Talk:Mogilev Conference

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Good articleMogilev Conference has been listed as one of the Warfare good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
January 25, 2018Good article nomineeListed
On this day...A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "On this day..." column on September 24, 2023.

Copyedit questions...[edit]

  • "Centre" or "Center"? both are used... we should settle on one spelling. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:19, 24 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Bach-Zelewski's session was entitled "The Capture of Kommissars and Partisans in 'Scouring-Actions', referring to the activities of the SS Cavalry Brigade in the "Pripyat swamps" punitive operation." - what was the title of his talk - there is no ending " to make it clear.. I THINK the title was "The Capture of Kommissars and Partisans in 'Scouring-Actions'", but am not sure. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:26, 24 December 2017 (UTC) Got this one by checking with the source. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:50, 24 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • need to define "filtration camps"... I know what it is but the casual reader isn't going to have a clue. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:31, 24 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The conference marked a dramatic increase in atrocities by the Wehrmacht units against Jews and other civilians in the last three months of 1941." - I think it marked a dramatic increase for the rest of the war... not just the last three months of 1941. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:33, 24 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Beorn studied the period of 1941 - early 1942. So I think it's better to keep the dates that he covered. In any case, the "Holocaust by bullet" was largely over by mid-1942, IIRC; the remaining Jewish population was concentrated in ghettos and the German tactics changed to deportation to death camps. K.e.coffman (talk) 18:38, 25 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • link for "1st SS Cavalry Regiment"? Ealdgyth - Talk 15:49, 24 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
See: SS Cavalry Brigade (SS-Kavallerie-Brigade). Kierzek (talk) 15:52, 24 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, but for the non-military person - either a link to that or a quick blurb in this article saying that the 1st SS Cavalry was a constituent part of the SS Cavalry Brigade would be useful. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:56, 24 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think an expansion of the coverage of what other talks/presentations/etc would be useful. I note that Beorn's got some additional details on what was covered - the fact that there were sand table presentations on various tactical exercises, the fact that there was an afternoon field exercise that watched the surrounding of a village and distribution of leaflets, and the third field exercise on the last morning. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:56, 24 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think that Beorn's point about the document produced at the end needs to be borne (oooh, bad pun) out more - he says "Much of it was devoted to the nuts and bolts of conducting various forms of anti-partisan operations." (p. 102). The article probably should also cover Beorn's point "The executive summary of the Mogilev Conference did not specifically mention Jews." but that at least one attendee took away from the Conference that "'where the Partisan is, there is the Jew. Where the Jew is, there is the Partisan.'" (p. 104). Ealdgyth - Talk 16:01, 24 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Beorn notes that the commander of the 2nd SS Cavalry Regiment was not invited, perhaps because he was not viewed as extreme enough on the "Jewish question", as he only massacred Jewish males, and not all Jews. Probably an important detail. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:02, 24 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Some good expansion thoughts, Ealdgyth. I can add the blub on the 1st SS Cavalry. I am sure @K.e.coffman: can assist, as well. Although, given tomorrow is Christmas, it may be a day or two before much is done. Kierzek (talk) 16:05, 24 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
No hurry. K.e. coffman had asked for a copyedit from GOCE which didn't go well. I noticed the problem and offered to copyedit the article for him, since I am at least familiar with the subject matter and (obviously) have some of the sources. I'm digging through other sources now, but not turning up anything that's not already covered in greater detail in Beorn. There is nothing in Arad's The Holocaust in the Soviet Union, for example. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:09, 24 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Beorn has a good analysis of the attendees o pages 96-97, which might be usefully summarized. He also mentions that the total number of attendees was 61. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:17, 24 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Beorn notes that the conference document was sent to all company-level units in the army group's area of operations - including to units that did not send representatives to the conference. He notes that "its lessons both became approved policy and reached units that had not had representatives in Mogilev." (p. 103). Beorn also notes that "Greater collaboration between the SD and the Wehrmacht also became more evident after the conference." (p. 107). Ealdgyth - Talk 16:17, 24 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Another good quote is on page 108 "The conference instructed the Wehrmacht to intentionally target Jews in its anti-partisan operations." and that the results of the conference that the "anti-partisan war was the perfect vehicle for harnessing the combat power of the army to help solve the 'Jewish problem'." Beorn notes that von Brauchitsch's "Guidelines for the Fighting of Partisans" that he issued to the entire German army one month after the conference included a verbatim copy of part of Schenckendorff's summary of the conference document. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:21, 24 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I was thinking you could add something like this: The SS Cavalry Brigade was made up of the 1st and 2nd SS Cavalry Regiments, which in July and August 1941 had carried out the Pripyat swamps (punitive operation). That operation has since been considered a turning point in the transition from "selective mass murder" to the wholesale extermination of the Jewish population in occupied areas. (I can add the cite, or you will see where I got it from in a prior addition of mine to SS Cavalry Brigade article. Then you can add the tie-in part about "the commander of the 2nd SS Cavalry Regiment was not invited, perhaps because he was not viewed as extreme enough on the "Jewish question", as he only massacred Jewish males, and not all Jews." I must go for now, real life calls, Cheers, Kierzek (talk) 16:33, 24 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Assessment section[edit]

