Talk:Ireland/Archive 6

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de jure

The use of the phrase "de jure" seems a little pompous and difficult to understand (to many people). I think WP style recommends such phrases not be used ... "for instance" being preferred to "e.g." and so on ... there must be an English substitute we can use, maybe "legal"? Abtract 10:06, 2 February 2007 (UTC)Capital City: Dublin

I'm not sure about the WP style recommendation, but I don't think there's an excuse to use "de jure" unless "de facto" is also used (which would enable most readers to understand the term from context). I think that "official flag" is the proper term, anyway, though I've just given it a shot by reducing the captions to describing what's in the image (it's redundant with the rest of the text anyway). RandomP 10:55, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Much better, thanks. :) Abtract 12:51, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Much better indeed. to state that the Union Flag was the flag of Ireland 'de jure' is unnecessary pov. (Sarah777 00:00, 3 February 2007 (UTC))

Irish flag

Enthusiasts of the Irish flag - please go to Talk:Green and see the relevant comment (end of talk page). Is my assumption correct? Thanks, Arcturus 20:34, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

What's your point? I don't get it. 86.42.166.50 22:47, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

I've left a comment over there. As far as I know, you are correct in your assumption. Martin 14:10, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Is this version of the flag the one with true colours? It looks more like the real thing than the one currently in the article. Arcturus 19:26, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Can anyone give me a good source to learn about socialized medicine in Ireland?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.76.19.162 (talk) 13:52, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

The green should be PMS 347, and the orange should be PMS 151.[1] The one currently in the article looks to be a better match to me, though monitor calibration is obviously an issue when comparing colours. Martin 20:54, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Article name "Ireland"

In the interest of shortening this a bit, and actually moving it into a section that's recognisable on the talk page:

There is a move to change the current naming setup for the articles concerning "Ireland", which is:

Ireland is an article about the island
Republic of Ireland is an article about the state
Ireland (island) redirects to Ireland
Ireland (state) redirects to Republic of Ireland
there is a disambiguation note on Ireland, which also links to Ireland (disambiguation), a long list of uses of the term.

Arguments against the current setup include:

Republic of Ireland is a derogatory nickname (is this one still upheld, what with references to the Republic of Ireland Act?)
Republic of Ireland is awkward. This is dispute.
Republic of Ireland is not used in Ireland (state), and is thus not an acceptable endonym (Is this disputed?)
Ireland is more commonly used to refer to Ireland (state) than to refer to Ireland (island) (Is this disputed?)
The official name of Ireland (state) is Ireland, and should be used in the article title

Arguments for the current setup:

There is no good article title for an article about the island (Is this disputed?)
The island encompasses the state, and should thus take precedence
Using "Ireland" for an article about the state would upset those living in Northern Ireland.

As far as I can see, the main question is what the article name "Ireland" should be used for, with three options that I can see:

the state
the island
disambiguation

The secondary issue is, having used "Ireland" as article title for the state/the island, what should the article about the island/the state be called? If "Ireland" is used for disambiguation, both questions need to be answered.

I would suggest that the decision on the main question is made first, and with as little reference to the secondary naming issue(s) as possible.

Furthermore, I'd suggest people share not just their "favourite" of the three main options, but disclose their full preference order by also saying which is their second favourite option (and thus, which one they dislike most), or indicate where two options are equally preferred (mathematical notation, say island > state > disambig, or state = disambig > island, should work fine for this). That way, we can also judge whether disambiguation might be everyone's second choice.

RandomP 15:28, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I was horrified to read that the official name for Ireland is Ireland. It is not. Where did you hear that. It is the Republic of Ireland. I can see you don't live there. Wardhog 17:48, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

If you are serious you'll be even more horrified to find that the official name for Ireland is indeed, oddly enough, Ireland. (Sarah777 23:02, 26 June 2007 (UTC))

"Horrified"? The Constitution says "The name of the state is Eire, or in the English language, Ireland". Pleidhce 20:55, 10 January 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.15.69.90 (talk)

Okay, it appears no one's following the second suggestion, so I might as well make a third: "status quo" is not a good way to express your opinion — not only does it read like you prefer the status quo because it is the status quo, it will also make the archives somewhat harder to read if that status quo ever changes. RandomP 21:02, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Opinions

My preference would be this. Have a page for Ireland, with just 2 options. Option (1)Ireland the Island. Option (2)Ireland the Nation. This page would not be a disambiguation page. It would only have 2 forks. 86.42.142.195 13:28, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Status quo. --sony-youth^talk 18:52, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Preference is for: "Ireland" to be article about the island. "Republic of Ireland" to be an article about the state. "Ireland (disambig)" to be disambig article. (IE: Status quo). Guliolopez 19:09, 7 February 2007 (UTC) (I have been following these arguments for several weeks, and, while I have not contributed (being somewhat jaded after involvement in the "Cork", "LondonDerry", "British Isles", and similar discussions), and while I understand the arguments for a change, I don't think a "move" should occur. A tidy-up of the intro passage for the article named "Republic of Ireland" may be in order, but a move will cause more problems than it will solve. Guliolopez)

