Talk:Gundulić family

Call to historians who know Dalmatian history

For the 19th century, it would seem that upper class Dalmatians' names and first language were (in) some sort of Romance language. The note in the Gallery section labeled in Croatian is, in fact, written in Italian! Can someone who has the time and knowledge please make this article historically accurate? All articles about Dalmatia are, at this point, Croation nationalist talking points. There can be no doubt that Dalmatia is fully Croatian in governance & culture in 2011. Are some Croations, like the ones conducting a scorched earth campaign over Dalmatia, so insecure that they need to rewrite the facts of history? Tapered (talk) 07:26, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

--Dalmatians all had italian names, because a) dalmatia was under venice from 1409. untill its fall in 1797. b) dubrovnik was independendt but like the rest of the dalmatia it was under influence of italy and most of nobility studied in italian university's. croatian language was standardise only in the 19th century and it was at that time that the names and surnames of the croatians from the earlier periods were transcribed to their "croatian" form. it is not a 20th century thing. Adriatic_HR (talk) 22:46, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Do you have references, documentation? Tapered (talk) 20:48, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

Duh! This article has no English language sources. As such, it deserves near-blanking. I'll consider this and probably add a 'lacks credible sources' attachment to it. Cheers. Tapered (talk) 01:44, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

It looks the name of this noble family (and the related descendency) have been abusively croatised. Absolutely unacceptable. Also because all the sources (including the sources used in the present article!) use the orginal version of the name (the Italian) even for the Coat of Arms. This has nothing to do with the ethnicity of the family. Noble families in Dubrovnik were characterised by a strong duality in terms of culture (Slavik and Romance). The issue here is that it should be used the version of the name prevalent in the sources and definitely the one used by the Herladry. Also some sources require attention, because might not comply with WP. I have started with some obvious modifications, all comments are welcome.--Silvio1973 (talk) 11:36, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Nonsense [1][2]. This is the English-language Wikipedia, please refrain from "abusive italianizing" of Croatian noble families, to paraphrase your post. That's what's "Absolutely unacceptable". -- Director (talk) 15:58, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

No problem, I will request very soon a 3rd opinion, because it looks that you are completely missing the point. The issue is not if those families were Croatian or Italian. The issue is the way they are called. You cannot pretend to use the Croatian version of the name for a noble family whose name in the Coat of Arms is in all sources in Italian.

You cannot sustain your argument just with a Google research. This article is about a noble family. How can you sustain your argument is everything about Heraldry (namely the Coat of Arms) is Italian. Also how can you sustain your argument looking to the origin of this family. Again, this is not an issue of nationality as you want to depict. --Silvio1973 (talk) 16:50, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

@ Direktor again. You should calm down and realise that even the document reported in the article for the official entry as Count for a member of this House reports the Italian version of the name. Do you realise in this article the very same sources sustain the opposite of what you pretend being true? --Silvio1973 (talk) 17:07, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm perfectly calm. You're the one throwing around terms like "absolutely unacceptable" and "abusive croatization". You're also the one missing the point entirely. "Official" names do not concern us, and the issue is NOT what this family was called. The issue is what this family is called. In English-language sources.

I've provided links just above re the most common terminology in English-language sources, all else is immaterial. Terminology is not determined only through the sources actually used in the article, but on the basis of researching all English-language sources in general. "Gundulić" is the English-language name of this Croatian noble family [3]. -- Director (talk) 17:37, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

You have provided nothing else that a research trough Google Books. And by the way the number of sources are actually limited and the ratio between the two researchs if also not that large. And you should perhaps be more concerned of the materiality of the sources used in this article. Indeed none is in English, so I do not see how you can claim the article uses sources proving the English used version of the name is what you pretend it is. --Silvio1973 (talk) 17:56, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

I also know how to use Google books. And could find the following [4]. Direktor, research is work not just a google research. And again, I need to insist that the issue is not of nationality. You look literally obsessed with thing "Croatian thing". I am not discussed if they are or not Croatian. I am discussing about the name. The issue is that you see things in a monolitic way. You should finally realise that the way the name sounds sometime has nothing to do with nationality or ethnicity. --Silvio1973 (talk) 18:05, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Now I'm having trouble understanding you.

