Talk:Jay Chou/Archive 2

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Archive 1 Archive 2

Origin

Jay Chou was born in Taiwan. So Taiwan is his origin, not the Republic of China. Taiwan is independant from China, so why should he be from China? Taiwan is not a part of Chian

Taiwan is the same political entity as the Republic of China. Mainland China as we know it is the People's Republic of China. For the sake of political correctness, we wikipedians prefer the name that maintains a NPOV, which in this case, is the ROC. When a person says ROC, both pro-independence and anti-independence people know exactly what you're referring to. When a person says, "I'm from Taiwan," it may send mixed signals that one is pro-independence, which would trigger further debate from anti-independence people. Soapboxing on a Taiwanese singer's page is NOT what we need. Wikipedia is for information purposes only, NOT a place to express political views. -Pandacomics 04:18, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't think saying "I'm from Taiwan" is pro-independence, I've heard many pro-unification people say they are from Taiwan.--Jerry 19:26, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
I second Jerry. Besides, it's more specific of his origin to say Taiwan. For goodness sake's, he sometimes raps in Taiwanese. Cariel (talk) 19:22, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

For goodness sake, "taiwanese" language is actually a variant of min nan dialect which is not exclusive to taiwan. 58.26.136.5 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 08:11, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

References

A reference section is proposed to be added. where sources could be citedRealdan 07:14, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

A reference section has been added. Unattributable claims or attributable ones from poor sources should not be cited. Chou is adequately famous to be citable from good sources. SeleneFN 01:24, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Instruments

For the instruments there's listed piano, cello, and acoustic guitar. In this vid he's playing this flute thingy... don't know it's name so can someone take a look at it and add. Here's this vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JZ1FzhZMLM he plays at 3:50 to the end. Thanks —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.131.29.52 (talk) 20:45, 21 February 2007 (UTC).

Time magazine article

There is so much information in that one article that it's a total waste to just say "he's notable, just look at this time article yourself." There's stuff in that article that talks about the amount of freedom he has in creating his music videos, as well as how he creates his music, IN ADDITION to the story where Jacky Wu first discovered him. -Pandacomics 00:32, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree. The article is excellent and more information can be pulled from it. Please see my comment on Article Length. SeleneFN 01:19, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Article length

The article is beginning to get long (read Wikipedia:Article size) and will likely be expanded. I propose we move all information about the albums to its respective pages, directing the readers to them with relevant links. The albums themselves really deserve room for detailed descriptions.

The extra space can be devoted to expanding Chou's biography. As said by Pandacomics in this discussion page, there is a lot of information in the Time magazine article (plus several others I have come across) that can be effectively used to expand his biography.

SeleneFN 01:17, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I think the article is quite decent, if you think this article is getting too long, take a look at Angelina Jolie, her article is a featured article and it contains much more information than what this page has about Jay.
However, I am not saying to be a featured article, that it must be long, Eric Bana is also a featured article, but it's much shorter than even the Jay Chou article.
Anyways, I think the Jay Chou article in its current form is quite decent, very informative about his music styles, but then again I have heard most of his songs. Great Job overall, I would contribute but it's been a while since I did any serious editing.
LG-犬夜叉 01:02, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Another solution that I propose is that we take what's "good" from the pre-Selene Jay Chou biography, and just trash the rest. The trashing is just because the writing there is just so out-of-flow that it would simply benefit from a complete re-write, with sources. And if one had not noticed already, the pre-Selene biography section is the huge chunk without references. Also, we have more than enough good sources to work with to revamp this article. - Pandacomics 01:27, 5 March 2007 (UTC)


I agree with a major revamp effort proposed by Pandacomics, especially for the biography section. I hesitate to call on a complete re-write for diplomacy reasons - those who have contributed writing seem to hit on all the right points - but I do feel we can expand in a number of areas and improve credibility significantly. I have a number of ideas for sections to add or revamp, and I have incorporated them into what is our current (as of 2007-03-05) outline. Please feel free to add, change, comment - these are merely ideas.


----Biography (propose major revamp, writing mostly on Chou's pre-music career) done
----Music Career
---------Albums --> (provide link to respective album pages)
---------Musical Style (written)
---------Lyrics (written)
---------Collaborations (revamp - write on people that Chou is trained or composed for) done
----Other Ventures (to be added?)
---------Movie Career (to be added? actor, director) currently writing (SeleneFN 05:04, 31 March 2007 (UTC))
---------Book: Grandeur de D Major (written)
---------Endorsements (Motorola, Colgate, Warcraft, etc.) (to be added?) done
---------Shops (Antique shop, restaurant) (to be added?) Insufficient material
----Media and Public Relations
---------Public image (to be added - I (seleneFN) has started writing)done
---------Accolades (written)
---------Fanbase (written)
---------Response to the News Media and Paparazzi (written)
----Discography (revamp? only minor changes needed? needs tidying?) done
---------Albums
---------EPs
---------Live albums
---------Other works
----Filmography (revamp? only minor changes needed? needs tidying?) can stay as is.
----External links (revamp? only minor changes needed? needs tidying?)
----References (add as needed)
----Notes (add as needed)