Clarification: "Status quo" that means that the island of Ireland is discussed in the article called located at Ireland, the state called Ireland is discussed in the article located at Republic of Ireland, the portion of the United Kingdom sharing part of the island of Ireland is discussed in the article located at Northern Ireland, and these and other uses and meanings are pointed to from a disambiguation page located at Ireland (disambiguation). The article describing the island is headed with text to the following effect: "This article is about the island of Ireland. For the state of the same name, see Republic of Ireland. For other uses, see Ireland (disambiguation)."

Reasons for keeping the status quo include that this nomenclature is widely understood, . Each article title accurately describes the entities described within their respective articles without the need for clumsy clarifiers in parentheses or disambiguation pages. --sony-youth^talk 21:54, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Ireland (island) and Ireland (country) is not especially clumsy; certainly Ireland (country) is less clumsy than (The Republic of Ireland) - which is neither the Official name of the country nor the name most inhabitants would prefer to use. "clear and non-partisan" - you joke! If it is 'non-partisan' why are we debating the issue a year later?!! (Sarah777 10:38, 10 February 2007 (UTC))

btw, I vote for Ireland redirecting to a choice of Ireland (the island) or Ireland (the country). The status quo nonsense only means we will still be disputing this a year from now.(Sarah777 10:45, 10 February 2007 (UTC))

Discussion

Succincly put. My opinion is that we should try to look at this as though we were creating pages from scratch in which case we would conclude as follows;

Ireland is the name of the island
Ireland and Eire are the names of the state in Irish and English
This is the English language encyclopedia
Ireland is used commonly to mean both the state and the island, therefore we need a disambiguation page
Since one meaning is not clearly the main meaning, the disambiguation page should be named Ireland
Since Ireland has been allocated for disambiguation, the articles need to be called Ireland (state) and Ireland (island)

That is my suggestion.Abtract 17:15, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Do you have a preference between "Ireland" being an article about the state or about the island, or are those two options equally bad for you? RandomP 13:09, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

How many times must we do this? People are still going to vote the same way. How about getting some evidience? When someone types Ireland into the Wikipedia what do they expect to see? The island or a state occupying part of the island? We don't need a disambiguation page. We already have two very understandable terms: Ireland, signifying Ireland, and Republic of Ireland, signifying a state called Ireland occupying a part of Ireland. --sony-youth^talk 17:26, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

About once a year, I'd say ;). Evidence would be great, do you have any? How many articles link to Ireland when they should link to Republic of Ireland, for example? (And be honest about this - where a present-day geographic location is described, the state is overwhelmingly what's meant).

I think your preferences are island > disambig > state, then? RandomP 13:09, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

..."Ireland and Eire are the names of the state in Irish and English", would that not be "Ireland and Éire are the names of the state in English and Irish respectively"? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Djegan (talk • contribs) 17:31, 6 February 2007 (UTC).

..."Republic of Ireland is a derogatory nickname (is this one still upheld, what with references to the Republic of Ireland Act?)" -- I think you might be thinking of Irish Republic? This whole business (and yes it is quite literally a business, or at least a growth-industry) of having polls and moving things around is very badly though out because beyond a few hardline Irish republicans very few Irish wikipedians really care or want to get involved in the disruption of a move. This issue has been discussed and polled at lenght before. Djegan 17:36, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Nonsense DJ. If it was only 'hardline Eepublicans' interested then the name would obviously have changed from RoI a year ago! Clearly there are people determined to maintain the offensive 'status quo'. So they are, what? Hardline anti-Republicans (who want to keep 'Republic' in the article title!!)? Less characterisation of the opposition and more focus on the argument please. Otherwise this may get abusive. I've already taken several abusive attacks here despite only having got involved in the past few weeks. So someone other than 'Hardline Republicans' (whatever they are) seems to care rather a lot. (Sarah777 11:05, 10 February 2007 (UTC))

It was said in the discussion above, and I'm not sure whether anyone still considers it a derogatory nickname, or whether we've built consensus, at least, that it's not. Whether or not "let's stay with the current setup because changing things would require effort" is a good argument might also be worth thinking about. RandomP 13:09, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes. --sony-youth^talk 17:50, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, I wasn't around when it was discussed before. The only people whom I ever hear call (Sovereign) Ireland by the "description" ROI, are FIFA and British media. The FIFA thing was a compromise, to avoid an all out "war". And we know that the British, generally, always had a prob with Ireland, ROI, Eire, or whatever, and engaged in an economic war to destroy Ireland after its independence. Enough! 86.42.184.231 18:12, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

