Talk:Liverpool–Manchester lines

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Wigan[edit]

I removed the link to the "Railway Junction Diagrams" site [1]: I couldn't see how a diagram of railways in Wigan contributed to this article. Maybe one about railways/railway stations in Wigan would be more suited to it? --RFBailey 21:27, 25 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It was intended as a reference showing the connection between the 2 lines, forming the 3rd route.--TrackInspector 23:02, 25 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

WikiProject class rating[edit]

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 14:18, 9 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Major edit[edit]

I have just performed a major edit on this article which involved copy-editing it, greatly expanding it, adding references and removing false information eg. that Class 508s will run between Liverpool and Manchester when the line is electrified. This will definitely not happen since 508s are 750V DC only, and the line is being electrified with 25kV AC OHL.

Feel free to undo any of the changes I have made and continue expanding the article.

Raywil (talk) 23:03, 25 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"The elecrification of this route will also offer electric haulage options for freight trains, giving a secondary route to the WCML from the Liverpool docks." I've read this sentence a number of times and feel it needs a little clarification. The dock branch will remain - I presume - diesel hauled. The second electrified connection will therefore effectively be from Edge Hill as dock traffic will need a change of traction there, as it does now. In practice, the benefits of the reinstalled Olive Mount chord would be minimised and dock traffic operations complicated somewhat. However, I can see real benefits if you take the final word "docks" out - i.e. Liverpool/London (and vice versa) trains calling at Warrington Bank Quay rather than Runcorn, with the enhanced connection facilities available there. Another thought - not for the article but for us anoraks. Dual voltage Thameslink stock would allow an instant solution for the continuation of Manchester services onto Merseyrail lines (just as the proposed 507/508 replacements would provide) but without the inevitable delays waiting for new stock). Direct semi-fast Manchester to Wirral via Liverpool trains? Commuter heaven... JohnB57 (talk) 17:08, 31 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"The electrification of this route will also offer electric haulage options for freight trains, giving a secondary route to the WCML from the Liverpool docks." This from the official electrification document. They state electrification to Liverpool docks, which makes sense, as the freight trains can used the WCML, but it does not state that the Canada Dock branch is being electrified. But the only line to the docks is this line so the line must be scheduled for electrification. If that occurs old station could be rebuilt on the line. The line is only about five miles long, so not a great expense. Duel voltage Thameslink trains being transferred to Merseyrail can run on the track. 94.194.19.241 (talk) 16:08, 27 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah I'll change the sentence to say 'from Liverpool' instead. Slightly off topic, but if the Canada Dock branch was to be electrified, not only would this benefit freight services, but with considerable insvestment, the stations along the line could be reopened with Merseyrail services running from Lime Street to Bootle. Obviously the 20mph speed limit would need to be increased and new stations would be quite costly, but I see it as being a worthwhile investment, especially seeing that there are plans for LFC to build a new football stadium along the line. I'm not sure what you're getting at regarding Warrington Bank Quay rather than Runcorn - I think the London trains will still go via Runcorn as it's more direct and Warrington Bank Quay already receives services from Liverpool, as mentioned in the article, and WCML trains from London/Birmingham going further north to Preston and Scotland etc. I don't see how direct Manchester to Wirral services would work with only the northern of the two Liverpool - Manchester lines being electrified. Dual-voltage trains would need to run on AC from Manchester to Edge Hill, then reverese onto the Runcorn line through Liverpool South Parkway branching off to Hunts Cross, then switch to DC thrid rail and reverese through Liverpool South Parkway again, albeit on the lower level lines, continue through to Liverpool Central, then take the ECS 5mph line connecting Central high level and James Street on the loop. The only feasible way of having direct Wirral - Manchester services would be to bore through to the currently disued Victoria or Wapping tunnels, although personally (coming from the Wirral) I don't see a problem with changing trains at Lime Street.
Disused tunnels diagram:
File:FutureMerseyrail.jpg
Raywil (talk) 19:34, 31 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'd assumed that the 2007 revisit of the original 70s Merseyrail plan to reopen Wapping Tunnel, with a connection to the Wirral line would go ahead (I believe work on this actually started in the 70s) - as you say, it doesn't make any sense to prat about reversing at Edge Hill, etc. You're probably right about Bank Quay, but routing some services that way would at least give the possibility of direct London services for St Helens. I live in Huddersfield so my interest is the occasional connection to Glasgow that's timetabled for Warrington with the walk or bus between Central and Bank Quay, which in itself is not a big issue but it can add an hour or so onto the journey as connections rarely pan out the way they should. I guess in future, those connections are likely to be made at Manchester however. Apologies for the ramble - the possibilities are interesting though!JohnB57 (talk) 10:58, 1 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Work did start on the Edge Hill Spur in the 1970. The electrification of the Lpool-Mcr line will put this necessary project back on line. It creates an east-west Crossrail bringing the east of the city onto the electrified sections. You are right it is possible then for Mcr trains to enter the Liverpool underground section and run onto the Wirral using the 1890s James St to Central tunnel. Liverpool Central would need two more platforms of which there is space - it needs them now because of overcrowding - DfT will not fund it as it is not in London. I doubt that MCR trains would enter Liverpool's underground section. , Merseyrail trains would most likely terminate at Wigan using the Wapping tunnel to Central. Mcr trains as specials could run to James St and serve the cruise liner terminal. Trains right to the ships, all easily done by using one of the oldest rail tunnels in the world. Ideally a new large lift could be built at the river end of the platforms which will emerge at the river bank. All makes sense.94.194.19.241 (talk) 16:08, 27 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
... and how anal is this? I was curious as to how much further it is from Lime Street via Warrington as opposed to Runcorn. Track mileage is exactly 8 miles further. Accounting for this and for speed restrictions through Earlestown etc would probably add around 6 to 8 minutes to the London service. JohnB57 (talk) 12:08, 1 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I suppose it's a fair proposal then, with the Birmingham services still going via Runcorn, and possible future services to Liverpool from Chester and North Wales via the Halton Curve also going that way. The only issues that I can see, are the platform lengths at St Helens Junction or Lea Green with only space for 4/5 cars where as London services currently have 9 cars, and there are proposals to add an extra 2 cars to each unit within the next 3 years also, bringing the total up to 11 cars. Even Earlestown only has the capacity for 6 cars, and it would be extremely difficult to lengthen the platforms here due to the triangular layout of the station. Also to note, is that the London trains currently only depart from Platform 7 at the southern end of Liverpool Lime Street because this is the one of the few platforms that is long enough and the Runcorn line also branches off to the south. Trains taking the Newton-le-Willows/Wigan line normally depart from the opposite end of the station as this line branches off to the north. If the London trains were to use this route, then they would either have to cross right across the mouth of the station where there are trains coming in and out, or there would need to be major investment needed in re-modelling the station. It's all a matter of whether the benefit is greater than the cost. As I see it, it would probably be better to run a shuttle service between Warrington Bank Quay and Earlestown, to connect with hopefully a very frequent service along the line between Liverpool and Manchester. The only problem with this is if you have luggage with you. In the interim for travelling to Glasgow, and with an hour long walk in Warrington, you might find it easier to get a direct service from Manchester, or one to Preston where you would change without a walk. See this timetable.
Raywil (talk) 16:42, 1 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Northern route?[edit]

