Talk:Infanticide/Archive 2

This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Archive 2

Zodon is placing advertisements for legalized abortion in article

Editor Zodon had been assiduously but gratuitously placing advertisements for legalized abortion in this article. Speculation by advocates of legal abortion that it either has reduced, or will reduce, rates of infanticide don't belong in the article. In POV warrior mode, Zodon has taken every opportunity to do just that. Badmintonhist (talk) 01:21, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

There is no speculation involved. The material in question has citations to WP:MEDRS reliable sources. It is based analyses of statistics published in the scientific literature, as reflected/reviewed by high quality sources.

Please stop removing items that are relevant and verifiable with citations to reliable sources. If you think there are other views that are not being given sufficient coverage, please indicate what those views are and provide medically reliable sources so that the coverage can be expanded to include all significant views with appropriate weight.

There is no "advertising" involved. Abortion and neonaticide have been traditional approaches to dealing with unwanted pregnancies and unwanted births since antiquity. (Potts, Malcolm (2009). "History of Contraception". Glob. libr. women's med. doi:10.3843/GLOWM.10376. ISSN 1756-2228. Retrieved 2011-09-07. {{cite journal}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |quotes= (help); Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)), A brief history of infanticide It would violate WP:NPOV to try to hide or not acknowledge the common causes and trade-offs involved.

Discussion of prevention is an appropriate topic in the article, it is a customary part of articles in medicine. WP:MEDMOS Also, since infanticide is often not regarded in a positive light, it is reasonable to cover what has been effective in prevention as well as what is recommended by experts in the field. Zodon (talk) 22:14, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

I probably oversimplified the case, and for that I apologize, however you clearly have a pattern of placing into various articles pet factoids and opinions which align with your own interest in, and beliefs about, family planning, sex education, unplanned pregnancies, abortion, etc. Your entries are often "forced" into topics where they only awkwardly fit and sometimes read like info from a Planned Parenthood handbill. I have also noticed, without a lot of effort (or any real skill with a computer) a number of times now, where information you introduced or confirmed does not jibe with your source. You might ask yourself if you see your role here primarily as that of an editor or primarily that of an advocate. Badmintonhist (talk) 23:11, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Thank you. If you think the connections between material on other pages is not clear or sufficiently well cited, please bring it up on the appropriate articles' talk page.

An additional citation that gives extensive coverage of the connection between abortion and infanticide is

Milner, Larry S. (2000). Hardness of Heart / Hardness of Life: The Stain of Human Infanticide. Lanham/New York/Oxford: University Press of America. ISBN 0-7618-1578-3.

For instance: "The major difference between the nature of infanticide in the twentieth century, when compared to the rest of recorded history, however, is due to the impact of one modern medical advancement: the widespread availability of safe, and legal, means of abortion." (Milner 2000, page 122) This also appears in History of Infanticide, a brief summar/exceprt by the same author.

The book has extensive coverage of various research and historical/societal views and practicies on connection/tradeoffs between contraception, abortion, and infanticide. (for instance the lead part of chapter 5, pages 122-124.)