No. --sony-youth^talk 19:19, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

"Republic of Ireland" is in no way a nickname or in any way derogatory; the Republic of Ireland Act states "that the description of the state shall be the Republic of Ireland". Ireland is referred to as the Republic of Ireland widely both in Ireland and abroad. A quick Google search reveals 1,550,000 hits[2], and the term is used to refer to the state by such wide ranging organisations as The General Register Office, Tourism Ireland, The Bank of Ireland, The Republic of Ireland Billiards and Snooker Association, The Republic of Ireland Taekwon-Do Association, The Republic of Ireland Bodybuilding Federation, The Irish Embassy in Washington, The Association of Secondary Teachers Ireland, The Meningitis Trust, The Apple Store, Scripture Union, UCD Racing, The Cistercian Monks of Bolton Abbey, etc, etc, etc. I could go on and on. In "Republic of Ireland" we have a ready made disambiguation term which is already widely used and understood. I don't think I've ever heard of anyone referring to the RoI as "Ireland (state)". Martin 19:44, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Sony-youth.And it's clear the way it is now. Dermo69 18:50, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree with everyone here. It's just a technically wrong nomenclature. Opinion shouldn't count. The Taekwon-Do Association? Good grief! 86.42.184.231 20:28, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

What's wrong with the Taekwon-Do association? Are they not Irish enough or something? You said that the only people who used the term "Republic of Ireland" are FIFA and the British media. I was merely demonstrating that you are incorrect as it is used by the Irish government, various groups within Ireland, and it is enshrined in Irish law. The list above of 13 or so pages comes from the first 150 hits of the one and a half million that Google throws up. You're quite right though, opinion shouldn't count. The island has used the name longer than the state has, and it also has a larger population; thus, it takes precedence. If you change the RoI article to "Ireland", then we have to have "technically wrong nomenclature" for the article about the island, so I fail to see how your proposed course of action is an improvement. Martin 00:15, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Its a difficult one but as a simple test, assuming you are Irish - when you are abroad if some asks you where are you from what do you reply (no jokes please!)--Vintagekits 00:24, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Ireland! Of course, and with my hand on my heart I never referred to my country by any other name, that is, unless I am speaking as Gaeilge. 86.42.184.231 00:46, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Agree with 8642184231. If asked; always reply simply 'Ireland'. If asked "What part of Ireland?" - reply Dublin. If asked North or South? - reply 'South'. RoI never mentioned. "Ireland (Island)" and "Ireland (Country)" would be technically correct AND less offensive than Ireland and RoI. But it appears political pov is trumping factual correctness in this case. (Sarah777 01:41, 7 February 2007 (UTC))

There is no simple test. Many (though certainly not all) people from Northern Ireland would also say "Ireland" if they were abroad and asked where they are from. Nobody is claiming that your average Ireland (state) resident walks about in casual conversation referring to "the Republic of Ireland." Why would they? Its about disambiguating with Northern Ireland. When issues that relate to both jurisdictions, or when Northern Ireland issues of which the Irish state/govt has a concern, are being discussed THAT is when 'Republic of Ireland' is used. Sure, in casual conversation a phrase such as "the South" is quite common, but that doesn't negate the use of RoI. RoI's shorthand, "the Republic" is also common. And, RoI is not a British term. It was a label created by Irish people through Irish legislation as an assertion of Irish independence, and it is used commonly by Irish sources. Nuclare 15:52, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

It's difficult to know who is pushing the pov sometimes, and at other times I am very surprised to observe what some "Irish" Wikipedians will tolerate as being perfectly good. Maybe I have read too much, for too long, and I absolutely have no time for pov. Fact is fact, and opinions just don't count. ROI, is factually wrong, and as V & S point out, "Who calls it that, anyway?" 86.42.184.231 02:11, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

You're missing the point; the issue is not what Ireland is called. The issue is that there are two entities called "Ireland". For both technical and navigational issues, we cannot have two articles with the same name. Therefore, one of the articles will have to have a title that does not match its official name. "The Republic of Ireland" is the state's official description, adopted as part of the Republic of Ireland Act by the Oireachtas in order to signify that Ireland no longer had a British head of state, and that it was no longer part of the British Commonwealth. As the state has an alternative title, which is widely used and understood both domestically and internationally, it makes sense to use this to distinguish between the two entities called "Ireland".

