Talk:Heating, ventilation, and air conditioning/Archive 1

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This is the first Archive for Talk:HVAC This page contains archived information from Talk:HVAC We may want to break archives down by topic or thread later, for right now I just moved everything prior to 07 to this archive

Atlant 19:34, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank-you!

--VegKilla 18:49, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

All air and Air water

These terms are used a couple of times in the article but there is no explanation of what they mean and the differences between them. Could sombody please put this in.

thanks

Completed To-Do Items List

Move items here from the "Main To-Do List" when they are complete (or just delete them). Feel free to delete items from this list if it is no longer helpful to know that they have been completed.

Questions

Simple question:

Why does the air dry out in a heated house in the winter?

A dehumidifier is often run in cold climates in winter to reduce the humidity in the house. This is done to keep water from condensing on the interior of the windows, which would happen if you had warm, moist air on the inside, and a very cold window pain. Hope that helps. Mr Minchin 14:48, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I think you mean a humidifier here. Most homes are too dry already in the wintertime, so running a dehumidifier would exacerbate the problem (which would cause higher heating bills, damaged woodwork, and excess static electricity in the home). Usually, the only people who use a wintertime dehumidifier are those who have an indoor pool, spa, leaky basement, or some other source of steam/water. Jeremy RBC 16:47, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
It is fairly simple. When it is cold outside, that air is typically quite dry, for example, at freezing, Relative Humidity could be as low as 10-15% or less. This is the only source of fresh air for your house during the heating season (or any season for that matter!). As dry outdoor air enters your house, it mixes with the 'indoor air' and reduces the overall relative humidity. A further reason your house will dry out is that your heating source will also 'dry' the air. Combine these factors, over a long winter, and you can appreciate how the air dries out. To maintain a constant temperature / humidity in a typically home would require a year round cooling source, a heating source, a humidification method and a de-humidification method. TIP: If you have a rare warm humid day during the winter you might want to consider opening enough doors and windows to bring in any available outdoor air humidity - this can replace moisture long gone in the structure and materials in your home. I suggest: ASHRAE, the self-directed professional organization, at ASHRAE.ORG as an excellent resource. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.112.72.218 (talk • contribs) .

uh-oh. It goes like this: many houses are leaky although "you" can't feel the leaks. Place your hand over an electrical outlet during a winter wind storm and you'll notice the outsid eair coming through the walls. These houses have often felt to be "Dry" in winter. Many new houses are much more airtight but still not airtight. Kitchen and bathroom vents, windows, doors, all let air in. These houses are often felt to be too humid in winter. In both cases, humidity can build up in the attic -- since water vapor is lighter than air. - Plus, many people want to reduce Relative Humidity to belwo the optimal growing conditions for Dust Mites. (ie. below 60% at 72F, 20C). Dehumidifying in winter is common. People used to humidify in winter more than they do now.

If the moisture is being removed from the air, how does it happen and where is the water going?

If you're talking about a dehumidifier, it goes into what amounts to a bucket in the bottom of the machine. This has to be emptied from time to time. I imagine "plumbed in" ones where the water goes straight down the drain are available, and presumably this is the case with air-conditioning.

No, I don't mean with a dehumidifier. I mean that the house gets drier in the winter time merely by being heated.
this is a complex subject that I have been trying to understand over the past few months, so this may not the best answer, but better than none, I hope. Winter outside air is colder, this colder air has (an average) lesser amount of water vapor in it, over time heating an inside space that has leaks (doos/windows etc) will gradually reduce the average moisture inside the house, I'll write more soon, got to eat now, Teeteetee 18:52, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
To build on that thought, furnaces often use outdoor air for combustion and remove indoor air along with exhaust, creating a cycle where moist air is continuously replaced with dry. Add to that the fact that most homes don't have sealed ductwork and that heated air rises (often finding places to escape in the attic and ceiling), and you end up with a home that is drier than most deserts! Jeremy RBC 16:47, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Cold air being warmed up will always feel dry when warm. Its RH is low. Its drying capacity is high. Even if no humidity is removed by any de-humidifier, it will feel dry and it will be rrelatively speaking fairly dry comapred to what one is used to.

Is it the case (as it seems to me) that steam radiators make for a drier house?

Can't see why steam radiators as opposed to water ones would make any difference. Radiators might be drier than air if the air being blown round were damp.

