Talk:Kosher locust

Source in the Bible is translated incorrectly

The translation of Lev. 11:20-23 is inaccurate. Check Wikisource or Biblerulez.com for a list of correct translations. 71.174.111.205 (talk) 13:15, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Imprecision

four varieties of locust are nonetheless considered by some to be permissible.

Four varieties are considered by all to be permissible. It is not the permissibility of four varieties but the identity of these four varieties that is in question. As it stands, it suggests that some deny that the Torah permits any locusts at all. DRosenbach ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 19:10, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Food and drink Tagging

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Tradition (Mesora)

The article says currently: "The Halachah regarding locusts, and all kosher animals for that matter,[citation needed] is that one is allowed to eat a specific type of animal only if there is a "continuous tradition", also known as a "mesora", that affirms that it is kosher." I think "all kosher animals" should be changed to "all kosher birds." Do other animals need a tradition? Isn't it sufficient to apply the rules of kashrut (e.g., fins and scales for fish)? Effy Shaf (talk) 06:25, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

As the tag already says, a citation is needed. Perhaps you are conversant enough with the issues to identify one? --BlueMoonlet (t/c) 16:14, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

The Yemenite custom and Citation

For those looking for the reference cited, it is in Hebrew: See Hebrew University Library. The Book in Hebrew is called Halichot Teiman = הליכות תימן. If you click מידע מפורט it will open a new window and give more precise details about the book, also in English. Cheers.Davidbena (talk) 15:13, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

Hi there, Davidbena. The current source seems to be a list of Hebrew books, not the book. Moreover, I cannot find the ISBN from any database. Cheers! Jayaguru-Shishya (talk) 18:52, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

Copied from User talk:Jayaguru-Shishya#Kosher Lucust

User:Jayaguru-Shishya, I have the book in my library. Would you like me to scan the Hebrew pages for you?Davidbena (talk) 19:01, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

Here, too, is a web-site that discusses the book. Halichot Teiman.Davidbena (talk) 19:03, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

Hi there, Davidbena. I took the discussion here so the other editors of the article could follow it as well. The current source mentions no publisher. Can you please provide that for us? :-P If it's a reliable one, a Hebrew quote with the translation will do (per WP:NONENG). Thanks a lot for your help in advance! Cheers! Jayaguru-Shishya (talk) 19:24, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

User:Jayaguru-Shishya, I'm sorry, but the web-site is also the publisher of the book. The publisher is the Ben Zvi Institute of Jerusalem. The author of the book is one of the most reliable scholars in our country, the late Rabbi Yosef Qafih.Davidbena (talk) 19:32, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for adding a new reference,[1] Davidbena. However, please do separate the references into their own templates in the future; I've done that for you now.[2] I also removed the first one as it was a merely list of books in Hebrew, whereas WP:SOURCE requires use to use "sources that directly support the material".

I am still concerned about the new source, though. I mean, I couldn't find the book from the ISBN Search, but neither did a name search by Google provide with any results. I searched both with the first name you provided, "Locust in the Tradition of Israel'", and the real name that I later corrected into the reference, "The Locust in Jewish Tradition". Neither one yielded with any results. Therefore, do you know who is the publisher of the book? Also, could you give me a link where this information is presented? Thanks a lot again, Davidbena! Cheers! Jayaguru-Shishya (talk) 18:50, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

@Jayaguru-Shishya: The book, Locust in the Tradition of Israel, does not have an English title, to the best of my knowledge. Its Hebrew title was translated by me into English. The Hebrew title is as stated in the parentheses of the reference cited by me, הארבה במסורת ישראל, and the book is published by Bar-Ilan University. I will purchase the book, hopefully, on Sunday, and I will provide more precise information, such as page numbers. The author, Dr. Zohar Amar, has told me in private communications that he treats on the Yemenite Jewish custom of eating these locusts. The ISBN is correct, copied from the Hebrew University library data base. Here is a link showing the book, Publisher. Once you're on the page, you can ask for the English version of the same page. Be well.Davidbena (talk) 19:35, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

