Talk:Kingdom of the Planet of the Apes

"Draft:Ziggy (film)" listed at Redirects for discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Draft:Ziggy (film). The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 September 9#Draft:Ziggy (film) until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 21:14, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

Revert article title

Due to the film not having a title yet, I suggest switching the article's title back to Untitled Planet of the Apes film or Untitled War for the Planet of the Apes sequel (the latter is a bit long, so I reccomend the former). Having our current title suggests this is another remake or a new reboot, neither of which are true. Iamnoahflores (talk) 22:22, 24 April 2021 (UTC)

UPDATE: Already did it myself. Iamnoahflores (talk) 01:30, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

Can't I put this for the premise?

So I had an edit for a premise that includes this with these 4 sources provided:

Set many years following the death of Caesar, an ape named Noa goes on a quest to free his peaceful clan, after they were attacked and enslaved by a group led by a powerful warlord called Proximus Caesar, while teaming up with an orangutan and a human, the latter of whom seeks to restore humanity's place as the dominant species.

Even with these 4 sources this edit was rejected because they weren't "reliable" enough? I just find it weird that if 4 lower sources say the same thing, wouldn't that just increase the truthfulness of the content? Iamnoahflores (talk) 16:55, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

References

They are not considered reliable sources because they are not widely cited by reputable sources, and those kinds of sites mainly report rumors and speculation. Daniel RPK is a scooper, so he is not reliable either. InfiniteNexus (talk) 17:05, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

How are scoopers not reliable? Iamnoahflores (talk) 19:36, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

WP:SPS. And again, they're not widely cited by reliable sources. InfiniteNexus (talk) 21:11, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established subject-matter expert, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications.

Has he not been mentioned before in more reliable sources? Iamnoahflores (talk) 00:38, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

No. Can you prove that he has? ( InfiniteNexus (talk) 00:39, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

Oh no, that actually was a genuine question. Guess he's not as "popular" as I thought. Iamnoahflores (talk) 00:49, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

Production List isn't good enough either, even alongside other sources that say the same thing? Fine Disinsider and Full Circle Cinema I get, but RPK is very popular and is certified on Twitter, and GFR notes when their source has been proven to be reliable (which was the case for this one). Seriously, nothing? Iamnoahflores (talk) 21:06, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

We also know The Disinsider to be an unreliable source. Information like this would appear in every reliable source about film, from Variety and THR to Screen Rant and Comicbook.com. If none of those published this premise, then it surely isn't reliable. —El Millo (talk) 22:52, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

El Millo is right, those aren't reliable either. It seems you're having a hard time determining what kind of sources are reliable for film articles, may I suggest you take a look at WP:FILMRS? That page has a non-exhaustive list of good sources, so you might find it helpful. InfiniteNexus (talk) 20:35, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

Recent revert

Hello @ZX2006XZ. Apparently, I wasn't clear enough in my edit summary, so I'll try to explain further:

• Someone added Wes Ball as a producer a few days ago, but there's nothing in the article to support that. Gyula Pados is listed as cinematographer, but I could find no sources for that either. Same with Oddball Entertainment.
• There is a Production Weekly source listed for Shinbone Productions, but it doesn't actually say anything other than the film's title. I realize now that you apparently have to pay for a subscription to access the specific details. I have not found any other sources that support Shinbone's involvement, so I wonder how accurate that is.
• The "Filming" section that you restored rambles on with unnecessary details when it should just get to the point. Obviously, it didn't start filming in August, and I'm not sure that any publications were even reporting that date other than Production Weekly. There's also this: "With the announcement of Allan and Macon, it was announced that production would commence in October. Why not just skip straight ahead to the actual start of filming? Why do readers need to know when the start date for filming was announced?
• The "Release" section currently has three sources, but only the last one actually supports the full release date. The other two just say "2024", so there's no need for those.
• The category "Films set in San Francisco" is also unsourced.

 AJFU  (talk) 20:23, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

It makes no sense to just "skip" all the way to October. The production was expected to begin in August, but was later expected to begin in October. ZX2006XZ (talk) 20:34, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

Production Weekly was proven wrong on the filming start date, which is why it was removed in the first place. No source has indicated that it is wrong on Oddball and Shinbone's involvement, though, so I'm leaning toward keeping them until we get the official credits. InfiniteNexus (talk) 21:01, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

Oddball was listed in Production Weekly, so I've added it back in. The rest are all unsourced, so I've removed them. InfiniteNexus (talk) 20:59, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

Change to Freya Allen's character name

Hello. Please change the name of Freya Allen's character from Nova to Mae. The name Mae is confirmed to be the name of the character by the actress herself in an interview. Thank you.

