Talk:Jewish Settlement Police

Recent changes

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Ian, I see you reverted most of my changes to the article. I would like you to explain a few points.

1. What is the sentence "They were manipulated by the Haganah into an élite force." is supposed to mean? To manipulate someone is to "influence or manage shrewdly or deviously". How can someone be manipulated to become an elite force? Should it be that Haganah trained them or something like this?

2. Who is a Christian Zionist? Is there an organization or a group of people who refer to themselves, or are widely refered to, as Chritian Zionists? Per definition of the article Christian Zionism, he is supposed to believe that the judgement times (or something like this) would come if sufficiently many jews were to immigrate to Israel, and then take on a Christian faith? Can you source him making such statements? As far as I am concerened, he was a Zionist supporter, not a "Christian Zionist".

3. Is sentence "Arabs feared him greatly" supposed to mean anything? If they were a military unit fighting some Arab groups, then those Arab groups would of course fear them. What is the point of writing it? The statement is simply way too general, it doesn't really give any information.

The way I put the article is much more encyclopedic, with more clear facts and less misty quotations. I am putting it back. --Heptor 14:28, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Heptor, Have you simply changed this article because Moshe asked you to do so on your talk page [1] or have you consulted the sources supplied in the article and found them to be inaccurate? You have deleted one source (Katz); no reader can check it, and you've changed the other so that if anyone does check it they'll find it to be wrong. Black says that Wingate was a Christian Zionist, and so do three other sources that I have checked. This is a specific quotation placed in quotation marks. You can check three of the references for yourself here [2]. Katz says "the Arabs feared them greatly". This is a direct quotation and should be in quotation marks. You can check it yourself here [3].

I followed the link Moshe gave, read the article and did my best to improve it. I already explained why I deleted the sentence containing the Katz quotation. Yes, I understand that there are sources claiming that Wingate was a Christian Zionist. Still, in the way the quotation is included, most readers would consider it a fact. If you want to include quotations about a person, you are welcome to do so in the quotation section. As to the sentence "the Arabs feared them greatly", it is a blanket term, even if quoted from somewhere else. --Heptor 17:20, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Heptor, your edits

Heptor, please respond to my questions about your edits posted on your talk page here --Ian Pitchford 19:00, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

I did; please move both your questions and my response to this talk page, where they after all do belong. --Heptor 19:41, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Articles aren't improved by the deletion of sources and facts Heptor. I'm sure you don't believe that ignorance is a good thing. Why should readers not know that the Hagana developed the JSP into an elite force, that the Arabs feared them, and that Wingate was a fanatical Christian Zionist? He's a significant figure in the history of this period. Indeed, Moshe Dayan called Wingate a "genius" and admired him greatly. Ariel Sharon was an instructor in the JSP. If you are going to keep deleting sources the article might as well be put up at "Votes for Deletion" and readers can remain in ignorance. --Ian Pitchford 20:10, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

If you establish that he indeed was a Christian Zionist, that is fine by me. At the time present, you have one author describing him as a Christian Zionist. Did Wingate regard himself as a Chritian Zionist? Did he publically announced that he had believes that you find consistent with Christian Zionism? At time present, you have one author who labeled him as a Chritian Zionist, and this is not notable.

Please note, I do not claim that he was not a Chritian Zionist, there is not enough sources to make any claim in an encyclopedia.

BTW, I trust that in "Wingate was a fanatical Christian Zionist", i believe the word fanatical comes strait from your heart? --Heptor 22:09, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Serious naming problem with this article

The name is "מישטרת הישובים העבריים" and not "משטרת ההתנחלויות היהודיות" - so the article is misnamed because of bad translation. link to Hebrew wikipedia: http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%9E%D7%A9%D7%98%D7%A8%D7%AA_%D7%94%D7%99%D7%A9%D7%95%D7%91%D7%99%D7%9D_%D7%94%D7%A2%D7%91%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%99%D7%9D

Zeq 06:45, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

PS since the word "settlement" carry today a specific meaning - it is important to have an accurate translation of the Hebrew name. Zeq 06:52, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

This the English language Wikipedia and English language sources, including the Jewish Virtual Library [4], use the term "Jewish Settlement Police". --Ian Pitchford 18:57, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Still, this is not the correct name. In any case if yo think JVL is a WP:RS we shoukld use it for Nakba as well:

[5] Zeq 22:50, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

It is the correct name and even the Hebrew Wikipedia article to which you refer above uses it. --Ian Pitchford 23:03, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