SeleneFN 07:02, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Jay Chou is first and foremost a singer-songwriter, so I don't think making multiple sub-sections for his movie career is going to have a lot of text in it. And concerts aren't going to have a lot of information either, because concert reviews are honestly few and far in-between, especially with Chinese/Taiwanese artists. - Pandacomics 15:53, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I do believe you are right about Chou's movie career (and also about the concerts). We can group the movies under a subsection of "Other Ventures". I had the initial idea of putting his movie career in its own section because he has now gearing more time towards it. Perhaps in a few years his movie career can stand as a separate section. SeleneFN 16:19, 5 March 2007 (UTC)


In response to LG-犬夜叉: Featured articles should be somewhere between 20-40 kb, roughly speaking. They tend should be succinct and to-the-point. Readers of this article are either long-time fans who may prefer a long biography, yet there are some who only started to become curious about Chou's music or movies and may not care for too many details. At any rate, I am still writing a few more sections so it will get longer - the verdict about its ideal length should wait. That being said, other people such as yourself might want to contribute as well before this article is sent for Feature Article nominantion. I think we should be ready in 1-2 months. SeleneFN 03:57, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Speaking of other people's contributions, I personally know very little about Chou's works for other people and his mentor-like relationship with Nan Quan Ma Ma and other budding singers. If someone knowledgeable can revamp the "collaboration" section with this information, that would be a really helpful contribution. SeleneFN 03:57, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

more links

Baidu Music Charts for the week of Sep 7 - Sep 14 2006

I can't explain how thorough Jay's domination of the Baidu Charts is. - Pandacomics 13:05, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Researching about Jay Chou and his accomplishments is rather awe-inspiring. SeleneFN 04:00, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Who reads this Jay Chou Wikipedia article ?

If you type "Jay Chou" into the Google search engine, this Jay Chou article is likely the first and second hit. The kinds of people who might read this article can be long-time fans or new fans. With Chou slowly making a name for himself in English-speaking countries, especially after "Curse of the Golden Flower", it has occured to me that journalists, columnists, news reports may mention Chou in their work, and look towards this very article for some basic information before they write about him.

I came along this website (http://www.radio86.co.uk/explore-learn/culture/2049/jay-chou-asias-own-eminem) (written March 23, 2007) which features a Jay Chou article that sounds rather similar to the revamped version of the "Biography" section that I posted on March 18th, 2007. The sentences that were taken from the Jay Chou Wikipedia article should be obvious if you read it. Click on the link above. Since Wikipedia is a free, open source of information, I'm very glad this article is being used in this way.

This makes it all-the-more important that we keep this article as well-written, informative, well-cited and non-biased as possible. People actually use the information here to spread the word about Jay Chou to audiences who have never heard of him before. SeleneFN 08:06, 31 March 2007 (UTC)


And the writer gave us Wikipedians credit for our work! "According to Wikipedia, Chou and his current manager Yang Jun Rong have also recently co-founded a record company called "J&R Music," following the expiry of his contract with Alfa Music. As co-director of the newly founded company, Chou will be able to foster the talents of China's newest music artists." SeleneFN 08:14, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Asia's own Eminem? What a giant understatement.. Time called him the Michael Jackson of the East.. and Elvis. FufuTofu 22:40, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

You are right about that. Jay is much more popular than most of the music artists in the North American Market, he may not earn as much money, but he has definitely wrote more songs and published more albums than most of them during the same 6 years that he has been active.
As for the article from the UK, I'm impressed. Great Job guys, but I think wikipedia as a whole still have a long way to go for credibility because it's open-endedness, but let's not get into that.
Keep up the good work. LG-犬夜叉 18:41, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Hey, new information

http://www.china.org.cn/english/entertainment/204021.htm

Alfa's KTV venues might stop broadcasting Jay's stuff because his contract wasn't renewed. Have fun. - Pandacomics 06:15, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

中國風

I think this here should literally translate to 'China Style' or even 'Sino Style', instead of 'China Wind' in the article right now, as 風 here is really meaning to be part of the 風格. Thoughts? LG-犬夜叉 19:01, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

I have always wondered about this. You are right in "風 here is really meaning to be part of the 風格". But I was worried that to call it "China style" (or even "Sino Style") may cause people to think Chou is singing traditional Chinese-styled music, which is obviously not the case. What 中國風 really is - a mixture of Chinese and Western styles - there might be no good appropriate word for it. At any rate, I understand your point... it feels strange even for me to write "China Wind". I'll do a bit more research first and I'll let everyone know if I find something. SeleneFN 21:37, 3 April 2007 (UTC)


NPOV

I feel this article is way too eulogistic. Whole portions of text in there seems to be written by the guy's mummy or something. E.g. right in the intro the bit about "and reminds listeners to honor their mothers in "Listen to Your Mother"" made me gag. IMO, the article would greatly beneficiate from being toned down a bit.

Response to NPOV

Please remember to sign your comments by typing ~~~~

You are welcome to change the article yourself, as any one of us are. If certain sentences give you physical discomfort, by all means, do change them.
I understand why you may feel the article is overly eulogistic. NPOV is very important in this article, as you may guess by the nearly excessive amount of citations. I am actually trying to find major flaws in this person to include while writing this biography, realizing that people such as yourself may feel this way. If you find something that we can cite, please let us know! SeleneFN 22:34, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't think Jay Chou has very many serious flaws to be discussed. He's always had the "good son" image and even anti-Jay people don't doubt his music talent. I think this article is pretty non-biased. It does talk about a few of his flaws, like being a control freak, and calling paparazzi as dogs. To expand on what is already said about these flaws would be blowing it out of proportion. Even the paragraph about "Public Image" is pretty much what the media portrays of him (at least what I read in the news about him), even though it seems like a lot of praise. What does it mean when you say "whole portions of text in there seems to be written by the guy's mummy or something?" The text sounds pretty straight forwarded to me 142.103.124.100 23:49, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Well there's the thing about people saying that his vocals aren't clear, and those who say that he gives a bad name to hip hop / r&b. I mean, of course, unless we find actual news articles that criticize him as such. - Pandacomics 00:37, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