Relative Humidity

Air expands when heated, thereby increasing its ability to retain moisture. When it is cool outside, the warm air will tend to flow out of the house through structural leaks or an open door/window, carrying with it the humidity that was accumulated. BustlinSlug 23:33, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Expanding on what BustlinSlug said, houses are not airtight and are constantly exchanging air with the outside. The cold outside air is carrying relatively little water vapor (as most of the vapor has condensed out or frozen out), so when that relatively dry air leaks/exchanges into the house and is heated, it is still carrying the same very small amount of water vapor, but is now (say) 60-70 degrees F hotter, so in terms of Relative humidity, it is now really, really dry.
Expanding on points made by others, you're then limited in how much you can humidify the air because wherever the humidified inside air reaches a cold surface (below the dew point of the humidified inside air), water vapor condenses out to form moisture. This can happen at windows, air leak points, and, much more insidiously, inside the thermal insulation inside your walls, possibly wetting your insulation (and thereby reducing its effectiveness) or even rotting the outer sheathing of your house.
Atlant 15:44, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
OK. I figured it out part of it. The relative humidity changes as cold air is heated. Warmer air can hold more water, so the relative humidity drops. So that leads to the next question. Why do we use relative humidity. Is it because our bodies feel relative humidity not specific humidity
http://www.talk-hvac.com/forums
CORRECT
Refer to a psychrometric chart:
The relative humidity of a sample of air falls as its temperature increases. The air then "feels" drier because it has the capacity to absorb more moisture. The water originally in the sample of air doesn't go away.
It is called "relative" humidity because it refers to the percentage of total water capacity of the air at that temperature. i.e. 30% R.H. air can absorb a lot more water while 100% R.H. Air is saturated.
The reason cold glass condenses drops of water is that the air that comes in contact with it is chilled to a lower temperature. When it reaches a temperature at which the air is 100% R.H., drops form.
Absolute humidity is a valid measurement. It is simply weight of water per weight of air. It's useful information when you're calculating how much liquid will be removed in a dehumidification process.
I think the above link needs to be updated; it currently goes to a GoDaddy parking page. Is it supposed to be http://www.hvac-talk.com/vbb/ instead? Jeremy RBC 16:47, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

More Questions

What HVAC software is that?

Could anyone enlighten me as to which software belongs this screenshot? The one in the caption...

Sorry if it's off topic, I'm just curious. --Clapaucius* 22:50, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

I was in an HVAC Course at N.A.I.T and we used a program like that it was called SIMUTECH it simulates things that could go wrong and what will go wrong if certain things happen to your system. It is a good training program.

Another simple question

Is it possible to keep a very large room (L100m x W60m x H4m) comfortable for humans without removing water vapor from the air, when the very large room is in a country that has a temperate climate such as the UK or Northern Europe ? Teeteetee 19:58, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Well in the country you will get probably more moist air and you would probably have a higher humidity. So a Room L100m x W60m x H4m you should be able to keep comfortable very easy. You would just need a humidifyer for the winter time and a De-Humidifyer for the summer. you would also need probable in batween 20-30 diffusers for your system in this room but you can defenatly keep it comfertable

Umm... surely "a De-Humidifyer for the summer" is removing water ?? Teeteetee 04:12, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
Short Answer: No. You always need to exhaust what people breath out. That means the vapour is going out of the room. Sure, you could design a system to recover exhaust water vapour and return it to the supply air to the room, or add Humidification. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.112.72.218 (talk • contribs) .

it is such a big room, the use is going to be for a bunch of people, from time to time, This is no residential application. Need a full-blown system, to handle air, to manage air, including heat and humidity/

Incorrect equation in Natural Ventilation section

The equation in the Natural Ventilation section was incorrect and I have now corrected it. It is disappointing, to say the least, that such a major error had occurred. We must learn to check and double-check equations before publishing them. - mbeychok 01:57, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Removal of the image at beginning of this article

I have removed the image because it had absolutely no relevance to the subject matter in this article and, to the best of my knowledge, it isn't even referred to in the article. How does something like this happen and why had it not been picked up by some administrator by now??- mbeychok 05:52, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

The admins are too busy giving Wiki timeouts to middle-school kids who add erudite social commentary to articles. Seriously, this sort of thing is strictly up to us, the editors. If you see something that needs work, be bold and fix it!
Atlant 16:23, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Removal of thermostat images

I am removing the two photo images of a Honeywell thermostat because they have very little connection to the context of this article. I think that they could perhaps be better used in Thermostat article. - mbeychok 16:05, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

I wondered the same thing. But you might have wanted to keep one image (the closed thermostat) because that round Honeywell thermostat is pretty much iconic of domestic HVAC, at least here in America.
Atlant 16:24, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
Atlant, if you can remember building a crystal radio set (on your user page), then you must be almost as old as I am. I still believe that the two photos served no useful purpose in HVAC, especially when there is an existing Thermostat article that might better use them. By the way, I live in California and our thermostat is rectangular .. so much for icons. :) - mbeychok 17:08, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
Atlant, if you can remember building a crystal radio set (on your user page), then you must be almost as old as I am.
Gee, thanks for reminding me! ;-) Does this fall under the proscriptions of WP:NPA? :-)
Obviously, I don't feel strongly about this thermostate image question or I would have edited one or the other back in. But in the interest of jazzing-up the page, we ought to come up with some image to put on the page. An air-handler, furnace, or photo of a big rooftop chiller would be an obvious choice.
Atlant 18:05, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Re edits by User:Sandstein on August 10, 2006

First of all, I wholeheartedly agree with you that HVAC has too much "how to" information

As for the photo image you added, would you mind if I altered it with two small labels: one label reading "Central vent duct" and one label reading "Typical outlet", both with arrows pointing to the respective items? Please let me know. - mbeychok 05:27, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I have no objection, and the photo licence allows such alteration. Although wouldn't it be easier just to describe this in the caption rather than to have to edit and re-upload the image? Sandstein 05:35, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
I really think labeling is simpler and requires much less verbiage ... so I will go ahead with it. Thanks for your cooperation. - mbeychok 06:41, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Nice picture -- Thanks! I've now "stolen" it over to the recently-created Duct (HVAC) article where it fits very nicely.
Atlant 12:37, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Recommend Exchange Section