I have no particular interest in or desire to promote abortion. However in the course of reading about infanticide it is clear that there has been considerable connection between abortion and infanticide in scientific literature and thought dating back at least to Aristotle (Milner 2000, page 501). Zodon (talk) 21:34, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Nothing that you have said above gives me much optimism about your contributions to Wikipedia. My earlier comments seem to be spot on. You look for sources (often relatively obscure ones that are often only indirectly related to the topic) congenial to your point of view and push them as far as you can. Milner, for example, is not an especially well-known figure either as a physician, or as medical or social historian. There is of course, much surface plausibility to the notion that broadly legal abortion should reduce, and has reduced, levels of infanticide; particularly over the short run of years and particularly among new-borns (though for many this is merely an exchange of one evil for another). Beyond that, the picture is much, much murkier. As the Nobel-prize-winning economist George Akerlof among others, has postulated, legal abortion actually worked to increase, not to decrease the percentage of children born out of wedlock (he has also said that by helping to sustain the late 20th century Sexual Revolution, it raised levels of venereal disease). Akerlof's thesis has various aspects. One of its core components is that the widespread availability of modern birth control methods along with now legal abortion increasingly put pressure on unmarried women to have sexual relations, even if otherwise reluctant, in order to "hold onto" boyfriends who could now more easily find other willing partners. This is how a post-Roe woman, even if ultimately looking for stable monogamy, now "stayed in the game." Another major component involved the change in male psychology. Whereas pre-Roe men tended to clearly see their co-responbibility in the creation of incipient human beings, post-Roe men were given a powerful argument to deny it. Children could now be viewed not as the the chance product of sexual intercourse but rather as the deliberate exercise of a woman's prerogative, hence a woman's responbibility. In Akerlof's view this went a long way in explaining why post-Roe women were increasingly raising and supporting their children without help from the fathers. All quite far afield from infanticide, yes? Well perhaps not. I noticed no explanation was offered for the increase in rates of infanticide among "older infants" (over a month) in the first ten years after Roe. I suspect that Akerlof might be able suggest reasons. Actually I can. Perhaps it was the burden of women having to increasingly raise children alone. Perhaps, the "choice" pregnant women had been given was becoming illusory to growing numbers of new mothers. Perhaps, post-Roe, the proverbial "good man" or, at least, the reliable male co-parent, was becoming increasingly hard to find. Food for thought. Badmintonhist (talk) 01:22, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

PS: Within a couple of years of Roe the number of abortions in the United States increased by several hundred thousand annually. Even assuming a direct correlation between legalized abortion and the decrease in neonaticide, that's several hundred thousand abortions yielding a decrease of perhaps a couple dozen infanticides of babies less than a month old; and this followed by an increase of infanticide among those over a month. Not an especially efficient mechanism for reducing infanticide I would say.

"Baby-killer as epithet" section

This whole section seems like a very good example of WP:COATRACK, as as such should deleted and, if there is interest in it, perhaps made into a separate article. Badmintonhist (talk) 07:25, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Sex v Gender

Infanticide was not carried out on the basis of how parents clothed their baby but on the basis of the baby's biological makeup - its sex. Gender relates to a social or cultural construct or perception. Gender used as a euphemism for sex is an ambiguous timidity in an academic article, used as a synonym it devalues both terms if not rendering them meaningless. A male or female may have any combination of gender traits seen as masculine or feminine but most people are born one of two sexes which determines their role in reproduction (yes, there are some born indeterminate as nature is not always singular in its directions). Chrysippo (talk) 14:03, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

I concur. The tendency to use gender as a synonym for sex should resisted. 60.242.241.219 (talk) 00:29, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Improper narrative remove

An out-of-place narrative (with unknown copyright) was removed, and placed here:

A Child's View

Through the Open Window

She lay dead, covered with blood which formed a red brook across the mahogany door of her deserted room. The ceiling fan slowed down and her eyes were left wide open in astonishment. The blood stained her Jade green dress, which she bought this fall. The blood stained the crisp winter for now…

Spring arrived late this year. The bees began to hum in late April. The ardent butterflies began having their part of nectar from those little elegant peonies. Those scarlet coloured apples hung down from the woody branches gaily.

It is eleven in the morning and I am standing outside the Bombay High Court, waiting for my turn.

“Dr. Singhania, Mr. Rastogi would like to meet you, please come with me,” said a man with a cacophonous tone. He was a dark-complexioned, stout fellow, doing his job mechanically. The voice still reverberates in my ears.

“Sure.” I replied.

I began walking through the dusty corridor. It was a very squalid place, cobwebs hanging down like the chandelier and mosquitoes wandering like the soldiers on duty.

At last, we reached Mr. Ashish Rastogi’s cabin. It was quite a good cabin, better than that haunted corridor. Fresh Dahlias kept in the flower vase with those fat books arranged in the finest manner.

Mr. Rastogi was a senior lawyer who was involved cryptanalyzing the infamous case of Kuhu Mangeshkar. He was a smart, tall, fair-complexioned young man who had very sharp features. He had worn a brilliant black coloured shoe, the ones which you can easily see outside the railway stations and on footpaths.

