Talk:Jerrier A. Haddad

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origin[edit]

There’s no reliable secondary source that says his mother was lebanese, the claim is only supported by the Familysearch source, which is generally unreliable, per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources, there have to be reliable secondary sources that clearly state Jerrier had Lebanese origin, otherwise, this is considered an original search.

Primary sources must be supported by reliable secondary sources, a secondary source usually provides analysis, commentary, evaluation, context, and interpretation. It is this act of going beyond simple description, and telling us the meaning behind the simple facts, that makes them valuable to Wikipedia.

Please check: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research

Haddad’s father was a famous writer from Syria, we have reliable sources supporting this. https://www.nytimes.com/2003/06/16/classified/paid-notice-deaths-abdelnour-lila-helen.html

Whatsupkarren (talk) 11:57, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

So the master sock puppeteer is back to promoting Syria all over Wikipedia and to remove any Lebanese connection from as many people as he possible can. Im already seeing some questionable "debates" in talk pages between you and other questionable users that look like one of your sockpuppets.

Familysearch contains scans of official acts from the National Archives of the United States which is as reliable source that states the place of birth of a person. If you have an issue with the wording, you can simply state that his father was born in Homs and his mother was born in Lebanon.

Why would the Lebanese government make Jerrier Haddad a recipient of the Order of the Cedars Medal in Lebanon in 1970 if he had no connection to Lebanon? Chris O' Hare (talk) 13:43, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

First off, I'm going to ask you to stick to the topic and remain civil.

FamilySearch is not reliable, per Wikipedia policies, again, check: Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources, this is not my opinion this is what the Wikipedia community has agreed to, the reason for that is that it is user generated just like ancestry.com

please check: Wikipedia:UGC

In addition, even if familyseaech was reliable, (it is not) but let's say it was, the source doesn't say his mother was Lebanese, it only says she was born in Lebanon, many non Lebanese mainly from Syria and palestine have been born in Lebanon since the 19th century.

Which means claiming his mother was Lebanese just because she was born in Lebanon is an original research and violates WP:NOR.

"Why would the Lebanese government make Jerrier Haddad a recipient of the Order of the Cedars Medal in Lebanon in 1970 if he had no connection to Lebanon?"

What you're implying here is that since the Lebanese government gave him the order of the cedars, he must have had Lebanese ancestry, well, this is literally what WP:NOR, which I'm sure you're already familiar with, tells us not to do, just read the first part:

"On Wikipedia, original research means material—such as facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published source exists. This includes any analysis or synthesis of published material that reaches or implies a conclusion not stated by the sources."

There are reliable sources that clearly say Jerry was syrian and his father the famous writer Abdulmasseh was Syrian from Syria. There are no reliable sources that say he had Lebanese origins, it is really that simple. So it makes no sense to say: "By the same token it can be said that his father is not of Syrian descent just because he was born in Homs." ( what you have said in the edit summary) Whatsupkarren (talk) 14:40, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Chris O' Hare just wanted to ping you so that you read my response above Whatsupkarren (talk) 14:41, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Familysearch is just a platform not the source per se. The source is the scan of his parents marriage act. I have worded things to please your well meant concern (considering your long history of twisting sources, adding new questionable sources, removing legitimate sources and sock puppeteering in the past)Chris O' Hare (talk) 14:55, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Again, you're clearly violating one of the central points of https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:TPG&redirect=no, by not staying on topic, however, I'm not gonna be dragged to this level, and will stick to the topic on this talk page.

Not sure what part of my response you're not getting, Wikipedia tells us not to use FamilySearch. Are you going to ignore that and just insist on it? Whatsupkarren (talk) 15:10, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You need reliable secondary sources that state his mother was born in Lebanon, using familysearch is not enough Whatsupkarren (talk) 15:11, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

But you’re not citing the official government document, you’re citing familySearch which is not reliable per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources

“Is not OR if you are not stating anything else besides what the official document source says”

Then why did you add this article to the category of American people of Lebanese descent ? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jerrier_A._Haddad&oldid=1212055176

also read wp:BLPPRIMARY

“Exercise extreme caution in using primary sources. Do not use trial transcripts and other court records, or other public documents, to support assertions about a living person. Do not use public records that include personal details, such as date of birth……. Where primary-source material has been discussed by a reliable secondary source, it may be acceptable to rely on it to augment the secondary source, subject to the restrictions of this policy, no original research, and the other sourcing policies”

this is why I’ve been telling you need reliable secondary sources to support your claim

besides, per WP:Primaryuse “ Many other primary sources, including birth certificates, the Social Security Death Index, and court documents, are usually not acceptable primary sources, because it is impossible for the viewer to know whether the person listed on the document is the notable subject rather than another person who happens to have the same name.”

“You also want to ignore that Lebanon gave him their highest honor and Lebanon does not give the Order of the Cedars to someone that is not at least half Lebanese”

i did not ignore that, Chris, I’ve already gone through this and I’m sure you read my response above. Per wp:SYNTH “Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any source. Similarly, do not combine different parts of one source to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by the source.” Because this would be considered original research Whatsupkarren (talk) 15:30, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reach out to a 3rd person opinion because in the past our discussions have led nowhere and I wont go through it again with you.Chris O' Hare (talk) 15:15, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Response to third opinion request:

This needs to be sourced via a secondary source. There needs to be reliable sourced coverage that says he has Lebanese ancestry. Familysearch fails in this regard and would be considered original research. I hope this helps. Thanks Nemov (talk) 23:04, 3 March 2024 (UTC) Nemov (talk) 23:04, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Familysearch is just a platform not the source. The source is the official government document that states the place of birth of his mother. Is not OR if you are not stating anything else besides what the official document source says. An official government source is a very credible source to verify the place of birth of someone. Im stating his mother was born in Lebanon which is what the source says hence not OR. You also want to ignore that Lebanon gave him their highest honor and Lebanon does not give the Order of the Cedars to someone that is not at least half Lebanese.12:26, 6 March 2024 (UTC)Chris O' Hare (talk)

You cannot used government records as a primary source for biographies. You still need a WP:RS to justify inclusion. Nemov (talk) 16:13, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]