Most new houses and buildings are very air tight, and the installation and use of air exchange systems for improving ventiliation while maintaining thermal efficiency has been on the rise since the mid-80s. Mugaliens

Yes, please be bold and add some references, noting that Wiki already has articles on heat recovery ventilation, superinsulation, and zero energy buildings.
Atlant 12:48, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Don't Add 'Spam' Links

I know it is tempting, but don't add 'spam' links to Web sites. FactsAndFigures 12:31, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Transwiki

This is in reply to the following request on my talk page:

On August 10th, you posted "how-to" tags in two sections of they HVAC article, suggesting that the might qualify for moving to Wiki Books. I would like to implement that but I don't know how to do so. How about explaining how that is done (in step-by-step detail) on the Talk:HVAC page? - mbeychok 23:39, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm not a Wikibooks user myself, so I can't provide a more detailed guide than what follows:

I hope this helps. Sandstein 05:12, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

As proposed by Sandstein on August 10th, I have transferred the two sections on residential ventilation to Wikibooks and included a prominent link to the pertinent Wikibook section. Accordingly, I also deleted the two {{Howto|date=November 2009}} links added by Sandstein. - mbeychok 02:43, 14 October 2006 (UTC)


Comfort

I think there should be a section added to the article on comfort. It comes up a couple of times in the ventilation section, but HVAC does not exist solely to keep people from freezing to death or dying of heat exhaustion. Comfort is a significant goal of all HVAC systems, and pretty much every non-budget system that is sold in the U.S. is bought as much for the comfort benefits as it is for the efficiency gains. Take a look at any equipment manufacturer's website; other than on the lowest-end systems, the features they discuss are always focused on comfort aspects, and often to a greater extent than health benefits. Not that wikipedia should focus on comfort because it is part of the marketing discussion, but this reflects what consumers are interested in.

Also, there's a big technical difference between entry-level systems and the higher-efficiency, comfort-driven systems. The latter systems are the ones that push technology development (R410a refrigerant, multiple- and variable-speed operation, advanced filtering/ventilation/IAQ, zoning, processor-driven thermostats, fuel cell, geothermal, etc). In fact, now that I look over it, it seems like the article could stand some overall reorganization. I know that this is a work-in-progress, and a large section was just moved over to wikibooks, but we should discuss this.

There is quite a bit of crossover between the different areas of HVAC (some examples: centralized heaters/coolers share the same air mover; ventilation works in tandem with the heater/cooler air filtration system; heat pumps suppliment heaters/coolers; efficiency rules are different between systems, but environmental impact is related to all). Perhaps it would be clearer if we broke this up into a history section, a energy use & ecological impact section, an air quality section, a new technology section, information about government and independent trade groups (ASHRAE, ACCA, ARI, RSES, HRAI, GAMA, NATE, EERE), and brief sections that cover (a list, perhaps?) of specific heating/cooling/ventilation technologies. Oh, and another thing...in trades, HVAC is increasingly looked at as HVAC/R, to include refrigeration in the discussion. After all, refrigeration is about air movement and climate control, so there is (again) overlap with the other HVAC disciplines.

I would just be bold and get crackin on this, but I don't want anyone to think I'm vandalizing, so let's discuss.

Jeremy RBC 14:38, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Jeremy, I agree with your proposed revisions and expansion with a few qualifications. One, please avoid adding any 'how to' material for homeowners or other building owners. Two, I disagree with changing the article title and content from HVAC to HVAC/R because Wikipedia already has a good many articles on refrigeration and I don't believe we need any more.
I see from your user page that you are quite new to Wikipedia. Whenever you revise/expand an article extensively, it is best to have first created a personal sandbox page, copy and paste the existing article's Edit page to your sandbox, and do all your work on it until you are satisfied with it ... which may take a number of hours or even days. Then go the existing article, delete the all of the Edit page, and copy and paste your revised page from your sandbox into the article's Edit page. Regards, - mbeychok 16:45, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Chilled water reversed return pipe line

please explain what is the main purpose and advantages of reversed return pipe in chilled water systems.and also please the chilled water expansion tank and how to design the tank.thanking you —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 217.17.254.129 (talk • contribs) .

With all due respect, if you are asking this question on Wikipedia, you are probably not qualified to design this system. But, for your future reference, a Reverse Return Piping System is designed so that the distance that water has to flow is equal in each and every engine (ie. Chiller or Boiler) in a Plant. That is my definition. You can draw your own conclusions on advantages. Expansion Tanks are sized according to the System pressures and volumes. You order them from the Manufacturer according to your specification. Please put your pencil down and step away from the drafting table. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.112.72.218 (talk • contribs) .