Does the northern route really count as a Liverpool to Manchester line, since it has no direct services? Would anyone actually use this route to get between Liverpool and Manchester? The only reason they might is if they lived near one of the intermediate stations en-route. You could also get from Manchester to Liverpool by getting a train to Crewe and changing trains, but no-one calls that a Manchester to Liverpool line! G-13114 (talk) 21:55, 29 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

For several decades, the route between Manchester Victoria and Liverpool Exchange (via Atherton and Kirkby) had a frequent fast service. The best of these ran non-stop, using the cutoff from Hindley to Pemberton, which although only 40 chains shorter than the route through Wigan Wallgate, was a much straighter line. When introduced in 1889, these took 45 minutes for the 36.5 miles. --Redrose64 (talk) 22:32, 29 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Doesn't that qualify it as a historical route then rather than a current one? G-13114 (talk) 23:07, 29 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Just to revive this. I think the Wigan route should be removed from the listing, and listed under the other routes header. The original L&MR line and the line through Warrington are the only two which have direct through trains and advertised services between the two cities. Although you can travel between Manchester and Liverpool via Wigan, there is no through service. It is also possible to travel between Liverpool and Manchester via Crewe, so logically if this is included then so should that! G-13114 (talk) 10:12, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The routes mentioned are all west to east route. Crewe is not, it is west to south east, then south east to north east. You can get from Liverpool to Manchester via London as well if you want.
The physical alignment from Liverpool via Wigan is still there with train on it. The change is at Kirkby. You get off the Merseyrail train and walk down the same platform and onto the waiting train to Manchester. You can actually buy a ticket from Liverpool Central to Manchester via Wigan. 2.221.199.177 (talk) 14:16, 28 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Parkside Liverpool Junction[edit]

On the evidence of both Network Rail NW route specs http://www.networkrail.co.uk/Network_specification_London_North_Western.aspx#map-3 (see page 49 - SRS H.33 Edge Hill - Manchester Victoria (via Earlestown)/Wigan)

"Parkside Junction – provides access between the main route of H.33 and a short branch to/from the West Coast Main Line and Wigan North Western (SRS N.04). The junction permits movement between the Manchester area and the Wigan area (and beyond)"

and of a former Rail S & T Employee responsible for that area indicate that the Junction is purely known as 'Parkside Junction' and not as 'Parkside Liverpool Junction' Paul Gaskell (talk) 22:05, 25 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Move discussion in progress[edit]

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