Talk:Hamilton McWhorter III

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DYK[edit]

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 19:00, 29 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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[[File:|140px|Medal recognizing U.S. fighter aces ]]
Medal recognizing U.S. fighter aces
  • ... that Hamilton McWhorter III was the first U.S. Navy carrier pilot to achieve double ace status? Sources: here there and there And this WP:RS Dorr, Robert F. (21 October 2019). "Sharp Shooting Hellcat "Mac" McWhorter Runs Up the Score" (PDF). Flight Journal. p. 16. Retrieved 22 July 2020.
    • ALT1:... that Hamilton McWhorter III, the first U.S. Navy carrier pilot to achieve double ace status, was awarded a Congressional Gold Medal (pictured)? Source: "You are strongly encouraged to quote the source text supporting each hook" (and [link] the source, or cite it briefly without using citation templates)

Created by Kges1901 (talk), Danimal57 (talk), Lightburst (talk), AustralianRupert (talk), Andrew Davidson (talk), and 7&6=thirteen (talk). Nominated by 7&6=thirteen (☎) 00:25, 24 July 2020 (UTC).[reply]

  • Comment I don't want to be the bad guy here, but I am not at all sure about the reliability of any of the three web sources used for the primary hook, there is no source given for ALT1, but a check of the article indicates it is drawn from two sources, the first is one of the three from the primary hook and the second source (for the Gold Medal) is OK (Congressional records). Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:04, 24 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Reply "Double ace" Dorr, Robert F. (21 October 2019). "Sharp Shooting Hellcat "Mac" McWhorter Runs Up the Score" (PDF). Flight Journal. p. 16. Retrieved 22 July 2020. and "awarded the American Fighter Aces Congressional Gold Medal May 23, 2014." 113th Congress. "H.R.685 – American Fighter Aces Congressional Gold Medal Act". Congress.gov. Library of Congress. Retrieved 22 July 2020.{{cite web}}: CS1 maint: numeric names: authors list (link) That solves your issue. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 11:02, 24 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
We do need a reviewer. User:Peacemaker67 says he was only commenting, not reviewing. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 14:11, 24 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment He gets his 12 kills published in newspaper 1953, Jacksonville Jax Air News December 3, 1953 "McWhorter Given Command Of VF-I2 Ldr Hamilton McWhorter III, assumed command... McWhorter is a WWII Ace with 12 enemy planes to his credit. Hook. It is well described in the article. There is a description of his 8,9,10 to get to double ace.
Additional double ace ref - Air Force Journal of Logistics, Volumes 16-18: Contributors Air Force Logistics Management Center, United States. Air Force Logistics Management Agency P28, says this... "Navy Commander Hamilton McWhorter III, the first Naval carrier Ace in WWII who later became a double ace. Lightburst (talk) 01:24, 25 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed, the plaque at the Georgia Aviation Hall of Fame (which is reproduced in the article) recites that fact. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 14:25, 25 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Butch O'Hare is commonly credited as the first USN carrier ace, so the AF Journal of Logistics article is essentially tertiary. But as now established in the article, McWhorter is commonly credited as the first Hellcat ace and USN carrier double ace, so the hook should mention that or even both. The Congressional Gold Medal award does not individually distinguish McWhorter and is reflective of the esteem in which WWII vets are currently held (all Tuskegee Airmen also received the award, an example of the numerous recent WWII vet group presentations), so ALT1 does not need to mention it. Kges1901 (talk) 15:43, 25 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
All true. Other than the fact that McWhorter's picture is on the medal. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 16:06, 25 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Do you have a source for McWhorter being depicted? Smithsonian's description of the medal does not name specific models for the figures. Kges1901 (talk) 16:31, 25 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Other than the obvious similarity of the two sculptures on the article page (the medal and the Georgia Hall of Fame plaque), and the fact that the upper right is described in the literature as a "Navy pilot." I've sent you an e-mail with what my research has uncovered. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 16:59, 25 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That is original research, we need a reliable secondary source that says it is McWhorter on the CGM. For DYK I suggest the following hook:

... that US Navy Commander Hamilton McWhorter III was the first Grumman F6F Hellcat pilot to achieve double ace status?

