Talk:Kwetiau goreng

Indonesia vs Singapore (vs Malaysia, too)

Since it looks like we have an edit war brewing between Lee788 and Gunkarta, let's calm down and examine the facts:

• To put content in an article, we need reliable sources. This article has one unreliable source, which is a recipe from a cooking blog.
• The etymology is inconclusive:
  • The word kwetiau is a transliteration of Chinese 粿條
  • The word goreng means 'fried' in several Malayic languages, including both Indonesian and Malay.
• Chinese populations and cultural influences exist in multiple places in the Malay Archipelago, including both Indonesia and Singapore, among others. While an item may have originated in one place, it can be very easy for it to spread via ethnic and linguistic communities in different countries. When that happens, it is better thought of as belonging to a transnational culture, not one country in particular.
• The presence of a dish in a country or region does not make that dish inherent to the country's cuisine. You can probably find kwetiau goreng in Amsterdam, New York and Dubai, but that doesn't mean that the dish is Dutch, American or Arab.
• Search data favors Indonesia:
  • Google reports no statistically significant interest in the term kwetiau goreng in Singapore. Regional interest is concentrated exclusively in Indonesia, while city interest is in Indonesian and Malaysian cities.
  • In contrast, char kway teow scores very highly in Singapore, with secondary prominence in Malaysia and Australia, and no interest in Indonesia.

When two similar items exist in two places, we must determine whether they are regional variations of the same thing, distinct things with common roots, or distinct things that are similar only by coincidence.

Open questions:

1. Is the name kwetiau goreng used in Singapore? If so, from a Singaporean perspective:
   1. With what cuisine is it associated?
   2. Is kwetiau goreng considered local or foreign?
   3. Is kwetiau goreng considered a different name for char kway teow, a version of char kway teow, or a completely different dish?
2. Is the name char kway teow used in Indonesia? If so, from an Indonesian perspective:
   1. With what cuisine is it associated?
   2. Is char kway teow considered a local or foreign dish?
   3. Is char kway teow considered a different name for char kway teow, a version of char kway teow, or a completely different dish?

Individual Wikipedians can answer these questions as a preliminary step to determine how we organize these articles, but in the end we need to have citations that prove the answers. Ibadibam (talk) 22:37, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

Thank you to open the discussion and address this matter. You have point it out correctly that indeed Kwetiau goreng is more associated with Indonesia, while Char kway teow is more associated with Singapore and Malaysia as proven with internet search. While no one can deny their Chinese Cantonese origin, each of these kwetiau/kway teow/shahe fen/hor fun dishes has undergone a certain degree of localization. Having visited Singapore and Malaysia (and residing in Indonesia), I'll tried to answer the question. Open questions:

1. Is the name char kway teow used in Indonesia? Almost never
   1. With what cuisine is it associated? Char kway teow can only be found in Malaysian and Singaporean restaurants/foodcourts in Jakarta and mostly associated with Malaysian and Singaporean cuisine. For example it is served in Malaysian Penang bistro/restaurant.
   2. Is char kway teow considered a local or foreign dish? Foreign, more precisely Chinese Malaysian and Singapore.
   3. Is char kway teow considered a different name for kwetiau goreng, a version of kwetiau goreng, or a completely different dish? Somewhere between a version of similar dish to a completely different dish, in menu usually Char Kway Teow is described in Indonesian language as kwetiau goreng ala Penang/Singapura (depends on the restaurants) or "Penang Malaysian/Singaporean style kwetiau goreng".

Here some references from The Jakarta Post "The pempek can be cooked into another dish, kwetiau goreng lenjer, which is made by slicing the pempek and mixing it with chicken, prawns, eggs, bean sprouts and soy sauce."

"New menu items such as pecel ayam, soto ayam, kwetiau goreng, nasi goreng ikan asin and nasi goreng sambal terasi were now available, Antonius said."

I've been to Singapore and Malaysia several times, the term kwetiau goreng is rarely (almost never) used there. If yes, usually refer to Malay halal version of char kway teow (using beef or seafood), usually served in Malay/Indonesian restaurant/foodcourt there run by Indonesian immigrants. For example kwetiau goreng is served in Indonesian origin franchise Es Teler 77 restaurant in Singapore. The authentic Penang Char kway teow is rich in lard and pork slices, thus not halal. Indonesian kwetiau goreng variants are almost always halal (no pork, only uses beef, chicken and seafood) with rare instances of pork version usually only available in Chinatowns in Indonesia. Kwetiau goreng uses Indonesian style kecap manis (sweet soy sauce), bawang goreng (fried shallots) and krupuk crackers, while Char kway teow is not using them, and more closer to their Chinese origin beef chow fun (but using pork and lard instead). Similar but different. Hope that help. Gunkarta  talk  11:38, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

Arrgghh!..What,Gunkarta! You have been to Singapore and not tell me.Next time,when you come to Singapore,please let me know. Let me treat you to the best foods in Singapore. Next,when i come to Indonesia,your turn,ok? Deal?.he2. Ok,refer to kwetiau goreng,i mean it for Singaporean Malay. In here they don't eat char kway teow because of halal matter. But,Malay in singapore they created their own kwetiau goreng to replace Chinese version. They not just modified from pork to chicken or beef,but also sauce. That's why,for me kwetiau goreng is Indonesia,Singapore and Malaysia origin,but under Malay version. Next if you come to Singapore again,let me know. Just leave message on my talk page. Lee788 (talk) 21:11, 5 February 2016 (UTC).

References