• @"You have provided nothing else that a rearch trough Google Books." - You mean "search"? Yes, that's called a Google Books Test, and its the method usually used to determine common English-language usage.
• @"And by the way the number of sources are actually limited" - No they are not.
• @"the ratio between the two researchs if also not that large." - At least 2:1, more than sufficient.
• @"And you should perhaps be more concerned of the materiality of the sources used in this article." - What do you mean by "materiality"? I repeat that English-language usage terminology is not determined only by the sources actually used in the article.
• @"Indeed none is in English, so I do not see how you can claim the article uses sources proving the English used version of the name is what you pretend it is." - Again, for the purposes of this discussion, you can forget about the sources used in the article. If none of them are in English, that's all the more reason not to use them as indicative of English-language usage.
• @"I am not discussed if they are or not Croatian." - Neither do I. You're right, that's not the question here, so why are you focusing on it?

I don't mean to be rude, but please pay a bit more attention to grammar. P.s. please be very careful to keep the discussion civil ("You look literally obsessed with thing Croatian thing."). -- Director (talk) 18:08, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

@Direktor, if as you claim there are plenty of sources put in them in the article. As it is now it is not supported by a single decent source in English. This is a fact. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Silvio1973 (talk • contribs) 18:13, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

I don't have to do that, and I won't do it on your demand. English-language terminology is not determined only by the sources actually used in the article. Ok? The alternative is absolutely ridiculous: would you have users engage in a contest on "who can add the most sources", esp. when there are literally thousands?

And I'm not "claiming" anything, the sources have been provided. Begging your pardon, but you appear to be unfamiliar with how these sort of issues are resolved on this project.

You will be reported in case of further disruptive edit-warring, adding your offensive personal remarks about my "obsessions" into the bargain. Your new, highly controversial edits have been reverted, now please discuss. There is no chance whatsoever you will have your way through clicking the "undo" button. -- Director (talk) 18:18, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Direktor, I have all the right to report that an article has no sources supporting it if this is the case. And indeed as the article is today, there are no sufficient (indeed at all) English sources supporting it. With the all due respect, have you looked into the article, instead of just restricting the discussion to a sterile nationalism? --Silvio1973 (talk) 18:27, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

So, would you really be satisfied if I just added some sources from this bunch? Or would this continue afterward? -- Director (talk) 18:32, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Direktor, what I want is to know the truth not to be right. Even if the quest for the truth could be achieved with a Google research, this would not be case. The same research with Gondola instead of Gundulic [5] achieves 901 results vs. 1240 of yours. The difference is too small and a research for quality results necessary. However, the question is different. We discussing for long time about Dalmatia and all parties concluded that for a geographical claim you need a geography book. Well for a claim of Heraldry you need a book on Heraldry (or related topics) and in English because this is en:wiki. In this article this is missing. --Silvio1973 (talk) 19:08, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

And i beg your pardon, but have you checked that your research trough Google books at number 10 warns : "Please note that the content of this book primarily consists of articles available from Wikipedia or other free sources online."? This raises an issue of WP:CIRCULAR. --Silvio1973 (talk) 19:14, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

The Google tests take WP:CIRCULAR into account (that's what the "-Wiki" and "-LCC" are for), but I'll expand that and use "-Wikipedia". Here is a more refined search that also compensates for the "ć" character.

• "Gundulić" OR "Gundulich" OR "Gundulic" Dubrovnik -Wikipedia -LCC renders 3,680 English-language hits
• "Gondola" Ragusa -Wikipedia -LCC renders 1820 English-language hits

This is being generous, too: this is the highest score I could get for "Gondola". In English-language sources "Gundulić" is the term most commonly used. Now you, Silvio, being Italian, may not like it that the Italian name isn't more common - but that's how it is. A 2:1 ratio isn't incredibly impressive - but that's why the name "Gondola" is in bold right in the lead, rather than being disregarded completely.

Now I'm going to add a few references for the name "Gundulić" into the article (since that's how you apparently define "Truth^TM"). Then I'm going to remove your highly inappropriate tag for something that has about 3,500 sources. -- Director (talk) 20:42, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Direktor, you are too expeditive.