There are reviews that complain he doesn't sing clearly enough, and on the other hand, there are reviews that basically say that mumbling is his own style. Some people like it, some people don't. Jay Chou insists he won't change. In general, I tend to move away from music and movie reviews as much as I can, because putting their opinion is just as bad as any one of us putting our opinions. I think a sentence about these varies opinions won't hurt. SeleneFN 01:41, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to ask everyone if there are any NPOV issues in this article. Best to talk about it now before this page gets submitted for feature article review. I obviously don't think I've written any NPOV (otherwise I wouldn't have written at all ! ), but it's hard to judge your own writing for NPOV, so feedback anyone? Thanks! SeleneFN 01:41, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm just saying that it doesn't hurt to put in a large criticism section, because Wikipedia reviewers generally don't like to see that a celebrity is portrayed in an all-too-positive light. Adding negativity makes them more human. - Pandacomics 04:10, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! Maybe not a large stand-alone section on criticism, but worked into the paragraphs where relevant. His 2 most commonly-heard criticism for his music is the lack of change and poor pronounciation. I have just now added a paragraph of this under "Musical style". Apart from this, I really can't think of any other major criticisms worth writing about. Let me know if I'm missing some big flaw of his. SeleneFN 05:44, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Pictures

Thanks LG-犬夜叉 for adding more pictures to the article! SeleneFN 03:46, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

If anyone has any good pictures for his movie Initial D and Curse of the Golden Flower, that would be a very helpful addition to the article. SeleneFN 03:46, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

formatting dashes and ellipses

I had made an edit to this article to correct the formatting of dashes and ellipses, standardizing them and fixing those that were incorrectly used. I am confident that these changes were correct—typography is my living and my study. User:SeleneFN had "reverted standardization of dashes and ellipses because these 'standardized dashes' have joined words where they should not be joined." Per WP:DASH, the change and revert to this article deserve discussion. —Parhamr 05:14, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't claim to be an expert in typography, and I have little interest in debating with people who claim to be experts of the technicalities of a dash. From my knowledge, however, a word such as "ice-cream" should be joined by a dash with no spaces in between, while the words "great" and "but" should not be joined in a sentence such as "apples are great - but only if you eat it with ice-cream". Writing "great-but" joins these two words that should not be together. At least this is what I read from respectable journals and books. However, I have read your link to WP:DASH and Wikipedia does seem to prefer your proposed style of writing dashes. Please change the dash (and ellipse) styles as you see fit and know that your effort in this article is genuinely appreciated. SeleneFN 06:09, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Pictures

Ok, small things with the pictures. Although they're nice, I think it'd make more sense if the pictures corresponded with their respective sections. For example, Curse of the Golden Flower does not reflect much on Jay's fanbase. It would probably be better suited for the Movies section.

Putting the posters in "Movies" serves only an identification purpose. Putting it in Fanbase to convey the point that Chou is received much differently in Asia and the US gives the posters meaning. SeleneFN 03:11, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Also, I daresay using the posters in a comparative argument is a little more intelligent than just saying "this is a poster for Curse of the Golden Flower". Everyone can Google for a picture of Curse of the Golden Flower, but not everyone make a comparison of the two to make a point. :)
In fact, one of the criteria for "Fair Use" of a non-free image (such as the posters) is that it must be used to argue something. Strictly speaking, its use as identification is not enough. SeleneFN 04:02, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Other thing, about the polyphony and musical structure of Jay's songs...why don't we just insert musical samples? Because musical analysis is fairly subjective, so if people actually hear the actual song, it'll be like "Hey, yeah, I see where you're coming from." I will volunteer to make the clips if you guys can tell me where to make the cuts. - Pandacomics 02:55, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Music theory is highly systematic and not subjective - e.g. "polyphony" and "counterpoint" are thoroughly defined terms. Anyways, doesn't matter. You make a good point because not everyone knows music theory. Thanks for volunteering to make sound samples. Are they hard to make? SeleneFN 04:02, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
No, they're just time consuming. You're probably more familiar with Jay Chou music than I am (haha, sounds like you and S.H.E), so I can probably do the cutting, while you identify cuts. Oh by the way, on the message on your talk, I was leaning (much more) towards the copyediting comment, if you get my drift. - Pandacomics 17:12, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Feature article!

Congratulations to all fans of Jay Chou! This article has now been promoted to a Feature Article, placed under "Music"! Thank you very much to all the editors and reviewers who helped! You can read the reviewers' comments at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/Jay_Chou SeleneFN 04:58, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Western critics' praise for Jay's Curse of the Golden Flower Movie performance

I removed one of the links to a review site 'filmthreat'. Apparently it was an unfavarouble review by the website. But this link is wrongly cited as "a praise for Jay's performance". It is mentioned on the website his performance 'was like a popstar, all pouts and posing, with nary a crumb of genuine information to share', which is quite true. But I do not think a statement like this constitutes a praise. Perhaps someone should post references to all the unfavourable reviews to Jay's performance to include this citation, I'm sure there will be a fair share of it.