There is no political POV being expressed by calling Ireland "The Republic of Ireland", other than the factual point of view that Ireland is no longer a British dominion. I find it completely baffling that a title chosen to explicitly signify the end of British rule in Ireland is being portrayed as some kind of pro-British imperialistic POV nickname. Before now, I'd never met an Irish person who found Ireland's independence from the UK offensive. Martin 03:07, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Martin, are you trying to wind me up. Well, I am too mature for that. I never said that I find ROI offensive. My only objection is that the name of Sovereign Ireland, is Ireland, and is not ROI. And that is a fact, it's not a point of view. I know full well that many Unionist WP editors would object completely to my stance on this subject, and that would be for political reasons, and I am very sensitive to those objections too. The name is 'not the Republic of Ireland, and that is pure and simply a fact. But as I said earlier, it's not about opinions, it's about facts. 86.42.184.231 03:42, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Little old me, wind somebody up? :) Actually, my reply was mostly to Sarah777, though you did voice above your opinion that RoI is a term used by the British who "always had a prob with Ireland". Once again you are ignoring the real issue, and that is that while it is a fact that the Irish state is called "Ireland", it is also a fact that the island it is part of is also called "Ireland". No one is disputing that the state is called Ireland. We have to find a way to disambiguate between the two Irelands; the state and the island. The object of an article's title is not to give a completely authoritative statement as to what a country is called; it is to present information in a readily accessible way.

btw, given that you're up at quarter to four, I see you seem to sleep as much as I do - I'm glad we have something in common! Why not register for an account if you're going to be sticking around? Martin 04:00, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I have an account, but the password evades me, maybe I'll try some more combinations. You quote me "though you did voice above your opinion that RoI is a term used by the British who "always had a prob with Ireland" ", well that is true. It's not an opinion, and it does not imply any other meaning than what is actually written. There is no hidden implication there. Maybe Ireland should be the disambiguation page, with just Ireland the Island and Ireland the Nation, included on that page. 86.42.142.195 12:24, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Ah, but that raises other problems. How big is the Irish nation? Is it the 26 counties or the 32? The Irish government seems to think that it is a bit of both, and there are valid arguments for and against both assertions. This whole thing was discussed in detail almost exactly a year ago here. The vote ended up being 66% in favour of keeping things as they are, and nothing has changed since then; the island is still called Ireland, the state is still called Ireland, with the official description of the Republic of Ireland, and as far as I'm aware there are no new Wikipedia policies saying that a state's official name has to be the exact title of an article. I think our energies would be best put into improving the article, rather than flogging this dead horse. Martin 16:51, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I still demur from the WP format. All the world knows Sovereign Ireland as Ireland, which is totally and undilutedly correct. Then WP comes along and renames the nation of Ireland, to a name that is not it's name. Got it? The reason why France, Italy, Germany etc are called those names, is because all the world knows them as such. 86.42.142.195 17:11, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I can totally understand your objection and I agree with the thrust of what you are saying. But, as I have pointed out before, there are two entities called Ireland, and we must make the distinction between them. The current setup is the easiest way of doing that. If you feel strongly about it, by all means take it to the streets and try and get some sort of policy whereby articles on countries are only titled with their official names as sanctioned in their constitutions. But, this is certainly not the place for that. Martin 17:48, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

"The current way is the easiest wasy of doing that" ... I think not, the easiest way, as suggested above, is along these lines:

Ireland is the name of the island
Ireland is the name of the state (Eire in Irish, but this is the English WP)
Ireland is used commonly to mean both the state and the island, therefore we need a disambiguation page
Since one meaning is not clearly the main meaning, the disambiguation page should be named Ireland (the common factor)
Since Ireland has been allocated for disambiguation, the articles need to be called Ireland (state) and Ireland (island)

Abtract 18:15, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Abtract, I agree with your analysis. WP shouldn't change traditional or historical nomenclature for expediency purposes alone. I believe a vote should be taken on this issue. If Ireland must stay with the Island, and there is a case for that too, ROI should then redirect to Ireland (State), and not the other way around. 86.42.142.195 18:36, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

But in "Republic of Ireland" we already have a ready made, widely used and understood disambiguation for the state. A vote has already been taken here. It was decided overwhelmingly to keep things as they are. Martin 18:42, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I wish someone had mentioned that earlier; it would have saved a lot of time :)Abtract 23:20, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Wiki cannot hold unverifiable 'votes' to alter the Official name of a country! This situation is not acceptable in the longer term; Ireland (island) and Ireland (country) is the ONLY accurate and acceptable solution. The title "RoI" is pure POV. And I have had to revert a bit of vandalism in this article where, yet again, certain editors attempt to insert the Union Jack as the primary flag into the article titled IRELAND. (Sarah777 10:31, 10 February 2007 (UTC))

OK. I vote for the solution outlined by Abstract (above) for the reasons stated. Ireland (state) is fine and I withdraw my alternative Ireland (country). (Sarah777 10:54, 10 February 2007 (UTC))

