Talk:Les biches

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UTTER NONSENSE[edit]

This article states that this ballet has something to do with "paintings of Watteau that depict Louis XV and various women at the Parc aux Biches". Antoine Watteau died in 1721, when Louis XV was 11 !

As far as I am concerned, the Parc aux Biches is a skying resort near the Massif Central. Nothing to do. There was something called the Parc aux Cerfs ['Stag Park'], a kind of bawdy house kept for the adult Louis XV's benefit, long after Watteau's death.

In fact this ballet makes no historical references.

208.87.248.162 (talk) 12:14, 19 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I notice that when this article was first written it referred to "Louis XIV". Presumably this was correct? The article is badly in need of citations to sources. --Deskford (talk) 13:25, 3 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Del Mar and other additions and amendments[edit]

I was looking through to see what I might add to an already very nice article, but spotted that although Del Mar is referenced, it is not actually clear which book it might be. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 20:23, 21 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Whoops! I'll add the details when back at Riley Towers and my bookshelves tomorrow. Thank you for spotting that omission. Looking forward to any additions you may make. Tim riley talk 20:56, 21 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Del Mar details now added. Tim riley talk 06:46, 22 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your swift response, as you will see I have attempted to make some additions but have not finished the references as you may not accept them - that can follow. Here are some more comments:

1. According to Larousse Lexis p187 there are three definitions of 'biche' = 1. Femelle du cerf.... 2. Femelle de divers mammifères sauvages... 3. Terme de cajolerie qu'on adresse a une petite fille, a une jeune femme. Personally I would like to see all three mentioned after the French title in the first sentence (I realize there is something lower down). Let's be honest 'female deer' have absolutely nothing to do with this ballet (the Sound of Music sadly comes to mind) and – to me – excluding the third definition from the top makes it sound a bit prudish, if not confusing.
2. I also wonder whether, since there is no evidence Cocteau played any part in the ballet, he should be mentioned, except to underline, his greatest talent: self-publicity?
3. I thought that de Valois ceased to be the Royal Ballet director in 1963. Kavanagh (p106) states that it was Ashton who invited Nijinska to mount Biches and Noces; on p484 she suggests that Valois had blocked the move up to then. She also mentions Tragedy of Fashion and Varii Capricii as ballets by Ashton influenced by Biches. Possibility to add?
4. Acording to Beaumont the girls kiss at the end of the Chanson dansée (in fact there are lots of details where he, who presumably saw both the 1925 and 1937 produtions, disagress.)
5. there are also piano versions by Poulenc which have been recorded
6. The Poulenc article has this which is nice and could be incorportated (Poulenc first big success) - This work, Les biches, was an immediate success, first in Monte Carlo in January 1924 and then in Paris in May, under the direction of André Messager; it has remained one of Poulenc's best-known scores.[52] Poulenc's new celebrity after the success of the ballet was the unexpected cause of his estrangement from Satie: among the new friends Poulenc made was Louis Laloy, a writer whom Satie regarded with implacable enmity.[53] Auric, who had just enjoyed a similar triumph with a Diaghilev ballet, Les Fâcheux, was also repudiated by Satie for becoming a friend of Laloy.[53] Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 20:15, 22 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I think all your additions are excellent. As to the above points, they too seem to me top-notch, and I hope you will act on all of them. Four comments in particular:

My efforts to explain the meaning of the word "biches" are an Anglo-Saxon's unsubtle attempts to penetrate the nuances of French usage, and I should be delighted to have them replaced or improved by a francophone contributor such as you.

I'm afraid I am more an enthusiastic amateur francophile... I have added in a little more, but probably not the final word.

Good point about de Valois's dates: I ought to have noticed that.

corrected this and expanded with bits about Ashton's style being influenced by Nijinska - please tweak here (and anywhere)

I've only seen the ballet once and I'm certain the grey girls did not kiss in that production, but if a reliable ballet authority says they did in the original version I cannot argue.

have not touched the synopsis at this stage

- Later: there is one staging of the ballet available online, here. I've seen more precise dancing, and heard music played and sung better, but it's plainly a production of the Nikinska ballet, and for present purposes I see that the grey girls don't kiss in this staging. I imagine the point at which they might do would be at 14m 35s into the video, where here they embrace and then look at each other, nonplussed, before dancing off in opposite directions. Tim riley talk 07:53, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not going to take issue with the text you quote from the Poulenc article, as, ahem, I wrote it.

What with my additions and now yours, this bids fair to be a rather good article. How pleasing! Tim riley talk 07:10, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yes - it is good, thanks mostly to your effort. A couple of quick things - could the first column in the ballet table be made wider so that the dance titles are on one line? Also, I checked the date of the Désormière recording in Philips Stuarts's Decca discography, and it is also given on the TEstament CD booklet.Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 22:21, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I think also a few more photos will be good - I will have a look.Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 22:23, 25 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Another afterthought (brain catching up with eyes): the translations of the three songs are mine, and if you care to polish them it will be esteemed a favour. Tim riley talk 18:54, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for all the comments, I will reply fully and make the edits later in the week. Regards, Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 22:22, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

During my recent edits I found in a book some information on where the various musical quotes come from... but now cannot find the book where I saw this! Hopefully I will be able to do this sometime. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 21:10, 25 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]