Talk:Indianapolis/Archive 1

This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

1

The article could be improved by reorganizing some of the sections, adding better transitions, and perhaps moving some information to separate articles. That being said, I do not think the article is necessarily too lengthy; it just needs better editing. Several other city articles covering cities of similar size and importance as Indianapolis are just as long, and some are even longer.

I don't think the list of neighborhoods is silly, but I would pare it down to remove some of the more obscure neighborhoods.

The sections on crime and law enforcement could be combined and greatly scaled down.

I don't see a problem with covering some of the details of Unigov in the main city article, especially since it has had such a major impact on the history and development of the city; the main article should at least provide an overview and mention current efforts to expand Unigov. The specific Unigov article can provide a detailed examination of the city-county consolidation.

I agree the Klan section could be scaled down and there could be links to the other articles which cover the history of the Klan in Indiana.

Indiana Avenue and the African-American community which thrived along it made up an integral part of the city's cultural and social history. I think Indiana Avenue and its related jazz and blues musical heritage should be mentioned in the main city article and then a separate article could cover the topic in greater detail.

Finally, I don't see a problem with the history section of the main article as it simply provides an overview of the growth and development of the city. I do agree there should at least be a brief reference to Eli Lilly & Co and the major impact the company, the Lilly family, and the Lilly Endowment have had on the growth and development of the city and state (and the nation and the rest of the world to a certain extent). As for Stephen Hilbert, while he and his wife TomiSue are certainly colorful individuals, they most certainly do NOT deserve to be mentioned in a scholarly overview of the history of Indianapolis. --Kangaroo1 18:14, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Good ideas. Also, should there be a separate section on the history of Indianapolis? Some of the information in the articles could be described in further detail using a separate article.Wikichange 20:33, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

2

The list of neighborhoods is just silly. I never heard of half of them when I was living in Indy.

First of all, the list of neighborhoods is vital in that it provides details about Indianapolis and how the neighborhoods add to Indianapolis's urban character. And second, not only do I know of every neighborhood on that list, I have been to them all. Just because you have not heard of those neighborhoods does not mean that they dont exist. What an arbitrary thing to say. Wikichange 19:52, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

The whole Klan thing could be summed up in one or two sentences, with links to the KKK, DC Stephenson, and Madge Oberholtzer articles, possibly expanding those if there's unique information here.

Same with the Unigov section. There's already a Unigov article - why isn't all that stuff there?

The section on Indiana Avenue should be extracted into a separate article and possibly expanded. The Slippery Noodle should probably be mentioned.

There's way too much history in this article, and the history that's here seems arbitrarily chosen. For example, there's not a mention of James Whitcomb Riley in the entire article (not even the Children's Hospital), and the only references to Eli Lilly are in the context of the museum and the company. Also, any discussion of the recent history of Indianapolis really isn't complete without a discussion of Stephen Hilbert and Conseco.

Well, living in Fountain Square until a couple years ago, I know exactly where every single one of the neighborhoods that are listed in this article are. Maybe you should go outside sometime and stop making articles about how computers used to be expensive and were really slow (OMG BILL GATES SAID 640kb OF MEMORY IS ENOUGH FOR ANYBODY LOLZORZ, HE WAS SO WRONG, I HAVE 2GB AND IT STILL HASN'T MADE ME COOL). Triikan 17:09, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

If you have never heard of those neighborhoods, you obviously either stayed inside too much or you know of nobody who stays in the real Indianapolis and not the suburbs, there are names for just about every neighborhood in Indianapolis, just because you haven't heard it mentioned on the news or something doesnt mean its not there

3

Are there any ideas as to how the Indianapolis page should be scaled down?134.68.176.190 21:58, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

4

I wonder if the Indy images could be moved to WikiCommons so that we can use them in some of the foreign-language articles?--69.245.192.52 02:48, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

5

Sorry, that was me (forgot to log in). --69.245.192.52 02:50, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

6

The previous edit seemed to imply that the "golden era" (1890-1920) of Indianapolis was due to the absence of the Klan. More likely, it was due to the prosperous situation caused by the employment surge led by the discovery of the large natural gas deposit in the 1890s. The natural gas was squandered by 1915, and I'm sure this is a bigger factor in the end of the "golden age" than the rise of the Klan. I shouldn't have to mention the following as a disclaimer, but I know somebody has already been offended: I do not condone the Klan. I am not being racist and I am not trying to downplay the atrocities committed by the Klan. But I'm pretty sure that the "golden age" had less to do with the absence of the Klan than the availability of free energy did. For more information on the natural gas deposit, see http://www.centerforhistory.org/indiana_history_main9.html or google for "indiana history natural gas". --Shamashmuddamiq

Merge Fountain Square?

There is a proposal to merge the Cincy part of the article Fountain Square with this one. I disagree and have described my reasons on its discussion page. --Tysto 13:06, 2005 August 4 (UTC)

Picture

Couldn't we get a real picture of the skyline as the intro picture? To be honest, it's pretty sad that we have an article on a city in which many hundreds of thousands of people live, work, and visit everyday that has an artist's conception as the main picture. bob rulz 06:27, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Daylight Saving

I understand the move to daylight saving has been confirmed from April 2006. Can we now show the time zone during this period is UTC -4 hours? Auswide 9:59, 19 November 2005 (UTC) - Done, entered into article on 22 December 2005.

Nap Town

~MOVED TO NICKNAMES~

Klan Mayor

John Duvall

Sorry Hoosiers but this guy made things so my family had to leave Indianapolis.

Please vote in the population poll

In the article List of United States cities by population, Indianapolis's population is listed as 784,242 instead of 794,160. This is because the editors have decided to use the census balance figures rather than the actual city populations for consolidated city-counties. So despite it being billed as a "list of cities", it doesn't actually list Nashville or Indianapolis, but instead lists their "balances". If you have an opinion about this, please make it known in the poll. Thanks. Kaldari 19:14, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Too long?

The Indianapolis article seems overly long. I think a good area to trim down would be the 'Cultural Features' section. A mention of each cultural district/feature and maybe one sentence about each should be sufficient. The cultural district section should then be spun off into its own article and linked to this section.

Also, the cultural section is somewhat incorrect. The city has officially named 6 cultural districts -- Monument Circle and the War Memorial Plaza are not among them. While I think those sections are fine (perhaps expansion of the Monument Circle section), a distinction should be made between the "official districts" and the "interesting features".

Cultural Districts:

http://www.discoverculturaldistricts.com/alldistrictsmap.htm

I attempted to shorten the article by editing unnecessary information (here we go!) and creating a separate article for topics such as history, etc. Wikichange 09:37, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Indianapolis Prize

I'm not sure what would be the right place for this text, but the introduction is not it, so I am removing it. L. Pistachio 04:48, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

The Indianapolis Prize is the world's leading award for animal conservation. The Prize includes a $100,000 cash award and the Lilly Medal, which are presented every two years to a conservationist who has made substantial contributions toward the sustainability of an animal species or group of species. Selected by a globally-renowned nominating committee and jury, the finalists for the 2006 Indianapolis Prize include Dr. George Archibald (cranes); Dr. Holly Dublin (African elephants and other IUCN-listed species); Dr. Iain Douglas Hamilton (African elephants); Dr. David Meche (wolves); Dr. Roger Payne (whales and other cetaceans); and Dr. Simon Stuart (amphibeans). Award-winning actress Jane Alexander is the host of the 2006 Indianapolis Prize Gala. Honorary Chairs include Harrison Ford, Ted Turner, Roger Sant, Senator Richard Lugar, and Senator Evan Bayh.

Weather?

I had made some minor edits regarding the section on the weather of Indianapolis, but even with the links to cited sources, someone obviously had intentions of starting a revert war in mind... Wikichange 01:18, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok, never mind. I made the necessary changes! Wikichange 04:58, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Revising entry on Indianapolis

This entry does not necessarily need to be reduced in scope. It just needs to be better organized. For example, the space devoted to the merger of the Sheriff's Department and the Indianapolis Police Department is really just a continuation of the decades-old discussion of UniGov. UniGov is, for good or ill, an enormously important development in the life of both the city and the State of Indiana and deserves extensive discussion. The merger, however, can just be appended to the section on UniGov.

The sections on the various neighborhoods also add value to the entry. The life of any city is in its neighborhoods and the more historic and colorful areas of the city should be noted.