As for your removal of the first reference, that was premature and uncalled for since it directly relates to our material here, in this article. In fact, I have a copy of the 3rd edition and the author, a respected Rabbi, goes into great detail about the kosher locusts eaten by Jews in Yemen. I will therefore reinsert the original reference, and add also page numbers.Davidbena (talk) 19:49, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

Davidbena, I found two books at the website that might be of interest; is this one (הארבה במסורת ישראל) the same as this one in English (The Locust in Jewish Tradition)? If so, there'd certainly be an English title. However, neither of the websites names the publishing party, so far. Also, as you are a contributor, please see WP:COI. Cheers! Jayaguru-Shishya (talk) 21:59, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

Yes, they are the same book, and the web-page does indeed mention the publisher, namely: Bar-Ilan University Press. I bought myself a copy of the book today, from the same publisher at the University Press itself.Davidbena (talk) 21:41, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

Ah, indeed! I must have got mistaken with the publisher, my apologies. It seems fine to me now, thanks Davidbena. I'll wikify the citation style still a bit, but otherwise seems really good. As it is a Hebrew source, could you please provide short quotations that verify the material both in Hebrew and (freely) translated into English? According to WP:NONENG:

Citations to non-English sources are allowed on the English Wikipedia. However, [...] editors may request that a quotation of relevant portions of the original source be provided [...] When quoting a non-English source (whether in the main text or in a footnote), a translation into English should always accompany the quote

Can you still do that? Thanks, Davidbena! Cheers! Jayaguru-Shishya (talk) 11:24, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

Yes, I will do that later this evening, as also bring down a new paragraph on its manner of preparation. Be well.Davidbena (talk) 14:58, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for adding the requested quotations, Davidbena![3][4] I've still got a couple of questions, though:

1. Regarding the reference number 10[5] ("...מסורת ברורה של..."), it is pertaining to the pages 85 and 88. However, the quotation is still missing the ellipsis to distinguish where one page actually turns into another. Could you please still check that...? :-P
2. Yavneeli (1952) doesn't provide any ISBN or publisher, neither could I find it through the search engines. I am perfectly okay with having Hebrew sources, but could you please provide those missing two pieces of information so that the source can meet Wikipedia:Verifiability?

Shemuel Yavneeli (Heb. שמואל יבנאלי) was a Zionist emissary to Yemen in 1911. His book is entitled, in Hebrew, מסע לתימן (Journey to Yemen), and is also found at the Hebrew University library; see מסע לתימן, item number 6. At the bottom of this general description, you can click on to the caption that reads: מידע מפורט, and another window will open giving you a more detailed description of the book. Davidbena (talk) 18:04, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

Thanks a lot, Davidbena! Keep up the good work! :-) Jayaguru-Shishya (talk) 17:57, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

@Jayaguru-Shishya: Shalom. I noticed what you thought to be a "contradiction" between paragraphs 1 and 2. The confusion had arisen because of the names of two edible plant-eating orthopterous insects eaten in Yemen, one a true locust, the Desert locust (Schistocerca gregaria), and the other believed in Yemen to be a grasshopper, the Egyptian locust (Anacridium aegyptium). According to Zohar Amar, both were eaten in Yemen, although in the case of the latter species, it was not eaten by all.Davidbena (talk) 15:45, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

Removing a valid source

Hi User:Jayaguru-Shishya I'm questioning your methodology. Why on earth did you remove a totally valid source that I added on this article ? The source is the following : Valensi, Lucette; Udovitch, Abraham L. (1984). Juifs en terre d'islam : les communautés de Djerba. Archives contemporaines. p. 18. ISBN 2-903928-05-3. I added it after reading the book years ago, it's an authoritative work on Djerba's Jews that I heavily used to write the French article on the fr:Histoire des Juifs à Djerba. It really saddens me to see my contribution destroyed for a reason I honestly fail to understand. Regards.--Kimdime (talk) 10:44, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

Hi there, Kimdime! I saw your edit, and was just about to write to your Talk Page. Anyway, the reason why I removed the source, is that the source has been tagged ever since September 2018, something which I also presented in my Edit Summary. There's also another source, Zohar (2002), that is backing up the material pretty well as well.