Cleanup underway

FYI -- I'm sorting, etc. the article to make it flow better. Also will be moving the detailed ventilation stuff to the ventilation and natural ventilation pages. FactsAndFigures 15:05, 28 October 2006 (UTC) (An ASHRAE guy)

Cleanup continuing. More photos would be nice additions 129.237.114.171 20:48, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

the Cleveland Spart5ans need hvac now

Who added this to the bottom of the page, and why? Seems like a prank to me? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.57.103.237 (talk • contribs).

Just your average nonsense Wikipedia vandalism. I've fixed it.
Atlant 22:39, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Delete External Links Section?

Looks like there are repeated problems with commercial links being added. Deleting the entire external links section (without embedding links elsewhere in the article) unfortunately would likely be the most effective method of reducing the added spam. What do you think? FactsAndFigures 12:31, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Second paragraph

The second paragraph sounds like a brochure more than an encyclopedia. Here it is, for your review:

"The HVAC industry is huge, worldwide, with career opportunities ranging from operation and maintenance, to system design and construction, to equipment manufacturing and sales, and to education and research. Annual sales are in the US$100's of billions. There are also hundreds of related local, national, and international professional, technical, trade, and labor organizations such as ASHRAE, SMACNA, ACCA, and AMCA, to name just a few, that support the industry and encourage high standards and achievement."

--198.203.175.175 17:51, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Are there more economic details of the HVAC industry? How many people are primarily employed in HVAC in the US? How many predominantly HVAC manufacturing and service employers are there? How many billions of dollars in products and services are sold per year? I think these figures, and links to major organizations, unions, and producers would add significantly to this article. 164.67.237.253 (talk) 23:42, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Page Edits

14:06, 22 April 2007 (UTC) I made some edits to the whole page to make each paragraph contain its own central idea or concept
 (some paragraphs ran together) I also added some definitions, and several paragraphs
 to entries to try to explain a few complex concepts a little more clearly and concisely. Johntindale

--johntindale 15:19, 8 May 2007 (UTC) I added definitions to complete the following from the To-do list: There where several terms in the "Major Terms" section that where not defined in the HVAC article, and that I could not find an article for elsewhere.

List of terms:

  1. once-through
  2. low-flow
  3. primary-secondary

I cannot create these articles because I do not what these terms mean.

Please either create articles for these terms, or define them within the HVAC article itself, and remove the links I created (instead of using links, just make the terms bold: once-through instead of once-through).

When you have completed this task, please remove this from the To-Do list.

What is the / Is there a technical definition of Fan Powered Box?

Is this just regional terminology for a fan coil unit, or is it a separate category of equipment? And if it's its own thing, how is it defined? This is (obviously) a question from someone not very familiar with the field. Great page, though. Very informative and not overly technical. This is why I love Wikipedia. 69.25.215.134 21:18, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

A fan powered box is simply a cabinet with a fan in it. Because there are so many applications in HVAC that use cabinet- mounted fans, sometimes generic terms are used to describe them all.johntindale (talk) 14:12, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

To me, a "fan powered box" is a kind of VAV box. See:
It is used to mix two air streams: one from an air handing unit, the other from a ceiling (or floor) plenum.
-Ac44ck (talk) 05:32, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Minor problem

The first paragraph of the heating section ends in an incomplete sentence. Please fix. --Cromwellt|talk|contribs 22:25, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

This issue has apparently been resolved.johntindale (talk) 14:35, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

"...Special refrigerants called Freon, a member of the CFC family."

Partially true. It should read as "special chemicals called refrigerants." Freon is a company name. Freon makes / made CFC's, HCFC's, HFC's etc. Refrigerants are bought and sold as R-(number) not F-(number). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.47.38.3 (talk) 20:02, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Aitch-vac?

I can see how this is trying to explain that some people pronounce it "H-vac," but as an American speaker of English, I can't see "aitch" being pronounced as "H." The dipthong "ai" might occasionally be pronounced like that (like in "pain",) but at the start of a word I can't see it as anything other than a long "I" sound. I suspect other English-speaking countries would read that in different ways, too.

Wouldn't it work to just say that it's also pronounced "H-Vac"? Or use the phonetic alphabet.192.174.37.50 (talk) 23:17, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

I also hear it pronounced "heevac" - Ac44ck (talk) 03:51, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

As a confirmation (UK) I regularly hear the pronunciation heevac (he-vac?)presumably using the "e" from "heating"--AndyCPrivate (talk) 08:44, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Re: HVAC Systems Design and Safety

In the 2008 Nanotech/Cleantech forum sponsored by the California Institute of Nanotechnology and the Cleantech Institute, a new type of HVAC system was unveiled by Blue Earth Energy Systems using liquid nitrogen as a coolant and combining a traditional system with a Rankine cycle turbine. The resulting system reportedly uses only 13% as much energy as a conventional HVAC chiller.[1]

This is nothing but advertising, and it certainly has nothing to do with the headline. And an internet search for "Blue Earth Energy Systems" turns up a webpage looking suspiciously like vaporware.--Komodon (talk) 05:24, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Name of article