Create Indianapolis Cultural Districts as a seperate article

I recommend we create, as a seperate entry, the Indianapolis Cultural Districts and maintain a small blurb refering to them and directing visitors to that entry. Each one is worth of its own entry anyway. Jgassens 19:27, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

AfD Nomination: Park Lafayette

An article that you have been involved in editing, Park Lafayette, has been listed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Park Lafayette. Please look there to see why this is, if you are interested in it not being deleted. Thank you.

--TruthbringerToronto (Talk | contribs) 02:40, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Neighborhoods of Indianapolis

I created this article with the intent of adding insight about many of Indianapolis's more fascinating neighborhoods, so that readers will have a better understanding on what life here is like in some areas. With the exception of the Cultural District stubs, there were virtually NO articles about some of Indy's neighborhoods. In my opinion, this article should NOT be merged for three reasons:

the Indianapolis article is overly long as it is,
there are a sufficient amount of neighborhoods that have yet to be added, and
a few of the neighborhoods have enough detail to make for moderate-sized entries on Wikipedia.

Granted, Indianapolis's neighborhoods aren't nearly as noteworthy as those in Chicago or San Francisco, but I still think that a separate article has its benefits. Wikichange 05:06, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree; the fact that some local residents are unfamiliar with some of them isn't surprising for a city of this size - 360 square miles (about the size of NYC plus Yonkers, Newark and Jersey City; or about the same as NYC and Washington, D.C. combined). I'm sure some residents of Brooklyn, Newark and the Bronx don't know all the local neighborhoods in that whole area, either. A city with a population of 800,000 should generally have an article identifying/discussing its neighborhoods. MisfitToys 00:39, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Survey on proposal to make U.S. city naming guidelines consistent with others countries

There is a survey in progress at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (settlements) to determine if there is consensus on a proposed change to the U.S. city naming conventions to be consistent with other countries, in particular Canada.

This proposal would allow for this article to be located at Indianapolis instead of Indianapolis, Indiana, bringing articles for American cities into line with articles for cities such as Paris and Toronto.--DaveOinSF 16:55, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I would support it, because it makes finding articles a lot easier. Besides, it's less typing! Wikichange 18:08, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

However the proposal would allow U.S. cities to be inconsistent with the vast majority of other U.S. cities and towns, which (with a few exceptions) all use the "city, state" convention. -Will Beback 23:41, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Murat Centre

If anyone can find a _good_ website about the Murat Centre, please link to it under Culture and Recreation. Thanks. Notreallydavid 03:38, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Indianapolis, Missouri?

why does it say Indianapolis, Missouri above its picture? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 4.225.23.247 (talk) 07:38, 8 December 2006 (UTC).

Indianapolis Nicknames

~MOVED TO NICKNAMES~

WRONG.

For the past decade, crime rates within Indianapolis city limits have fluctuated greatly. In the late 1990s, violent crimes in inner-city neighborhoods located within the old city limits (pre-consolidation) peaked. The IPD police district, which serves about 37% of the county's total population and has a geographic area covering mostly the old pre-consolidation city limits, recorded 130 homicides in the year 1998 to average approximately 40.3 homicides per 100,000 people.[citation needed] This is over 6 times the 1998 national homicide average of 6.3 per 100,000 people.[citation needed] Meanwhile, Marion County Sheriff's police district serving the remaining 63% of the county's population, which includes the majority of the residents in the Consolidated City, recorded only 32 homicides in 1998, averaging about 5.9 murders per 100,000 people, slightly less than the 1998 national homicide average. [citation needed] Homicides in the IPD police district dropped dramatically in 1999 and have remained lower through 2005. In 2005, the IPD police district recorded 88 homicides to average 27.3 homicides per 100,000 people; none the less, the murder rate in the IPD district is still almost 5 times the 2005 national average. [citation needed]

INDPLS - 108 murders in 2005 average of 13.8.

GET IT RIGHT KTHX. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.21.214.162 (talk) 04:20, 7 January 2007 (UTC).

Sorry, you are wrong. In the IPD district there were 88 murders; you can check the 2005 Homicide Report issued by IPD at www.indygov.org. The rest of the murders in Marion County in 2005 happened in the Sheriff's district. So, the Crime section is correct because it is only talking about the IPD district when it mentions 88 murders. Kangaroo1 23:22, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

What's the point of dividing the city's crime into two different parts, but not having one on the city overall?.. and on top of that the information isn't cited.

If you read the Crime section, you see that the section is comparing the homicide rate between the inner-city IPD district and the neighborhoods in what were (before January 2007) in the Marion County Sheriff's district. The section was making the point that while the overall homicide rate in Indianapolis was not very high if you looked at the whole county, it was rather high if you look just at the inner-city neighborhoods covered by IPD. Yes, now IPD and the Sheriff have merged as of January 1, 2007. Also, there is a trend of homicides spreading out of Center Township--mainly to the troubled neighborhoods of the Far Eastside; however, most homicides in 2006 still occurred in Center Township.

In any event, as to the lack of citations, it is an issue. However, someone just needs to take the time to add the citations. I didn't write the initial article, so I cannot say why there were no citations included. Kangaroo1 03:47, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Indianapolis Picture

Is there a better picture that can be used here? The main picture does not show much of the skyline and even looks a little crooked, plus it is half covered in trees. Am I the only one that doesn't like it? user: kcflood 15:06, 19 January 2007

The picture needs to be in the public domain (i.e. not subject to copyright protection). If it is hard to find a good picture in the public domain off the Web, then a local user could simply take a good skyline picture and permit it to be posted on site.

Kangaroo1 21:24, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

??...

Why isn't there an economy section about Indianapolis? 75.22.1.57 02:43, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Indy redirect

When someone types in "Indianapolis" into the search field it NO longer redirects to this page. Someone created a new Indianapolis article and this is where the search for "Indianapolis" redirects. The new Indianapolis article carried over the contents of this article at the date the new page was created; however, new updates to this article are NOT reflected in the new article.

Does anyone know why a new Indianapolis article was created? Kangaroo1 04:10, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

This was vandalism to the redirect (unfortunately, some two days old). It is fixed now. Cmprince 04:57, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Nope its back up...159.218.115.182 01:19, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Sorting out the EL section

The External Links section in this article has grown way beyond where it should be, in my opinion. It seems like we have forgotten that WP is not a Directory. I am going to try to be bold and also a little drastic, taking a leaf out of what the External Links policy says - if the article isn't about Indy, it is gone. So businesses, newspapers, and the like will be deleted. I will leave only the official government sites and a link to the ODP (which is a directory that is acceptable to link to, as per WP:EL. The clean-up tag has been there for several months, now, so I suggest we start afresh and only allow links in that are really about Indy as a whole, and not some aspect of it. If something is notable enough, then it should be mentioned in the article itself, with the appropriate EL, if necessary.

So before I go ahead and take this bold move - does anyone have any strenuous objection (aside from "but I think my site should stay"...) -- Alucard (Dr.) | Talk 16:09, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Please go ahead. I've been watching this article for quite a while now, as it's a target of frequent vandalism, and the EL section is indeed way past acceptable length and choice of links. Fvasconcellos 16:14, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

OK I have gone ahead and done it. I left the Government sites (since those are truly official) and the Chamber of Commerce. I left the Wikipedia Sister sites (including Wikitravel) and added the DMOZ link, as per WP:EL. I thought about waiting longer, but realised that we can always revert if this is a huge mistake. I will add a note about discussing on the Talk page about adding new ELs -- Alucard (Dr.) | Talk 13:48, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

In English Please

- "According to the United States Census Bureau, "the balance" (that part of Marion County not part of another municipality) has a total area of 368.2 square miles (953.5 km²)—361.5 square miles (936.2 km²) of it is land and 6.7 square miles (17.3 km²) of it is water. The total area is 1.81% water. These figures are slightly misleading because they do not represent the entire Consolidated City of Indianapolis (all of Marion County, except the four "excluded" communities). The total area of the Consolidated City of Indianapolis, which does not count the four "excluded" communities, covers approximately 373.1 square miles (966.3 km²)." - - Does this make sense to anyone? If so, would you kindly rephrase it? 159.218.115.182

Sorry, I accidentally deleted your remarks above in trying to remove the quotation you inexplicably stuck in some earlier comments of mine. In any event, to respond to your comments: The passage you cite is written in English, and although it may benefit from a slight revision to make the language clearer, I understand what the writer was trying to communicate.