2607:FEA8:7221:F600:A53B:1AAC:F9BE:52FD (talk) 02:52, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

 Done —El Millo (talk) 03:50, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

 Reverted As I explained in an earlier edit summary, it appears the character's name has since been quietly changed to "Nova". Every image, including the newly released character poster, at Disney's media kit labels Allen's character as "Nova" (it used to say "Mae"). In the interview you reference above, the name "Mae" is never once uttered by the actress herself, and the source is from a month ago. InfiniteNexus (talk) 06:18, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Inaccurate once again. All the sources I found explicitly refer to the character as Mae, and not Nova. https://www.slashfilm.com/1437095/kingdom-of-the-planet-of-the-apes-first-trailer-breakdown/ In addition, when Wikia uses a name for a character, generally that indicates its reliable. https://planetoftheapes.fandom.com/wiki/Kingdom_of_the_Planet_of_the_Apes#Humans And everyone seems to treat the character as Mae, while no one has refereed to her as Nova in months. It appears Mae is the official name. (2607:FEA8:7221:F600:4079:AF0E:9DAE:E49F (talk) 14:59, 14 February 2024 (UTC))

In addition, IMDB refers to Allen's character as Mae, and IMDB is rarely wrong, almost all of the times they name a role, they are right on the money. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt11389872/ Thus, I ask that the character be given the correct name of Mae. (2607:FEA8:7221:F600:ACFC:3BD3:587:9F4E (talk) 20:20, 14 February 2024 (UTC))

WP:IMDB is not a reliable source, as it is edited by anonymous people (like Wikipedia). IMDb is quite frequently wrong until a film is released. Fandom is also just like Wikipedia thus is not a reliable source, per WP:FANDOM/WP:SPS. The Slash Film article is from November 2023 and the character images that was released by Disney, was from February 11, 2024. I think it's evident that we would use current information. If something changes when the film is released per the end credits, the page can be updated to reflect that. Mike Allen 21:21, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Every single thing talking about the film online explicitly refers to her as Mae, your little Disney thing is the one time someone has referred to her as Nova, and given it is the only one, you cannot say her name is Nova based on just one thing. With everyone else saying Mae, and you just using one photo with no proof, while I provided proof her name is Mae, it should still be changed to Mae. (2607:FEA8:7221:F600:ACFC:3BD3:587:9F4E (talk) 21:49, 14 February 2024 (UTC))

It won't be per the reasons above. Mike Allen 22:14, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

These images are provided by Disney directly to sources. Any source that resuses those images will be using those same captions if they choose to display one. 20th Century Studios has the same captions on their website. Pointing to outdated sources that are several months old is irrelevant — for months, Teague's character was widely identified by multiple reliable sources as Cornelius, until official press materials identified him as Noa. It took a while before most sources picked up on this, but that didn't stop us from using the most accurate and up-to-date information. InfiniteNexus (talk) 01:38, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

References

Confirming Mae's name.

A new clip has explicitly confirmed that Freya Allen's character is named Mae. At the 50 second mark, Mae explicitly tells Noa and Raka that her name is Mae. I have cited this video, but there still remains people who argue that even it is directly stated, that it cannot count, despite the video being uploaded by the film's creator. There has been a long running dispute as to what the character's name would be, but with a clip confirming what her name directly is, I ask that the other editors vote to state by consensus that Mae is her official name. Thank you. ```` 2607:FEA8:7221:F600:A4BE:B154:27E9:39FD (talk) 17:43, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

 Note: Please see the discussion on my talk page (as well as the previous discussion directly above). Based on the various pieces of evidence we have, it appears Allen's character is given the name "Nova" until her real name, "Mae", is revealed. As such, we should include both. I strongly urge the IP editor to stop edit-warring, as they have been reverted by multiple editors over the past several months and is acting against consensus; if you revert again, you will be blocked for edit-warring. Please discuss here, in accordance with the recommendations listed at WP:BRD. InfiniteNexus (talk) 18:16, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

I really do not understand why you are clinging to false and outdated information. Originally, I was willing to give the Nova idea the benefit of the doubt, but she clearly states at the 50 second mark of this clip that her name is Mae. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBlTMBY19-0 That is the most accurate and up to date information. Since she clearly states her name is Mae, I do not understand why you insist on calling her Nova when a new clip gives irrefutable proof. And furthermore, you are awfully quick to throw the edit warring allegation, when you are in no such position, as you were the one to start it and disregarded the sources that gave clear proof. 2607:FEA8:7221:F600:A4BE:B154:27E9:39FD (talk) 18:24, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

We know her character's real name is Mae. We also know that she is given the name "Nova" early on in the film, and that is also the name used more prominently in the film's marketing. This isn't "false and outdated information", and it's not clear why you think so. As you have been reverted by multiple editors, not just me, you are operating against consensus and refusing to get the point. InfiniteNexus (talk) 18:37, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't see a problem with listing both names until we see the end credits. Mike Allen 21:20, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