Somehow I didn't manage to edit out the wrong link. Can someone please do it? This is the link: ^ Hall, Phil (2006-12-22). Curse of the Golden Flower (Movie review). Film Threat. Retrieved on 2007-06-02. This review only shows how lousy of an actor Jay Chou is, I do not think that fans out there would like to know the truth.
  • Of the 5 links to movie reviews of Curse of The Golden Flower that discuss Chou's acting, 4 out of 5 are praises, while 1 out of 5 (the one you quoted in this message) reviewed Chou unfavorably. If this Jay Chou article had been about a movie, it would be reasonable to discuss this one negative review in isolation. However, based on the 4 out of 5 favorable ratings, summarizing that Chou's acting was praised is warranted. SeleneFN 15:49, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
  • As for you request to "post references to all the unfavouable reviews to Jay's perfomance... I'm sure there will be a fair share of it", I have found unfavourable Chinese reviews. Of the English reviews that I could find that mention Chou's performance at all (or even elaborate on it in more than half a sentence), 4 of 5 were praises. If you can find some more links to movie reviews that rate Chou's acting favorably or unfavorably, feel free to post them yourself. SeleneFN 15:33, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
Given your (60.242.129.79) 2 vandalism edits to Jay Chou today by adding comments such as:
  • (you gotta be kidding me)
  • What a joke.
  • Further proof of the wanker he is.
It is clear that your goal was not to improve the article but was a desperate search for negative aspects of Jay Chou. I suggest that other Wikipedians do not take the edits or comments of 60.242.129.79 (unsigned message above) seriously. SeleneFN 15:43, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Jay's Female Voice in Fearless theme song.

Should we include Jay's Dan (Chinese opera) voice in the theme song of Fearless(Huo Yuan Jia) as one of his "music Styles"?

Well, it's one song. Unless he starts using it more often, I think it's probably just a one-time thing (to keep with the theme of Huo Yuan Jia and all). - Pandacomics 02:50, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Agree. However, it may be worthwhile to add a line about Jay's use of different "types" of singing styles to include the style in Fearless, as well as the constant use of the "RRRRR" sound in "My Territory" like a Beijing accent. SeleneFN 04:44, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

sound samples

A lot of songs are cited, but are there 4-5 in particular that should be noted? (so I can fire up the ol' downloader and cut the clips) - Pandacomics 17:32, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

I know you mentioned this issue before and sorry I hadn't responded to it. Thanks very much again for offering to make clips. To be honest, I really don't know which songs to put. Well I have some idea, but it'll be nice to show certain parts of the song (some singing parts and some instrument-only parts) with a smooth transition in between. I don't even know if that's possible without using some really advanced sound editing program. Anyways, I was thinking maybe these songs: 止戰之殤 to show a classical style; 菊花台 to show what is Zhongguo feng, 雙截棍 to show Zhonggo feng and rock, and 完美主義 to show what is counterpoint. What is the "legal" longest clip you can use? SeleneFN 06:04, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure 30 seconds is the limit (and in any case, you can't really get the "essence" of a song in 30 seconds). If you have specific cut points you want to cut at, then that would probably help as well. -Pandacomics 06:22, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm working on it! SeleneFN 18:33, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
How about this (hm... I hope the track durations that I have match yours... I got these from the true-copy CDs):
Nunchucks 1:45 - 2:15
Ju Hua Tai 2:20 - 2:50
完美主義 1:29 - 1:59
SeleneFN 07:44, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Player

"Although each relationship (with the exception of Patty Hou[32]) has been denied by Chou, these reports have given him a "player" image." -- this should be elaborated and/or sourced, if possible. Chensiyuan (talk) 13:23, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Jaychou jay.jpg

Image:Jaychou jay.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 16:51, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Jaychou novemberschopin.jpg

Image:Jaychou novemberschopin.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 16:52, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Zhou Jielun