His/her point is that the U.S. Census Bureau has created an artificial area called "Indianapolis, Balance." This census area is NOT a legal municipality, nor a commonly designated area (such as a place locals would refer to);instead, "Indianapolis, Balance" is a population measurement that only exists for Census purposes. The measured area covers all of Marion County, EXCEPT it does NOT cover the so-called "included towns" (such as Williams Creek, Meridian Hills, etc.) which are legally part of the City of Indianapolis (since the passage of Unigov), nor does it include the four "excluded" municipalities (for Unigov purposes) which are Lawrence, Speedway, Southport, and Beech Grove. I understand not counting the "excluded" municipalities when measuring the population of Indianapolis, as these communities are actually separate cities/towns; however, the "included towns," such as Williams Creek, Meridian Hills, etc are legally part of Indianapolis now and have no separate legislative or police authority (some of these communities, much like private subdivisions, do contract with the IMPD department to pay for extra deputy patrols; however this activity and the rest of their actions are more akin to a neighborhood association than a true municipality--these communities CANNOT pass any laws separate from Indianapolis). Also, the U.S. Census causes further confusion by also counting and publishing population statistics on the the full Consolidated City of Indianapolis which DOES include the so-called "included" towns (Williams Creek, Meridian Hills, etc--but does not count the "excluded" municipalities). I have no idea why anyone wants to have more than one detailed breakdown of the the city's population, but the Census apparently thinks some people are interested, hence, it has two different methods of measuring the population of Indianapolis. In truth, the whole topic is rather esoteric, but these are the details nonetheless.

Regardless of what the Census does with measuring population, the official legal municipality is the Consolidated City of Indianapolis, and there should be one measurement and that should be the end of it--there is no such place called "Indianapolis, Balance," and the Census should stop publishing measurements of this made-up area. I am sure it is probably more than you wanted to know, but this is what the section you cite is trying to explain. Kangaroo1 05:14, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm sure if there were quotation marks added on another page, I had a reason for it.-- If it was an insertion on this page, that was an error. - -Thank you for clearing that up. Would it be possible for someone who completely understands this topic to rewrite, or expand, this part of the article?- - Perhaps we can just remove the extra Census info and create a link to the Census page, instead of the extra clarification. Something like, "for more information, see the U.S. Census Bureau,"? 159.218.115.182 08:16, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Advertising?

Starting a new section for comments on additions, or materials, which appear to have a fiscal impetus.

For instance, inserting "Wishard Health Services or (Wishard Memorial Hospital), one of Indianapolis' oldest hospitals (145 years), serves as the community hospital for the city of Indianapolis. Wishard is the home of residency for IU Medical students. (http://www.wishard.edu/about-us.html)" in the EDUCATION section, seems to be a bit out of place. Perhaps this would be better served in the Indiana University School of Medicine article. Deleting 159.218.115.182 12:46, 25 April 2007 (UTC) Alternatively, Perhaps a Medical section on hospitals in, and/or major breakthroughs out of, Indianapolis would be useful. Simply a discussion point right now.159.218.115.182 12:49, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

--Considering all the real advertising inserted in the form of links to real estate brokers, I don't get your hang up over Wishard Hospital. It is a public hospital funded by property taxes paid by the residents of Indianapolis and federal and state funds. The hospital is NOT a private hospital, so your comments about there being some "fiscal impetus" behind the material are a bit off to say the least. At some point if you try to strip an article of any real, or as in this case, perceived "slant," "bias" or "motive," you end up with nothing to say. I would rather editors would concentrate on adding citations and correcting grammar than silliness like this. Kangaroo1 01:53, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Nicknames

The nickname list is getting out of hand. The only references to the city I've ever seen used are "Indy," and rarely "Circle City" (whose nomenclature I never figured out). Maybe "Nap Town" is real, given the discussion above, but having never heard it my entire life in Indiana, I can't see how relevant it is. "Indianoplace" certainly isn't relevant. How rare is it? Google thought I meant "india polo" when I searched for it. Cmprince 21:36, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

~PREVIOUSLY IN "NAP TOWN"~

I've lived in Indy all my life and I've never heard the phrase. Don't remove it I guess, just kind of strange that this wiki will make it more popular.

I didn't live in the city, but growing up in Indiana I never heard this phrase either. Cmprince 21:32, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

As do I, and I've never heard it before. Seems somewhat derogatory, so more discussion on it might be needed. 152.228.228.41 03:39, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

I live in Indy and have heard the term before. "Nap town" was popularized by late 90's party club advertisements (refering to their clubs as "Nap town's finest") and announcers on the radio station WTLC and early 96.3 broadcast. The term is most commonly used among youths as a shortened "cool and hip" way of reffering to IndiaNAPolis, similar to people refering to Chicago as "Chi Town" or Atlanta as "ATL." It is by no means a derogatory phrase, and more of a "Hip-hop" fad. Amdsupport 05:59, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I heard it plenty of times growing up there in the 1970s and 1980s, most often in a dismissive way by people from larger cities. Veronique 06:08, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm willing to bet that the people in larger cities (or any other cities for that matter) are indifferent to the term because its use within certain groups (mainly youths); the term is not nearly as popular as "Hoosier" or "Indy" and I'd be hesitant myself to use the term in anything above informal conversation. Amdsupport 07:15, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Growing up here I have heard the term often. There are some people who obviously have never heard of the term, though. Wikichange 04:52, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

In fact, the people who never heard of it are often the first ones to question its existence. Not a big deal, but it is frustrating! Wikichange 04:52, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

These days it isn't derogatory at all. It is starting to become a heavily used term, though. Just another way of abbreviating Indianapolis. Daniel 06:02, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

the term was often used in the past to describe the city in a derogatory manner -- ie: it was a boring sleepy town with no nightlife. after the colts were brought to the city and circle centre mall was built the term wasn't used nearly as much. during the late eighties and early nineties the term was most often used in media reports about the progress of the city and how it was shedding it's "naptown" reputation. Randella 02:03, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Google's "nap town" listing shows MANY, MANY references to Indy. Growing up in Fort Wayne in the 1970s/1980s and going to Ball State in the 1980s and 1990s, I heard "Naptown" many times - usually from people from Central Indiana. Davodd 06:28, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Living in Chicago previously, I heard Indianapolis referenced as Naptown many times and also have hear residents here in Indianapolis, to where I have relocated, using this term. It is not seen as derogatory nor racially motivated. I would recommend including it as a nickname for the city. Note that the local paper, the Indianapolis Star, has printed Naptown in reference to local organizations (http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2007701020378) and also that the local yellow pages list many businesses self-named with the term; and the Indiana History Society ran an exhibit in 2005 titled "the naptown sound" chronicling the historical musicial scene in Indianapolis. Ejl 22:54, 05 January 2007

The Indianapolis Star article you cite makes a brief reference to the Naptown Riders Motorcycle Club and a gang-related shooting (the "Naptown Riders" are referenced in a somewhat obscure local hip-hop song about tough local street thugs, and the their headquarters have been investigated by the police before); so I do not think the Indianapolis Star is using the name as a nickname for the City of Indianapolis. The exhibit at the Indiana Historical Society is highlighting the local Jazz music originally called "Naptown;" however that does not mean the nickname is commonly used anymore--the exhibit is just referencing an old style of local Jazz music. I do think the "Naptown" name has a nice history from the early 1920's and the Jazz Era when the name was created to refer to the city's unique style of Jazz music created by the local African-American music community. However, the term later came to be used derogatorily to suggest the city was boring and "sleepy." The name pretty much disappeared by the end of the 1970's, until it was resurrected by various magazines and newspapers writing about the city's revitalization during the 1980's and 1990's, and then it was referred to as an old city nickname along with "Indiana-no-place" which the city had outgrown by shedding its "sleepy" image. Now, there has been some limited revival of the name among the local hip-hop community (as mentioned above) and other parts of the local music community. However, it is really not a common nickname, like "ChiTown" or the "Windy City" for Chicago, or "The Big Apple" for New York. "Naptown" would still be considered a fairly obscure name for the city by most residents--and outsiders (especially those outside of Indiana) would generally have no clue as to which city the name referred. Kangaroo1 00:04, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

I have heard "naptown" quite often will growing up in Indianapolis. It refers to both 1} how boring Indianapolis is (or used to be) and simply because 'nap' is in the word IndiaNAPolis user:kcflood 4:00, 15, January 2007

~PREVIOUSLY IN "INDIANAPOLIS NICKNAMES"~

Ok for starters if you've lived in Indiana and haven't heard Nap Town then you've had a very sheltered life. I propose we add these nicknames as well Nap, Crooked I and Nappy Dub. I've hear these nicknames used fairly often through my life living in Nap and not to mention in the song "Nap Town Riders" by Prophit the phrase Crooked I ridas becomes even more apparent. Just my 2 cents. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 4.225.23.247 (talk) 07:46, 8 December 2006 (UTC).

