Talk:Juliette Benzoni

Wrong opion.

Moved from my talk.

 – Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 16:44, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

Hello, I mean that you find my English poorly and underdeveloped I have to accept,even though no one has ever told me that, and I am in contact with English writers. I am not English, but that you dare to say that the text is copied from the French Wikipedia page is a huge impertinence by you. Never in my life have I copied anything when since years I get so upset that material is stolen from that website. I was a personal friend of Juliette Benzoni and she even dedicated a book to me. All you find on that website, not a fansite, official website, was approved by the author in 2009. https://www.catherinedemontsalvy.ch/English/Frontpage.htm maybe you need an extra link to believe it? https://www.catherinedemontsalvy.ch/English/Books/Juliette_Benzoni/Juliette_Benzoni.htm She died two years ago and that is when I decided to write finally that article!

I ask you to take away your entry, because it is a false accusation.

This article is a rough translation from French. It may have been generated by a computer or by a translator without dual proficiency. Please help to enhance the translation. The original article is under "français" in the "languages" sidebar. If you have just labeled this article as needing attention, please add

Juliette Benzoni

The initial language of this article was French. Laramie1960 (talk) 16:35, 22 February 2018 (UTC) to the bottom of the WP:PNTCU section on Wikipedia:Pages needing translation into English.

Laramie1960 (talk) 16:35, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

Laramie, I'm sorry if I guessed the wrong language there; I'll remove that template. The English is poor and needs to be fixed, and the tone is not that of an encyclopaedia. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 16:44, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

So you cannot stop with insulting me caro Justlettersandnumbers. After you have wrongly accused me of stealing from the French Wikipedia - using the Google translator, (which by the way I would not have used, my understanding of French is perfect), I speak German, French, English and yes also Italian - you come now and add on the template that A major contributor to this article appears to have a close connection with its subject. (February 2018)

I suppose you want to tell with this I am paid or was paid by the late author (she died in 2016) to write that article on Wikipedia about her. I never wrote that article as a fan, it would have sounded very much different - I know how to stay neutral, am I not a native Swiss? I do not understand your attitude towards me. All this mobbing now, because I had the courage to write in the Teahouse about some Italian Users, who created an article and I had thought I deserved some contribution? As for your information, the creator of that Italian article and me, have no problems now. He/she has confirmed to translate for me.

Also you have deleted all links to https://www.catherinedemontsalvy.ch/ now if someone takes a closer look at this article, they will see that all sources and references are missing. All material clean and authentic, but which can only be found on that website or the other website, where you left the links. I would understand it if that article had been only yesterday uploaded and not been on Wikipedia since July 2017. A few Users have come since then and contributed, correcting not so much spelling mistakes but technical issues. No one had ever written it was poor English. I am very happy for you that you are without fault. I am in contact with two English writers, yes they have published a few books - and they told me my English was fine, maybe we realize it was not written by an English person, but that it was very understandable and not as you say "poor English".

Please be so kind to remove the message that the initial language of the article was French. Is is untrue and I do not want to be insulted by you. For your information, the German Wikipedia is very strict as all Germans are, and they had accepted the article translated by me and uploaded it right away when it was done. You definitely have ruined at the moment my pleasure to contribute on Wikipedia. Please choose next time someone else for a scapegoat. Laramie1960 (talk) 19:05, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

Laramie1960, if you look at the words "close connection" in the template above the article text, you will see that they are blue. That is an internal link to our Conflict of interest guideline. The first sentence of that starts "Conflict of interest (COI) editing involves contributing to Wikipedia about yourself, family, friends, clients, employers ...". You wrote at the Teahouse "I knew that author Juliette Benzoni for many years personally and travelled always to Paris to talk with her". Sorry, but you have a clear conflict of interest, by your own admission. The tone of the article is inappropriate to an encyclopaedia, and the English is poor. As an example of both defects: "After the fulminant start of ‘Catherine’ before even the book was available in the bookstores, it continued its brilliant sales success all over the World." "Fulminant"? "Brilliant sales success"? Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 19:40, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

Justlettersandnumbers I had no idea knowing the author a couple of years before she passed away - I would not be aloud to write on the already existing Juliette Benzoni article on Wikipedia. I was a beginner and I missed that rule otherwise, I would have gone to the Teahouse and asked if I could still contribute to the already existing article. Why else would I have openly written two days ago I knew the author? I do reproach myself for not having informed myself better before I started. I copy the entry from 23 May 2010

16:21, 23 May 2010‎ Starzynka (talk | contribs)‎ . . (1,772 bytes) (+1,772)‎ . . (←Created page with '

Juliette Benzoni (born October 30, 1920) is a French novelist. She is best known for her novels with historic...')

