Talk:Ifrit/GA1
GA Review[edit]
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Reviewer: Cerebellum (talk · contribs) 11:00, 13 December 2019 (UTC)
- It is reasonably well written.
- It is factually accurate and verifiable.
- a (reference section):
b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):
- Referencing is thorough, just need to format references appropriately.
- a (reference section):
- It is broad in its coverage.
- a (major aspects): b (focused):
- The image captions made me think that there may be more aspects of the afarit that are not covered in the article.
- a (major aspects):
- It follows the neutral point of view policy.
- Fair representation without bias:
- Yes, does a good job of presenting folk beliefs in a neutral manner.
- Fair representation without bias:
- It is stable.
- No edit wars, etc.:
- No edit wars, etc.:
- It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.
- a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
- Extensive use of appropriate images throughout.
- a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales):
- Overall:
- Pass/Fail:
I'll place this on hold for one week, to allow time to address the comments below. It's a fascinating topic and you've done a good job of synthesis a broad range of scholarly material. --Cerebellum (talk) 12:17, 15 December 2019 (UTC)All of my concerns have been resolved, I'm happy to pass as GA. --Cerebellum (talk) 12:11, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
- Pass/Fail:
Comments[edit]
- Spelling: Since Afarit is used frequently in the text, shouldn't it be listed as one of the spellings at the top?
- Capitalization: According to WP:MOSISLAM, Words of Arabic origin should be written out in lower case, except at the beginning of a sentence, and italicized. So I think ifrit and afarit should not be capitalized. I'll leave it up to you if you want them in italics, personally I think that would be overkill.
- Lead: I don't think it's necessary to include all possible transliterations in the lead, I would just include the two or three most common.
- Lead: Per WP:LEADCITE, it's not necessary to include citations in the lead as long as the information is cited in the article body.
- Quranic citation: In "Islamic scriptures", is the text about sura an-naml a direct quote? If so consider using a quote template or italics to distinguish it from the surrounding text.
- References: For your references, please use a reference template instead of just writing out the citation, so it formats properly. Examples of this are #3 and #15.
- References: It seems like references #2, 4, 5, and 14 are all to the same Encyclopedia of Islam entry. Can you combine these?
- References: For reference #6, please provide an English translation of the title, using the "trans-title=" parameter of cite web.
- I have a German Book at home, witht he same statement, maybe this one is better as source, since it is usually more likely to retrace for most readers.
- References: Reference #30 is missing a page number.
- References: For reference #29, since it's a four-volume work, please provide the volume number.
- Prose: The prose is a little idiosyncratic, like it was written by a non-native speaker, no problem though I'll revise it this week.
- References: Is #31 available online? If so please include a URL.
- I have not find an online version.
- Images: Great selection of images, however they leave me wanting to know more. Who is Arghan Div? Who is Makhan and why is he embracing an Ifrit? Who is the Chief-Ifrit? If there is any information available about these images and the mythology associated with them, please add it to the article text. The images even make me think it might be possible to add information about depictions of the afarit: they are large and have fangs in two of the images, and in the one from the Book of Wonders I was a little confused. Is the Malik al-Aswad the ifrit? So the Chief Ifrit and the Malik al-Aswad are the same entity? --Cerebellum (talk) 12:17, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
- As far as I understand, yes "Malik al-Aswad" is "the black king", here a chief-ifrit. Maybe I can extend th picture section, but I am always cautious regarding Islamic paintings, since they had been less examined than many Western pictures and the tradition they are about are often unknown. For example, the Chief-Ifrit picture is said to derive from a "dream", that means, the artist believed to have seen the ifrit in his dream or got an inspiration from "the other world" to draw them. It is not as with in Christian arts, when artist always tried to cover a well-known myth (such as the angelic fall) over and over again. Also there is no fixed demon-hierarchy, we could identify certain jinn and afrit with others. I (but I can not add this here since this would be Original Research) know about a tale in the Ikhwan as Safa, when jinn complain to an ifrit-king about human's misdeeds on earth and how they treat other intelligent life. I suspect the picture is about such a story, probably well known in Classical Islamic culture, but not covered by academic sources in our time, probably since it is much harder to identify pictures to their corresponding narartives. I recently also found a book of pictures regarding super natural cretures. The author wrote, he does not know to which narrative it belongs, probably to a today unknown oral-tradition, while I myself recognized most of the figures. I think the same is about the "Chief-Ifrit"-picture, the exact source can not be determined, and maybe the artist just drew that he imagined. Regarding Arghan-Div, I only found a short reference to the image in secondary sources, that means, it is indeed an ifrit and the story exists (it is about the uncle of Muhammad) but no further explanation of the story and how it was composed. I am uncertain, a short-reference would suffice. Maybe there should be a larger section explaining afarit in paintings?--VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 13:43, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
- First, thank you for reviwing the article. I will fix the issues as soon as possible. For the references, it might take some days. Regarding the picture I will write a comment after a few fixes.--VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 12:56, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
- Ok, I understand you're limited to what the secondary sources say. I do think a section about afarit in paintings would be helpful, but only if the sources support it. --Cerebellum (talk) 09:39, 17 December 2019 (UTC)