Indy, Naptown, Indiacrapolis, and Indianoplace. Indy is the only nickname for Indianapolis I know of that doesn't have a negative connotation, so I would go with that alone. In my life I have heard "Naptown" from a few locals I knew in college. I thought it was derogatory given the way they would talk about the city and I suppose the city's reputaion as a boring or backwards city(I'm not trying to confirm the validity of that statement, it's just a common perception if there is really one at all outside of central indiana). Other terms I have heard, perhaps more commonly than Naptown are Indiacrapolis and Indianoplace. These are certainly derogatory and I assume not used in Indy itself.

ok you sound like someone who's never lived in indiana and opinons are your own biast opinions of Nap, I have never heard Indiacrapolis or Indianoplace ever. Keep your biast fables elsewhere. hehe Who da best ridas? Them crooked I ridas, Naptown ridas.

Most people say and write the full name of Indianapolis. However, the most common nickname is simply "Indy." The "Circle City" is a less common nickname, but still one of the oldest nicknames as it refers to The Circle at the heart of city which was built as part of the original city plans designed by Alexander Ralston in 1821. Today, there are still many events and organizations in Indianapolis which use the name "Circle City." In 1853, Indianapolis became the first city in the nation, and perhaps in the world, to open a union railroad depot for all the major rail lines entering the city. By the 1880's, Indianapolis was a major railway hub, and it became known as the "Crossroads of America," later the State of Indiana made this the official state motto in 1937. The name "Naptown" came about in the early 1920's from the local African-American Jazz community in Indianapolis who used it to refer to their style of locally bred music and to the place they called home. The name later caught on with the larger community, and eventually many people forgot the Jazz origins of the name, and most people came to think it simply referred to the sleepy image of the city. More recently, there has been some resurgence of the popularity of the name by the local hip-hop and larger local music community; however, NO ONE would actually say they were from "Naptown" or they had just visited "Naptown," and I would hardly call it a popular nickname in the mainstream community, even if many people may have heard of the name through the media. The name "Indiana-No-Place" came into usuage sometime in the 1950's and was used into the 1970's, and it referred to the sleepy image of the city during that decade. Later, newspaper articles reporting on the revitalization of the city in the 1980's and 1990's would often dig up the old names "Indiana-No-Place" and "Naptown" to cite how the city had managed to shake off its sleepy image. However, few people ever actually referred to the city has "Indiana-No-Place" by the 1980's, and as mentioned, no was going around calling it "Naptown," either. In short, the only truly common nickname is "Indy," and to a lesser-extent, one still hears "Circle City," or derivations of it, such as the "Circle Centre Mall" downtown. "Naptown" and "Indiana-no-place" are really never used in everyday conversation or writing about the city, although one may still read these names from time-to-time in a newspaper or magazine article talking about how the city shook off its sleepy image of decades ago. And again, while some members of the local music community have revived the "Naptown" name to refer to their style of music, it has never caught on widely to refer to the city in general conversation or writing. So, I would just put this whole nickname debate to bed and stick with "Indy" and "Circle City" only. Kangaroo1 21:21, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

I compliment you on your knowledge of Indianapolis nicknames, however naptown is used very commonly in Indianapolis. It is not used just in the media, I know many people that simply say nap instead of saying all six syllables Indianapolis, myself included. I live here dude, I'm here everyday, you are not correct. Not a day goes by that I dont hear someone say it.

Hi, unsigned. I am not trying to start an argument, but I have to disagree.

I was born and grew up in Indianapolis and I lived there for 23 years. My family and many of my friends still live in Indianapolis and I go back to visit Indianapolis at least 3-4 times a year. I have family and friends on the North side, the West side, the South side, and the East side--as well as in the surrounding metro counties. My dad teaches at an IPS high school and he hears the current slang among the teenagers all day long. I have only heard "Naptown" used as an old nickname for the city, and when it was used it was referenced as a nickname not used anymore. For example, you may see it referenced as an old nickname along with "Indiana-no-place" in articles talking about how the city has shed its "sleepy" image. You may also see the name used to talk about the old style of Jazz music created by the local African-American music community in the early 1920's. Beyond that, you would only find the name in a few obscure local hip-hop songs, etc. I know there has been some limited attempts by parts of the local hip-hop community and other members of the local music scene to revive the name, but it is just not very commonly used. A lot of people do say "Indy," both residents and visitors. For example, if I go to the airport to check in and I say "I'm flying to Indy," then everyone knows what I'm talking about. But, with "Naptown" most Indianapolis residents would find the name obscure, and most people oustide the city (especially those outside of Indiana) would not have any clue as to to what "Naptown" was.

As for the name, "Nap," I have never heard people say just "Nap." Even in the few obscure hip-hop songs using the old "Naptown" name, they still say "Naptown," (as in "Naptown riders")--they do not just "Nap." I have to say that "Nap" is really not a common nickname for the city at all. Now, maybe you and your friends like to say "Nap," and that's fine, but it does not make it a commmon nickname. I have nothing against nicknames, but I just don't see "Nap" catching on among a wide group of people. At least "Naptown" has some history from the Jazz era behind it, even though most people don't use it anymore, and when it is used in a magazine or news article it is generally used in a derogatory sense (although that was not the original intent behind the name). Also, I think "Nap" has the potential to be confusing because it could be a nickname for Annapolis, Minneapolis, Naperville, etc. Kangaroo1 23:40, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

As a 20something who grew up on Indy's N side, I have to say that the term Naptown was most certainly used among some of my friends and even by myself. It does tend to be used more in the HipHop culture. This alone however should have no relevance to whether it is listed, as the question is not "which peoples?", but instead, "what nicknames?" Another thing which might be useful to remember here is that the revolutions of today are the standards of tomorrow.

That having been said, I have found when I say Naptown to a young urban dweller (under 35) here in the "Great Lakes" region of the "Midwest" it is likely that I will be understood as saying Indianapolis. It has a good connotation (or at least the idea of nap referring to sleepy seems to have been lost) in this culture. However, on the other side of the coin, when speak to someone from the coasts or an older person (over 35) it is more likely than not that I must explain "Naptown." I find people often get some amusement and gain an impressed air when they understand that Indianapolis has a nickname beyond Indy. I believe it shows an independent and changing culture in the city, which IMO is a hallmark of interesting cities (true or not).

For sales purposes, anything that gets people thinking about Indianapolis in a good light is a good thing; but then that is not the point here right?

Since we are attempting to be factual, it is my opinion that Naptown should be included in the nickname category (as long as there is one...) since there is a segment of the population which would certainly recognize its usage, even if it is not bourgeois.

-Who called, or calls, indy "City of Siestas."???? Perhaps it is "Latino" culture? This has never been used in my presence nor have I ever seen it in print.

- HipHop Culture is not simply music Kangaroo. Just as "Punk-Rock" had political and social implications beyond the music, HipHop also has its own political and social conventions (or so I hear...)

- Nap is simply a shortened Nap-town. It is slang, but isn't that what nicknames are? Sorry Mr. Jagger, your song was nice, but what if you wrote it "Go ahead, bite the Big N. Y. C., dont mind the maggots" We are concerned that "Big Apple" might make people think you are speaking of a burg in Washington State... 159.218.115.182 07:54, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi Unsigned,

I don't know if you are the same person or not, but I thought your comments were well-thought out and interesting. I agree with you that the nickname list is based on the list editors' subjective judgments. (By the way, I am not one of the list editors). Also, I agree with you that any determination of what constitutes a "common" nickname is subject to cultural bias and open to interpretation. However, a nickname list by its nature deals with a "soft subject" which is generally not well-grounded in verifiable "fact."

I do think that the nickname list provides a bit of "local color" and adds interesting detail to the article. However, I wonder if it might simply be extraneous material to include in a scholarly overview of the city.