“Yes, Dr. Mihir Singhania, good to see you. I heard from my colleagues that you wished to speak to me on the Kuhu case, please be seated. Be comfortable” he said in a deep, matured voice.

“Thank you, Mr. Rastogi. Yeah, I was waiting for this moment for a long time” I replied instantly.

“Please tell me” he said.

“I want to meet Kanak” I demanded.

“What? That is not at all possible Dr. Singhania! You know the matter very well. She is a killer, a murderer, she should be given the life sentence,” he said in a rampageous tone.

“She is not a killer! She is a psychopath! Have you ever noticed her behaviour? No! Why should you notice her behaviour? You only know to punish people. Mr. Rastogi, please for heaven’s sake be benign, be benevolent. She is also a human being!” I cried out to him as the sweat drops dripped on my shoulder.

He stood silent. The velvet curtains swayed in the mild air and there was complete silence…complete…

Next morning, I got a call from Ram Babu, the man with the cacophonous voice whom I had met yesterday. He informed me that Mr. Rastogi would like to meet me in his office this afternoon. I was thrown into the millpond of misanthropic thoughts.

Mr. Rastogi had sent me home yesterday and told me that he would inform me soon about the matter after speaking to the police and had asked me to wait till that time. I didn’t expect a call from him for I thought he would now take me lightly and leave the matter then and there but time hadn’t wished the same.

That afternoon, at the time when my shadow began to get smaller and smaller, I walked through the dusty roads onto my way to the Court. Mr. Rastogi was eagerly waiting for me then. Till that moment, I didn’t know why.

“There is some good news for you Dr. Singhania,” he spoke softly in my ears as we strolled together onto our way to his cabin. I didn’t ask him what then.

I saw 5 gentlemen sitting in his cabin, it looked as if they were waiting for someone for a very long time and I think I knew them. I even saw some of the policemen and recognized one of them as our commissioner. Sanguine thoughts started pouring in.

I sat down on one of the cosy chairs and then I heard my name. It was the commissioner who uttered it.

“Dr. Singhania, we are elated that you understood the matter so deeply. We are proud to have you. Hats off to you and we are even ready to allow you to meet her at the Arthur Road Jail but…but…but how do we know you would be fair to us and would not help her out to escape?” interrogated the commissioner in an incredulous tone.

“You can send some of your police officers who would be protecting her cell. I would have no objection,” I told him firmly.

“We trust you. I don’t think there’s any need of it. You are a famed psychiatrist, one of the best in the city. Tomorrow from the break of the dawn till the dusk steps in you can be with Kanak but I would inform the jailer to keep an eye so that you are protected, in case she gets violent. We have a lot of expectations from you Dr. Singhania,” he replied jovially.

I nodded my head and waited for the dawn to break in.

That night, I stayed awake for a long time envisaging the next day. I was gratified but also afraid to meet Kanak.

I still remember the dreaded day of December the Ninth last year. Kuhu Mangeshkar, the adopted daughter of Mrs. Mita and Mr. Atul Mangeshkar resided with her real mother Meena who was actually the maid at the Mangeshkar house and Kanak her half-sister, who was the real daughter of Mrs. and Mr. Mangeshkar.

Kanak was a tranquil-natured girl in her childhood. Nobody then knew that she would be a psychopath, a sociopath. It was on ninth of December last year, when the red colours bloomed.

She and Kuhu were alone at home that day. The Mangeshkar Bhawan on Peddar Road was an unparalleled mansion. Intricate carvings on the walls of the house and traditional ebony and mahogany wood decorated the house. The flooring was done by an architect who was an Italian and the chandeliers were bought from Paris. They were the admirers of Mary Cassatt and praised her style of painting. They often praised her work in her painting ‘The Reader’. A copy of that was hung in their home but now the dust had found a suitable place.

Nobody knew how it happened but everyone condemned the incident. The worst thing was that no one wanted to know the reason. Everyone jumped to conclusions. Kanak had stabbed Kuhu 17 times in her room while Kuhu was reading ‘Vanity Fair’. She was an admirer of Thackeray’s style of writing. Kanak left Kuhu in her room and ran away from the house only to be caught by the police and kept behind the bars. Kanak as young girl was always told that she has to grow up, get married and look after her young ones. Kanak was deprived of the rights that men of her family usually got. The privileged ones.