• 1) The ratio 2:1 is not only "not impressive", it's indeed not true. Researching with "Gondola Ragusa -Wiki -LCC" I found 2,130 references ; with "Gundulic Dubrovnik -Wiki -LCC" I found 3550. The ratio would be then 1.66. I cannot reproduce your research with 3,680 sources found (can you tell us exactly how you get there), but even if it was the case 3680/2130 = 1.72, less than 2.
• 2) Trough your Google research with "Gundulic Dubrovnik -Wiki -LCC" the first source found is described as: "Books Llc, Source: Wikipedia - ‎2010 - 268 pages - Please note that the content of this book primarily consists of articles available from Wikipedia or other free sources online.". These are your sources?
• 3) You cannot pretend to put a picture with a Coat of Arm that is not in accordance with a source. In the sources reported in the article, the Coat of Arms always report the Italian version of the name.
• 4) Aside the issue of the name, there is the general issue of the content of the article. The most of the article has a reference issue, because its content it's not supported by any English source.
• 5) You should give a look to who were the main editors (or better editor) contributing to this article in the past. This should ring a bell about the possibility that the whole article tries to push a POV.
• 6) This family has origins from Tuscany and Trento. All documents describing civil records of this family report the Italian name (indeed some of them are written in Italian).
• 7) Wikipedia does not work like a democracy. We have to look to quality and not quantity (expecially when the quantity ratios are close). It might even be that there are more English sources reporting "Gundulic" instead of "Gondola", but this could be because Croatian scholars tend to write in English more than the Italian ones. This does not mean that the English Academical World on this subject has the same orientation.
• 8) If these arguments are not enough for you, I will request a third opinion. There is definitely enough of room to have everything in the two languages (at least), but clearly you want to have Italian cleared out of the article. No way, there are too many sources supporting it. I am not going to leave the legitimate facts of this noble family falling in the oblivion with more than 2,100 sources supporting it. --Silvio1973 (talk) 08:08, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

I don't want to enter in this. I've not enough time... only one thing. Ghetaldi is not the Italian declination of the original surname, but it's its modern romance dalmatian form. The original one was in latin and was "Ghetaldus". Here a reference: http://books.google.it/books?id=f-cUAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA21&dq=gozze+ghetaldi+%22Italian+sound%22&lr=&cd=2#v=onepage&q=gozze%20ghetaldi%20%22Italian%20sound%22&f=false

In Italy there are not Ghetaldis: http://www.gens.info/italia/it/turismo-viaggi-e-tradizioni-italia?cognome=ghetaldi&x=0&y=0#.UI5Dq29mLlc

The "Gundulić" surname is a XIX century creation, "institutionalized" during Hrvatski narodni preporod. Already there was a discussion about "de Bona" family: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:House_of_Bona

I like the romance form, but I understand that that families are key for Croatian history and only marginal for Italian one.

In my opionion, best title page should be "House of Gondola-Gundulić". --Grifter72 (talk) 09:09, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

@Grifter72, I appreciate your sense of compromise and could indeed accept a solution of this kind. Indeed accepting this compromise would be already generous because we would accept that the artificial has equal dignity than the original.However, the issue is not about Croatian and Italian, because those families were not Italian (the origins were Italians, but certainly not after 7 or 8 century spent in Ragusa). However, whatever solution cannot we agree, we cannot get into OR, so we cannot create a new name (such the composed one you suggest, unless not used by some scholars). Also concerning the Coat of Arms I do not want to look inflexible but do not expect to name it with the Croatian name, when images and sources use the Italian one. Because this would be clearly OR. --Silvio1973 (talk) 09:21, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm not going to waste my time here, Silvio. By your definition we should rename Republic of Ragusa to "Republic of Dubrovnik" because the most common name in English-language usage "does not impress" someone. At some point it really will become less of a bother to simply report this then to try and reason with you and your irrational perception of The Truth^TM. "Gondola" is a prominent variant of this family name, and it is therefore in the lead, in bold. "Gundulić" is a far more common variant in English-language sources, and therefore is the one we're using primarily. There is nothing more to discuss here, there is only never-ending nationalist bickering. -- Director (talk) 17:56, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Direktor, you want to push me to be blocked. Clearly you refuse any discussion and consider yourself in the right to make OR to the point to create a Coat of Arms that do not exist. It looks there is no other option but reaquesting a third opinion. This is very sad, expecially from an administrator. --Silvio1973 (talk) 18:21, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

This is the most ridiculous nonsense dispute in quite a while. What "OR"? There are at least 3,500 thousand sources that use "Gundulic", probably more.