Is Northern Ireland in Ireland? I remember some years ago having a debate about such, over high-dinner one evening with some "Northern" friends of mine. Well one strenuously denied that Northern Ireland was in Ireland and insisted that Northern Ireland was in Britain. After another glass of wine he compromised to his other "northern" friend that NI was in fact, in the British Isles. This debate, though unsatisfactory will I think go on.:)) Taramoon 01:02, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Again Sarah777, there is no policy on Wikipedia whereby calling an article something means that we are asserting that the title of the article is its official name. The voting was to decide what the article should be called; it was not to decide Ireland's name. After all, the state is in no way called "Ireland (state)", so by pushing for its renaming thus, you are nullifying your own argument. If you can accept that Ireland (state) is simply a means to differentiate between the two meanings of Ireland, and in no way embodies an attempt to change the country's name to "Ireland (state)", why can you not accept that calling it Republic of Ireland is a means to do so too? The only possible POV being asserted by calling the article the "Republic of Ireland", is that the state is no longer part of the British Commonwealth and no longer has a British head of state. Most Irish people seem to be quite happy about that; why do you consider its portrayal in this manner to be such a negative thing? Would you rather it was not a republic? I find it quite strange that even though the name "Ireland" is an anglicised version of the original, and thus has its roots in the British conquest of Ireland, the only English language name ever chosen by Irish people to describe the country - the Republic of Ireland - is being treated as though it was in some way anti-Irish. Irish men and women died so that the country could one day call itself a republic, so let's stop all this nonsense about it being POV. Martin 03:36, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

3==Re-open discussion== Aren't we missing a trick here?

Ireland is the name of the state and the island in English
Eire is the name of the state and the island in Irish - but it is used in English so wouldn't look out of place in the English WP

So why don't we use one for the article about the state (Eire) and one for the article about the island (Ireland)? Abtract 10:17, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Éire is already taken, in an article explaining the word. Even if it wasn't, I don't think it's suitable. From policy on naming conventions: "Except where other accepted Wikipedia naming conventions give a different indication, use the most common name of a person or thing that does not conflict with the names of other people or things." I don't think that Éire is among the "most common name" for the state. The current set-up however would comply with the guidelines: Ireland causes a conflict between the island and the state, Republic of Ireland is the next most common name, thus Republic of Ireland is "the most common name of a person or thing that does not conflict with the names of other people or things." --sony-youth^talk 15:32, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

You speak authoratively but "most common"? not by the google test anyway - Eire gives 6.2 million hits but "republic of ireland" 1.6 million. And the fact that Eire is "taken" is of no account since we could easily move that to Eire (word) or somesuch. I restate my suggestion, with renewed authority after the Google test, we should move Republic of Ireland to Eire (having first moved Eire to Eire (word). Abtract 15:46, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Eire is an Irish word, it is not an English word (irrespective of incorrect usage) and this is the English wiki, and theirfore it is not acceptable. Just as it would not be correct to locate the article on the United Kingdom at its Anglo-Norman language translation because that latter language is used in the parliament of the United Kingdom. Lets get real. Djegan 16:26, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Being an Irish word matters little, if the word is in common usage in English; "Paris" is, after all, a French word. Abtract 17:48, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

It seems that everyone has a different preference. My one;

Ireland, for the nation

Ireland (island) for the island. Taramoon 17:10, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

We tend to have this discussion about once every year. As soon as the editors who wanted last years change move on then this years cohort finally pluck up the courage for a new vote. The result; a lot of discussion that changes nothing but wastage of talk archive and talk page inflation. Djegan 17:14, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

The simple reality is that on a cold sunday afternoon (or as per your locale) its easy to discuss what you might do, but when it actually comes to implementing the situation of a change of article name any serious wikipedian knows that "Republic of Ireland" is not the title of simply one article but rather of a rather greater quantity[3] and that their are rather better things to do, even in wikipedia.

Djegan 17:21, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

You make a good point and thanks for not being too patronising about it. Abtract 17:48, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Just for reference, that rather intensive discussion previously, Talk:Republic_of_Ireland#Poll:_Ireland_article_titles. Djegan 19:01, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

At least Eire would be better than RoI. There is an arrogance in DJ and Sony's dictation on this issue I find unacceptable. And I believe it is based on a political POV; just look how quick they have been to characterise opponents as "hard-line Republicans". And DJs "the result; a lot of discussion that changes nothing but wastage of talk archive and talk page inflation." If I am really a 'hard-line Republican' don't be so sure your position will win the next vote! After all, I wasn't involved in the earlier votes..... Less dictat and more compromise is the way forward. RoI can be EASILY changed and a redirect from other articles using that offensive name can be easily arranged, as you well know. (Sarah777 19:14, 11 February 2007 (UTC))