4 months have passed since then and Kanak is in the Arthur Road Jail waiting for her next hearing on 27th May. I was going to meet this girl for whom the world is blind and the world who thinks she is blind.

The Next morning I woke up early. I wore my favourite shirt gifted to me by my mother during her last days. I was expecting for some surprises from Kanak because it was the first case of such a type that I was going to examine.

I took the road near to the Mahalaxmi railway station and finally reached the prison. The jailer asked me to be seated and offered me a cup of tea which tasted like turpentine oil but still I had it.

Few minutes passed by and I had finished having the turpentine oil. The jailer came to me walking with pride and amour-propre coruscated in his eyes. He asked one of the jailers then to take me to Kanak’s cell. The jailer reluctantly took me to her cell. This time the corridor journey was much more haunted than the last time at the court. You could see people sitting inside their cells with tranquility but the hands are coloured with blood…blood of the unforgettable times…times when they lifted the knives for the first time…

Then we stopped walking. We had reached Kanak’s cell. Long brilliant black hairs with an earring in the right ear, wearing a white sari with a strip of blue border, holding a glass from which drops of water dripped on the floor and nails which looked uncut for a long time. She had an oval face with sharp features and eyes where rage resided.

I went inside the cell and the jailer stood outside for my safety and protection.

“Good Morning, Kanak?” I wished her morning ebulliently.

“Are you again from the court? Why don’t you give me death sentence? I have killed Kuhu…I am a murderer!” She shouted and her rage coruscated in her sharp eyes as she glanced at me for the first time, “If you have come to tell me that I have done something wrong then let it be for I know whatever I’ve done is right! Get away now; I want to take a small nap.”

“Kanak, I am neither from the court nor a Judge to judge your actions. I have come to ask you the reason that made you murder your own sister whom you loved so much! Tell me Kanak…tell me…” I compelled her to answer me.

“Why should I answer you…eh…? Why?” She began to get rampageous. She came running to me, held my collar and said, “I loved her so I killed her. Women have no right to live in this world! Did anyone ask me why I killed her? Why? Why? Why?” She squalled at the top of her voice. She then moved back and tears ran down on her cheeks.

“But men are good. They...” Before I completed she interrupted me.

“Men are good? Eh…? Are you joking?” She cachinnated, “They are good? Really? Did you read some of the jokes from the book…Eh…?” She cachinnated again, “They are the nefarious roses and the women are the supple lilies and lilies always love to be the elegant roses for roses have dignity…do you know?

“Why” I asked her curiously and instantly.

“Why…Is that a question?” she giggled a bit, “Men are like the elegant roses which bloom in spring and die in the crisp winter, like the bracts of dandelion that soar away with the mild winds of monsoon. They are carried away with the aroma of the coins and the fragrance of the worldly opulence. They are like the ostentatious sunflowers which sway their heads with the mighty sun. They hide their thorns under their tender petals and when the supple lilies live with them they are crushed under the hidden thorns, they bleed, they cry, they die and are fed upon by the ruthless worms. Why wouldn’t then the lilies be the elegant roses?”

I was taken aback by her statement.

She cried, she laughed, she got rampageous at times and then I knew the reason after 26 days.

Discrimination affected the mind of the young girl and she learnt that she doesn’t have any opportunities here then why let her sister be tormented. To protect her dignity, she stabbed her. For her, feminism was dead…

They say, money cannot buy knowledge and aristocracy doesn’t come through rosewood.