In any event, I still think that a list of common nicknames should probably be comprised of names for the city which are familiar to a majority of the city residents, and commonly used by a large number (if not a majority) of them. As for the nickname Naptown, yes I did read and hear the name on occasion while growing up, but my experience was that it was generally referenced as a quaint and old-fashioned put-down for the city. Typically, I saw the name used most often in non-local magazines and newspapers (such as National Geographic and the New York Times) during the mid-1980's to mid-1990's when these publications ran articles about the extensive revitalization of the city (especially in the downtown area) which had allowed Indianapolis to shed its "sleepy" image along with dated nicknames such as "India-no-place" and "Naptown." Around the mid-1990's or so, I became aware of an attempt to revive the "Naptown" name, driven mainly by the local hip-hop community. However, I just don't think it has caught on again among the large community so as to constitute a "common" nickname for the city. Certainly, I can honestly say I never heard anyone (regardless of the individual's race, gender, socio-economic class, etc.) say to a visitor anything like "I grew up here in Naptown," or to a friend "Man, I need to get away from Naptown," nor did I ever have anyone in Chicago or Detroit say to me, "So, you're from Naptown?", or "Yeah, you guys are crazy down there in Naptown!"

Personally, I like the Jazz-era history behind the Naptown name, and I would be glad to see it make a comeback. However, I just don't think it belongs in a list of common nicknames for the city. (And I agree, neither does the name "City of Siestas") Kangaroo1 10:10, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Nope, definitely not the same.

I did a web search to see what could be seen.

-Searching "Naptown" brought up more pages than I wished to look through on both Google and Ask.

The first 3 pages of Ask's search were all references to something in Indianapolis with one exception ("The Naptown Amplifier Co.", a band from TX who's first album was called something like "The Indiana Waltz").

The Google search brought pretty much the same. It did have a few references to Annapolis, however none of those were related to any organizations (One was obviously just a billboard, and the others were a wiki "urban dictionary").

-City of Siesta's brought one return showing Indianapolis (Specifically it brought a link to this very Wikipedia page). All of the other pages were in reference to either some city in Spain or in Central/South America. Not good for "City of Siesta's. My guess is that it was inserted as an attempt to promote a recent record release, or someone's personal desire.

I have used all of those phrases myself!! However I must admit, I have never said, "We are crazy down there in Naptown."

Circle City gets alot of play in the Media I agree. However, I cannot recall someone using it in conversation (other than in reference to the "C.C. Classic"). Most of the time it gets used in some shameless self promoting that is put on by the city itself. 159.218.115.182 00:52, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

naptown should be included in the nicknames in the intro

naptown is a term used more often than circle cirty yet is not included in the intro to this article

hoosier hott 96.3 uses the tern naptown like a million times every day

it used commonly by african americans and younger kids

there is even a song called Naptown riders by prophit and c-lo

how again is this not enough to be up there with the other nicknames?

it quite obviously IS a common nickname~! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.33.254.179 (talk) 04:33, 28 March 2007 (UTC).

It certainly appears that the consensus is to include "Naptown." I see that TheHoosierState89 keeps removing it, perhaps that person would like to comment here. Gruber76 03:16, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Just because some stupid rap radio station calls Indy Naptown doesnt make it a valid nickname. enough with all this BS rap (crap) culture! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by TheHoosierState89 (talk • contribs) 16:24, May 11, 2007 (UTC)

It is difficult to continue a discussion when you are reluctant to add to this talk page. We are left to try to guess your arguments from the brief edit summaries and a short unsigned entry here. My best summary of your argument (and please, please correct me if I've set up an inaccurate strawman argument) is that the nickname "Naptown" doesn't belong on this page because you have not heard it used. Additionally your dislike of rap culture leads you to suggest that even if the nickname "Naptown" begins to spread into the mainstream that it should not be included here because it originated in rap.

Here is my rebuttal:

I previously included a reference to a USA Today sports article that has no apparent relationship to rap culture.
naptown has been redirected to Indianapolis since September, 2005
Here is an article about a jazz guitarist, Wes_Montgomery, who died in 1968. Apparently during his lifetime his style was known as "the Naptown Sound" after his home town, Indianapolis.
With over one hundred thousand Google hits for the search word "naptown" there are many sites to choose from that indicate "Naptown" is a common nickname for Indianapolis. Even if we were to stipulate that wikipedia should remain free of rap influences, these guys are about as far from rap culture as I can imagine: [[1]]

Gruber76 02:40, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

My assertion is this....It's NOT a nickname. It's a term used by a relatively small portion of the population. "Nickname" to me, on these pages, indicates official nicknames, such as "The Big Apple," 'The Windy City," etc. You will NEVER hear Indianapolis, on ANY official documents called "Naptown." You will hear it called "Indy" and "The Circle City" etc, etc, etc. Simply put, Naptown is NOT a nickname, but a colloquial term used by a small portion of the population. A term which many in Indy actually find insulting and degrading. I'm not saying it doesn't warrant mention in the article...but it is CERTAINLY not a nickname for the city. Furthermore, to insinuate that it doesn't have anything to do with rap culture, is ridiculous and ill-informed. It may not have been initially related to rap culture, but it has become so. This itself, is not a reason to exclude it, however...when the main source of the usage of "Naptown" is a rap radio station...it doesn't lend much credence to it being an actual nickname...as opposed to a term a radio station uses. As I said in my edit summary...if I began calling Indianapolis the "City of Morons" or something like that...would we include that? No we would not, if it became sufficiently popular enough...it would be included SOMEWHERE in the page...but surely not as a nickname. Batman2005 20:43, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

You state that "Naptown" is not a nickname. I disagree and suggest you look at two wikipedia sources:

The entry for nickname
the template:infobox city entry.

You'll find that nicknames can be perceived as insults yet remain nicknames. And you'll find that the definition of the nickname field in the infobox template does not mention that it should be official. Take, for example, the following unofficial nicknames from other city infoboxes:

Chicago: "The 312"
Miami: MIA
Atlanta: Hotlanta (from an Allman Bros song, apparently)

Referring to "Naptown" as a "rap nickname" has high emotional and little or no semantic value. At no point did I intend to "insinuate that it doesn't have anything to do with rap culture." That would certainly be disingenuous. Instead, I was intending to state two things:

That even if the nickname were exclusively a "rap nickname" it might still be a valid nickname for the infobox--Vanilla Ice sold over ten times as many copies of his second album as there are residents of Indianapolis. He gets a Wikipedia entry.
That "Naptown" is not exclusively a "rap nickname" as it both predates rap culture by at least 15 years and is in current use outside of rap culture.

Gruber76 01:32, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

That's the thing, I don't agree with using "Hotlanta" for Atlanta either. THEY'RE SIMPLY NOT NICKNAMES! They're coined terms which are of use by a small portion of the overall population...and generally looked down upon by the majority of the city/town/state. And please, don't use th wikipedia entry for "nicknames," wikipedia has done a good enough job of skewing the true meaning of words, phrases, and theories to render most of the english language almost worthless. I disagree with including "The 312," "MIA," and "Hotlanta." as nicknames for their cities just as I disagree with including "Naptown" with Indianapolis. Once again, if this "rap" radio station starts calling Indy the "City of Morons" will we include that? No, we would not. Batman2005 10:25, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I'm encouraged that you're doing something about your perception that Wikipedia is skewing the language by contributing to Wikipedia. I think you're off on two points, in this situation, however.

The word "Nickname" has included derogatory or overly-familiar names for a very long time. Webster's 1828. Just because Wikipedia's definition of "nickname" is suspect doesn't mean that your definition ("Nicknames don't include coined terms which are of use by a small portion of the overall population") is accurate. In this case it is not.
The population using the nickname "Naptown" is larger than you're admitting (heck, it's mentioned in a Nelly song, and even I have heard of Nelly.) As I've described by pointing to the USA Today article. And the train web site. And the Jazz musician's entry. It appears to be widely used in the African American community, just not in the circles you travel.

Your declaration about "City of Morons" has enough problems that it is difficult to decide how to address it. First, it is proof by example, a logical fallacy with no substantive value as a line of reasoning. Further, I've established that the use of the nickname is not limited to a single radio station. And finally, if a large portion of the population referred to Indianapolis as the "City of Morons" I don't see any reason we couldn't include it here as a nickname. Gruber76 13:04, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Well the obvious reason would be because it wouldn't be a nickname. It would be a term used by a small portion of the population....that's not a nickname. Here's what I'm going to do then, since apparently any term used by anyone for the city is a "nickname," i'm going to start adding the ones I hear everyday to the article...just to show you how pointless it is to use terms such as "naptown" as nicknames. Batman2005 19:33, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Request for Comment: "Naptown"

Should "Naptown" be included in the infobox as a nickname? 18:14, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

I am not sure how this whole argument erupted over the nickname "Naptown." Although, for some reason, it seems to be a touchy issue. In truth, I don't know why nicknames necessarily need to be listed for cities at all. Typically, nicknames are only used by local residents, or certain segments of the local population. Even the few city nicknames that have caught on with the larger population are still generally not used as much as the real city name. For example, everyone knows that the "Big Apple" refers to New York City; however, few people would actually say, "I am flying to the Big Apple on Tuesday." Most people still just say "New York."