Eire is in the same league as Republic of Ireland, its imperfect. Eire is just the Irish for "Ireland", indeed this is not the Irish wikipedia. Many would find it unacceptable, it is not English and amongst many Irish it has negative cognitations. Has this become a move for the sake of a move? Djegan 19:22, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Its one thing filing the article on the state under the description of that state provided for law its another thing endorsing a fiasco that would become Eire. Education in Eire or Education in the Republic of Ireland? Take your pick. I know where I stand, as Desmond O'Malley said "I stand by the Republic". Djegan 19:28, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

If people are serious about change then let them put their cards on the table, otherwise its time to move on. Excess discussion will solve nothing it seams. Either way it will be discussed in another twelve months. Djegan 19:33, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Yuck! I withdraw the Eire suggestion. See? I can COMPROMISE, again! (Sarah777 19:36, 11 February 2007 (UTC))

I think Ireland (Republic) would get over the aesthetic problems of Ireland (state). So Ireland disambig - Ireland (The Island) and Ireland (Republic) will do the trick. Ireland (Republic) gets over the suggestion that Ireland isn't really the name of the state. (Sarah777 19:41, 11 February 2007 (UTC))

I do understand where you and others are coming from, and if it was my decision "Ireland" would be the place for an article on the state (as it is the one of the least pov and the most accurate term for the state). However that is very unlikely to happen thus the compromise. Terms with parenthesis after them make me very uncomfortable. How do we deal with subarticles (Education in..., Economy of...)? Because their are places where these boundaries cross, between country and state, for instance Counties of Ireland and Culture of Ireland, and separation could be artificial and even detremental to articles. If we decide to use a term with parenthesis then we cannot believe that those issues will simply disappear. Djegan 20:00, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

That's actually not a bad suggestion at all Sarah, very creative, I'd back that. Deepsoulstarfish 19:55, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

WP must be for the reader of these articles. Imagine folks who know virtually nothing about Ireland try to make sense of the opening paragraph (ROI page). It confuses me, and that something to ponder! ;)) Taramoon 20:29, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

With respect, how do we show in simple terms (but consistant, i.e. terms that are not confusing) for an article title, for instance that:

Counties of Ireland, Culture of Ireland -- refer to the island?
Education in Ireland, Economy of Ireland -- refer to the state?

Because if we use parenthesis as disambiguation then this is a real possibilty of a failure in a new or proposed scheme. Some articles will apply to the island others to the state (this is a reality and maybe very difficult to avoid), and that is why "Republic of Ireland" is an ideal disambigator, though imperfect]] because its usage with "Ireland" as the island does not look as artificial as Culture of Ireland (island) or Education in Ireland (state). Do people see where I am coming from? Djegan 20:44, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

I see exactly what you are saying. But would that happen in practice. Like, once the state of Ireland was defined on the page Ireland (state). That would be it. All articles thereafter would be Education in Ireland, or Education in Northern Ireland. Honestly I cannot see the problem arising, once the state was defined. There would be no need to use the tag after that. Taramoon 20:56, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

I have to be devils advocate here for a while and mention that their is also the issue of categories. A significant number are in the form Category:XYZ of Ireland with Category:XYZ of the Republic of Ireland and Category:XYZ of Northern Ireland as subcategories. How would we square this? Djegan 21:02, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

And History of Ireland, History of the Republic of Ireland, History of Northern Ireland? Djegan 21:06, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Maybe I am missing something here. I can't see a problem with any to these pages or links. or categories. I just don't see it. WP is is in muddied waters on the Ireland/ROI topic, already. Taramoon 21:13, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

So it begs the question, just what is your solution? Because I am not so sure its so easy to fix something so undefineable? Djegan 21:16, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

It's the added problems that I was referring to last, like cats. I think I suggested earlier that calling Ireland by RoI could confuse, and is factually in error too. The RoI page should be, IMHO, Ireland (state). I can't see the imperative to make other changes, because of that. Taramoon 21:24, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

With respect is it that you are proposing, the article title, of Republic of Ireland be changed with no other articles, categories etc changed? Republic of Ireland is not factually an error, simply an imperfect term in an imperfect world (a description). It is used in the republic when disambiguation is required. For instance the postal authority, An Post, a body established by law uses "Republic of Ireland" on business envelopes that are prepaid so that those posting in Northern Ireland known they need to buy Royal Mail postage. Then their is the Republic of Ireland Act. Organisations with bases on the island often use it, for instance: http://www.ulsterbank.com. Sorry, its not a made-up, cobbled togetheir term! Their is a very good legal basis for its use. Djegan 21:34, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

With respect I might thing you are misinformed? Djegan 21:36, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