If you go back to July 2017 you will see that the article, before I took over - had only a few entries and the order of the books was in chaos and not complete. There existed definitely no references and no extern links. You have deleted all the links to the official www.catherinedemontsalvy.ch website.

I have seen that you also deleted all references on the other article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catherine_(1986_TV_series) 14:45, 23 February 2018‎ Justlettersandnumbers (talk | contribs)‎ . . (24,043 bytes) (-1,116)‎ . . (rm links to www.catherinedemontsalvy.ch per WP:LINKVIO (it is anyway just somebody's website, not a reliable source))

Your remark It is just anyway just somebody's website, not a reliable source, is hard to accept! A site which was approved by the late author and who shared many of her old souvenirs with that said website. Juliette Benzoni can even be heard with a welcome speech to the visitors of that website. The newspaper articles, photos and other rare material was given to share on that website. But if you zapp around on that site, you will see that what I say is correct. I repeat once more, the first Bestseller of Juliette Benzoni was written in 1963 and at that time there existed no Internet, therefore that material can only be seen on that website and that is why I was forced to link so many times there. It already had been been very difficult to find other authentic material.

Juliette Benzoni died over two years ago and I thought this author, who sold over 300 million books in France and all over the world, should be better represented on the English Wikipedia. However, I appologize if I have unwittingly ignored the rules on Wikipeda and hope I shall be excused. I shall of course never contribute to that page anymore. The article is now edited by people who are native English speaker and do a splendid job. Best Laramie1960 (talk) 11:15, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

References

I am currently double checking through all the references one by one to make sure they are all in order and verify what they should etc etc, and see if I can find replacements for the now unlinked ones. It may take a couple of days. Curdle (talk) 15:29, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

Curdle The website where the links went, was not just a website with no realiable sources! And what more, there is and was no copyright violence involved as was suspected. The references were all good - authentic - orginal material from the sixties and seventies. I should have always linked to a page and not to the image of an article. Yet my thought had been: not everyone can understand French, so it would be best to link directly to the image, otherwise people would have get tired to search the material on the information page. I myself have seen images uploaded like that on other articles on Wikipedia. I would be very surprised if replacements for the deleted links could be found. I would have found them thats for sure, I tried very hard. I regret to say it, the links were overhasty deleted, before even discussed about them on the Juliette Benzoni talk page. Laramie1960 (talk) 22:15, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

Thank you, Curdle, that sounds like a fairly Herculean task. I did what I could to leave the refs as comprehensible as possible, but not to the extent of checking them all. As I'm quite sure you're aware, there is of course nothing to stop you from visiting that website and looking at the various documents there; as I recall, some are identifiable, some are not. To be honest, I think the text of the article is more a matter for concern than the references. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 22:35, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for that Justlettersandnumbers; Yes, I was able to match them all up and track them back and made a list/notes of what needs to be done for each one. I also read through the online articles that were already there, and theres information in them can be used to fill a few gaps. Once the refs are sorted out, then we know what we can work with to improve the text.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Curdle (talk • contribs) 09:40, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

1. new references concerning the Benzoni article

Curdle answers to the questions on my talk page:

• :Ref no. 3, I can see title, page number and magazine, but all there is is a year date.(L'Actu Littéraire 2013) do you have any information about what issue number, or exact date it was published?

my answer to that: L'Actu Littéraire is a Online book shop who sends his members four times a year a cataloque where they present new releases. It was formerly called "Grand livre du mois" and had chosen many years one of Benzoni's books as "The book of the month". I can give this information: Ref no. 3, Magazine L'Actu Littéraire 2012 - on page 50 Dernière minute the article was written to promote Benzoni's new book at that time La Guerre des duchesses, tome 2

• ref no.14 London, (1964) welcomes One Love is Enough- doesn’t appear to be the actual article, but according to whats there a its a translation- need the original 1964 french article details (date, who written by where published etc)

Yes the original French article is different and longer and it has a different photo. For confirmation, see the French Press page. https://www.catherinedemontsalvy.ch/French/Histoire/catherine-benzoni-juliette-presse-1.htm

• ref no.14 - Newspapers name Le Provencal 1964 - no mentioning of the journalist. I know we cannot see the date on the article, but there is no doubt about the year. The text is about Benzoni's visit to that Cocktail party in London, given by Publisher Heinemann.