And what coat of arms? Who cares about who made the coat of arms? I can make a 10-times better .SVG Gundulic coa that does not have "ITA" in the title, what would you say then? Are blue and white stripes with a red bar somehow inherently "Italian"?

And yes, I will request sanctions for this disruptive POV-pushing. -- Director (talk) 18:41, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

@Silvio1973: Please dont be confused by amount of data that mentions Gondola name instead Gundulić name. Main reason for that is research available data that mostly comes from italian sources. I hope that rest of data which will be used by historians, will be from croatian sources and then amount of italianized names of croatian nobles/family names will get in real numbers. That number should be around 10 : 1 and higher in croatian favour comparing it to some studies (non related topics) made by croatian historians. Reason why that data from croatian sources is not in studies of many historians is in accessability of data, which coorelates with existance of SFRJ and that most of data from that time period is not in state arhives (its in monasteries and church arhives). --Domjanovich (talk) 11:54, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

In my opinion, Silvio1973 is not confused at all, and simply prefers the version in his native language. To that end he is aggressively edit-warring to remove from the article sources indicating the common usage of the name "Gundulić" [6], and is introducing an absurd double name formulation ("Gundulić/Gondola") contrary to all MoS guidelines [7]. He calls it the "original name" and does not understand that, even if that were the case, its not relevant. -- Director (talk) 12:17, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

Funny Google research

Direktor, you have qualified of ridiculous my modifications. Well, you have just put on the article a google research with a result of over 15,000 English-language publications with "Gundulic -Wikipedia". In the 15,000 publications we have an Australian vessel, a source in Cyrillic, a jazz festival organised in Gundulic square by MTV, a story about a Public Health Report on a steamship in 1902, another vessel on Lloyd's register of shipping and God knows what else. Ah Ah Ah Ah, thank you. You gave me a true moment of fun. However I have done the same exercise with "Gondola -Wikipedia" and found the ridiculous result of 1,280,000 publications. Of course this does not demonstrate anything. These two "researchs" are real rubbish, but at least I am not trying to demonstrate you that this is science. If you want to put in the article in a Google research, put something serious and you will get around 3,000 results with Gundulic and around 2,000with Gondola.--Silvio1973 (talk) 21:49, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

3rd opinion requested

As announced above, I have formally requested a 3rd opinion on this matter. This is somehow regrettable because I believe there was ground to find an agreement but unfortunately this has proven to be impossible. I have never been blocked and I want to keep a clean personal record, so I prefere to ask for the mediation of a third person and avoid an edit war. I don't know what there is of disruptive in requesting a third opinion. The organic matter of the dispute is very simple. User Direktor consider the use of the Croatian name of the noble House of Gondola/Gundulic in Ragusa/Dubrovnik should be preferred because the most common variant in English sources. I have contested this argument on the following grounds:

1) Google research with "Gondola Ragusa -Wiki -LCC" gives 2130 references, "Gundulic Dubrovnik -Wiki -LCC" gives 3550. The ratio is 1.66 therefore it is not possible to speak of prevalent variant. It is necessary to look about the quality of the sources.

2) The Google research with "Gundulic Dubrovnik -Wiki -LCC" give as first a source described as: "Books Llc, Source: Wikipedia - ‎2010 - 268 pages - Please note that the content of this book primarily consists of articles available from Wikipedia or other free sources online.". An issue of WP:CIRCULAR applies on some of the 3550 sources.

3) There is an issue of WP:OR about the alleged "Slavik version" of the Coat of Arms of this House. All existing sources (including the ones cited in the article!) shows the Coat of Arms of this family named "Gondola", but in the article it has been drawn a Coat of Arms named "Gundulic". I have requested, without getting satisfaction, to see a source supporting the article in the current state. Instead my modification has been reverted.

6) This House has origins from Tuscany and Trento. All documents describing civil records of this family report the Italian name (indeed some of them are written in Italian). The name has been croatised in the XIX century and many sources supporting the Croatian version of the name are Croatian, hence a potential issue of conflict exists.