I still remember my last moments with her. She was crying out to me and suddenly she heard the voices of the children playing on the ground. Summer break had begun and everyone was returning from the school. Portulacas had begun to grow. She kept her ears on the walls to hear those mesmerising voices and grinned. Tears fell from her eyes as she longed for freedom…freedom…freedom…from her life…

"This story was written byTrishit Banerjee, a student of Birla School, Kalyan as an initiative to aware the people of India about Female Infanticide. He also has a blog: www.trishitbanerjee2006.blogspot.com

Brad (talk) 17:09, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Interesting essay about ethics of infanticide

here.--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 22:02, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Completely biased part in modern times section

"Abortion techniques, such as dismemberment and suction, or saline poisoning and induced labor are now the number one method of infanticide in the Western World, performed on demand at "abortion clinics". The cells and tissues obtained are used to vampirically sustain the lives of cancerous geriatric humans. Infanticide by mothers has become less common in the Western world, with most women now letting the dirty work be done by well-paid abortionists, in anesthetized clinical procedures, with the actual killing unseen by them; though some do choose to witness their children's deaths at the hands of the abortionists. This practice can be mandatory in such places as China. Still, mothers such as Andrea Yates and Susan Smith do sometimes inexplicably decide to kill their cown[sic] children."

There is no way this should be part on an academic article in a unbiased encyclopedia.

83.109.218.24 (talk) 18:17, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

No, it wasn't remotely appropriate and I've removed it, as per WP:Vandalism, WP:NPOV, WP:Verifiability, and a slew of others. Snow (talk) 04:44, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Judeo-Christian sections still white-washed

“There is one debated example of child killing in Old Testament,” reads the current version of this article. No. There are many more examples. God himself is said to have sent bears to kill children who were pestering his prophet: Elisha and the Two Bears (2 Kings 2:23-25).

The New Testament also claims Herod to have ordered the killing of all newborn babies under a certain age. (This is not recorded in or an accepted part of history, but it does appear in the Bible.)

It is really disappointing to see such a deceptively omissive account of infanticide in the Bible here on Wikipedia, where facts are supposed to be presented in a neutral POV.

--X883 (talk) 17:56, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

And what about Hosea 13? That has god stating that the punishment for turning away from him would be the dashing of suckling infants' heads on rocks, and the disembowelment of pregnant women. That is not exactly ambiguous. 137.111.13.167 (talk) 01:59, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

North Korea Section

The section regarding North Korea was in the history section. I moved it to the modern section. Mvblair (talk) 18:40, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Are you aware Africa is a huuuge continent with many many cultures

Im very annoyed Africa has only one section unlike the other continents — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.118.60.18 (talk) 12:08, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

Are you aware that Wikipedia is an open encyclopedia that anyone, yourself included, can edit provided they have a few good sources? Are you further aware that almost every contributor is a volunteer with limited time resources? Are you aware that the first instinct of most editors/users upon seeing a glaring omission concerning an important matter is to try to fix it but that a small minority instead decides to whinge about the shortcoming as if they are owed better from this completely free, exhaustively maintained resource? Are you aware that such huuugely self-entitled people should dig in, be polite about their request for new content or just be quiet while the people who are here working get to it -- or else be prepared to be ridiculed? :) Snow (talk) 04:47, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

Arabia/Islam

Is there any particular reason why there are separate sections discussing Christian theology/church policy and actual medieval European practice, whereas the section on Arabia simply quotes the Qur'an as if the book miraculously ended all infanticide wherever it went? Maitreya (talk) 13:54, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

Australia

I have expanded the 'Australia' section, but it's messy and without direction. I could do with some help because I don't know how best to organise this.Clare. (talk) 08:18, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Also I would quite like to add Peter Singer's views on this issue. Do you think the 'Australia' section is a good place to do this? Peter Singer is an Australian moral philospher who currently lives in the United States. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Clare. (talk • contribs) 08:21, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Roman infanticide

From the article:

"The Twelve Tables of Roman law obliged him to put to death a child that was visibly deformed. The concurrent practices of slavery and infanticide contributed to the "background noise" of the crises during the Republic.[33]"

Couple of thoughts:

It seems like a little more caution might be called for in the claims being made. The correlation between the 12 tables and actual normative practice during periods with good historical records is problematic. This is especially so for the late republic/early principate period which is the implicit focus of this section, some four and a half centuries after the compilation of the tables and well after their loss. If memory serves we get the bit about infanticide from Cicero, who's also on record as saying that he learned the tables as part of his education, but that this practice was no longer maintained. Is this evidence of infanticide at the time from which the evidence dates; evidence of infanticide at a former time; or evidence of the Roman predilection for retrojecting debates about current social issues onto discussions about their ancestors' practices? Obviously this is not one to sort out as such on the pages of Wikipedia but it seems like a caveat might be called for.
What does 'the concurrent practices of slavery and infanticide contributed to the "background noise" of the crises...' actually mean? I don't have access to the Crossan book this appears to be a paraphrase of - the meaning is unclear from what is written here. Is this an assertion that infanticide was in some way contributory to an environment of social instability during the late republic? Is this really germane to the discussion, or is it just a throw-in?
How good a source do people think Crossan is for this discussion, given that his scholarly focus is on the historical Jesus? Are his views on the prevalence and significance of infanticide shared by other scholars of the classical period? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.187.247.228 (talk) 03:53, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

South Africa

Between Johannesburg and Soweto (South Africa’s largest township) 200 babies a month are left for dead. Only 60 of those are found alive and taken to a place of safety. Babies are thrown into the street, the garbage, the river, sewers, and toilets, dropped from buildings and left in fields. In South Africa there is no Infanticide Act. The Children’s Act does not protect the lives of children. Therefore infanticide is rife and increasing rapidly due to overpopulation, poverty, teenage pregnancy and the alarming rape statistic in South Africa. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.193.54.250 (talk) 11:26, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 2 external links on Infanticide. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers. —^{cyberbot II}_{Talk to my owner:Online} 10:49, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Infanticide. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070226032823/http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/news/27-12142004-416868.html to http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/news/27-12142004-416868.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 17:33, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on Infanticide. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 19:30, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

Incorrect or Questionable Source

"Comparative anthropologists have calculated that 50% of female newborn babies were killed by their parents during the Paleolithic era.[9]" The source for this references an article detailing infanticide rates in England and America from ~1550AD to ~1800AD (Murdering Mothers: Infanticide in England and America, 1558-1803) and seems to extrapolate based on this data to paleolithic infanticide rates. Ideally, this stat (50% rate of infanticide of females in paleolithic societies) would reference a more direct assessment of paleolithic peoples, rather than extrapolated data. Please either update the reference or modify this article.

137.150.101.225 (talk) 17:46, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

Infanticide of the Massey boy

I am of the opinion that the infanticide mentioned in the discussion of Perotine Massey in the Guernsey Martyrs should be included on this page. Page 91 of this scholarly journal: http://quidditas.humwp.byu.edu/files/2018/12/20.pdf notes that it was part of a disregard shown towards the rule of "don't execute a pregnant woman" during the Counter-Reformation in Britain. Due in part to a pattern of disregarding this rule, a baby was born during the mother's execution. The baby was rescued, but priests who were present said that the baby should die because it has the stain of sin from its mother, and the judge orders him burned, too. Could possibly mention the uproar afterwards, and how after the next queen came into power the judge had to flee. So what is your opinion, should there be a brief inclusion of this in the United Kingdom or Middle Ages section, or not?--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 01:21, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

Foundations II 2019, Group 2A goals

Hello all, my group of 4 will be working on updating the "Modern Times" and "Prevention" sections. Our goals are as follows:

Expand on methods for prevention of infanticide specifically regarding diagnosis and treatment of postpartum disorders
Add subheadings to prevention section
Expand on subsections of "Modern Times" in terms of the punishment vs. prevention in the United States
Expand on Current Laws in the United States

Lyjanicee (talk) 20:54, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

(added formatting) Health policy (talk) 04:20, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

Group 2C peer review for Group 2A

Q1. The edits made to this article do contribute to the learning for the individual reading the article. It expands on the state and federal legislation in the "United States" heading as well as consequences related to infanticide. The article also expands on the "Prevention" section where it lists psychiatric interventions along with journal references.
Q2. The goals listed by the group were met and I was able to refer back to their contribution to the article. Each goal listed had a minor or major contribution from citations to new studies from citable sources.
Q3. The group's edits do not seem to be biased or from their perspectives. It is clear that the group wanted to achieve their goals in improving the article without providing their point of view. The contributions were made relevant to the studies found and cited. Blu65 (talk) 21:47, 5 August 2019 (UTC)
Q4. The sources listed are verifiable and have one or more citations to back up the stated idea. As an example, the new section called "Psychiatric Intervention" has several reliable sources that link directly to the study. Crystalnguyentan (talk) 16:38, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
Q5. The format for the edits is consistent with Wikipedia's manual of style. Rgonzalezrios (talk) 21:50, 5 August 2019 (UTC)
Q6. There is no evidence that the edits were plagiarized or any copyright violations and all the sources provided are easily accessible reliable sources.Yalda22 (talk) 16:27, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