You are wrong. and even Wikipedia in Hebrew can be wrong. Zeq 23:26, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Neither Google nor Google Books has a single reference to "Hebrew Villages Police". --Ian Pitchford 23:46, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

I suggest you learn Hebrew and find out what "מישטרת הישובים העבריים means. Zeq 16:43, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

I have checked with Hebrew and english exprest and the correct translation is Hebrew Comunities Police - I will move the article unless Ian can bring some expert translation that shows this is not correct. MY suggestion is that you consult an Hebrew speaker what "מישטרת הישובים העבריים means and the diffrence in Hebrew between ישוב and התנחלות Zeq 16:54, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Correct name for this article

will be "Hebrew Communities Police" - please see talk above. Zeq 16:57, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

What does "translation" have to do with it? This was a British organization and it had an English language name. --Ian Pitchford 17:35, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Really ? This has a very clear Hebrew name and the that is the name the organization is known by. Now the only issue is to properaly translate this name. Zeq 18:54, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

The Hebrew name obviously isn't clear as you've given several different versions. --Ian Pitchford 19:17, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

"Ivri" literally means "Hebrew", but is typically used to mean "Jewish". "Yishuv" is typically translated as "settlement" - "community" would more often be "eidah" or "tsibbur". In any event, the question of exact translation is moot, as the standard English name was "Jewish Settlement Police", regardless of the accuracy of the translation. Jayjg ^(talk) 19:29, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree Jay. BTW someone seems to have changed the English in the Hebrew language version from "Jewish Settlement Police" to "Hebrew Settlement Police" and then to "Hebrew Communities Police" over the last two days. --Ian Pitchford 19:33, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, an IP editor. Odd, that. :-0 Jayjg ^(talk) 19:38, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Amazingly enough, the same IP editor that changed the translation on Hebrew Wikipedia is also the one who signed himself Zeq on this Talk: page. [6] Jayjg ^(talk) 01:29, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

That is being discussed in Hebrew wikipedia. In any case we here need to find the accurate translation for a Hebrew term: משטרת הישובי העבריים Jay have you looked up in a dictionary ? Zeq 20:41, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Discussions with Jayjg, (who knows Hebrew) and exmaples I have given him convinced me that Yeshuv is Kehila (gave Jay several examples where it is used this way) also it is clear that עבריים is Hebrew and not Jewish. The organization was a secular one. Zeq 21:11, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, except for the fact that "Kehilla" means "community", and the fact that Israeli government itself translates "Yishuv" as "settlement", and that the phrase "Yishuv Kehilati", or "community settlement" is meaningless unless Yishuv means something different from kehilla. Please go fight for some reasonable cause, Zeq, not this one which is neither factually nor historically correct. Jayjg ^(talk) 01:29, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

References

Hi Ian,

I see you found some interesting references, but could please expand them somewhat? Anyone who would do research on the article may have a hard time locating "Tal, p. 68". -- Heptor _talk 16:17, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

There is only one Tal mentioned in the bibliography, but I've fixed the year. --Ian Pitchford 19:58, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Hebrew Wikipedia

There seems to be information on this subject on Hebrew Wikipedia. Zeq and Jayjg, maybe you could see if anything could be used here? English sources are prefered, but as far as I remember the policy, foreign are also acceptable if nothing else is available. -- Heptor _talk 16:24, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

The Hebrew version has much the same information as the English language article: founded in 1936, sponsored by the British, legal authority etc. There is some additional information on the Jewish and British names, the 10 regional battalions, 15,000 strong by 1937, adoption of the Australian hat style etc. Personally, I find the information on regional battalions, their names and colours (taken from here) most interesting and worthy of inclusion. --Ian Pitchford 20:08, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Congratulations

Very nice and good work, Ian !
I have started the translation in French. Alithien 21:32, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

References

Hi again,
I have a "little question of neutrality". What is the source of what is underlined ?

The Haganah used the force as a "Training Centre" and put as many of its members through the JSP as possible

Thanks you, Alithien 21:34, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

That's Levenberg, 1993, p. 156 - a source available in Google Books--Ian Pitchford 18:35, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, Ian ! This article doesn't deserve the "featured article label" by the length but it deserves this by the "methodology". Alithien 12:57, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Jewish Supernumerary Police

Are Jewish Supernumerary Police & Jewish Settlement Police actually the same organisations? I have changed the links to photographs in Ma'abarot, Israel & Kfar Ruppin on the strength of the uniforms shown in these articles. Padres Hana (talk) 20:24, 27 August 2020 (UTC)