I don't know if this has already been discussed (the Talk archive is red-linked), but I'm sure I'm not the only editor who has noted that using an initialism for the name of the article runs contrary to naming guidelines. And more importantly, I doubt if one reader in a thousand has any clue what HVAC stands for. No matter how familiar it is to people in the field, I'm sure that it's utterly meaningless to everybody else. So I strongly urge changing the name to Heating, ventilating, and air conditioning. I'm also going to be taking Category:HVAC to CFD to get it expanded to Category:Heating, ventilating, and air conditioning. Cgingold (talk) 14:16, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. The term HVAC is widely used, often in materials that are seen by people who are not "in the field." It is, in fact, more commonly used than the very long expansion "Heating, Ventilating and Air Conditioning" Those not in the field who do not know the term "HVAC" will be more likely to use "Heating" alone, or "Ventilating" along, etc.
Keep HVAC as the title and redirect the rest. Pzavon (talk) 00:10, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Hatnote

From this edit it appears that we need a couple of examples to confirm that "HVAC" can also stand for "High Voltage Alternating Current", so: [1] and [2]. Looks like a WP:IDONTKNOWIT problem. --Old Moonraker (talk) 15:16, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

I would not have thought of it as a problem as it is clear that the other meaning of the acronym can apply. The assertion of "never used" seems to me to be what requires a great deal of support. Then, too, the edit, which has been reverted, was inapproporiately placed and composed in a way to make me wonder about vandalism. Pzavon (talk) 02:10, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
I don't want the terms to be included in the article: it was only to justify the reversion because there wasn't room in the edit summary. Sorry for any ambiguity. --Old Moonraker (talk) 06:43, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

To-Do Lists for HVAC Article

Main To-Do List

If you have a suggestion of how someone with expert knowledge of HVAC systems could improve this article, put it here. This section is not the place for questions or comments, please put them in one of the other sections on this page, or make your own section. When an item on this list is completed, please move it to the "Completed To-Do Items List," if you think people could benefit from seeing it on the talk page, or just delete it completely.
Also, when creating a new thread- please start at the top of this page after the horizontal line, so that newest threads are always at the top. Posts prior to 2008 are now in the Talk:HVAC:Archive1 johntindale (talk) 13:53, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
This is akin to "top posting". There are religious wars over this issue. Note that such "top posting" is contrary to how the "new section" button behaves on talk pages. If one starts a new "thread" on a talk page by pressing the 'add section' button, the new section appears at the bottom of the talk page. The directive "when creating a new thread- please start at the top of this page after the horizontal line" is not consistent with the usual practice on Wikipedia talk pages. - Ac44ck (talk) 03:49, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
The correct address for the archive is Talk:HVAC/Archive 1 Jminthorne (talk) 23:53, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

More Page edits and cleanup

As you can see, There is an archive. Talk:HVAC:Archive1 This archive contains everything prior to 2007. The talk page was getting a little difficult to navigate. Second, I created an introduction for Energy Efficiency, and sorted the following paragraph so that it flowed with the order of the main page. johntindale (talk) 14:42, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

The correct address for the archive is Talk:HVAC/Archive 1 Jminthorne (talk) 23:53, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Update

It looks like it has been a while since anyone has addressed some of the issues and suggestions made in this talk section, so maybe we should clean it up a bit? I suggest creating a "talk archive" at the bottom of this page, and move some sections to it such as; questions and answers, completed to-do items, and other items that inhibit flow and are valid, but tend to clutter the page. I'll wait for suggestions, and begin moving some things gradually depending on input from other participants. --johntindale (talk) 22:10, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

How about simply archiving the stuff? Pzavon (talk) 15:03, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

That's a good idea #REDIRECT Talk:HVAC:Archive1 johntindale (talk) 13:38, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Suggest removing link

The link to

http://www.computrols.com/formulas

under "HVAC Formulas" in the "External links" section seems of questionable value to me.

The "Air Handling Unit Tonnage Output" section on that page is especially disappointing. The legend says TONNS = Dewpoint temperature in degrees F — not air-conditioning tons (12,000 btu/ton-hr). And the formula is for only sensible heat, not total (sensible + latent) heat.

The "Chiller Tonnage Output" section provides no units for "Energy output of the chiller".

The COP item in the "Chiller Coefficient of Performance" appears to be the result of copy-and-paste without adequate proofreading in that the legend says COP = Energy output of the chiller.

The signal-to-noise ratio on that page seems too low at this point to be the target of a link from an encyclopedia.

Is there a good reason to retain the link to http://www.computrols.com/formulas ? -Ac44ck (talk) 20:48, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

It looks like this has been removed. Jminthorne (talk) 23:12, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Move

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
The result was to not merge into air conditioning

I suggest simply merging this page with air conditioning. Air conditioning is already refers to dehumidifcation, heating and cooling of buildings. The term is thus very strange, unreferenced and no one will find this article when they search for it. -- KVDP (talk) 11:51, 16 August 2009

Strongly disagree. AC is only one part of Heating, Ventilation and Air Concitioning. In your country HVAC systems may in essence be the same as HVAC, but in the latitudes where I live (Denmark), HVAC systems provide mainly heating. If anything, Air Conditioning should be merged into the HVAC article as a subsection, but I really do not favor any merging here. Can we loose this bogous merge tag in the article soon, please? --Claus Hindsgaul (talk) 12:06, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
Disagree. The Air Conditioning article clearly has different scope than this article. We should probably leave the tag up for at least a week to allow time for consensus, though. Jminthorne (talk) 01:47, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Re-directs to this article

heating, ventilation, and air conditioning needs to redirect to this article, because we are not all lazy about our commas. Likewise, Heating, Ventilation, and Air Conditioning needs to redirect here. 98.67.160.118 (talk) 13:57, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Done. (By the way, if you log in, you can create redirects yourself!) Melchoir (talk) 01:45, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Introduction Length