In any event, it seems even the proponents of listing the nickname "Naptown" don't know much about its history or origins. The name did NOT originate with the legendary R&B/jazz artist Wes Montgomery in the 1960's (although, he did record a cover of "Naptown Blues"). It came into usage decades before and became popular in the 1920's, especially among local African-American Jazz and Blues artists. The well-known Blues singer Leroy Carr recorded his famous song entitled "Naptown Blues" in 1929. The name "Naptown" was simply a shortening of "Indianapolis," and it became closely associated with the type of Jazz and Blues music created by local African-American artists of the time; in other words, "Naptown" came to refer to a particular style of music. At some point, in the 1950's or so, the name became adopted by the wider community as a derisive name for the city, referring to its "sleepy" and boring image. However, even that usage fell out-of-favor by the 1970's or so. The name was really resurrected by the national media during the late 1980's to refer to an old-fashioned and unflattering nickname (along with "India-no-place") for the city which no longer fit its dynamic and revitalized image. I do realize that beginning in the mid-1990's the local hip-hop scene sort of adopted the name to represent its own style of music and this caught on with a portion of the young urban crowd. But truthfully, most residents would not use the name, and many would not even know what it meant. I do concede, though, that whether or not the name warrants listing as a "common" nickname is a matter upon which reasonable minds could differ. However, I wish people would spend more time and energy improving the overall quality of the article (like fixing some of the sections which have lacked proper citations for at least a year) instead of debating whether or not a nickname should be listed. Wikipedia is supposed to be a scholarly online encyclopedia, not necessarily a travel guide or "local color" magazine. Until the basic items like proper citation, grammar, style, and consistent format are nailed down, online readers will not be able to consult these online articles with any sense of confidence. Kangaroo1 15:34, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Good points, and some interesting background. I live in Lafayette, not far from Indianapolis, and the only place I've ever heard or seen the term "Naptown" is in this Wikipedia article. However, I do hear "Indy" a lot, and "Circle City" every once in a while -- I suspect these are the only ones that the majority of residents are familiar with. I don't think any others merit inclusion. Huwmanbeing 12:27, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Columnist Mike Royko used to derisively refer to Indianapolis as "Naptown" (the sleepy sense) rather frequently in his columns, syndicated to many papers including the Indianapolis News. Naptown is a notable term for Indianapolis on that basis alone. Vadder 21:28, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Just because a radio station and some rap idiots call the city naptown doesnt make it a nickname. You will never hear the mayor the governor or anybody like that call it naptown. Im guessing only about 10% of the Indianapolis population even know about the "nickname" naptown. I will just delete naptown from the list nicknames every time it is listed.....—The preceding unsigned comment was added by TheHoosierState89 (talk • contribs) 20:46, 18 May 2007 (UTC).

Saying "I will just delete naptown from the list nicknames every time it is listed" is declaring that you intend to edit war. That isn't allowed here. If you do that, you may be blocked from editing by any Wikipedia administrator. The better thing to do is to work together here on the talk page and reach a consensus on whether or not to include the term. Based on what I said earlier, I still think the term should be included. Vadder 23:29, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

One determined voice will outshine all your logic... Just liken a gooden soldat should... If the above arguments, well formed and crafted by both Guber76 and Kangeroo1 (protest noted), are not convincing enough, me personally thinks you should rethink where you learned logic in the first place. Reduntant vote for Naptown in Nickname List from myself 68.72.59.111 (previously 159.218.115.182)

I live in Indianapolis, and my friends use the phrase "Naptown" frequently. Thank you to whomever edited my adding of Naptown and accused me of vandalism, but just because you don't like the name doesn't mean it isn't valid to be listed. I guess because it's used more in "urban" speak, it's not important to be listed on wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.236.26.112 (talk • contribs) 19:51, 4 June 2007

Comment from uninvolved editor. I have no prior knowledge of this topic or the editors involved. I am here from the RfC and the post at WP:WQA#Give peace a chance in Indianapolis, Indiana. I have a few comments:

Naptown is clearly a commonly nickname for Indianapolis and meets the Wikipedia policies for including it in the article so there is no reason to omit it. It easily satisfies WP:NOTABILITY and WP:VERIFIABILITY. A Google search turns up more than 146,000 webpages mentioning the term "Naptown". A quick spot check of the pages listed show that a large majority of those pages uses the term as a nickname for Indianapolis. The other uses seem to be mostly company or sport team names, also indirectly referring to Indianapolis. There may be other uses, but I did not find any. Even if there are other uses, that would not change the fact that it is a verifiable and notable nickname for this city. In addition, the discussion above includes a variety of reliable sources that could be referenced in the article to support the inclusion of the nickname.

It also seems clear from the discussion above that there is consensus to include the term as a nickname. While there seem to be two dissenting editors, a significant majority of the comments are in favor of keeping the name, and many have provided detailed reasoning. This meets WP:CONSENSUS.

I agree with Vadder in his comment above that this statement:

I will just delete naptown from the list nicknames every time it is listed.....—The preceding unsigned comment was added by TheHoosierState89 (talk • contribs) 20:46, 18 May 2007 (UTC).

is a threat of edit warring and a form of disruptive editing. As Vadder pointed out, that sort of behavior can result in being blocked if it continues.

Continually reverting edits that have the support of consensus is known as tendentious editing. I recommend that the editors working on this page read that article and the other ones I have linked here, and follow the suggestions and procedures in the articles for ways of responding to difficult situations. --Parzival418 _Hello 20:44, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

TheHoosierState89: I am not trying to goad you into an edit war, or to get you blocked, but you should be aware of the risk. You did not object, here in the talk page, to the declaration of consensus made three days ago, despite active editing on your part during each of the last three days. There are a number of points here in the talk page that you have not addressed, including Parzival418's lucid arguments just above. Your most recent edit to the page indicated that you had taken part in this discussion, but your most recent comment was made three weeks ago. Please join us in this discussion. Gruber76 22:39, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm new here and found it interesting that so many people actually think naptown is a nickname. I live in the city have never heard naptown while I have heard Indy and Circle City. I don't think naptown should be included because of how few people actually use it. Plus you will never hear anyone like the mayor or governor use it. Warrior08 00:29, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

It may be a good idea to consider the definition of the word nickname and in particular nicknames of geographical places. "Naptown" clearly is not a formally accepted title of the city, but (for the reasons I and others have already noted), it is also clearly a word that many people do use to refer to Indianapolis. So, it's a nickname but not a title. I don't really understand why any editor would feel it important to remove this from the article; it's just a nickname, why is that a problem? If extra clarity is desired, it would be possible to edit the info box to provide a separate entry for formal titles of the city, and keep the nicknames separate.

By the way, sometimes nicknames can be derogatory, and still be valid nicknames. However, just to be clear, as a person not from that area, I do not get the impression this nickname is negative. It seems like a friendly sounding name. If your reason for wanting to revert the name is based on possible negative impressions, that would still not be a valid Wikipedia policy reason to remove it, but aside from all the WP policy stuff - I really don't feel you would need to worry about that nickname appearing to be an insult. To me anyway, that nickname sounds like a friendly place. --Parzival418 _Hello 01:42, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Comment from another uninvolved editor. I also have no prior knowledge of this topic or the editors involved. I read about the post at WP:WQA#Give peace a chance in Indianapolis, Indiana and this is my own view. WP:NOTE only relates to the suitabilty for inclusion of topics, not information. With no official acceptance, with nap-town appearing to apply to several other things as well as Indianapolis and with such clearly diverging opinions between editors even on the origin of the name, my own view is that this matter really relates to an item of trivia and guidelines under WP:TRIVIA should be considered. It's significance as a nickname is clearly a matter of individual POV and as Wikis NPOV is absolute and non-negotiable, I fail to see why it should be considered worthy of inclusion. Mighty Antar 14:41, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