• Ref 17 Le Figaro (2003) Arsenic and old lace- Arsenic et Vielles dentelles Jaques de Saint Victor- need date/ issue no. and page.

I could not find the article from the French newspaper Le Figaro on the Net. I can only guess that the article was once uploaded on the net by Le Figaro and then deleted. (we can compare that newspaper with the New York Times)

• the article is from 2003 - the journalist was Jacques de Saint-Victor. Below the article there is a short BIO EXPRESS - you see the year 2003 and it says: 2003: Publication du deuxième tome des Chevaliers. Renaud ou la malédiction (Editions PLON) and indeed that book was published in 2003

It is an excellent article, we get again a confirmation about the 300 million sold books - plus again the mentioning of President Ronald Reagan who wrote to Benzoni from the White House - to congratulate her for the way she wrote about the American War of Independence. There is no way to give evidence of that either, because the letter with many other documents burned in one of the rooms around 2008. Someone with connections should write to the White House about it. I am sure they would have the original or copy of the letter. I will do the rest of the qeustions later Laramie1960 (talk) 19:38, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

2. new references concerning the Benzoni article

Now to the next three questions you asked me. Curdle

• 26 J'ai un faible pour Catherine, article by François Martinez 1986 pge 13-14 - need title of magazine/paper it was published in, issue no/ exact month/date etc

The article was published in Bonne Soirée on 25 July 1985 - journalist François Martinez - that article is three pages long. We learn a lot about the career of the author.

• 27 Ici Paris (1964) 10 june , Les livres de la semaine by Henri de Montfort - page no?

Here I have no more information, except this: Ici Paris was a newspaper and there exists only the newspaper clipping the website dedicated to Benzoni. Yet if that helps, fr:fr Henri de Monfort was a French historian, writer, journalist and French resistance worker. He founded the newspaper Ici-Paris. It must have been a great honour for Benzoni that Henri de Montfort wrote such an excellent article about a Newcomer.De Montfort was a estimated person.

• :30 b Genesis «l'Étoile bleue» the Novels of Aldo Morosini- This looks to be another blog so its not RS- but in the wiki article, you wrote that Benzoni mentioned Aldo's origin in the preface of Les Treize Vents, so it may be better to cite the book itself. Do you happen to have a copy of it, with the page number its on?

Now here it needs a correction on the text, Benzoni explained in her foreword to the novel Les Treize Vents (The thirteen winds) that the Aldo Morosini Adventures originated from the request of a famous French actor to her, to write a television series script for an adventure story with him in the leading role,to be set in modern Venice.

It should have said: Benzoni explained in her Genesis in the novel "létoile bleue" that the Aldo Morosini Adventures originated from the request ect..ect. not les Treize Vents. (there is a Genesis in that book, but not what we are looking for)

the answer to your question is: the text is found in the 1995 edition of France-Loisirs (a very successful book club, DVD and so on..., not just online, we find these stores for example on Gare de Lyon - who had all of Benzoni's books in the their catalogue. The original edition from PLON in 1994 does not have that text from Benzoni) We find it on page 349 after the novel is finished - not with a number but roman letters. There are also two photos of the author. I am, like millions other Morosini readers in possession of that book.

I have to say it again, I can confirm all references I gave in the articles, I do hope they will now be accepted. Looking forward to your feedback. Laramie1960 (talk) 12:34, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

Hi @Laramie1960: and @Curdle:, I found a good source for the Ronald Reagan letter, and have added it. It also mentions translating the books into "at least 20 languages". So, this would help, if you are willing to change at "least 30 translations" to at "least 20 translations". Here it is:

References

I gave it a ref name, there may be other places it can be used.It is ref #21, now, I think. Caio! Tribe of Tiger ^{Let's Purrfect!} 07:15, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

Hi @Tribe of Tiger: Aha! Thankyou, knew that Reagan letter was in one of those articles, just couldnt remember which one. Another problem ref off the list then. I'm about to start cutting things off the reflist (ones I cant convert to print refs/book cover links etc), So we know which ones to work with; I know theres more stuff that can be cited from the articles that are already there. Curdle (talk) 07:54, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

Yes, it is hard to remember all this info. After I wrote the note, I realized that this ref was already in the article, in another section. So I put the ref name there, so we don't have duplicate refs. I think if we could "mine" the refs, we may have more info that's usable. You are doing a great job!!! Tribe of Tiger ^{Let's Purrfect!} 08:15, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

Hi Tribe of Tiger Yes, that is one of the article's on the Net where that unique letter is mentioned. I know all of them ;-) I realised an important fact, even if the Catherine website would have had an image of President Reagan's letter (it was also signed by Nancy, his wife) it would not be accepted as a realible source, right? Because no newspaper ever showed that in their newspapers. In that article you mention from 2013, the letter was already destroyed in the fire, otherwise I could imagine the journalist would have taken a photo of it with her portable.