The introduction to this article is long and hard to follow. At many resolutions even the top of the table of contents won't be visible when the page loads. Can we edit this down to a single introductory paragraph? Jminthorne (talk) 01:49, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

I rewrote the intro and moved some of the material into new "Background" and "History" sections. Jminthorne (talk) 07:13, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

The second paragraph is too detailed for introduction. The importance of HVAC should be detaily explained in the body rather than a summarised paragraph in introduction. Maviozan (talk) 13:43, 4 May 2010

Split HVAC terms into a list article?

What do people think of splitting the "HVAC terms" section into a separate list article? It is unlikely it will ever be converted into prose, and in my opinion breaks up the article a lot in its current format. Of course any of the terms actually used in the article should be wikilinked so that will help the reader with unfamiliar words. Thoughts? Jminthorne (talk) 02:10, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

I have started a draft list article at User:Jminthorne/DRAFT Glossary of HVAC terms. Jminthorne (talk) 03:37, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
Done. The new page is Glossary of HVAC Jminthorne (talk) 03:54, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Archival

Hope I'm not being too verbose, but one more thought. Can we start an auto-archive on this talk page? I find it a little hard to navigate and I generally like having old topics moved out of sight. I'll start an archive bot in a few days unless there is an objection. Jminthorne (talk) 02:18, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Added an archival bot. Jminthorne (talk) 23:06, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

To do list

In the spirit of johntindale's earlier efforts, I've added a to do template to the page. Jminthorne (talk) 23:31, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

If anyone disagrees with the items I have added to the to-do list, please strike them through and open a discussion section so I know my suggestions do not reflect consensus. Thanks! Jminthorne (talk) 02:52, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
  • n.b. I've removed the list, which had no longer had active items. Feel free to restore it as necessary. --BDD (talk) 22:07, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Header Tags

I removed the unreferenced tag since this article clearly has references. However, we also need more citations, so I added an article issues tag with some of the comments I've raised here. Jminthorne (talk) 01:22, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

What About Global Climate Control?

I typed in Climate Control thinking about the global climate and wanting to know what scientists have figured out and what measures are being taken to develop human control of the Earth's climate and it redirected here. Is there an article that covers what I was looking for? If yes then there should be a disambiguation page.68.84.184.56 (talk) 00:33, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Try Climate change mitigation. --Old Moonraker (talk) 06:21, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no consensus. --BDD (talk) 22:05, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