Doesn't Zhou Jielun like his Chinese name? Or all names in Taiwan should be translated into English and romanising surnames using bastardised W-G, which is used by a some percentage of Taiwanese together with a myriad of other romanisation systems? User Pandacomics reverts my addition in brackets: (also: Zhou Jielun). FYI, the search produced 7,720 hits in google, not quite an uncommon spelling. --Atitarev (talk) 13:14, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Because "Jay Chou" is the name he uses on all official publications, and on album covers. It's really just that. He never uses Zhou Jielun on any publications. If he used Zhou Jielun to release his albums, that's what we'd be calling the Wikipedia article. Pandacomics (talk) 15:18, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
The original romanised Chinese names of actors are usually provided, at least as an alternative (if not as the main entry) in most movie databases, Amazon.com, etc. Admittedly, many English speakers still may find it difficult to pronounce and memorise Chinese names but to show respect and for the information, I think it's only beneficial to know the name a person is known in his language. The choice of romanisation is the most common and understood in the West. --Atitarev (talk) 23:38, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
Dear sir, who holds authority over what he is known by? Jay Chou and his cronies at JVR, or an online store that chooses to refer to him in their own way (which turns out to be the pinyinized version of his name)? We do show respect for how he's known in his language. His name in pinyin is found in the infobox over on the right. Good day to you. Pandacomics (talk) 02:11, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Dear Sir, you obviously wish to be the authority in Wikipedia about the information in the article. Otherwise, why revert my edits? Choosing the names is like with any word, the most commonly excepted becomes the standard. Whether this is the Hanyu Pinyin or nickname, doesn't matter. Pinyin in the infobox with tone marks is the Chinese transcription, not the alternative name, the pinyinised name (in this case) is the English name by which Jay Chou/Zhou Jielun is known. That's the difference. --Atitarev (talk) 03:28, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
I fail to grasp what it is you still do not understand. Perhaps the following should make things less confusing for you: WP:NAME - "Generally, article naming should prefer what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature." That name would be Jay Chou. Enough said. Good day, once again. Pandacomics (talk) 03:35, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
I can see you're very busy reverting other people's edits. Can you do something productive instead? --Atitarev (talk) 04:02, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
I can. Removing fansites is another thing I do. I'm also preparing a list for Featured List. Is there anything else you'd like me to rub into your face? Pandacomics (talk) 04:11, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
You are rude and unattractive. If you want to use references, use Wikipedia:Manual of Style (use of Chinese language). See Introductory sentence, Romanization and tones. --Atitarev (talk) 04:17, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
You yourself are also a nuisance for persisting with this. I gave you a perfectly reasonable explanation, and yet you STILL persist in going with a far-out alternative that wouldn't work. I think you must've missed something in that link you provided. "This edition of Wikipedia is in English, so do not use characters or romanized forms excessively" Oh, sorry, what was that you added? An excessive romanization that is already in the infobox. Let me refer the naming conventions to you again. "The encyclopedia should reference the name more familiar to most English readers." What is more familiar? Jay Chou. "For most historical figures this means that the encyclopedia entry should reference the Chinese name (romanized in Hanyu pinyin) rather than the English name, with a redirect from the English name. However, there are exceptions for figures whose English name is more familiar (such as Confucius) " Does Jay Chou have an English name that is more familiar? Unless you haven't been able to read the "Jay Chou" on his albums, merchandise, concert listings, record label, websites, he indeed has an English name that is more familiar. Can you guess what that name could possibly be? Pandacomics (talk) 04:24, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Original research/NPOV concerns

Now, I am not the one that posted the maintenance tags, but I believe that this article has a few issues of the NPOV/original research concern that should be given consideration. First, I notice that the "Lyrics" section cites no third-party sources, which is treading on dangerous ground, especially since the section explains the themes of the lyrics, something that is possibly subjective. For example: the article states that "分裂" is about Chou's failure to enter university. Having read Chou's lyrics myself, I can see where the editors' interpretations of the lyrics are coming from; however, (as an example) the interpretation of "分裂" seems like a personal interpretation at best. I guess I'm just saying that it would probably be best to have some third-party source back-up these interpretations so they don't seem like personal interpretations.

Same goes for the "Musical style" section: (as an example again)"迷迭香" may very well use Bossanova style, and it might be the most obvious thing in the world; again, however, it would probably be best if a third-party source confirmed that.

Third, with no citations in the "Book: Grandeur de D Major" section, the statements seem POV.

There are some more concerns, such as statements that would probably benefit from a citation, but I'd like to see the editors' response(s) first. I'm still a novice Wikipedian, and if they have a good reason for their seeming discrepancies (hey, I thought the only sources one was allowed to use were online sources until a few months ago. :P), it would really be helpful to me. Thanks in advance. The Transmogrifier (talk) 04:22, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, you bring up an excellent point about original interpretations of the lyrics. If we were to reword it, I guess we could provide a sentence that tells things as they are, not what they might be. Using "分裂" as an example, we could say that it tells the story of a student who couldn't get into his dream school. But even then, it's still a small part of the big picture that is the actual song. I personally do not have Grandeur in D Major, so I wouldn't know. One thing you could do, though, is that if enough POV/original research concerns present themselves, you can take this article to WP:FAR. Pandacomics (talk) 06:07, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
Thanks. I do believe, though, that there was another editor (SeleneFN or something) who worked on this article, so if she has any input, I think I'll wait for that before rushing it to FAR. The Transmogrifier (talk) 06:33, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
I have been emailed a request to resume my involvement in Wikipedia, and in particular, to continue maintaining the Jay Chou article. Besides being busy with writing my thesis, the one main reason for my withdraw is precisely this kind of debate. The point of writing an encyclopedia article is to give an overview to a subject; this I feel I have done, with the help of many other Wikipedia editors. To discuss endlessly about whether he is Taiwanese or Chinese, whether he has had "too many girlfriends", etc. has solidified my resolve to withdraw my participation in this web-based organization. In this particular case of debating over whether the song "Split" is about Mr. Chou not being able to enter university - it seems fruitless to discuss this matter when one line of the lyrics already says "cannot make it into a good school". Even if this line of sentence doesn't exist, one must realize that lyrics, like any form of literature or art, is open to interpretation. I merely conveyed the meaning of that sentence in the lyric at face value.
As I looked in the history of this article for the past year, I am extremely disappointed to see that 99% of the edits revolve around disputes of the little things. So many new developments have come to pass in Chou's life in the past year, but hardly a single person has the effort to read a few news articles and ADD SOMETHING MEANINGFUL to the article. I guess it is much easier to criticize than to construct; picking things apart, and nit-picking at the smallest of things is presumably better for one's self esteem... compared to say, spending hours and hours to read news articles and editorials to write a small paragraph, only to be met by criticism. If the world of Wikipedia editing should revolve around wondering if every sentence has NPOV issues, you might as well question if Chou is male, of oriental descent, etc. I frankly say that if it was not for my desire to honour Jay Chou I would never have spent my time getting to the stage of Featured Article. Perhaps there was even a small hope that once it attained Feature Article, a small number of people will be motivated to make constructive additions. Alas this has not been the case.
Finally I would like to wish those (especially Pandacomics) who still find it entertaining to participate in writing and editing Wikipedia articles, especially this Jay Chou article, the best of luck. I honestly hope this activity continues to be a source of joy to you unlike myself. SeleneFN (talk) 22:06, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
Hear hear Selene, I came to this article to record it for FA front page and am MORTIFIED at the kind of detail within it and the debate going on in the talk page itself (the biggest woozy being the incessant and annoying need to convert his name over to the pinyin Zhou jielun.). FA reviewers likely overshot the menial detail and sought to approve it via diversity and article "fullness" reasons. But when you consider the endless banter that goes on in other articles such as Lai Ming, Tony Leung, Jet Li, etc it's no surprise a lot of the irrelevant detail sounds like Chinese gossip columns. .:davumaya:. 22:13, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