I think that Mighty Antar is mistaken as to the meaning of Neutral Point of View. The information included in the encyclopedia is supposed to be neutral in its point of view, which is to say not trying to advance a particular agenda but as much as possible recording the verified facts of the situation. The same applies to which facts to include (we don't choose facts to advance a particular agenda). But the fact that editors disagree as to inclusion of a fact does not mean that the fact is advancing a point of view. It often indicates that the matter is either a question of editorial judgment or a factual dispute. It is a fact that Wes Montgomery has referred to Indianapolis as Naptown (note where that redirects to) and that there are current usages (e.g., Naptown Roller Girls). The only remaining question is whether it is notable enough. I think that the evidence indicates that it is. Vadder 19:35, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Actually I fully understand NPOV, I don't think Vadder has read WP:TRIVIA#Other policies apply. Indy as a nickname is a long and well-established fact, Naptown is not and as such it needs to be placed within the article with appropriate citations or removed Mighty Antar 17:44, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Mighty Antar, as detailed previously by Kangaroo1, the nickname Naptown is not new or unestablished. This reference (^[1]) was removed during one of the edits. It's a usage in a major national newspaper. Does this address your concerns? Gruber76 04:51, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

I think that would be a great reference, but the difficulty I have is that it's being used for other towns e.g. Annapolis, Maryland[2], Waldorf, Maryland[3]. This would suggest to me that you need more substantive material to show clearly that it is being used as nickname rather than a slangadjective. Mighty Antar 11:12, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Kangaroo1's brief history of the nickname addressed that issue fairly well. Finding a handful of uses of Naptown referring to other cities doesn't, I believe, preclude it being a nickname for Indianapolis much as my friend Charles can have the nickname Chuck even though it may also be your friend's nickname. And the 90 year history is indicative of it not being a "slangadjective." Do you have some more substantive yardstick we can use? Then we can discuss the validity of a nickname in a common language and/or discuss the validity of the test you've proposed.

I think this topic has been discussed to death. Leave Naptown in the nickname list and move on. Where have all these people posting on the nickname debate been for the past couple of years? The Crime section still needs citations and/or to be edited down. I have made several edits to the article over the years, as have a few other people. Now, it would be good for others to try their hand at scholarly editing. The article could use further revisions and additions, including citations. Also, several neighborhoods of Indianapolis either have no article or only have short stubs. Let's all focus our efforts on improving the Indianapolis content and close this debate out. Kangaroo1 20:01, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

I just wanted to add an additional viewpoint, and I am not of an opinion one way or another so I am not trying to side with pro or con. Naptown was a very common nickname back in the late 60's and 70's and today I still think of this era when I hear the name used, particularly in conjunction with the rich musical heritage here in Indianpolis during the same time frame. I believe it is a cyclic thing since it is evidently being used by a younger generation once again. The fact that it goes back quite a long time ago and has repeatedly come into vogue seems to indicate that it is a part of the history of the city. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.15.41.212 (talk) 17:13, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

why is Naptown not included under nicknames?

Naptown is used far far more than cirle city by the youth and hip hop community. Why is it not included?

Exactly! youth and hip hop is not a majority of the city's population. Anyways please just let this stupid topic die, its not a nickname. --TheHoosierState89

Once again, if you review the entry for Nickname you'll find that Naptown clearly falls under the definition. You have made it apparent that you dislike "youth and hip hop community" but your distaste should not guide us in what does and does not get included in Wikipedia. Gruber76 15:56, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Naptown inclusion

There has been no response to my comments on June 21 or June 26th arguing to include Naptown. A consensus was declared and has not been refuted. Please either leave "Naptown" in the page or join the discussion. Gruber76 03:47, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

I have joined several times. I have asked around and only 1 person out of 12 I asked had even heard of the name "naptown". It is never mentioned in any news or by the governor/mayor. However I have heard Circle City and Indy about a million times. It really just pertains to a certain group of people and just because it's one groups nickname for the city doesn't make it a nickname. And you say I just hate the "youth group" well thats not true because I'm in the youth group. By your standards if a certain group of people starting calling the city crime central or whatever it should be listed in the nicknames section.TheHoosierState89

An informal poll of 12 people doesn't go far to refute the arguments that have been made before. The previous discussion has indicated very strongly that Naptown is used by a significant number of people, is notable, and has the weight of references. That your experience has not exposed you to the use of Naptown does not mean it is not a nickname. Gruber76 04:03, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

12 is better than none in my opinion. I've heard of naptown but I dont think its a valid nickname and shouldnt be included on the nicknames list. just leave it off and end this stupid argument, who cares if it isn't listed, move on ~ Thrillrider08

If you believe this discussion to be beneath you, you have the option of walking away. Otherwise, please help keep the discussion civil. 1/12 of TheHoosierState89's friends have heard the nickname Naptown; how is that an argument against including it as a nickname? Reading the definition of nickname it appears that what you and TheHoosierState89 are advocating is only using "titles" in the "nickname" field. Gruber76 12:28, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

I would like to call on those who find it necessary to defend the city of Indianapolis from "poor nicknames", to spend some of their energy defending the city from a crappy wiki article. We have multiple sections that are difficult to read and at least one list that needs to be removed and either placed into the text or deleted. On top of that we are missing, in my opinion, much of the culture of Indianapolis, though that might be out of the Wiki bounds. Please, if you are going to spend the time here arguing, at least spend some time doing some useful editing as well. Apwall21 00:04, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Home of Northwest Airlines?

The wording "home of Northwest Airlines" makes it sound like NWA is headquartered in Indianapolis. This is not true--Northwest is headquartered in Minnesota, while Indy is merely a focus city. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.29.178.254 (talk) 00:50, 13 May 2007 (UTC).

Primary School Listings

I thought Batman had a good point in his revision,

"no reason to list "roman-catholic" schools, why not all schools of religious affiliation, and why "IB schools" why not schools with good sports teams...."

I wonder if it would be possible to make a list of the private primary institutions in Indianapolis? Personally, I recall the intent of Public Schooling to be for those who could not otherwise not afford a private education, therefore making it the exception in intent, not the norm. Or at least that is my Opinion. Comments? Suggestions?68.251.249.145 06:35, 4 June 2007 (UTC)edit(apparently i do not have a static I.P.)Apwall21 06:48, 4 June 2007 (UTC) (Previously 159.218.115.182)

I think Batman was suggesting that it doesn't further the article to list all of the private schools, nor does it make sense to list only some of the private schools. Much as there has not been included a list of Indianapolis's libraries. And if that is what Batman was saying, then I agree. In my opinion such a list would become an indiscriminate collection of information.

News Media

Is it just me or does it seem like the current listing of newsprint is akin to advertising? 159.218.115.182 01:14, 18 January 2007 (UTC) I guess I'm looking at the idea of naming a paper as the widest-read. It may be true that the star has the most subscriptions, however whether or not people read what they receive is not ours to determine.159.218.115.182 14:07, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't know if I should add a comment area, but I think the Media section should be pulled and placed in its own article. For example see San Jose and Media in San Jose, California At the minimum it should probably be removed from the "recreation" section. Apwall21 07:11, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

I noticed that someone placed a marker at the start of the Media page, could you please explain to me (I can't find it the proper pages) if, or why, a list would be a better than a separate page? * Nevermind, went ahead and created new page. Would appreciate help getting Media in Indianapolis, Indiana into sub-article status, or at least getting it to fully match guidelines. Apwall21 14:50, 5 July 2007 (UTC) Apwall21 16:22, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Making wikipedia unreliable.

Where in the heck did you get 153 murders for Indianapolis? None of that information is verified.

On top of that, Indianapolis has 140 murders in 2006.

It is fixed with a reference. Instead of complaining, why don't you be kind and correct it yourself? Also, remember to sign your posts. Reywas92^{TalkReview me} 01:20, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Never mind. Is was correct. Indystar has it at 153. Reywas92^{TalkReview me} 01:24, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Lucasoilplanned.jpg

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Article Size

Why is this article considered too long when some pages are much much longer?

Demographics

Under Demographics, I added the City of Indianapolis Population by year history from 1850 thru 2000. JeffreyAllen1975 04:39, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

This page would be a much more enjoyable read if the Demographics were not the introduction. I would site New York City, Chicago, London etc. Would someone please write an introduction that is not simply a lesson on the Census and just how many people live in Indy? Apwall21 15:31, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I didn't remove demographics from the intro, but I did remove it from the first paragraph, as it missed the point of an enjoyable, readable, article introduction. I am not adverse to a rewrite of the intro at all, just PLEASE don't start the article with numbers which are only interesting to someone extremely interested in the Census policy.Apwall21 16:48, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Discussion History Page?