With respect, The name of the state is Ireland, (misinformed? - no), The description of its politic is RoI, (misinformed? - no). It's really immaterial if An Post does something for the convenience of customers, it doesn't establish a rule. Neither does the Ulster Bank direct nomenclature of Ireland, whether state or the island. Taramoon 21:52, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Republic of Ireland Act..."the description of the State shall be the Republic of Ireland." Certainly the official name is not "Ireland (state)" (misinformed? - definitely not). We do not always use the "official name" of things on wikipedia, as examples Germany, France, Soviet Union, United Kingdom, United States -- have I made my point? Djegan 21:59, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

You have made your point, and I don't disagree with you. My interpretation has validity. I would like other editors to have their say on this issue too. Taramoon 22:07, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Sarah777, please retract this comment: "There is an arrogance in DJ and Sony's dictation on this issue I find unacceptable. And I believe it is based on a political POV; just look how quick they have been to characterise opponents as 'hard-line Republicans'." I have never characterized you or anyone else as a "hard-line Republican" or any other such thing. --sony-youth^talk 22:50, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Abtract, re: Google hits for Éire vs. Ireland. WP has an essay on this issue. One way to start may be to try comparing hits for Éire against hits for "Republic of Ireland" limited to the English language only. --sony-youth^talk 23:27, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to chime in here, with two questions:

1. What is it about the island of Ireland that makes people think it's important to have articles about it, nevermind its economy, politics (apart from the obvious issue of the conflict), etc? As far as I know, with other islands not nearly contiguous with a state, we tend not to have articles about the islands that go beyond some basic geographical data.

2. How is the situation for Ireland different from that for China, which is similarly regarded as a single country by the two sovereign states that use its name?

My personal opinion, based on what I know so far, is that the answers are:

1. Nothing. For all intents and purposes, the island of Ireland is not a political, economic, or even cultural entity that it makes sense to write about today, apart from in the context of the conflict.

In particular, it's not really been said recently (or not loudly enough, at any rate) that pretty much every European country has people disagreeing about the precise extent of the country, meaning the "natural" territory or population that should "ideally", in those people's opinion, belong to it, even though de facto sovereignty is not seriously disputed. Spain has well-known disputes, various people might consider Portugal to be an integral part of an Iberian country currently divided into two states, Corsica might or might not be considered part of the country of France (though it's definitely under French sovereignty), sovereignty of the Holy See and the order of Malta in what would otherwise be Italy is disputed (nevermind the question of whether Vatican City is a country of its own, or a sovereign state in the country of Italy, ...), various people might still consider the country of Germany to include Alsace, the German community in Belgium, might consider Schleswig to be properly part of Denmark, or Germany, or whatever, Skåne to be properly part of Denmark rather than Sweden, the Åland islands to be part of Sweden ... leaving Europe, things get really hairy in the Arab world, for example.

In short, I think writing primarily about (perceived) countries (or "nations", or whatever) is opening a terrible can of worms, and there's an easy way out, which is to write about de-facto areas of sovereignty instead. The world is conveniently divided into those, with two or three exceptions. There is no strong need for an article about the economy of the island of Ireland, for example, just as little as there is need for an article about the economy of the Iberian peninsula.

2. I think the main difference is that China does not have an equivalent of the Good Friday agreement, and sovereignty is actually, not just theoretically, disputed in China.

In summary, I think the current situation is this: After the latest constitutional changes, and notwithstanding deliberately ambiguous wording in the consitution, Ireland is a state covering five sixths of an island which no longer has a universally accepted name. In the UK, there is localised usage of the term to refer ambiguously (and, thus, arguably incorrectly) to Northern Ireland, or the island, even where context does not make clear this meaning is intended. Outside of those two countries, the term is unambiguous, refers to the state unless specifically modified, but is still frequently avoided.

It's not at all unusual for islands to be unnamed, or not to have a commonly accepted name (in fact, I think it's a bit of a challenge to find a large island that has a name - not just a description - that specifically refers to the main island). It's also not at all unusual for de-facto sovereign states to have ambiguous or disputed short names, or names they don't accept as being completely correct themselves ("United States" is ambiguous, at least if translated; Jordan and Uruguay were originally named for rivers that formed their borders, rather than actually lying in the country; Gambia wants an article; Ivory Coast would like to remain untranslated, and violate French orthography; Bosnia would prefer "and Herzegovina"; no short name for the Czech Republic has ever caught on ...)

Sorry this is getting a bit long, but I don't see a clear threshold for when Wikipedia suddenly finds it acceptable to use the short name, which is almost universally disputed in its precise meaning. It worries me that the line drawn somewhere between Ireland, Macedonia, China (short name not used) on one side and Albania, Gambia, Luxembourg (short name used as article title) on the other might not be based on NPOV-derived policies but ultimately on whether there are significant factions of Wikipedia editors on both sides of the debate. How many people must think that "Germany" is non-contiguous with the FRG before we turn that into a disambiguation article? Does it matter whether they speak English or not? How about Canada? Serbia, if and when Kosovo splits off?