I am appalled to read that he invented the word "diao" when he did not. I changed it [1]. People have been using the word before the guy put out an album. Especially egregious is the fact that the sentence uses a Time article as its source, when the source does not even say he invented the word. It only says that the word is his guiding philosophy of sorts. Seriously, who misconstrued the source and wrote that it's "his neologism"? I am beginning to think that this article is written by fanboys/girls with tidy but misleading citations that elevate the status of their idol, and needs thorough fact-checking to make sure the citations corroborate with the sentences that cite them. Blueshirts (talk) 01:10, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Putting aside your personal attacks on who wrote this article, you are correct about the use of the word "neologism". However, SeleneFN, who most likely typed that sentence, probably knew that "diao" meant penis. In fact, it's stated right there on the article, recognizing the word's initial definition. If you wanted to fix the sentence, fine. That's great. You fixed it. However, I object to you resorting to blindly calling the authors of this article "fanboys/girls" in the sense that you wrote. Pandacomics (talk) 02:09, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Selling Out

Under the section 'endorsements' it is claimed that there is no Asian concept comparable to the Western concept 'selling out'. The references following (66 and 67) do not support this claim. Reference 66 links to an article about Japan, not Asia in general. And reference 67 links to a 'how to do celebrity endorsements'-type page, which, as far as I can see, is in no way Asia specific.

On top of this, the claim implies that Asian culture is monolithic, when it is in fact extremely varied.

I suggest that either the sentence be removed, or changed to refer to one or more of: Taiwan; the Sinic world; East Asia generally. The later should only be done if references which support a lack of a 'selling out' concept in one or more of these can be found.

On a personal note, I live in China, and have heard a number of Chinese people criticise Chou for 'selling out'. Donnachadh (talk) 15:31, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Quite ironic for the Chinese to feel this way I must say because many ethnic Taiwanese feel that Chou is selling out Taiwan to gain an upper hand in the massive China market. Some even called him a taijian. [2]--Certified.Gangsta (talk) 21:18, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Funny thing is, that article was created by you. Dengero (talk) 01:05, 13 August 2008 (UTC)


Southeast Asia

We do speak chinese in Southeast Asia. Please do not consider Southeast Asia as non-Chinese speaking region. Chinese is taught in schools in Malaysia and Singapore. This is for sure as I am come from Malaysia and now staying in Singapore. I can write these in Chinese if you want me to prove to you. Speaking and writing is not my self-interest, but a tradition to me. Our ancestors are from China long time ago and we still preserve the chinese culture here even though it will be different from those in Taiwan and China.

We still have government schools teaching chinese in Malaysia and Singapore even though our officail language in Malaysia is Malay, while Singapore is in English. Please wiki Malaysia and Singapore for the proofs that we do speak in Chinese.

For Indonesia, Chinese is not an official language but it is used locally among Indonesian Chinese. So, please do not categorise us as non-chinese speaking region - Southeast Asia.

155.69.161.47 (talk) 09:32, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

NPOV or not.

The whole article implies that Chou is Chinese not Taiwanese or that Taiwanese are Chinese, which is unacceptable. Now, Chou has been accused of being a Taijian, but until he somehow defected to China, this article must be kept NPOV.--Certified.Gangsta (talk) 13:17, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

First, lets define two things. You are getting the term "chinese" confused sometimes.
"Chinese not Taiwanese" <--That is correct. The chinese are not taiwanese.
"Taiwanese are [not] Chinese" <--Also correct, because the ethnic taiwanese are definately not chinese.
Then how, may I ask, do you define those who migrated from china along with the ROC to taiwan? The arn't chinese according to you, nor are they taiwanese. Jay Chou are one of these people. Dengero (talk) 13:24, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Are you sure? From what I'm seeing, he was born in Taiwan. But then I don't know about his parents. But if his parents were born in China, then we should probably classify him as Chinese and remove all references about him being Taiwanese in the article, especially since he was accused of being a taijian.--Certified.Gangsta (talk) 13:27, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