I think regardless of what the end credits say, we should still list both names if they are both used multiple times throughout the film. I see @Neocorelight has changed the ref and removed "Nova"; please see this discussion. If both names are used to refer to the character (with one being the real name and the other a nickname until her real name is "revealed"), this should be indicated here. I included a {{third-party inline}} tag because there should preferably be a third-party source that uses both names (which shouldn't be difficult to find as we get closer to release), not a source that only uses "Mae" or "Nova". I've run out of reverts, so perhaps you or another editor can revert the edit. InfiniteNexus (talk) 02:44, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Well, her real name is now "revealed" in a marketing before the film is released. I am now convinced that we should just use her definitive name Mae. It's not like her name is kept secret until the film's release. Nova being her temporary name is your speculation, right, @InfiniteNexus? I am also not aware of the name Nova being more prominent in marketing. Based on the newest piece of marketing, I am in support of keeping the name Mae only, but states that the apes called her Nova. Neocorelight (Talk) 03:27, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

It would be easier for us if there's a source that discuss what's the deal with this Nova–Mae names. I'm looking for it now. Neocorelight (Talk) 03:35, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

It isn't my speculation. [1] [2] The links are in the discussion I linked above. InfiniteNexus (talk) 03:39, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Alright, I found a third-party source (that wasn't available this morning): [3]. For the record, the official website (see image captions) continues to call her Nova. InfiniteNexus (talk) 03:43, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

So that article states her name is Mae, with Nova a nickname that serves just as a reference / easter egg. I support a wording like this:

• Freyan Allan as Mae, a human girl [...], Raka nicknamed her Nova [...].

I oppose placing Nova side-by-side with Mae like "Mae / Nova". I disregard the caption in the website because secondary sources explained it better. Neocorelight (Talk) 04:28, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

I also think we should go with just Mae for now. It has both primary and secondary sources nad it's directly stated in the trailer. Nova could have been a placeholder name that hasn't been updated yet. —El Millo (talk) 04:33, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Do you agree with this, @InfiniteNexus, @MikeAllen? Neocorelight (Talk) 04:37, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

I would still prefer "Nova / Mae" per the studio's own styling and how we normally denote alternate names (check practically any superhero film), but I think mentioning "Nova" somewhere would be better than not mentioning the name at all. By the way, Nova is not a placeholder name; we have the actual scene from the film in which the characters name her "Nova", along with the other clip of her revealing her true name. InfiniteNexus (talk) 05:16, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

But this... can't be compared with superhero stuff. I am aware of those two clips already. Neocorelight (Talk) 06:04, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't see how they are different. "Nova" is Mae's pseudonym/nickname/codename/alter ego/sobriquet, just like "Batman" or "Spider-Man". And it's not just superheroes, it's also films like RoboCop, Ready Player One (film), No Time to Die, The Prestige (film), 12 Years a Slave (film), Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire (film), Jungle Cruise (film), etc. Basically, any film with a character who has an alternate or secret name. With all that being said, iff the consensus is in favor of noting "Nova" on a separate line, I would suggest something like Freya Allan as Mae, [...] She is given the name "Nova" by the apes, a reference to the character of the same name from War for the Planet of the Apes. InfiniteNexus (talk) 00:11, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

I think we should use Mae/Nova. We know both names are used to refer to her. And we don't need an apologetic explanation of "Nova" for a movie that hasn't been released yet, and so we can't know the full and exact context for the usage of each name. Rlendog (talk) 19:22, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

I would still argue for just Mae as her name. It has been confirmed that the apes call all captured humans "Nova", so there is a very real possibility the other human characters will get called Nova, and unlike it being treated as a name, it will likely be used as a term of command or insult, so it would be utterly impractical to address every human in the credits as "/Nova". Therefore, we should treat her as just "Mae", because there is a very good chance the name Nova gets used as a command, so context is very important here. 2607:FEA8:7221:F600:39B9:5EC7:3AF4:9F89 (talk) 19:04, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

That's your WP:OR speculation. @Neocorelight and MikeAllen: Do you have any final thoughts? InfiniteNexus (talk) 19:40, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm in favor of "Nova / Mae" for now. Mike Allen 22:18, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

As to your arguement that is original research, the campfire featurette and several of the cast interviews confirmed all captured humans are called Nova. Heck it is brought up in the same featurette you mentioned, so it is not original research. 2607:FEA8:7221:F600:6CEE:97F0:150A:D539 (talk) 23:04, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

"it will likely be used as a term of command or insult", "there is a very good chance the name Nova gets used as a command."

These are your speculations. These are beyond what is confirmed in the clip.

The name Nova is given by the ape protagonists, Noa and Raka. They seem to tolerate humans. Why would they insult and command them using that name? Neocorelight (Talk) 01:32, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Ok the protagonists use it as a nae, but there is a good chance that in the movie, more villainous apes will use the term, and they will use it as a command or insult. 2607:FEA8:7221:F600:4DB2:EFBF:41D7:A77B (talk) 12:54, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Still speculating I see. Neocorelight (Talk) 23:33, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

This speculation by the IP editor is going way far. What if the Nova name is just a passing reference that is barely used again?

I'm okay with including both names based on that featurette, though I prefer just Mae. Neocorelight (Talk) 22:49, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Per the rough consensus above, I've restored "Nova" as an alternative name. InfiniteNexus (talk) 23:52, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

References