HVAC → Heating, ventilation and air conditioning – Per WP:TITLEFORMAT. --Relisted. Red Slash 17:33, 18 May 2013 (UTC) Beagel (talk) 17:10, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Several below have commented that HVAC is not well known outside the industry, but that misses a few of points.
HVAC strikes me as more than the sum of its parts. In the section above, HVAC isn't so much the individual parts but putting the pieces together into a whole system. The spelled out name misleads. The article's lead is overlong, but it primarily addresses buildings, and it states that HVAC roles involve "operation and maintenance, system design and construction, equipment manufacturing and sales".
A reader is going to look up HVAC (or the spelled out version) because he's been exposed to the industry. The average reader isn't going to think of "ventilation" when wondering about how his office building is heated or air conditioned. At work, if one is exposed to even just a little of the building's physical plant, then he is going to hear or see HVAC. I'll grant you that a normal reader, when confronted with a bare HVAC link, would have to click it to understand it; a spelled out link might be more informative, but even hat notes have spelled out descriptions. (NATO doesn't give the naive a clue, either.)
Using the spelled out title would be adopting a name seldom used within the industry and seldom used without.
Google hits don't mean a damn thing, but here are the wet spaghetti counts: "Heating ventilation and air conditioning" gets 2M hits; "HVAC" 91M hits; "North Atlantic Treaty Organization" 3M hits; "NATO" 191M hits.
Glrx (talk) 18:35, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose: HVAC is the most common name. -Zanhe (talk) 08:34, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
I fully agree that HVAC is well known in the industry; however, I disagree that the term is well known outside of the industry. However, we are writing articles for common readers not for experts knowing technical jargon. I have some doubts if an average reader of Wikipedia knows the term and therefore the NATO example is not valid here. Beagel (talk) 12:53, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Support per WP:JARGON, and per the "spell out acronyms whenever possible" consensus. WP:OTHERSTUFF comparison to NATO doesn't work as this is not nearly as widely known as NATO. - The Bushranger One ping only 14:56, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose it's almost always called HVAC. Hot Stop 18:08, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
  • An alternative: There is redirect page from "Heating, ventilation and air conditioning" to here, so I think the common name HVAC for the article is fine. However, I think it would be best to this shorter, very general article that references main articles for each of the three subtopics. That way the "Air conditioning" article is OK. However, on the heating end of things it is presently messy. "Space heating" is a redirect to "Space heater," which is about small electric heaters. "Ventilation" is a diambiguation page, and could include a redirect to a new main article, "Ventilation (HVAC)". (At present there is only a See Also this HVAC article from there.) There also are many space heating related articles concerning for example solar heat, passive solar heat, district heating, district cooling, free cooling, etc. It should be possible to pull all this heating, cooling and ventilating stuff stuff together here in a generalized but comprehensive guide to the full extent of these wide-ranging topics. Coastwise (talk) 01:41, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Support – though widely used, the acronym HVAC is still not understood or known to a majority of people who have never dealt with such things; spelling it out makes the title meaningful. Though I'd make it Heating, ventilation, and air conditioning with the Oxford comma. Dicklyon (talk) 06:14, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Support – HVAC is widely-recognized jargon within the industry, but is not as widely known to the general readership Wikipedia is supposed to address. WP:NAMINGCRITERIA says that "The choice of article titles should put the interests of readers before those of editors, and those of a general audience before those of specialists". HVAC should be defined as a redirect to the main article, "Heating, ventilation, and air conditioning". Also, I support the Oxford comma here, for clarity. Note that we shouldn't insist on using the fully spelled-out name instead of HVAC wherever it appears, since the acronym is much less unwieldy. For example, the Massachusetts Institute of Technology is the main article, but the acronym MIT is freely used once it has been introduced as an alternative name.
Also, the proposal by User:Coastwise has a lot of merit, and would bring badly-needed structure to the bunch of poorly-coordinated articles loosely clustered around HVAC topics. This would be a bit of work, but would result in a great improvement to the coverage and usefulness of these subjects. Perhaps somebody could organize this proposal into a Wikipedia project? Reify-tech (talk) 17:46, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
  • I am undecided on this one. HVAC is my industry so I might have a skewed view, but laypeople I know still are familiar with this acronym. As such I think it is more like NATO or USB than the ambiguous acronyms targeted by WP:TITLEFORMAT. I do not know, however, if HVAC is an adequately global word. Are English speaking, non-North American people equally likely to be familiar with this term? VQuakr (talk) 17:58, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose. This is the common term in use. While 'Heating, ventilation, and air conditioning' can also be used, I suspect that it just as foreign and confusing to the average person. As pointed out above the redirect here works and I see no reason to change. Vegaswikian (talk) 21:25, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
  • Support. To have a title that everybody can understand. Lientinge (talk) 06:27, 4 June 2013 (UTC).
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Do we need two articles?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
The result of this discussion was no consensus. Closing after a month of no discussion. —Mikemoral♪♫ 05:28, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

Do we need two articles - HVAC and Air conditioning? Biscuittin (talk) 19:04, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

  • Support merging. Beagel (talk) 17:22, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Support (Conditionally) — The proposed merger makes sense logically, but is going to be a lot of work, and should not be initiated without a commitment and a clear plan to do it properly. The combined material is likely to be quite lengthy, even after trimming duplication of content. Careful reorganization is needed to avoid losing useful material. Some sections, such as "History" probably should be spun off as separate articles. I support a merger, only on condition that a clear plan for reorganization is discussed and agreed upon in advance. Reify-tech (talk) 19:23, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
I see that both a merger and a renaming have been proposed, causing some confusion. I think the renaming is relatively easy and non-controversial, and support doing it as proposed. Reify-tech (talk) 19:34, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose. HVAC uses heaters and air conditioning to accomplish a task, but HVAC need not be an all-encompassing article. Both articles are reasonably sized. Air conditioning should be about the refrigeration aspects (and perhaps humidity control). There's an air conditioner in my car (and a heater and some ducts), but I don't consider that application to be HVAC. HVAC to me is peculiar to buildings, but even then I don't consider a room air conditioner that gets crammed in a window to be HVAC. HVAC engineers may use furnaces, steam, heaters, chillers, and condensers, but they use them more as building blocks. Let there be separate articles about those blocks that can explain their history and technology. Glrx (talk) 22:45, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Don't merge - do you folks know what a sub-category is? HVAC is the broad category, A/C is a subcategory. HVAC includes heating, A/C never does. Air conditioning as an article should be limited to cooling systems only, while HVAC would cover the whole thing. You're proposal is kinda like merging California into United States. Ego White Tray (talk) 17:02, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose merge as discussed above, these are different topics. Cleanup of the organization and delineation between the two is both needed and welcomed, though. VQuakr (talk) 18:01, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

vav

If a VAV is to produce 1135cfm. at a given room temperature

and is only producing 968cfm. at the same given room temperature as the above 1135cfm,

using a rule of thumb, approximate how may square feet are we not cooling within a this given space at the same given temperature — Preceding unsigned comment added by 164.58.115.36 (talk) 20:40, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

HVAC is NOT widely known to non-American English speakers

It should be spelled out in the main title, after which the abbreviation can be used. There is no need whatsoever for the Oxford comma, as no confusion could conceivably result. A merge is an excellent idea - currently it's all very bitty and unhelpful to the general reader. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.68.94.86 (talk) 09:08, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Heat load

