Talk:Maude Adams/Archive 1

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Biography assessment rating comment[edit]

WikiProject Biography Assessment

The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. -- Yamara 08:17, 26 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

References[edit]

I blanked a paragraph and an anonymous comment requesting references. Lets find some references before restoring. --Duk 04:49, 17 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Lesbian?[edit]

I've looked all over and I can find no references stating that Adams was a lesbian. I've removed the link that was in the article as it points only to a page full of photos. If no references for this claim can be found, I will remove the reference altogether. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 03:47, 3 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm still unable to locate any concrete references that Adams was lesbian. Does anyone have anything concrete? Everything I can find is simply "it is thought that she may have been" and other such vague comments. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 02:01, 23 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In a book entitled Gilded Girls: Women entertainers of the Old West by JoAnn Chatier and Chris Euss, they imply that she was straight. The book said she had an unrequited love for her mentor and manager, Charles Froman but she didn't believe in mixing business with personal life. According to this book, Maude Adams was know for being fiecely protective of her private life and was very distrustful of the media 15.251.169.70 20:47, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The fan site in the external links section is detailed. It makes it virtually certain that she was a lesbian. Bearing in mind that homosexuality was rarely openly admitted then, I don't know what more evidence could be needed. Mercedes de Acosta's Wikipedia page states that the two of them had a lesbian relationship. F W Nietzsche (talk) 20:41, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That fan site is not likely a reliable source. It's possible some of the sources mentioned there could be considered reliable, but they would have to be individually evaluated. In general, theses are not considered reliable sources unless they are cited by multiple sources considered reliable. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 21:03, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Maude Adams had a relationship with a successful plumbing contractor named John Cooney, who also never married and upon his death, left the majority of his fortune to Maude. He was my grandfather's uncle and my grandfather worked for him as an apprentice. My grandmother often spoke of John Cooney, who was my grandfather's namesake, and preserved his published book of plumbing inventions and passed it on to my mother. nleo806Nleo806 (talk) 16:18, 30 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

As that is an anecdotal reference, we can't really use it in the article. Thank you for the comments, though. ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 16:36, 30 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Nleo806, if you have a newspaper article, or anything else published about your Great grand uncle and Maude Adams, that would be very helpful. Please let us know. -- Ssilvers (talk) 23:28, 30 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Maude Adams An lntimate Portrait by Phyllis Robbins. Turner classic Movies Biography for Maude Adams. I think you will find she was a very lnnocent Heterosexul with little sexual experience, but not a Lesbian remember 100 years ago women in public did not sleep around with men due to terrible social stigma. The reference to her being a Lesbian seems to come from a source on the Maude Adams page largely rejected by others on Wikipedia concerning actresses mentioned in the book quoted as reference. See also Encyclopedia Britannica In detail.

Hope this helps best of luck. Andrew Dock 65 (talk) 17:45, 7 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Lead section[edit]

I'm a little concerned about these sentences from the lead as I think the sourcing is a little dubious and I think it's not quite in line with WP:NPOV.

" While the title "Best Actress of Her Day" almost indisputably belongs to Ethel Barrymore, Maude Adams was without a doubt its most beloved and most successful."

I don't think it's relevant to bring Ethel Barrymore into this. There doesn't seem to be a comparison between the two actresses. Barrymore is not mentioned again in the article. I will remove this sentence partly for this reason, but partly because of the sources cited. TCM's "Starring Ethel Barrymore" says she "was considered one of the greatest actresses of her generation." but it doesn't who considered her so. Nobody is quoted or even attributed. [feed://www.radiotimezone.com/RSS/Music.xml OTR Swing & Jazz Music RTZ Podcast] also says "Many today consider her to be the greatest actress of her generation." Again, it doesn't identify any of the "many", and I think it's also important to note that the purpose of this site is not to provide historical information about the performers it mentions, rather it is designed to summarize the available podcasts and generate interest in them. That's not to say they're wrong, just that they aren't necessarily qualified to make such a statement.

Looking at the sources used to support the statements that Adams was "without a doubt" (sorry, we have to allow room for doubt) "its most beloved and successful" :

  • American Theater Guide says "in 1918, she announced her retirement, although she was still unquestionably one of the theatre's most popular stars." That seems like a fair citation.
  • Media Utah doesn't say anything of the kind. The closest it comes to praising her is "was a very popular stage actress in the early twentieth century." Doesn't claim anything more than that, so it's not a fair source.
  • Ada Patterson's biography. A very long article, but the only thing I could see (and I may have missed more) is "Maude Adams is the biggest moneymaker, and, inferentially, the most popular of all'the women stars on the American stage to-day." While Ada Patterson infers Adams' popularity we're taking it the extra step by coming right out and saying it. As biographies go, this one is pretty hagiographic, but it refers to her popularity so I guess it's acceptable.
  • Trivia Library calls her "most popular actress of the American theater during the early 1900s". Sounds fair to me.

