Talk:Harlan Crow

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Justice Clarence Thomas’s megadonor friend collects Hitler memorabilia – report[edit]

"Harlan Crow, closely linked to judge, has a signed copy of Mein Kampf and dictator’s paintings."

"Harlan Crow also reportedly has a garden full of dictator statues."

Some sources. 72.14.126.22 (talk) 17:02, 9 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It's notable, but doesn't belong in the lead. Normally someone's hobbies and collections don't go there unless that's their main reason for notability. 2607:FEA8:1CC0:2850:A049:9E7A:BD05:1390 (talk) 17:28, 9 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. The implications of putting this in the article’s lede are a serious POV issue. 2601:3C1:C100:600:39EC:B6C7:CE45:84D5 (talk) 01:54, 10 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Two random IP addresses visit the talk page of a billionaire who was barely known until he made news this week for collecting Nazi memorabilia and they're defending him? I smell a rat. Or maybe some meat, mixed with some puppets. Who knows. Either way, I'm going to add that fact back into the lead, as that's what this guy is certainly known for right now (just check his Google News hits). If an established editor disagrees with me, I'll be happy to discuss it here. Fred Zepelin (talk) 18:47, 10 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Here's a small sampling of reliable sources: Fred Zepelin (talk) 19:10, 10 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The Manual of Style for lead sections stresses that we must "not violate WP:Neutral point of view by giving undue attention to less important controversies in the lead section", "avoiding subjective or contentious terms", and "[r]ecent events affecting a subject are kept in historical perspective; most recent is not necessarily most notable."
That's not to say controversies can never be mentioned, but it seems inaccurate to list it as one of his main occupations. I doubt this will remain in the news for long, clearly he was already considered fairly notable before the current news cycle (there are an enormous number of news articles on him from before the last 1-2 months; he's a major Republican donor and billionaire!), and this isn't the only aspect of the current controversy (why not "close associate of Clarence Thomas"?); so it seems very unlikely to me that this qualifies.
(If it does qualify, it should clearly be in a separate sentence; the current phrasing is just misleading.)
-MugaSofer (talk) 19:47, 10 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think it belongs in the lead but not the first sentence. I'd recommend adding some content in the lead to summarize the recent Clarence Thomas controversy, and to note as part of it that Crow's collection of Nazi memorabilia is part of the issue. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 20:59, 10 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I am okay with the lead as you rewrote it. I just put in a paragraph break because the change in topics between the sentences where I put the break was significant. Fred Zepelin (talk) 14:01, 12 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'd be ok with Tamzin's lead version, with "Crow became the subject of controversy in 2023 relating to his gifts to Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas." It is possible to read the language I added as implying that Crow is alleged to have violated ethics law. Can we switch to Tamzin's version while we figure the best way to cover the allegations against Thomas? I am not looking to make this article a coat-rack, but a key element of Crow's notability is now the hot water his gifts have put Thomas in. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 22:26, 12 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I have reverted Fred Zeppelin for reasons explained at length here. The content in question contains at least two misrepresentations of sources and multiple other errors, all with serious BLP implications. Anyone inclined to restore it should be prepared to justify that decision to an uninvolved admin at AN/I or AE. I'd strongly encourage Fred Zeppelin to step away from this article and give way to editors more competent on the difficult topic area of politically sensitive BLPs. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she|they|xe) 23:49, 12 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Firefangledfeathers' assertion that "a key element of Crow's notability is now the hot water his gifts have put Thomas in", and additionally, an offshoot of that story is the (re)surfacing of factual reports, from many reliable sources, that Crow is a collector of Nazi memorabilia, including paintings by Hitler and a signed copy of Mein Kampf. His notability was minor before last week, and now there's stories about him everywhere - they all deal with the Clarence Thomas gifts and the penchant for Nazi paraphernalia. Fred Zepelin (talk) 00:44, 13 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Mr Ernie removed the content in question per WP:LEDE as a matter of proportionality. I'd say the issue is actually a bit greater than that. There is not currently any content in the body of the article that verifies that the Nazi memorabilia collection is controversial. It is, of course, but you don't just get to say that without a source. Add relevant, well-sourced content to the body; then we can sort out how to summarize that in the lede. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she|they|xe) 01:42, 13 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
None of these are reliable sources strong enough to make the claim you want (Rolling Stone is red, Business Insider, Democracy Now, and Media Matters are all yellow sources at WP:RSP, and The Wrap by way of Yahoo is not RS). The Atlantic, by contrast, is a high quality source that adds proper nuance to the topic, instead of the clickbait headlines linked above. Mr Ernie (talk) 20:32, 12 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Surely you are aware that a quick search of Google News with "Harlan Crow" would yield a multitude of reliable sources. I only listed the first few I found without looking for any one source in particular. There are at least a dozen more that report the same thing, including the Fort Worth Star Telegram. Fred Zepelin (talk) 21:56, 12 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
To Mr. Ernie, I will post again this:
"Harlan Crow, closely linked to judge, has a signed copy of Mein Kampf and dictator’s paintings."
"Harlan Crow also reportedly has a garden full of dictator statues."
Good sources to be added. 72.14.126.22 (talk) 04:06, 13 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Half those "reliable sources" are far-left partisan sites. And the most recent (manufactured) controversy doesn't get undue weight, per the Manual of Style. 2607:FEA8:1E5D:B700:2585:99F8:A65F:92CB (talk) 02:17, 11 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your input, Mr. Crow. Fred Zepelin (talk) 14:01, 12 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
To be fair these sources aren't great. Rolling Stone, MediaMatters, and Democracy Now! are all under question via Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources. ― TaltosKieronTalk 19:31, 16 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Since you asked for one, I'm an established editor (since 2007), and yes indeed a throw-away parenthetical along the lines of "has collections of Nazi memorabilia" has no place in the lead.
Firstly, the "Art and Memorabilia collections" section gives clarification from the subject themselves that explains his collections: simply saying "has Nazi memorabilia" suggests that the subject is a Nazi, not that they collect things by dictators because they hate them. Failure to include this clarification in the lead is misleading, and things that require clarification do not go in the lead.
Secondly, "Nazi memorabilia" itself is defined in its article as items produced during the height of Nazism in Germany: this applies to the signed copy of Mein Kampf, but not to paintings made by Adolf Hitler. Considering Crow also has paintings by non-Nazis (e.g. Churchill), this makes the statement about Nazi memorabilia even more misleading. No place in the lead for this. The "Art and Memorabilia collections" section is sufficient. AllGloryToTheHypnotoad (talk) 18:37, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The collection includes Nazi memorabilia, that fact has been reported in numerous reliable sources, and it's controversial enough and gained enough attention to merit a mention in the lead. Crow isn't notable for very much, and a large percentage of the recent coverage on him mentions "Nazi memorabilia". No reason to disinclude it. Fred Zepelin (talk) 01:15, 12 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This article states that Crow served as president of Whyndam Hotels Company, but the citation offered does not make any mention of Whyndam hotels. Indeed the Whyndam Hotels Company appears to not have been created until 1990, as a spin off of another company, years after the period during which Crow is reported to have worked there. Bmarkey17 (talk) 01:37, 18 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This information can be found on Wikipedia's page titled "Wyndham Resorts and Hotels, with link to the page titled "Cendant": Wyndham Hotels and Resorts was a company founded by his father, Trammel Crow, in 1981. It appears the company you are referring to is Hospitality Franchise Systems, Inc. (HFS), created in 1990. "HFS and CUC combined in a "merger of equals" on December 18, 1997, to form Cendant Corporation...In October 2005, the company bought the Wyndham hotel brand from Blackstone for $111 million." (See Wikipedia article "Cendant"). You are correct that the Wikipedia page "Trammel Crow" doesn't mention anything specific regarding his ownership of Wyndham Hotels. The "Wyndham Hotels" page does, but the 2009 article is old enough the link is dead. It would take some work to verify the information. This article isn't verifiable so take it for what it's worth: https://sports.yahoo.com/wyndham-hotels-resorts-explained-070004371.html#:~:text=The%20company%20was%20founded%20in,hospitality%20giants%20around%20the%20world.As for bias, really is a shame any media outlet can't rise to the level of The Chicago Manual of Style anymore. I certainly share your concern. Mscurran (talk) 21:45, 29 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Career History - President of Whyndam Hotels[edit]

