia:WikiProject Classical musicTemplate:WikiProject Classical musicClassical music articles

Women in Music Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Women in Music, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Women in music on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Women in MusicWikipedia:WikiProject Women in MusicTemplate:WikiProject Women in MusicWomen in music articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Biography: Musicians

	Biography portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
	This article is supported by WikiProject Musicians (assessed as Low-importance).

Austria Low‑importance

	Austria portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Austria, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to articles about Austria on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please join the project.AustriaWikipedia:WikiProject AustriaTemplate:WikiProject AustriaAustria articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Brief über Mahlers Lieben[edit]

A recently discovered 59-page letter ("Letter About Mahler's Loves") by Bauer-Lechner throws new light on Mahler's early romantic relationships; "Chaste Ascetic? A Letter Details Mahler’s Love Life" by Allan Kozinn, The New York Times, 26 July 2013. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 07:29, 28 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"Second price?"[edit]

In the Bio section, what does this mean? "Both sisters graduated on 25 July 1872 with a second price." Second prize? Second place? Jessicapierce (talk) 17:41, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"Second prize". Page 7, Neue Freie Presse (28 July 1872): "Theater= und Kunstnachrichten ... [Conservatorium] – Bei dem am 25. d. M. im Conservatorium abgehaltenen Concurse der Ausbildungsclassen für Composition, Orgel, Streich- und Blas-Instrumente hat die Jury, bestehend aus den Herren: artistischer Director J. Hellmesberger, ... Den zweiten Preis erhielten ... die Violinschüler ... und die Fräulein Helene und Natalie Lechner ..." The whole thing seems utterly trivial and might well be omitted. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 01:36, 19 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Are Natalie Bauer-Lechner Memories on Mahler completely to be trusted?[edit]

In her book Natalie Bauer-Lechner (NBL) claims that she had known Mahler already during his studies at the Vienna Conservatory (1875-1878), or at least had observed him from a distance at the students’ orchestral rehearsals at the Conservatory. However, this seems very unlikely. In particular, she tells in details about a rehearsal of a symphony which Mahler allegedly had composed, and which was rejected by director Josef Hellmesberger Sr., because the handwritten orchestral parts were full of mistakes. Instead, Mahler composed a “Piano Suite" for which he was honoured at the graduation. The story sounds very convincing at first sight, although the Conservatory in their files has not recorded Mahler's Piano Suite, let alone the symphony. But what about the aforementioned orchestral rehearsals in which NBL allegedly participated, did they actually took place with her? I do not believe that, and I'm convinced, I am sorry to say, that the whole story has been invented by NBL. My reasons to doubt this particular statement are the following:

Firstly, NBL had married on December 27, 1875 (i. e. four months after Mahler had entered the Conservatory), and as a consequence she had become foster mother of her husband's three daughters (age 1 to 11 years) from his first marriage. As a result, one can easily imagine, she must have had her hands full with the day-to-day care of husband and children, and the household keeping in general. Furthermore, it is also a question of whether her husband would have allowed his young wife to mix up with young men and women of her own age. Note: Of course, this presupposes that her marriage was a real marriage, and not a fictitious one, as it may well has been. I will later return to this somewhat sensitive question. Secondly, NBL writes in her book that she and her one-year younger sister Helena (aka Ellen), despite NBL's new status as a housemother, occasionally played as guests in the Conservatory’s Student Orchestra. However, this statement is highly doubtful, because principally and as a rule of thumb, women in the 19th century were completely excluded from playing in Austrian symphony orchestras for many decades to come.

Finally - and perhaps most devastating for NBL's statement - it seems as if she is contradicting herself, because in 1907, i. e. about 35 years after the events described above, she vehemently opposes against this apparently still existing injustice towards women in her book „Fragmente. Gelerntes und Gelebtes“. She writes: “The fact that women at the Conservatory in Vienna - in retrogression and in contrast to music schools of the whole world - are even denied to participate in the Student Orchestra’s exercises/rehearsals [Schul-Orchesterübungen], gives shouting proof of the reactionary spirit and degenerate condition of this main institute of the former "Music City".” (Verlag Rudolf Lechner & Sohn, Vienna 1907, footnote, p. 222).

[original German: Daß man in Wien am Konservatorium - im Rückschritt und Gegensatz zu den Musikschulen der ganzen Welt - Mädchen selbst an den Schul-Orchesterübungen die Teilnahme verwehrt, gibt von dem reaktionären Geist und herabgekommenen Zustand des Hauptinstituts der ehemaligen „Musikstadt" schreienden Beweis.]

Note: I have not examined this question in detail but I am very much inclined to believe her latter statement, since it was only in the last decade of the 20th century that women were admitted to play in Austrian orchestras, in the Vienna Philharmonic only in 1997. It is by the way very characteristic of the situation that during Mahler's three student years, only 5 female students, of a total of 85, studied an orchestral instrument: three violinists and two harpists. The other studied piano (58), singing (18) and theory & composition (4). knud.martner@gmail.com 85.81.32.168 (talk) 08:28, 21 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]