This can be cited to Dorr p. 16 and Stout p. 77, using exact page numbers, not ranges as it is now. I have edited the article lead. Dorr failed verification for what it was citing, as he says (only in a photo caption on p. 16) "the first Hellcat double ace" not "the first Navy carrier pilot to achieve double ace status" the two are not equivalent. The AFLJ says "the first naval carrier ace in WWII who later became a double ace", again not what was being cited. Stout (p. 77) says he "became the first Hellcat pilot to reach the double ace mark". Again, fails verification for the statement "the first Navy carrier pilot to achieve double ace status". I have adjusted the article to reflect the two claims that have been verified, 1) that he was the "first United States Navy carrier aviator to become an ace", cited to the AFLJ, and 2) the first Hellcat double ace (now correctly cited to Stout and Dorr in the article). The sources are not of the highest quality, but they seem ok. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:13, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The AFLJ article appears to be incorrect as the 'first naval carrier ace' overall claim is not supported by any other source. Butch O'Hare is often credited as the first USN ace from long before McWhorter entered combat. (See for example, Ewing and Lundstrom, Fateful Rendezvous, p. 142) This is a significant claim and if true would be repeated elsewhere, but it is not, so it can be dismissed as an error by the AFLJ which is not an in-depth source. As for what can be supported: for example, Hammel in Aces Against Japan p. 129 says 'first carrier-based double ace of the war', Mersky's review in Naval Aviation News says 'first F6F ace and first F6F double ace, and Tillman in his U.S. Navy Fighter Squadrons in World War II, p. 33 says "not only the first F6F ace , but the first F6F double ace." The first USN carrier-based double ace claim is supported by Tillman 1979, p. 60: From this brief scrap, Ham McWhorter, with ten victories, temporarily emerged as the top scorer among carrier fighter pilots.. It is also repeated in Sears, Pacific Air and Cleaver, Pacific Thunder, p. 127. From this it can be stated that McWhorter was the first Hellcat ace, first Hellcat double ace, and first USN carrier-based double ace. The 'carrier-based' qualifier is needed because Ira C. Kepford was a Navy pilot who had reached double ace status a few weeks before McWhorter but Kepford flew land-based F4U Corsairs. (Tillman, U.S. Navy Fighter Squadrons, p. 128) Kges1901 (talk) 12:54, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Kges1901, Danimal57, Lightburst, AustralianRupert, Andrew Davidson, and Peacemaker67: folks, it has been over two and a half weeks since a comment...what's going on here? Flibirigit (talk) 03:50, 14 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • G'day, I only did some minor copy editing on the article -- I don't have the ability at this time to help with any other issues, I'm sorry. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 08:42, 14 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • There has been that much dodgy citing (as explained above and evident from the article history), I wouldn't touch this with a bargepole. Anyone looking at this needs to examine every single citation in the article and verify it actually says what the article says. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:49, 14 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • What we're needing is a proper structured review with action points. If no-one else does one, then I'll do it myself to create some order from this chaos. Andrew🐉(talk) 09:21, 14 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • This poor nomination needs a review. Though a bit of a mess to witness, I'll go through this bit by bit. VincentLUFan (talk) (Kenton!) 