This article states that Crow served as president of Whyndam Hotels Company, but the citation offered does not make any mention of Whyndam hotels. Indeed the Whyndam Hotels Company, or at least the iteration of the company linked in this article, appears to not have been created until 1990, as a spin off of another company, years after the period during which Crow is reported to have worked there Bmarkey17 (talk) 01:39, 18 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Crow paid for private school for a relative Thomas said he was raising “as a son”[edit]

New ProPublica article:

https://www.propublica.org/article/clarence-thomas-harlan-crow-private-school-tuition-scotus

In 2008, Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas decided to send his teenage grandnephew to Hidden Lake Academy, a private boarding school in the foothills of northern Georgia. The boy, Mark Martin ... had lived with the justice and his wife in the suburbs of Washington, D.C. Thomas had taken legal custody of Martin when he was 6 years old and had recently told an interviewer he was “raising him as a son.”

Tuition at the boarding school ran more than $6,000 a month. But Thomas did not cover the bill. A bank statement for the school from July 2009, buried in unrelated court filings, shows the source of Martin’s tuition payment for that month: the company of billionaire real estate magnate Harlan Crow.

The payments extended beyond that month, according to Christopher Grimwood, a former administrator at the school. Crow paid Martin’s tuition the entire time he was a student there, which was about a year, Grimwood told ProPublica.

Crow also paid for a second boarding school. If he paid for all four years at the two schools, the price tag could have exceeded $150,000, according to public records of tuition rates at the schools. And Thomas has never reported these tuition payments for his family member or made related financial disclosures. 72.14.126.22 (talk) 15:28, 4 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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