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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: Not MovedMike Cline (talk) 10:58, 2 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Mormon foodways → Mormon cuisine – (1) As far as I can tell, the phrases "Mormon cuisine" and "Mormon foodways" mean the same thing; (2) the former phrase seems much more popular than the later–judging by Google hits; Google Scholar has both phrases as very rare but "Mormon cuisine" is slightly more common (13 hits) than "Mormon foodways" (10 hits); Google News search gets 11 hits for "Mormon cuisine" but only 2 for "Mormon foodways"; (3) most people know what "cuisine" means, but "foodways" is an unusual term belonging to social science jargon, most people are unfamiliar with it–even though most people can guess at what it means roughly, they are still going to be wondering what the difference is between it and the more common term "cuisine". Alternatively, if people don't agree a move is appropriate, I think it would be worthwhile to add some discussion of the two terms to the article and the difference between them and why one term is more appropriate than the other. Mr248 (talk) 09:07, 25 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose This article doesn't so much describe Cuisine, as in a style of cooking with specific recipes and techniques, so much general culture and history relating to how Mormons (but also colocated non-Mormons) grow and prepare food. For example, everything in Mormon_foodways#Foodways_in_Illinois could be applied to anyone who lived in that region in that era and is not specifically "Mormon cuisine": "similar to other frontier cuisines". Section Foodstuffs/ingredients likewise describes how many settlers to the West had to farm and gather, without really being a specific cuisine of the Mormons. Section Contemporary foodways includes traditions that Mormons, more specifically Utah Mormons, hold, like gender roles – not necessarily cuisine – but moreover also discusses Utah and Rocky Mountain regional cuisine that doesn't necessarily have to do with Mormons. And then it finally notes that Mormonism is global and people eat different things around the world. Honestly, a lot of this feels like inappropriate synthesis, since little has to do with the religion – or even the history of its adherents. "Fry sauce, a mixture of ketchup and mayonnaise, possibly originated in Utah. The "distinctive dipping sauce" is often served in burger joints there" is especially inappropriate and irrelevant. Cuisine_of_the_Southwestern_United_States#Utah and Cuisine of the Western United States could certainly use some work, but this article needs to better distinguish between what's Mormon and what's Utah or what's mid-1800s Pioneer. Anyway, I agree that "foodways" is not a common term and may not be the best title, but it absolutely shouldn't be "cuisine". Reywas92Talk 20:15, 25 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hmmm but most of the article is actually history and still not even "culture". This title is similar to the source Plain but Wholesome: Foodways of the Mormon Pioneers. Rachel Helps (BYU), thoughts? Reywas92Talk 03:13, 26 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, thanks for the ping. I am opposed to a change in the page name. When I wrote this page, our folklore curator advised me to use the term "foodways". As others have noted, the foods that Mormons ate and eat aren't particularly unique, with a few notable exceptions. I believe that only unique sets of what people eat are called "cuisine". Foodways encompasses the techniques people used to make food and how their culture affects that. A book that came out recently that has similar content is This is the Plate: Utah Food Traditions. Maybe Mormon Food Traditions could be a compromise if everyone really hates "foodways"? The word "Mormon" encompasses a cultural identity as well as a religious orientation. Does everything on Jewish cuisine need to be a direct result of Jewish dietary laws? No. Not every part of Mormon culture will have a direct connection to movements within the Latter Day Saint movement or their histories. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 16:47, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Do you think, as an alternative to moving, you could add some brief discussion to somewhere in the article explaining the difference between "foodways" vs "cuisine", and why "foodways" is the more appropriate term? I think it would be helpful for readers who are unfamiliar with the term "foodways" (which is probably the vast majority of readers), and would basically answer the reason why I created this move request Mr248 (talk) 06:46, 28 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I wikilinked to the Wiktionary definition of foodways. If there is consensus that you and other editors would like more info on "foodways" on the page, I can add more. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 17:34, 28 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
What gives each particular cuisine its distinctive character? Factors such as what kinds of foodstuffs are readily available and food storage practices (such as necessity to preserve foods by salting/pickling/etc) have a major causative factor in making each cuisine what it is. So I don't think that kind of historical information would necessarily be out of place on an article about a cuisine. Discussions of European cuisines commonly talk about how differences in availability of cooking fuel in Northern vs Southern Europe lead to differences in cuisines (northern European cuisines historically had more plentiful fuel sources which encouraged people to cook things for longer, whereas southern European cuisines had less fuel available due to greater deforestation which encouraged faster cooking). A lot of stuff (maybe not all) which some scholars label "foodways" can be fitted into "history of cuisines" instead. Mr248 (talk) 12:51, 26 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, broadly agreeing with Reywas92. "Foodways" is a commonly used term among food anthropologists