"Post birth abortion" listed at Redirects for discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Post birth abortion. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 March 17#Post birth abortion until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. ★Trekker (talk) 20:49, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

Plutarch

Is Plutarch a reliable source to talk with certainty about infanticide in Spartan society? Knowing that he lived several centuries later? Morgengave (talk) 10:15, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

Plutarch relied on Greek documents that were not preserved. Historians quote him a lot for that reason. However it's best to use modern scholarship: here is the abstract of a very useful article -- I can send a full ecopy if you write rjensen@uic.edu :"Mother and child in the Greek world" by Robert Garland, History Today, March 1986, Vol. 36, p40-46 Abstract: In ancient Greek society, male dominance extended even to childbirth....infanticide, particularly of female newborns, was widely practiced. The father decided whether a child would be allowed to survive until Amphidromia, the tenth-day ceremony, to receive a place in the family." [end of abstract] Rjensen (talk) 21:41, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

Additional scholarly sources: (1) Engels, Donald. "The problem of female infanticide in the Greco-Roman world." Classical Philology 75.2 (1980): 112-120. online. (2) "The historical dimensions of infanticide and abortion: the experience of classical Greece" By: Feen, Richard Harrow. in The Linacre Quarterly, vol 51 Aug 1984, pp 248-254. (3) Ingalls, Wayne. "Demography and dowries: Perspectives on female infanticide in classical Greece." Phoenix (2002): 246-254. online; (4) Patterson, Cynthia. "" Not Worth the Rearing": The Causes of Infant Exposure in Ancient Greece." Transactions of the American Philological Association 115 (1985): 103-123 online. (5) Pomeroy, Sarah B. chapter on "Infanticide in Hellenistic Greece" in the edited book Images of women in antiquity (Wayne State Univ Pr, 1983), pp 207-222. Rjensen (talk) 22:14, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

Legal status

I've attempted to clarify the questioned statement about legal status in the lead para, primarily by using information from the body of the text. While I can locate no evidence that infanticide is legally condoned by any modern state, the concept of legality is itself flexible. The most likely state sponsor of infanticide is DPR Korea, as referenced in the text, so it's arguably 'legal' there. It has been officially tolerated in PR China in recent times, and likely also in Democratic Kampuchea, though I can't quote a reference. I also note that it is apparently tolerated as a cultural practice among some tribal peoples, even if it is technically illegal in the states that claim jurisdiction over them (see ref to Oceania in the body). Whether that can be viewed as 'legal' on the basis of non-enforcement is a primarily philosophical issue.

I bear in mind that the lead is a summary, and that users should expect to read deeper into the article for a fuller treatment. I'm happy for other editors to correct or amplify the statements, in the lead or in the section on modern infanticide, particularly with reference to the article's copious bibliography. Chrismorey (talk) 10:41, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 1 July 2019 and 23 August 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Lyjanicee, Huyha63, Sharonluong, Laurafansun. Peer reviewers: Blu65.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 00:29, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

What about Waʾd al-banāt?

The literature mentions a form of ritual infanticide present in the pre-Islamic Arabian Peninsula, of which the Qur'an speaks several times: if I read it correctly, Mohammed meets ʿĀṣim al-Minqarī, called Sayyid Ahl al-wabar, who has to sacrifice his daughter but cries because she is old enough to speak and begs him not to do so. This fiche only mentions the case of Egypt but says nothing about the Arabian peninsula. Would anyone have more detailed information? If not, I would like to create a dedicated fiche. --S.vecchiato (talk) 04:49, 22 February 2022 (UTC)