- I rechecked the source I found and I am uncertain about adding an entire section for "ifrit in art", despite I would really like to. I think about the possibility or add at least an explanation for the pictures, so they do not stand out. I mean, suddenly there is an ifrit called "Arghan Div" without any relation to the article, I would add at least a short explanation if not an entire section.--VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 12:42, 19 December 2019 (UTC) edit: I would really like to add the story narrated in the source to the Popular Culture Section, but the source itself does no give a clear origin of the story. Probably it is an oral tradition and I think, for an encyclopedia entry, too vague. However the picture is well explained, I will extend the description. A specific "in Art"-section seems to be impossible. The depiction of them is too ambiguous. The afarit in Egypt usually look like Egypt Deities or ghosts, the Morrocan afarit like Monsters, the afarit in The Nights like Divs (another type of demon in Islam).--VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 22:42, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
- Ok, no problem. --Cerebellum (talk) 12:11, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
- I rechecked the source I found and I am uncertain about adding an entire section for "ifrit in art", despite I would really like to. I think about the possibility or add at least an explanation for the pictures, so they do not stand out. I mean, suddenly there is an ifrit called "Arghan Div" without any relation to the article, I would add at least a short explanation if not an entire section.--VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 12:42, 19 December 2019 (UTC) edit: I would really like to add the story narrated in the source to the Popular Culture Section, but the source itself does no give a clear origin of the story. Probably it is an oral tradition and I think, for an encyclopedia entry, too vague. However the picture is well explained, I will extend the description. A specific "in Art"-section seems to be impossible. The depiction of them is too ambiguous. The afarit in Egypt usually look like Egypt Deities or ghosts, the Morrocan afarit like Monsters, the afarit in The Nights like Divs (another type of demon in Islam).--VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 22:42, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
- Did another read through and copy edit, want to make sure I understand properly: the Shabak believe that Ali existed before the creation of Adam?? --Cerebellum (talk) 10:15, 17 December 2019 (UTC)
- Yes indeed, both Muhammad and Ali existed before Adam there. The notion that Muhammad existed before Adam was also prominent among Muslims prior to the various Salafi-movements (movements which frist tried to rationalize Islam). Maybe this was also a reason Muslims were surprised when Jesus claimed to have existed before earth was created. I once read some Muslims assert the same about Moses, but this one was less popular than the same idea about Jesus, Ali or Muhammad. (I am a Sunni descendant of Ottoman heritage, and also know about pre-existing of Muhammad. The idea is basically that the soul of Muhammad existed before biological men, but was later sent to earth in eathly flesh and blood.) In short, yes the Shabak community beliefs Ali existed before Adam as somethign like a "spiritual human", before the earthly human (Adam) have been created.--VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 12:42, 19 December 2019 (UTC) edit_ just in case you are interested: "M.J. KISTER ADAM: A STUDY OF SOME LEGENDS IN TAFSIR AND HADIT LITERATURE Approaches to the History 0f the Interpretation of The Qur'an, Oxford 1988 p.129" mentiones a narration about Ali mentioned in the heavens, when Adam roamed paradise, concluding Ali and Muhammad existed before Adam. But only the Shia version is said to include Ali, here.--VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 00:40, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
- Fascinating, thank you! Reminds me of the Christian idea that Jesus existed before the world as well. Ok, thank you for your edits on the article, I'll close out the review. --Cerebellum (talk) 12:09, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you very much for the review.--VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 12:52, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
- Fascinating, thank you! Reminds me of the Christian idea that Jesus existed before the world as well. Ok, thank you for your edits on the article, I'll close out the review. --Cerebellum (talk) 12:09, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
- Yes indeed, both Muhammad and Ali existed before Adam there. The notion that Muhammad existed before Adam was also prominent among Muslims prior to the various Salafi-movements (movements which frist tried to rationalize Islam). Maybe this was also a reason Muslims were surprised when Jesus claimed to have existed before earth was created. I once read some Muslims assert the same about Moses, but this one was less popular than the same idea about Jesus, Ali or Muhammad. (I am a Sunni descendant of Ottoman heritage, and also know about pre-existing of Muhammad. The idea is basically that the soul of Muhammad existed before biological men, but was later sent to earth in eathly flesh and blood.) In short, yes the Shabak community beliefs Ali existed before Adam as somethign like a "spiritual human", before the earthly human (Adam) have been created.--VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 12:42, 19 December 2019 (UTC) edit_ just in case you are interested: "M.J. KISTER ADAM: A STUDY OF SOME LEGENDS IN TAFSIR AND HADIT LITERATURE Approaches to the History 0f the Interpretation of The Qur'an, Oxford 1988 p.129" mentiones a narration about Ali mentioned in the heavens, when Adam roamed paradise, concluding Ali and Muhammad existed before Adam. But only the Shia version is said to include Ali, here.--VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 00:40, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
- Ok, I understand you're limited to what the secondary sources say. I do think a section about afarit in paintings would be helpful, but only if the sources support it. --Cerebellum (talk) 09:39, 17 December 2019 (UTC)
- First, thank you for reviwing the article. I will fix the issues as soon as possible. For the references, it might take some days. Regarding the picture I will write a comment after a few fixes.--VenusFeuerFalle (talk) 12:56, 15 December 2019 (UTC)