and historians to refer to not just dishes and techniques, but agricultural processes and trade practices that support those dishes. The article as currently constituted is absolutely about foodways, not cuisine. Now, we probably should have a separate discussion about if this article is appropriate generally, if its content should be moved to other more general articles, etc. I would support creating the articles Mormon food culture, Mormon cuisine, and perhaps even Food in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and/or Food in the Latter Day Saint movement to be redirects to this article, for ease of navigation for readers looking for this information. - - mathmitch7(talk/contribs) 12:01, 26 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comment If cuisine is not the appropriate term here, why does the article itself use it? For example, Mormon foodways in Illinois were similar to other frontier cuisines seems to imply that "Mormon foodways" are a "cuisine", by speaking of other frontier cuisines–if Mormon foodways is not a frontier cuisine, then the word "other" isn't necessary. Or, The advent of supermarkets and canned goods in the 20th century homogenized food in the Rocky Mountain area, including Mormon cuisine, to include "American" staples such as soda and French fries, which explicitly acknowledges the existence of a "Mormon cuisine". I think, there are two logical possibilities (1) "Mormon cuisine" is a misnomer, so the article should avoid any language which suggests there is such a thing – except to explain why there isn't; (2) "Mormon cuisine" is a valid category, in which case it would seem logical to move the article to that title after all. So, to those who disagree with moving the article, do you agree with (1), and support removing the current language in the article which suggests "Mormon cuisine" is a thing? Mr248 (talk) 07:00, 28 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm fine with removing language implying that there is a Mormon cuisine. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 17:34, 28 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Rachel Helps (BYU) I haven't touched the rest of the article wording as yet, but I added a paragraph at the end of the introductory section explaining the difference between foodways and cuisine, and why the former term is more appropriate and the subject of the article. Are you okay with that? Also, I changed your link to foodways Wiktionary entry to be to the foodways Wikipedia article, since I think it is generally better for Wikipedia to link to a Wikipedia article than a Wiktionary entry if both exist. The paragraph I added did briefly explain what "foodways" are; even though we have a link to the article to do so, I think a brief explanation is nonetheless in order since it is not a term most readers would be familiar with – they can always read the other article for more detailed discussion. If you are okay with this, I will go ahead and withdraw this move request. Also, I think we should redirect "Mormon cuisine" to point to this article. Mr248 (talk) 07:08, 1 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Mr248 I'm fine with the addition if you can add citations for the information in it that is not in the body of the page. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 15:56, 2 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Hi Reywas92, I think fry sauce should be included on this page as part of Mormon foodways. I believe that foods popular in the Mormon regional area should be included on this page. I think from the discussion above, we established that "Mormon" encompasses a cultural identity. That cultural identity is sometimes associated with a region of the United States that includes Utah. This isn't a page solely for dishes unique to Mormonism, although I would argue that fry sauce is one of the most salient foods, along with green Jell-O and funeral potatoes. I also think that the Jell-O haiku contest was a useful demonstration of the dish as culturally important to people in Utah. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 19:42, 5 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
[1] and other sources I found say there's a variety of ways Jell-O has been celebrated in the state, so I don't think the contest is particularly significant, and the link to the Senate resolution should be enough. [2] says "Possibly the single biggest factor in fry sauce’s rampant cultural ubiquity in Utah is that unlike other regional culinary icons like “funeral potatoes,” fry sauce is not generally seen as having originated in Mormon culture." [3] says "[It’s] something that Mormons and non-Mormons in Utah share as part of a state identity." If mentioned, it should briefly focus on that but without the details like competing origins. That belongs in a regional cuisine article or just the main Fry sauce page, not one about a religious group. Mormons outside Utah do not share this part of their cultural identity. Reywas92Talk 20:04, 5 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Reywas92 You make a good point. I don't think that fry sauce being important to non-Mormons is a reason to exclude it from this page. Could we include information on fry sauce on both pages? Or maybe fry sauce needs its own page at this point? Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 17:09, 9 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It does have its own page Fry sauce. What would be fair here may be a passing mention as cultural food popularized Utah, sharing a sentence with any others, without its history that is irrelevant to Mormons. Reywas92Talk 13:42, 10 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Whoops, sorry for spacing out on the existence of the fry sauce page. I moved the information I had previously added here on its origins to the fry sauce page. Are you cool with the sentence on fry sauce I added here? Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 16:16, 11 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah that's good thanks! Reywas92Talk 16:20, 11 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