The source isn't really accessible for the majority of the readers, so could you please provide a quotation for the source? It seems to be in French, so one would be needed anyway. Cheers! Jayaguru-Shishya (talk) 10:52, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

Thankfully I'll be able to quote the book on Monday. Now, I must say that your interpretation of WP:NONENG is very personal. Quotation of a foreign language source, according to this policy, only becomes mandatory "if a dispute arises involving a citation". Hence demanding a quotation for a non-English source (and removing the citation f it's not provided) shouldn't be a routine procedure but an exceptional one arising from a reasonable doubt about the source and its use. Regards.--Kimdime (talk) 11:14, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

Hmm... Should one not have access to the source, or not understand the language it is written in, the dispute hardly can be about the source contents. Therefore, "editors may request that a quotation of relevant portions of the original source be provided." Should the quotation be in any other language than English, "a translation into English should always accompany the quote."

Part of my wikignoming, I've always made casual fact checking. Sometimes, the material in the article is not supported by the source given. Hope this clarifies my edits a bit! :-) Cheers! Jayaguru-Shishya (talk) 12:22, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

I added the quotation. You must understand that it is extremely disheartening for someone like me who is, or at list believes to be, a "Wikipedia rules abiding user", who not only tries to add content, but also tries to bring sources, specially sources that are not easily available online, to have my work undone because of an extremely pernickety interpretation of rules. It took me some time to add that source, a prime anthropological work on Djerba's Jews, to this article. Best regards.--Kimdime (talk) 08:09, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, Kimdime! I appreciate your effort. I'm sorry if I made you feel that your work isn't appreciated. On the contrary, it is appreciated a lot!

There were no bad intentions on the removal of the material; just that it was in a foreign language and not accessible (if it was hard for you to find access to the source, just imagine for someone who is not French-speaking). I have had to find sources from the local library sometimes when there there is no source available online, so I know how hard it can be. Still, thanks for your effort, you really have helped to improve the encyclopedia! :-) Cheers! Jayaguru-Shishya (talk) 20:06, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

How and by whom Kosher locusts were eaten: Aruch HaShulchan, and Shemot Rabba

Greetings!

I was recently glancing through the article when I noticed that the section How and by whom Kosher locusts were eaten completely resorts to two sources, Aruch HaShulchan, and Shemot Rabba. First of all, there are no full citation provided for either one of them; just a vague reference to a primary source. Second, indeed, both are primary sources (WP:PRIMARY). I've already asked Yesman — the user who added the content — to help to provide full citations for the primary sources added (this would be a good first step).[6] Furthermore, I have asked for his help in order to find reliable WP:SECONDARY sources to back-up the information.

Searching information around Jewish primary sources isn't really one of my strenghts, so I'd greatly appreciate the help of any user more capable! :-)

Cheers! Jayaguru-Shishya (talk) 14:50, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

Requested move 2 March 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Silikonz💬 02:33, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

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Kosher locust → Kosher locusts – More grammatical. Not only are multiple locusts, but multiple types of locusts, kosher. Ar2332 (talk) 20:01, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

• Support Rreagan007 (talk) 04:03, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose per the first sentence of WP:PLURAL. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 13:07, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:PLURAL, and since nothing would be lost in the article if the lead was replaced with "A kosher locust is a variety..." This is an umbrella term for subjects with separate articles; this is not like Web colors which contains various topics with no separate articles. Steel1943 (talk) 06:58, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.