I have already disregarded your claims of him being a Taijian, since your so called reference came from a games forum. That said, I am 100% sure his origins (doesn't need to be his parents) is not native on the ISLAND of taiwan. So it really really depends on how many generations you want before he is naturalised into a ethnic taiwanese from chinese. Dengero (talk) 13:31, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Your emphasis on the word "island" highlight your bias against ethnic Taiwanese. It doesn't matter how many generations Chou's family live in Taiwan. As long as he is not one of the post Chinese Civil War people who committed war crimes against ethnic Taiwanese, he is ethnic Taiwanese. In fact, many Koreans lived in Shandong until the 18th century, such as Ban Ki-Moon, maybe we should call him Chinese as well.--Certified.Gangsta (talk) 13:39, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Committing war crimes and their ethnic origins/nationality have no relationship at all. Consider this: If I'm from Canada, I go to Australia and get a citizenship there, I am ethnically Canadian, but my nationality is Australian. Jay Chou is chinese by origin, but republic of china by nationality (Whether ROC is a country is still a debate, but pretend it is a country for now). Dengero (talk) 13:45, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
I acknowledge that whether ethnic Taiwanese is ethnic Chinese is a controversial issue. Most do not self-identify as ethnic Chinese. By parallel, many Koreans live in the Korean peninsula for a shorter period of time than Taiwanese in Taiwan. The case can be made that if we were to force Taiwanese to label themselves as ethnic Chinese, then the same should be done to the most of the Koreans.--Certified.Gangsta (talk) 14:02, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
What is 'ethnic Taiwanese'? The Chinese whose family migrated to Taiwan before 1949? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.165.95.70 (talk) 21:47, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
The aborigines, actually. Forgive the ethnocentrism. Pandacomics (talk) 21:54, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Let's once and for all round to the key problem: Is Jay Chou ethnic Chinese (meaning by origin)? or is he ethnic Taiwanese (having been naturalised after so and so generations)? Although for now we can definately stick his nationality as Republic of China. Dengero (talk) 14:16, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Since this issue will reappear whenever someone is from an even marginally disputed area, I think the only fair, neutral way to deal with the issue is to use his self-identification. Ngchen (talk) 15:20, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

The place of birth is currently listed as Republic of China (Taiwan). That is in violation with the NPOV section of Chinese naming convention: when it is about a place, we use Taiwan. I understand that NPOV is paramount to Wikipedia and it is not negotiable. I don't mind if it stays that way, but does anyone find the way it is listed not neutral?--pyl (talk) 03:14, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Chinese is 华人. It does not mean 中国人. There are many chinese all around the world, but it does not mean we are born in China. It is only our ancestors are from China. So, please, People from Republic of China(PRC), you are not the only chinese. If PRC go to taiwan, your offsprings will be a Taiwanese just like the other Taiwanese, but will not be considered as natives, 原住民. 155.69.161.47 (talk) 09:42, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Infobox nonsense

Is the inclusion of Jyutping necessary? Jay Chou has nothing to do whatsoever with the Province of Guangdong, nor the SAR of Hong Kong; inclusion of Cantonese is utterly irrelevant. I wouldn't see anything against including POJ for Taiwanese Hokkien since he is from Taiwan, but Jyutping is over the limit. I am removing it, with or without consensus (i.e. permission from fangirl editors). -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 12:41, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

It really isn't necessary. Pandacomics (talk) 22:01, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Leehom Wang's article includes the Jyutping on the infobox and he is also Taiwanese and has nothing to do with HK or Guangdong. Soangry (talk) 6:03, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Well then, burn it with fire. It isn't going to fix by itself. If an artist isn't a HK artist, and if they do not have any origins from Guangdong, Jyutping is simply redundant. Sometimes I don't really understand some of these fangirl editors. Hell, why not add romanisations for Wu Chinese, Min Nan, Hakka Chinese, Gan Chinese, Tibetan language, Sino-Japanese, Sino-Korean and Sino-Vietnamese as well? It's lots of fun to be editing articles pointlessly, isn't it? The contents of an article have nothing to do with the attitudes of fangirls, and should strictly be based on the person. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 03:09, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Total album sales?

I added a [citation needed] tag to the statement yesterday. Does anyone have a good source for total album sales? Currently, all I've been able to come up with is adding up values (for Asia only) from Chinese Wikipedia (which comes out to 23.15 million, not including his current album. -Multivariable (talk) 01:23, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Done. --Timish ¤ Gül Bahçesi 15:07, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Jay Chou discography

I have suggested the split of the discography section, because the Jay Chou article is getting long (approx. 20 pages). Even though the readability issues referred to in the WP:LENGTH guidline excludes lists, but it seems considerate of other type of users (eg Wi-Fi, 3G), to take into account the technical issues also stated in the guidline. A separate discography article could include more information (eg released dates, labels) and small items such as EPs, which might not be notable enough as a standalone article, to be expanded without adding more to the already long article.--Michaela den (talk) 12:26, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Endorsements section

The opening sentence to the "Endorsements" section does not seem entirely fair. Sure, there may not be a direct translation in Japanese for "sellout" but there is certainly a way to express this. Also, I'm almost certain that celebrity endorsements in the United States doesn't carry a negative connotation. After all, Americans invented celebrity endorsements, and American celebrities carry more endorsements than celebrities from any other region. It doesn't matter where you are, endorsing a product is simply another way to increase your revenue stream. I vote that this idea, which is hardly relevant to the article, be removed in its entirety from it.