About how many of Benzoni works were translated is a very tricky subject. What surprises me the most is that we must "rely" on the newspapers! When Benzoni died, one newspaper started to write certain facts of her life - and almost all of the rest followed what this certain newspaper wrote - even foreign countries! For someone who reads this article, it is nothing if Benzoni was translated into 20 or 30 languages. But the fact remains that there were found 27 foreign book covers ( I checked each country and found the names of the publishers and the names of the translators...) from at least 31 different countries. (those numbers concern only the Catherine novels) for the rest of her works there were found foreign covers of 30 different countries to this day. Since days I read myself again and again through all articles online or from my sources, they always repeat the same informations which you can already read back from the Nineties. I wonder if it would help if one of Benzoni's Publishers would add on their official website that she was translated into at least 30 languages? Or if a new article were written by a French newspaper who writes finally down those numbers? The author sold over 300 million books and her last book came out two weeks before she died, in that everyone agrees. Tiger, I appreciate very much yours and Curdle's support for the article. Sincerely Laramie1960 (talk) 08:38, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

Layout of Page etc

Laramie1960 Tribe of Tiger Considering the list of publications is so extensive, its a bit distracting to have to scroll through it to get to the rest of the article- I was wondering if it might be an idea to either split it into its own article as a list, or move it down to the end of the current article.

Yes, this was on my mental to-do list, to place publications at the end, as is done in other articles. But your idea of a separate article is MUCH better: Juliette Benzoni Bibliography. Tribe of Tiger ^{Let's Purrfect!} 19:43, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

Something I when researching refs the other night; Juliette Benzoni was also involved with comic strips. In particular "Dr Claudette" a sort of serial soap in comic strip style, and "Dr.Fu Manchu" (published in the dailies L'Aurore and "Le Parisian released" respectively) while working with Opera Mundi in the late 50's and 60s. She seems to have been responsible for "narrative adaptations" and "scenarios". I'm assuming that means storylines and possibly text, although I'm not entirely sure, due to the vagaries of google translate and general ignorance of comic strip terminology and credits. The site seems fairly good; has an editor and roster of writers listed. I looked up Henri Filippini, author of two of the articles, and he does have books held at a few university libraries here in Australia. Links to articles French soaps strips of Robert Bressy The return of Fu Manchu

Do you think its suitable for mention? possibly as one or two lines under career. Curdle (talk) 14:25, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

Hello Curdle and Tribe of Tiger I am glad that you mention the comics. I had myself wanted to add it, but forgot to do it, thinking I do it some other time. Benzoni was really involved in all that. Remember her boss was Paul Winkler https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Winkler_(%C3%A9diteur) an important man, who founded Opéra Mundi. Benzoni worked for the Magazines ( he owned them) which are mentioned in the above article since 1953 (I have seen that the Magazine Confidences de L'Histore has been deleted. It was the one where she wrote all those historical articles about the old aristocracy. Due to its great success, Editions Trévise published two books with material from those articles. The novel was called Aventuries du Passé, has on top of the book cover the name of the Magazine). Paul Winkler asked Benzoni (glad you found also that website about the comics) to create the character Dr. Claudette (texts included), Brassy did the drawings. She wrote the texts until 1974 - she was also asked to translate the Fu Manchu comics into French. Here you can see it nicely presented https://www.juliette-benzoni-officiel.com/les-bandes-dessinees

About that long list of the books. Not a bad idea, it really is long I know but I do not know the rules. Maybe it should be done as the French article does - except they do not have to add the titles of foreign countries. Compliments from me for the research. Laramie1960 (talk) 18:11, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

concerning reference No° 16 Le roman des Châteaux de France

Hi Tribe of Tiger ^{Let's Purrfect!} I have followed the reference No° 16 and read the article in La Nouvelle Repblique Le roman des châteaux de la Loire from 29/07/2017. It is not about the book which is mentioned in the Benzoni article. The journalist talks about Le Roman des châteaux de la Loire a new printed book from 2017 by publisher Corsaire. It is a book with the short stories from the book series (2 editions) in 2012 Le Roman des châteaux de France with Stéphane Bern's Foreword. The journalist made also some mistakes in that article. Benzoni did not write more than 60 books - but 86 books. She was not 96 years old when she died, she was 95 years old (born on 30 October 1920)