And as long as there is no clear threshold, all I see is the two consistent (extreme, if you so wish) options: use the shortest name that uniquely identifies a sovereign states among sovereign states (with the single exception of not using colloquial pars-pro-toto expressions), or use the shortest name that isn't ambiguous at all, which is usually the full official name of the country. With only those two options available, it's clear that the second one wins.

RandomP 12:33, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

You have genuinely made a good point here. Ireland, as a term to express the island, is not a very useful term. Articles about the island, apart from geograph and history, are simply just attempts at pov'ish nonsense. Much of the content, for instance, in this article falls into two categories (if its not history or geography): viz (a) exclusively or primarily about (culture, economy, sports) the Republic of Ireland or (b) very difficult to compare in a non-original research setting (population for instance is not measured using the same methodology, sometimes census even years apart; often their is just a token sentence for Northern Ireland as against paragraphs for the Republic; the two units have fundementally different health, economic, justice and political systems and a comparison would risk WP:NOR or just been plain irrelevant). Djegan 15:14, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I really don't get this argument.

"It's not at all unusual for islands to be unnamed, or not to have a commonly accepted name (in fact, I think it's a bit of a challenge to find a large island that has a name - not just a description - that specifically refers to the main island)." Try the list of islands by area. Places have names and it is not controversial for this place to be called Ireland - what is controversial is for the state occupying only a part of it to take that name for itself.

"In short, I think writing primarily about (perceived) countries (or "nations", or whatever) is opening a terrible can of worms, and there's an easy way out, which is to write about de-facto areas of sovereignty instead" - Articles such as the British Isles, The Americas, Europe, Sub-Saharan Africa, South Los Angeles, Palestine etc. etc. (and Wikipedia, without them) would suffer greaty if this were the case.

"... exclusively or primarily about (culture, economy, sports) the Republic of Ireland" - Its difficult for this not to be so since the the Republic occupies five sixths of the island and much of the culture of the "Republic" (e.g. GAA, FAI league, The Meteor Awards, the .ie domain name) includes the North in their remit. However, there is plently all-Ireland culture to discuss. The IRFU is all-Ireland, Cultural bodies such as Tourism Ireland, Foras na Gaeilge and Tha Boord o Ulstèr-Scotch and Waterways Ireland are is a all-Ireland bodies. Culture, history and geography is not delineated by states.

"I don't see a clear threshold for when Wikipedia suddenly finds it acceptable to use the short name, which is almost universally disputed in its precise meaning." The threshold is quite plainly put. It has nothing to do with short or long titles: "... use the most common name of a person or thing that does not conflict with the names of other people or things." There is no other common name for the island, there is another common name for the state. So the island is located at the article called, Ireland and the state is located at the article called Republic of Ireland.

--sony-youth^talk 16:53, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

You appear to be saying that because there is no common name for the island of Ireland, it should be at Ireland. By the same reasoning, the article at Australia should be about the island of Australia, and exclude Tasmania. The section you quote from WP:NAME would suggest that because there are two different entities occasionally referred to as Ireland, it become a disambiguation page. However, there are also different entities referred to as France, for example, so using that rule strictly would be rather ridiculous, in that virtually every page with a country's short name as title would become a disambiguation page. In any case, the threshold at which it becomes acceptable to use a country's short name as article name appears, to me, to be uniquely identifying the country among internationally relevant political entities. There's certainly only one of those called Ireland.

Did you see the "primarily" in the bit about perceived countries that you quote? Or are you seriously suggesting that Wikipedia editors are primarily writing about entities like the ones you cite rather than (de facto) sovereign states?

As for large islands not normally being named (in an agreed-upon fashion), my argument stands. Africa-Eurasia, for example, is hardly a common term, and it does not define which "smaller islands" are included. The Americas are commonly used politically, not geographically, to include Hawaii, Antarctica usually includes both minor islands and ocean, etc. Baffin Island appears to be the largest island whose name is not usually used for an entity that includes other islands, and it's hardly important.

RandomP 19:04, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Let's not forget; Ireland was divided into two, it was not shrunk by 6 counties. Martin 19:46, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

From an international perspective, the United Kingdom, not Ireland, was split in two: the new UK, and a new sovereign state, which is now overwhelmingly what people mean when they say "Ireland", outside of the UK. RandomP 12:23, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

"You appear to be saying that because there is no common name for the island of Ireland ..." What I actually said was that "[there] is no other common name for the island" (except Ireland). (I assume I can pass over your discussion of Australia and Tasmania since it was logically based on this error.)