165.124.142.144 (talk) 08:13, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

I agree. Why is this sentence >> "In contrast to the United States where a negative connotation is placed on celebrities who endorse commercial products ("selling out"), in Asia, acquiring endorsement contracts with major brands are positive testaments of star-status." << even there at all? One could have deleted that sentence and nothing would have been detracted from the article. The paragraph even starts off better without it. The sentence feels like it was added as an afterthought to add unnecessary relief to the issue or to hint/imply or in some way plant in readers a shadow of a thought that Jay Chou could be a sell out, even with the positive slant at the end of the statement. If the only rationale for the inclusion of the statement is to allay United States (and other places where negative connotation is placed on celebrities who endorse stuff) residents' concerns that Jay Chou is a sell out, I question if it is up to a Wikipedia article to affect what people think. Wikipedia articles should not work in any way to direct people's opinions anyway. --Secretss (talk) 13:45, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Yes, the sentence needs to be remove. The article used as reference in support of that line doesn't in fact cite any reference of its own in support of that statement. It reads as a piece of work in support of the writer's opinion. --Michaela den (talk) 12:54, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

martial arts

he has played some martial arts roles, does he actually know martial arts, and if so what kind? 71.194.44.209 (talk) 17:32, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

To my knowledge he has no official training in martail arts apart from what he was given for the movies Kung Fu Dunk, The Treasure Hunter, True Legend and The Green Hornet. According to news [3] he was chosen for his part in True Legend by Yuen Woo-ping because he saw Chou use the nunchaku in a music video. He learnt to use the nunchaku by himself, watching Bruce Lee movies. But he is not a professional martial artist, he is a musician-songwriter-singer turned actor and movie director. 小龙 (Timish) # xiǎolóng de xìnxiāng 16:24, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

why does he sing in Mandarin?

It's my understanding that he has always sung in a language or dialect that is better understood in Beijing than in his native Taiwan. This seems to be an important decision and not an obvious one. Could the article explain this?--Brian Dell (talk) 06:37, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Your understanding is incorrect. Mandarin Chinese is not "better understood in Beijing than in his native Taiwan"; Mandarin Chinese, not Taiwanese Hokkien, is the most commonly used language in Taiwan, and that is the language he sings in, so he is using the same language that he uses in everyday life. —Lowellian (reply) 05:56, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
Mandarin is also spoken in Taiwan, and his accent with Mandarin is distinctly Taiwanese. He also sings some songs in Taiwanese Hokkien, which I guess is what you probably meant when asking about this. Does that answer your question at all? -Multivariable (talk) 08:31, 3 April 2011 (UTC)
I thought the situation in Taiwan was similar to Hong Kong, where it would raise some questions if a Hong Kong native became a mandopop singer instead of cantopop. It sounds like Mandarin is more common in Taiwan than HK such that it is not as remarkable for a performer to go with Mandarin.--Brian Dell (talk) 00:48, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
Yep, Mandopop is definitely more popular than Taiwanese pop is in Taiwan, though both are fairly popular there. -Multivariable (talk) 03:09, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

We might be opening a can of worms with this discussion but to give you a simple answer on 'Why does he sing in Mandarin?' This is because Mandarin is the official language of Republic of China (Taiwan), ie the dialect spoken, taught in schools, media etc. Therefore Mandarin is the dialect used in his 'native Taiwan', nothing to do with whether his songs will be better understood in Beijing as Mandarin is just as well understood in Taiwan or China. Hope this has not confused the issue for you.

As for your reference to cantopop artists singing mandopop. I don't think it raises questions. For commerical reason, it is logical to expand an artist into different markets, such as China or Taiwan for they are large markets, eg the best selling album in Taiwan is by Jacky Cheung, a cantopop artist, shipping 1,360,000 copies in 1993. There are numerous others who have follow suit eg Edison Chen, Sammi Cheng, Aaron Kwok, Miriam Yeung etc who have released Mandarin albums and held concerts in these markets. A practical reason why it is more common for cantopop artist to sing mandopop rather then the other way round is because Cantonese is a lot harder to learn than Mandarin, with Cantonese having anything up to seven different tones for the same word as suppose to four in Mandarin.--Michaela den (talk) 12:28, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Malicious Domain-Link Removed

Gary Dee 13:16, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

Unsourced content / Featured article?

There is a LOT of unsourced content. Whole paragraphs completely unsourced. I would fix this or I will take it to the FA review board. LADY LOTUS • TALK 19:13, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

On Wikipedia:Good article criteria#Immediate failures it says:
"Immediate failures:
An article can be failed without further review (known as quickfailing or quick failing) if, prior to the review:
  1. It has cleanup banners that are obviously still valid or needs new cleanup banners. These include {{cleanup}}, {{POV}}, {{unreferenced}} or large numbers of {{fact}}, {{citation needed}}, {{clarifyme}}, or similar tags. (See also {{QF-tags}})."
At the moment the article Jay Chou contains four {{citation needed}} tags.
Another problem in the article: Most of the references use citation templates, but some references do not. --Oldnewnew (talk) 00:19, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
The immediate failure is for Good article criteria and this article is a featured article, so it has a little bit different criteria to meet and I think it's harder to fail an article once it's been made a featured one. I've contacted one of the FACR editors to see what the best course of action is. LADY LOTUS • TALK 20:31, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
Lady Lotus, I supporting delisting the article. Unreferenced content disqualifies an article for Featured status. CookieMonster755 (talk) 20:39, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

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Personal life

shouldn't it mention his past high-profile relationships with Joleen Tsai and others, and rumours of his infidelity and homosexuality. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.202.218.94 (talk) 08:03, 6 May 2018 (UTC)

Why is Jay Chou Taiwanese-American

I've never heard that he has American Citizenship, which is this fact come from? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2620:0:1000:1A11:8DE4:B1EA:ADD7:79C1 (talk) 00:28, 19 June 2019 (UTC)

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