As the discussion page has become unmanagable is there a way of moving, or removing, some amount of the older discussions that have been finished?Apwall21 01:22, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Numeric Symbols instead of Written Numbers

There are multiple places in this article where numbers are used instead of words. Does anyone know if this is appropriate practice? I will look agian, but jeez there are alot of wiki pages...Apwall21 01:22, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Airport

Hoosier, I noticed you re-added the 'cutting traveling time at the airport in half'. What does this statement mean? Are they expecting that flights will take half the time? Are they saying that travel to the airport from my house will take half the time? This language is not completely descriptive and therefor, IMO, inappropriate. Apwall21 09:12, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

With the new roads coming off of interstate 70 (Six Points Road) it makes it much easier to get in and out of the airport. Aiport Expressway worked well for a while but now it old and crowded. Plus the current entrance to airport is too small and often confusing for travelers. TheHoosierState89

My problem is that the main purpose of an airport, for most people, is travel. It is a rational statement to say 'I travel from the airport.' Hence when we say that we are cutting travel time we must be specifically clear where and what we are cutting. Are we speaking of time once on airport property to our flight-gate? Are we speaking of time from the car-park to the entrance? Simply, for the intent of clarity this language is too vague, but I fear that clarifying 'half the time' is also superfluous. As I currently have no better replacement than removal, I will wait for your reply before attempting further edits. Apwall21 09:11, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

From what I've heard and read it's a combination of all of that. The new roads are quicker to travel and the new terminal will be much easier to move through, you can re-word it or delete it, I don't care.TheHoosierState89

I will try to find a way to reword it if possible. Thank you. Apwall21 14:34, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Trivia Section

Wikipedia has determined the 'Other Facts' Section to be trivia. Therefor, it is appropriate to remove items, by adding them to other parts of the article. It is not appropriate to add to them. If you have an interesting 'factoid' please try to find the appropriate place for it in the text of the article. Apwall21 14:34, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Cityscape

I've noticed almost every other major city has a cityscape section except Indianapolis. Shouldn't there be one and if so is anyone willing to help create it. Thanks TheHoosierState89 19:35, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

I live downtown. If I get a chance, I'll take a photo. =David^(talk)_(contribs) 01:08, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Okay thanks for your help. I created the cityscape section, please clean up in any way you feel need. Also, we need to find a way to get a panoramic view. Not sure where we could find one though. TheHoosierState89 04:25, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Largest Festival

The largest festival held in Indy is the Italian Street Festival, NOT the African-American based festival. Not to mention, it is sourced by the Wiki article itself Italian Street Festival. Perhaps someone could edit it to proper Wiki standards. Nikki88 23:49, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

No it is correct, the Black Expo brings in over 300,000 people from all over the country. In fact the Black Expo is the largest cultural event in the United States. TheHoosierState89 00:00, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I think the issue is what is considered 'ethnic' or 'cultural'. For simplification and to avoid this becoming a 'how dare you' session, maybe we need to remove the designation of 'ethnic festival' all together? Just leave it at festivals and celebrations? Also, considering the volume of information, could this section be better served as a link to a sub-article entitled 'Festivals of Indianapolis' or similar? apwall21 on 76.251.80.142 —Preceding comment was added at 21:01, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

In the interest of adding more information to the Festivals section, and to shorten the Indianapolis Article at the same time, I want to discuss moving the Festivals section to its own page. I hope that the many different events can be explored in greater depth on a separate page. Apwall21 07:10, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject: Indianapolis

I'm starting a WikiProject for Indianapolis. Please add your name to the list of interested editors here. Thanks! -JT 02:14, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I added myself, great idea! TheHoosierState89 02:25, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! I've got a lot of plans for the Project. I think we can make it really great. -JT 18:11, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Archieves

I've noticed a lot of other articles archieve their discussion pages. This one is getting very long and if anyone knows how to archieve please do so. A good example would be Atlanta. Thanks -- TheHoosierState89 02:21, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree and done. I don't think anyone would have a problem with the archive, but if so, please let me know! -JT 20:57, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Sports

Hoosier, I noticed in your edit that you mentioned the idea that Sports do not belong under Culture.

I would have to say that Sports are a huge part of Culture, and that there is more than a little bit of Cultural biased to sports. For instance, many nations that the UK colonized still play cricket, as baseball just never caught on. If you say Football in Italy you are speaking of, what those of us in the US call, Soccer. Of course one might argue that sports are not just a past time, but they are also at the same time a mating ritual, rite of passage, and apparatus for social hierarchical placement. Still, these definitions are relevant as issues in relation to cultural understanding, even if there are those who can exploit our cultural enjoyments of competition for large sums of monies.

I think it is inappropriate to separate the two, not just in relation to Indianapolis, but to any society at any point ever.Apwall21 —Preceding comment was added at 07:05, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Anything of entertainment value is part of culture, whether that's going to the IMA, the Murat, a concert, or a Colts game. -JT 15:59, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

It's not that I don't think sports isn't a part of culture, because I think it's a large part of culture. But I think sports is a major part of Indianapolis and should have it's own section. TheHoosierState89 22:16, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

You are arguing that the former "Amateur Sports Capital of the World" should have sports in a prominent section? It sounds convincing, but however much impact sporting events have on the city, the same could be said for Eli Lilly, Allison Transmissions, Woodruff Place, Hooks Drug Stores, and any number of culturally or economic entities or events. For instance New York; "The New York metropolitan area is the only one in the United States with more than one team in each of the four major sports, with nine such franchises." The New York article does not separate Sports from Culture, despite the fact that you could argue red in the face with, if not millions of, tens of thousands of new yorkers who would tell you Sports is a huge part of New York. Los Angeles, doesn't separate them. Simply, to break the Wikipedia format for our fair city's sports is not useful. May I suggest that you do what the New York City and LA Los Angeles articles have done, and write up a new article on Sports In Indianapolis -- Sports in New York City, Sports in Los Angeles. apwall21 on 76.248.68.130 05:49, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Map

The map in the infobox is incorrect; the area highlighted is in fact Indianapolis (balance), Indiana. —Random832 21:19, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Ethnic and cultural heritage festivals

Okay so we've had a couple of issues with this section in recent days. I feel we should limit it to more noticable and larger festivals. If we get specific we'll have to include all the smaller/more local ones and that will get way out of hand. Comments? HoosierState 03:05, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

The main problem with the statement that is being re-added is it is written like an advertisement.

I believe the argument about this festival being one-of-a-kind and that it represents such a large population qualifies it for this section. I also disagree with its wording. How about dropping the "for more information..." part and making the name of the church a link to the site? Jasssmit (talk) 03:53, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

That sounds good to me, I'll do that right now. If anyone objects please express it here before making more changes to it so we can avoid another edit war. HoosierState 03:56, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I'm gonna reword my post to make it sound less hostile. Sorry about that.

The current title is too grab bag. There is no logical reason that organizations and festivals should be in the same place, unless these organizations are hosting these events.

Again, I protest the use of Ethnic (too easy to offend and too hard to define) and add a protest of the use Cultural. It's all cultural. That's the title of section 7, so why repeat ourselves?

Perhaps we could subsection this list into: Conventions - Obviously Conventions are Conventions. Black Expo, GenCon, etc.

Events - Those events centered for-profit in foundation as well as those events centered on a singular event such as the 500Festival and Circle City Classic.

Festivals - Festival would be anything that was not centered around a single event, such as the Greek Fest etc.

As for Organizations, this becomes hairy. Many organizations, though not claiming political affiliation, are political in nature. Many organizations, though not operating as businesses, are just as interested in maintaining income as many businesses. We should talk on this further...

I'm pretty busy, so I don't know if I will be able to resection this to show it too you, but if you guys agree, feel free to implement.

Apwall21 (talk) 00:35, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Also, The Mini-Marathon needs to be moved to this section as well. Apwall21 (talk) 01:08, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

^ Colts' arrival transformed Indy into major sports city, USA Today, January 28, 2007, accessed April 21, 2007. "INDIANAPOLIS (AP) — A convoy of moving vans brought more than the Colts to Indianapolis. The westward migration that cold, snowy night almost a quarter-century ago also awakened Naptown to a new era of professional football and transformed the city into a major league sports town."

[1] Colts' arrival transformed Indy into major sports city, USA Today, January 28, 2007, accessed April 21, 2007. "INDIANAPOLIS (AP) — A convoy of moving vans brought more than the Colts to Indianapolis. The westward migration that cold, snowy night almost a quarter-century ago also awakened Naptown to a new era of professional football and transformed the city into a major league sports town."

[1]