I should probably add an "Assessment" section based on analysis by Beorn. The article was kind of bare bones; there's more meat now, so an analysis section would be appropriate. I will work on that next.

Thank you for the helpful suggestions so far! K.e.coffman (talk) 18:38, 25 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Review so far[edit]

I think I addressed all of the comments. Additional feedback would be welcome! K.e.coffman (talk) 18:28, 27 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Source: A Calculus of Complicity[edit]

Thank you for the work so far! I also have the below article by Beorn, which is likely adopted from his book Marching into Darkness:

  • “A Calculus of Complicity: The Wehrmacht, the Anti-Partisan War, and the Final Solution in White Russia, 1941–42”. By: Beorn, Waitman W. Central European History (Cambridge University Press / UK). June 2011, Vol. 44 Issue 2, p308-337. 30p.
Abstract: The article presents an examination into the complicity and collaboration of the German Wehrmacht with the Jewish Holocaust within the military campaigns of World War II. Details are given highlighting the involvement of the German military's anti-partisan efforts on the Eastern Front and how it led to the Wehrmacht's direct execution of Jewish civilians in Belarus. Subjects discussed include (…) the Mogilev anti-partisan conference held in September 1941 and its decision to treat Jewish civilians as military targets. DOI: 10.1017/S0008938911000057.

I could email it to anyone interested. K.e.coffman (talk) 18:13, 24 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

If it comes from his RS book, I would use that. Ealdgyth has some very good ideas and further inclusion of Beorn's work would be a welcome addition to the article. Kierzek (talk) 20:18, 24 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Slight clarification; the article appeared first, in 2011, and the material was used in the 2014 book. K.e.coffman (talk) 01:56, 3 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I assumed it did; the book is still a superior RS source for the same information; a more substantial review process would have been done and it is a newer publication of information. If there is some different information given on some point in the article, which you want to add, then by all means use it. I don't believe anyone will question the source. Kierzek (talk) 16:45, 3 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review[edit]

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Mogilev Conference/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Alex Shih (talk · contribs) 14:00, 4 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Preliminary note[edit]

  • Another well-written article and a work of collaboration involving many established writers, thank you all. I will be going through each sections thoroughly and try to find any potential concerns before doing the GA checklist. Alex Shih (talk) 14:31, 4 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Lede[edit]

  • I don't see any concerns. The lede is well written, and the length is appropriate considering the scope and the length of the article itself.