13:27, 25 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Copyvios picked up a false positive so no issues on that. New enough and long enough. VincentLUFan (talk) (Kenton!) 15:59, 25 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the Early life and education section, the two sources gave conflicting information when he had his first flight. One stated it was his uncle who brought him on a ride at 8, while the other states he first flew at 9. This needs to be fixed or clarified. VincentLUFan (talk) (Kenton!) 16:14, 25 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Though I have made a copyedit, the rest of the article doesn't look too good without needing a little of that. VincentLUFan (talk) (Kenton!) 16:15, 25 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • While checking ALT0 hook sources, the second and third are unreliable. I am borderline accepting the first source because of the website citing their sources as well, but I am afraid I need some second opinion from experienced editors, so courtesy ping Yoninah and BlueMoonset on this one. VincentLUFan (talk) (Kenton!) 16:24, 25 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "After retirement, he became an instructor at Gillespie Field, training many airline pilots." this is unsourced. VincentLUFan (talk) (Kenton!) 16:35, 25 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • That's all from me at the moment. Courtesy pinging: @Kges1901:, @Danimal57:, @Lightburst:, @AustralianRupert:, @Andrew Davidson:, and @7&6=thirteen:. Thank you. VincentLUFan (talk) (Kenton!) 16:47, 25 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Vincent60030: Thanks.
I removed the unsourced sentence about being an instructor.
He was nine years old - first flight according to this magazine. Since it is stated by him directly I take it as fact. That tidbit is also attributed properly in the article. I rewrote the sentence and removed the bit about a shotgun - as unrelated.
I also agree with your hook suggestion. It is accurate
Good work! Maybe we can advance this article soon? Lightburst (talk) 15:27, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I have just rechecked the article, and the copyedit issues are fixed, as well as sources. However, I am concerned about one image. @DSdugan:for the image you uploaded, is it really what you have drawn for this legendary pilot? Otherwise, I would root for ALT1. VincentLUFan (talk) (Kenton!) 16:56, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Vincent60030: Unsure which photo. I think most are from commons. Lightburst (talk) 19:28, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Updated source info for image. Dsdugan (talk) 19:51, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Alright, approving ALT1. VincentLUFan (talk) (Kenton!) 19:55, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I am with Vincent and ALT1. Lightburst (talk) 20:42, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hi, I came by to promote this to the image slot, but ALT0 is a much hookier hook for that slot. Meanwhile, it seems we have to qualify first U.S. Navy carrier pilot to specify the plane he flew, as the sources do.
[[File:|140px|McWhorter depicted at upper right on American Fighter Aces Congressional Gold Medal ]]
McWhorter depicted at upper right on American Fighter Aces Congressional Gold Medal
@Yoninah: Yeah we can go with that. @Lightburst: hope that is alright with you too. VincentLUFan (talk) (Kenton!) 14:56, 28 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I'm good with whatever hooks you want to go with. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 16:46, 28 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Attribution[edit]