Could someone discuss the term heat load (heating load). Jim Derby (talk) 12:58, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Heat load is a calculation based upon the size of a room and the size of the air conditioner needed to control the temperature in that space. The term heat load identifies the amount of heat that must be displaced with cool air from a room in a given period of time to meet the user's needs. Calculations are required in each space, as all spaces are different in size and thermal properties. The calculations may be done using software or done manually by any licensed and experienced HVAC technician. Pete Pharris of Above All Heating and Air Conditioning, Proper Heat Load Calculations — Preceding unsigned comment added by Laramp (talk • contribs) 01:02, 28 August 2015

General cleanup

Since this article is only listed as class C (but of medium to high importance), I did my best to turn the wall of text into (hopefully) clear sections and paragraphs. I removed only very little text, mostly I just re-ordered the existing paragraphs. Noggo (talk) 20:58, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

Ok, I went through the article again, but there's still lots to do. Since there is much overlapping/redundant information, I started to carefully take bits and pieces out and moved them to other articles, if they didn't already exist there. In general, a short explanation should remain here (to provide the whole picture), but not every last little detail needs to be explained in this article. IMHO, that's what the other articles (e.g. refrigeration cycle, heat pump, etc.) are for. The difficult thing of course is to know how much can be taken away safely. Noggo (talk) 16:39, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

I think you're on the right track. This article should be an overall survey, with brief summaries and Wikilinks to more-detailed coverage in other articles. I am on the verge of releasing an HVAC info-bar template, which should help readers and editors locate the many articles related to this subject. There will be a lot of cleanup work to reduce unnecessary overlaps in coverage, and to fill gaps that will become more apparent. Reify-tech (talk) 18:00, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

New Template:HVAC

I have just released a new Template:HVAC, and added it to the bottom of the HVAC article. The template's purpose is to provide an overview of all Wikipedia articles related to the subject, and to allow quick navigation among them. Another purpose is to make it easier to see all the HVAC-related articles, so that they can be reorganized, coordinated, and improved. Please look at the template and (politely) let me know what you think, before I roll it out more generally to all the articles listed in it.

As you review the articles, you may notice that some of them partially overlap or appear to be redundant (for example, Forced-air gas and Heating system). Part of the purpose of this template is to reveal these overlaps (and also gaps in coverage). Do not remove apparently-redundant articles from this template. Instead, tag the articles themselves for merge or deletion, as appropriate. Only after the changes are complete should you remove the now-obsolete articles from the template.

This is only a first draft version of the template, so please feel free to add to the template any HVAC articles I somehow missed. The subcategories in the template are also a first try, and ideas for improvement are welcome.

Further discussion should be at Template talk:HVAC, so I will copy a version of this message over there. In the absence of a WP:WIKIPROJECT for HVAC, I suggest using that new Talk page as a place to discuss the overall cleanup efforts. Reify-tech (talk) 21:18, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

External links modified

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Definition "Geothermal heat pump"

The section "Geothermal heat pump" currently has a box "confusing or unclear" attached to it. However, in the article Geothermal heat pump#Differing terms and definitions the term is explained. Is the information there correct? If so, we could remove the box here. Noggo (talk) 14:01, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

The text in the section didn't seem at all confused, but the term is admittedly ambiguous. I changed it to "ground source heat pump", a synonym that per Ghits is about equally common and is less ambiguous with geothermal power. VQuakr (talk) 18:41, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 18 September 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Those opposing have provided strong, policy-based arguments against moving the page. Calidum ¤ 22:57, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

– Complete name, common and much easier tu understand than the abbreviation (jargon). Geny S. Soboes (talk) 18:24, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

  • Oppose per WP:CONCISE. HVAC is an extremely common initialism; not really jargon. Per WP:NAMINGCRITERIA, our guideline for recognizability is "The title is a name or description of the subject that someone familiar with, although not necessarily an expert in, the subject area will recognize." I think we hit that target with the current title. We already use redirects to assist with navigation. VQuakr (talk) 18:43, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
Meatsgains - What is "RS"? EuroSong talk 18:40, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Support - I've never heard of "HVAC": is it an obscure term only used by people actually working in the air conditioning industry? It's not a commonly-recognised term. Wikipedia is for everyone, not just specialists in particular subjects. Contrary to what a couple of people said above, it is NOT common. Or maybe it only is common in the USA?? There's another thread above which mentions this. However Wikipedia is an international encyclopædia, not just an American one. We should use article titles which make sense to everyone, not just people in one country. As it is, the title is totally obscure. EuroSong talk 18:38, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
Are you familiar with the topic? My automatic response is to say that if you've never heard the acronym then you're not familiar with the topic, but that is admittedly circular. VQuakr (talk) 20:46, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
HVAC is common in North America with people familiar with the topic and many English speakers there would be familiar only with the acronym/initialism (it is read both /ˈeɪtʃvæk/ and /ˈeɪtʃˈviːˈeɪˈsiː/). As far as ENGVAR goes, this is a topic with strong national ties as most other English-speaking countries outside of North America avoid air circulation and air conditioning beyond a limited aesthetic amount or do not use heating. —  AjaxSmack  13:53, 22 September 2016 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
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