Infobox[edit]

  • I am tried to verify the death count of 32 but was unable to do so. Perhaps it's because I cannot view page 10, may I request an excerpt of the source?
I don't have the book on hand at the moment, but here's the excerpt from the 2011 article (page 323) listed on the Talk page:
  • "In the afternoon, the collection of officers observed an actual operation conducted by 7 Company, Police Battalion 322. Approximately fourteen kilometers northwest of Mogilev, a town was searched and its inhabitants interrogated. A summary written afterward stated, “Suspicious strangers to the village [Ortsfremde] and a few Jews were discovered (32 executions).”[77] Supporting the police was a sixteen-man detachment from the SD.[78] The war diary of Police Battalion 322, which carried out the operation, provides more telling detail. “Strangers to the village, in particular partisans, could not be found. Instead, the investigation of the population revealed 13 Jewish men, 27 Jewish women, and 11 Jewish children. Of these 13 men and 19 women were executed with the help of the SD.”[79]
I can add this citation to the article. More details on it are here: Talk:Mogilev_Conference#Source: A Calculus of Complicity. K.e.coffman (talk) 23:46, 4 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds good, thank you! Alex Shih (talk) 05:54, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am not sure if {{Infobox event}} is the best infobox template here. Personally, I would even consider other options such as {{Infobox civilian attack}} instead. What do you think?
There's a "Holocaust event" template (see for example Babi Yar), but I think that the current template is okay. It was an organised event, with the field exercises, one of which resulted in the deaths listed. K.e.coffman (talk) 23:46, 4 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough, thank you. Visually I think the casualties section in the current infobox looks slightly out of place, but it isn't really a concern. Alex Shih (talk) 05:54, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Agree that’s it’s somewhat incongruous, i.e. one would not expect a military training conference to include shooting of civilians who had not been convicted of a crime. But it is what it is, so it seems appropriate to include in the infobox. K.e.coffman (talk) 02:45, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Background[edit]

  • Comprehensive, well-written, reliably sourced; did not spot any outstanding concerns.

The conference[edit]

  • The commander of the 2nd SS Cavalry Regiment...: I believe this was Franz Magill; wouldn't it be better if his name is mentioned?
  • ...reacting to unforeseen situations: I think the wording here is slightly ambiguous. I assume it's unforeseen situations when carrying out mass murders?
  • About the village of Knyazhichi: I was wondering if something can be done to help the readers to visualize where the village is located; I am tempted to just record what Marching into Darkness says, "11 miles (18 km) northwest of Minsk". Since Mogilev is 113 miles away from Minsk, isn't that quite a travel for such minor field exercise? I wonder if the source explains anything about this. Alex Shih (talk) 05:54, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Makes sense. I’ve added Magill as Franz Magill; he has an article on de.wiki.
  2. I took it out; it’s vague and non-informative.
  3. Re: Knyazhichi – I believe it’s a typo / error in the book; it seems implausible that the conference attendees would pick a location a 100+ miles away, as you point out. The article by Beorn (“A Calculus of Complicity”, p. 323) does not mention the locality by name, but states: “In the afternoon, the collection of officers observed an actual operation conducted by 7 Company, Police Battalion 322. Approximately fourteen kilometers northwest of Mogilev, a town was searched and its inhabitants interrogated. …” I’ve located Knyazhitsy / Kniazitch, which is indeed ~9 miles NW of Mogilev, so it must be it. I’ve added the locality as Knyazhitsy [ru]; there’s a page on ru.wiki for it. K.e.coffman (talk) 02:45, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Conference summary and aftermath[edit]

  • No concerns.

Assessment[edit]

  • No concerns.

Checklist[edit]

  • K.e.coffman, I will complete the GA checklist once these three minor remarks are addressed. Thank you for the excellent article, and my sincere apologies for the long delay. Best, Alex Shih (talk) 05:54, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Checked Well written: The article had went through several major copyediting; certainly well written.
  2. Checked Verfiable: Every paragraph is supported with inline citation; no unreferenced claims found.
  3. Checked Broad in its coverage: For a relatively unknown conference, the coverage is broad by all means.
  4. Checked Neutrality: The article conforms to neutrality standards.
  5. Checked Stable: Minimal changes have taken place since the last copyediting was done, which was in the past month.
  6. Checked Images: While there are no images in this article, considering the subject matter, I don't believe there is a perceived need. I am passing this article as a Good Article based on the criteria. Thank you again for the excellent article and your patience. Alex Shih (talk) 16:54, 25 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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