Text and references copied from Hamilton McWhorter III to Grumman F6F Hellcat See former article's history a list of contributors. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 19:21, 24 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Unreliable sources[edit]

As I have noted elsewhere, there is no indication that any of the following sources are reliable, and unless that can be shown to be the case, they and the material that is uniquely cited to them needs to be removed from the article: acepilots.com, Honor365.org, and ussessex.org. I have tagged the article, and the tag should remain in place until this issue has been resolved. You should also be aware that reliability issues have been raised with works by Toliver and Constable, see Talk:Erich Hartmann/GA1 for more details. Thanks, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:55, 25 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I understand your concern. Many of these sites you mention are fan-type sites. However the Journal attesting to the double ace status (I just added) looks to be an official source. So many claim this status. "Air Force Journal of Logistics, Volumes 16-18". Air Force Logistics Management Center. XVI NO 1 (Winter AFRP-1): 28. 1992. Retrieved 25 July 2020. I am sure that this is fact not fiction, and yet I will keep searching for other confirmation. Lightburst (talk) 02:14, 25 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, I'm sure most of the information in the article is legit, but the problem I have is that the principal editor seems to think it is ok to just add reliable sources to backup unreliable sources (hence the citation bombing of the first sentence). What needs to happen is deletion of the unreliable sources and any unique information sourced to them, leaving only reliably-sourced material. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:19, 25 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That is good advice... I am guilty of this as well! Perhaps less is more!
Ok- here is another book, calling him the first hellcat double ace. Maybe I can trim fat. Lightburst (talk) 02:33, 25 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ah yes, published by Casemate, Stout looks to be reliable. It is ok for the double ace claim, but the claims in that source about him being the first ace in the Hellcat and first ace in the squadron are actually from McWhorter, so it can't be used for those claims. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:42, 25 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Yes so much of the histories are oral histories. others are just stenographers jotting down what they say. I went to see George Hardy (Tuskegee Airman) speak last year, and then I shot a photo of him an wrote an article. I imagine everything known about him is from him retelling. Lightburst (talk) 02:45, 25 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That McWhorter said he was the first American naval ace and double ace does not make it untrue. There are multiple WP:RS, including footnote 1. Dorr, Robert F. (21 October 2019). "Sharp Shooting Hellcat "Mac" McWhorter Runs Up the Score" (PDF). Flight Journal. pp. 14–20. Retrieved 22 July 2020. The test is WP:Verifiability in WP:RS. This is verified and true. Page 16 says "double ace". 7&6=thirteen (☎) 12:18, 25 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That isn’t the point. The point is that everything needs a reliable source. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 13:05, 25 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Everything needs a reliable source. I understand that. We agree. And we've done that as you wanted. WP:Dead horse 7&6=thirteen (☎) 13:37, 25 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
So we are clear Sherman, Stephen (July 12, 2001). "Hamilton McWhorter: First F6F Hellcat Ace". Acepilots.com. Retrieved July 22, 2020. is not a blog or fan-based wiki. Indeed, even if it was, it a fully cited and scrupulous in its referencing. WP:Dead horse 7&6=thirteen (☎) 13:45, 25 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
We are certainly not clear, and this is far from a dead horse. acepilots.com is a self-published source by an enthusiast. In what way does Sherman meet the “established subject-matter expert, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications” test? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 14:35, 25 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Barrett Tillman's 1979 book, which I have cited, states that McWhorter temporarily became the leading carrier pilot with his kills over Truk on 17 February 1944. He notes that Alex Vraciu was the second highest at the time with nine victories. Edward Young's Osprey book makes this implied first double ace claim explicit by stating that McWhorter became the first Hellcat double ace of the war with the victories. So this claim doesn't rely on Sherman's restatements of material in Tillman's book. Kges1901 (talk) 15:03, 25 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Removed [1] I'm done here. Flauble your dauble all you want. I'm done here. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 15:31, 25 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Peacemaker hoping you can give us a hand (get on the dyk?). I saw you made a few constructive edits in the article. Hoping to get this guy in a DYK. FYI I started another article about the only ace to have kills in both European and pacific theaters I would help more but I am sandwiched in coach now and 12% battery. Have a great weekend Lightburst (talk) 16:08, 25 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'll have a look after the other information and citations to acepilots.com have been removed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:47, 25 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Have removed the acepilots references. Kges1901 (talk) 00:14, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That article is looking good! Making sausage is not pretty, but the end result is great. The biography is great reading. What do you all think of the product after the rework? Lightburst (talk) 12:51, 28 July 2020 (UTC) [reply]

References

  1. ^ Sherman, Stephen (July 12, 2001). "Hamilton McWhorter: First F6F Hellcat Ace". Acepilots.com. Retrieved July 22, 2020.

Congressional Gold Medal?[edit]

The article says McWhorter was awarded a Congressional Gold Medal, but the sources say it was a Congressional Gold Medal awarded to all Aces; none of the sources name McWhorter specifically, though they do name other pilots. I don't think this belongs in the lead, infobox, or awards section. In the awards section it's described correctly; I added {{fv}} tags to the lead and infobox. Also, I reported this to WP:ERRORS. The main page currently says McWhorter is the pilot pictured in the top right of the medal itself, but the article doesn't say this, and I can't find any sources verifying that, either. That's not a problem with the article, it's for ERRORS, but I though I'd mention it in case any page watchers had sources or could otherwise clarify. Lev!vich 17:30, 4 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Reworded - discussion continues on errors. Lightburst (talk) 20:46, 4 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion[edit]

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