I think it needs to be reworded. Some of these articles mention that it was her charm and personality that made her popular rather than her acting ability, and perhaps just rewording it to convey this, would be suitable. It's an interesting observation by her biographers. Certainly, some of the articles relate episodes where her acting was criticised but she succeeded just the same, so we have to be careful - the lead extends unqualified praise. "Legions of fans" is a bit too strong also. Her popularity is best demonstrated by the bottom line - her earning power. Rossrs (talk) 13:51, 20 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Peter Pan[edit]

The lead states that the role of Peter Pan was Adams's greatest success; the main text states that she played it "with little success". Which is correct? Tim riley (talk) 21:23, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'd say the first is. Maybe the play didn't open big in Washington, but it was successful in New York, and Adams was strongly associated with the role for years. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 22:26, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Arthur Brown[edit]

I have removed the Arthur Brown anecdote about Adams's mother until a WP:Reliable source can be found that verifies the information. The information is not about Adams, but only about her mother, so it is not essential unless it can be very clearly referenced. -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:07, 9 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Lesbian (again)[edit]

There are some publications that claim that she was homosexual. It is discussed in one of the chapters of 'Strange Duets: Impresarios and Actresses in the American Theatre' by Kim Marra https://books.google.com/books?id=JjMy0699SfIC&printsec=frontcover&dq=isbn:1587297418&hl=en&sa=X&ei=oS1bVdn7BaLIsQTIsoDgAg&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false although the pages are not available for preview on Google Books. Adams is also listed as an entry in some LGBT themed encyclopedic works, such as 'The Gay & Lesbian Theatrical Legacy' by Harbin and Marra https://books.google.com/books?id=f0fbSlGN8uUC&pg=PA18 and 'Queers in History' compiled by Keith Stern https://books.google.com/books?id=TF0Y4uACdMkC&pg=PA4. In response to Nleo806's anecdotal evidence, if the only evidence Nleo806 has is the fact that his/her relative willed a significant part of their fortune to Adams, it really doesn't mean much with regards to Adams' personal life. Anyone can will their fortune to anyone they want and it's rather one-sided. A man could be a huge admirer of Angelina Jolie and end up willing all his money to her after his death; that doesn't mean that he and Jolie had a relationship. In fact, it is not unheard of for people to will their fortunes to people they have never met but greatly admired. One example is Frank Soyer who bequeathed his entire estate to Eva Le Gallienne https://books.google.com/books?id=EzZTBNEVM3AC&pg=PA254. 96.242.57.226 (talk) 13:09, 19 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! You certainly have enough material here to make an argument that she was a lesbian. Can you please try to put something together? If you want help with formatting the refs, I'm happy to help with that. Please make sure that you state which page numbers you are referring to in these books. -- Ssilvers (talk) 15:37, 19 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
If you can't prove she was a lesbian--and remember, just because one doesn't marry doesn't mean the person is gay or lesbian--then delete the damned section out or I will do it. Deleted the section because it is unsubstantiated gossip by some LGBT wanting to make a point. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.100.36.250 (talk) 00:17, 28 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I restored the well-cited material that you deleted. You have not explained why you are deleting information cited in at least two separate published books. . -- Ssilvers (talk) 00:55, 28 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Encyclopedia Britannica does not list her as a Lesbian also nothing in you tube videos on her suggested she was a lesbian. Andrew Dock 65 (talk) 16:59, 7 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Maude Adams An lntimate Portrait by Phyllis Robbins. Turner Classic Movies. Biography for Maude Adams. Both references Encyclopedia Britannica.

I think you will find she was a very lnnocent Heterosexul woman with little experience of men but not a Lesbian. Remember 100 years ago there was a terrible social stigma concerning women in public sleeping around with men. I hope this helps best of luck. Andrew Dock 65 (talk) 17:55, 7 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Finally the reference to Maude Adams being a Lesbian comes from book sources you mention on her page but others on Wikipedia do not trust the sources mentioned and so many of the actresses listed in the books are not in their Wikipedia pages portrayed as Lesbians, so if the sources are not correct on other actresses they may not be correct regarding Maude Adams? Andrew Dock 65 (talk) 18:02, 7 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Please don't write things twice on Talk pages. It just wastes everyone's time. Why do you think the Robbins book would be more persuasive than the other books with respect to Adams's private life? Note that Robbins was a friend of Adams's and seems to have shied away from discussing intimate details of Adams's life, especially anything that she might have considered embarrassing or risque.-- Ssilvers (talk) 03:56, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Dead links[edit]

Many of the refs on this article have gone dead. -- Ssilvers (talk) 16:09, 24 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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