I would like to propose another source which presents not just the latest book cover, but also information about the book and confirms that Stéphane Bern (important man on French television) did indeed write a two pages long Foreword in that book https://www.lalibrairie.com/livres/le-roman-des-chateaux-de-france--volume-1-juliette-benzoni_0-1391762_9782262036591.html I hope that is fine with you. Thanks for all the work you and Curdle do for this article, I am sure they will soon take away the template additional citations for verification needed Laramie1960 (talk) 08:44, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

The problem with that link Laramie1960, is that its a commercial website, and that's a direct link to buy the book. It would be seen as too much of an advertisement, or possibly even as spam. If there's nothing in newspaper articles, the best type of place would probably be a book review.Curdle Curdle 04:39, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

Sorry for my mistake! I have reverted my incorrect source. Thanks, Laramie! Tribe of Tiger ^{Let's Purrfect!} 06:24, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

Never thought about that Curdle I landed on that website entering the ISBN number ;-) you know it is tough to know where the acutal review of that book is - and then not being able to use it. Especially with journalist Vincent Meylan (manager of Point de Vue, writer, historian, journalist) writing the review https://www.catherinedemontsalvy.ch/images/Article/news/le-roman-des-chateaux-de-france-juliette-benzoni.2-tomes.jpg Yes I know, cannot be used. But I found now this site http://bibliotheque.sceaux.fr/Default/doc/SYRACUSE/558255 and we got "two birds with one stone". We see the book mentioned in the article here, plus we see a photo of the author and even an older video clip from 1998 where there there is talk about the book series. Fact remains now, it links at the moment to the wrong book as I have mentioned above. I will try to find out the date that review was written. What I know is the year is 2012 and it was in Point de Vue, a popular Magazine in France. Best Laramie1960 (talk) 09:47, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for your trust

Marchjuly thank you for your trust in me, I have seen that one of the template's is gone on the article :-) At the same time Tribe of Tiger and Curdle are doing a great job with editing the article. In my opinion it is now a fantastic article. Best Laramie1960 (talk) 10:32, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

The Benzoni article in the it.wk

Hi Justlettersandnumbers I take the opportunity to ask for your help. I know that your Italian knowledge is top. As you remember we came into contact at the Teahouse because of the Benzoni article in the it.wk, where I thought it was copyright infrigement. Is it possible that you can support the article over there? https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juliette_Benzoni I am afraid that the User is probably too busy to work on the article, which is, no doubt about it, not complete! There are already some issues (templates) on top of the page. This is one of the templates:

Questa voce sull'argomento scrittori è orfana, ovvero priva di collegamenti in entrata da altre voci. Inseriscine almeno uno pertinente e non generico e rimuovi l'avviso. Segui i suggerimenti del progetto di riferimento.

I have asked for help on the Talk page of the article, but I do not know if that can be seen? The User who created the article has said to continue - but that does not mean other Users can work on the article. I am afraid it will otherwise stay the way it is... I know I should not edit anything there - but I can give support on the Talk page. Thanks for looking into the matter. Laramie1960 (talk) 10:51, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

Indeed, Laramie1960, I did offer to help you with understanding Italian (an offer that I think you misunderstood at the time), and am happy to do so. That notice just says that the page is an orphan – that no other page links to it. It doesn't detract from the article itself, and will no doubt eventually be removed. The more serious problem is that the article is hopelessly under-sourced, and that's what the other maintenance template is about. I'm sorry, but I don't have enough interest in the topic to address either problem myself. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 11:25, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

• Justlettersandnumbers Yes I did misunderstand about the Italian, I am sorry. But when all is said and done, it had to happen because we got now a great article. ;-) Thanks for explaining to me about the Orphan- template, I did not understand it. Yes I agree with you, it is definitely under-sourced. You are right, a topic has to fascinate, thanks for the quick reply and honesty about that. Laramie1960 (talk) 12:16, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

• La belle Catherine 1967 by Juliette Benzoni.jpg

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 12:37, 3 June 2022 (UTC)