7) The article today cites briefly the original Italian name of this House. For the rest of the article only the Slavik versions are presented. This is in contrast with the sources currently used in the article (many of them are in Italian) and raises a classic issue of WP:UNDUE.

8) If really there are so many sources supporting the Slavik variant of the name for this House, why they are not cited in the article? As it is today, the most of the sources report the Italian version of the name. --Silvio1973 (talk) 19:02, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Yeah.. that's all either plain untrue, or irrelevant. Wow. It looks like I'm really going to respond to all that in detail..

• "1)" and "2)" - Not true.

• A proper, detailed Google test has Gundulic OR Gundulich -Wikipedia -LCC rendering in the neighborhood of 19,000 relevant, English-language sources, practically all referring to this noble family or its members.
• Whereas Gondola Ragusa -Wikipedia -LCC renders about 2,100. And that's the most generous result I could get in researching the term "Gondola" as referring to this Ragusan noble family (as opposed to a gondola).

In fact, no matter how you turn it [8] - "Gundulić" is always distinctly more common in sources.

• "3)" - Irrelevant (and just plain strange). The coat of arms User:Silvio1973 seems to be referring to, File:Coa fam ITA gondola.jpg, is an unsourced own work by an Italian Commons user. I assume the file is probably accurate in depicting the coat of arms of this family, but what kind of bearing that image has on the subject of this family's most common name in English-language sources - I could not even begin to fathom.. perhaps Silvio1973 is confused by the letters "ITA" the user at Commons included in the title. I myself honestly couldn't say.
• "6)" - Irrelevant. What the ancient origins of this family were - is completely irrelevant for this discussion. The issue is the most common terminology in English-language sources. The British Royal family is German in origin, for example. According to this user, we should be talking about Prince Wilhelm von Saxe-Coburg und Gotha.
• "7)" - Not true. WP:UNDUE has absolutely nothing to do with anything here. In fact, policy explicitly recommends the consistent usage of one name throughout the article. I'm struggling to understand what the "logic" of this point is supposed to be, but it appears that according to Silvio, we should perhaps use "Gondola" in 36.3% of the article? And Gundulić in 73.7%? Would that be fair? :)
• "8)" - Irrelevant. As has been pointed out repeatedly to Silvio, we do not determine the most common name only by the sources that are actually quoted in the article. In fact, the very idea is absurd: according to Silvio, we should right now be in a source-adding competition. The one with most time on his hands - wins :). But, nevertheless - fine. Sources have been added to the article.

This just looks like nationalist POV-pushing to me. Silvio just really really likes the name "Gondola", and isn't content with it being displayed as a prominent alternative name in the lead ("Gondola"). Most likely no amount of sources and argumentation will be sufficient to shift his position, and this will probably end in annoyed admins handing-out sanctions. -- Director (talk) 21:29, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Well, let's leave to the mediator the task to decide if my claim is really that irrelevant. --Silvio1973 (talk) 21:43, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

That irrelevant - and more :). And also untrue, much of it. Silvio, one can never be certain, but its very likely noone is about to arrive. That happens very often.

Certainly no "mediator" is going to arrive. That's not what WP:3O is for. -- Director (talk) 21:52, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

• General notice. Please note that Silvio1973 (talk · contribs) has thus far simply "rejected" all search engine testing ("solving this matter trough a Google research is of nil interest for me" [9]), and has instead embarked on a campaign to pointlessly clog the article with excessive sources for the surname ("Gondola") which has consistently in every research effort turned out distinctly less prominent than the current title. The user is apparently of the belief that, by adding as many unnecessary sources as he can for his italianized version of the name (from the thousands available), he might somehow mislead any would-be participants or 3O volunteers by creating the impression that "Gondola" is more common in English-language sources. I surmise this from the (barely-legible) note the user inserted into the "date=" parameter of the {{POV}} template he added into the article. -- Director (talk) 10:59, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Again Direktor, I am no longer open to take any provocation. But I do not want to be blocked, so I will not react to yours. I have kindly requested a 3rd opinion ans since yesterday I have stopped reverting any of your modification. You can do whatever you want of this article and of my edits. You can even delete all of them.

I have posted exactly as many sources as you on the article (7 I think). That's all, I will not put any more sources.

I believe that a Google research is not the way to solve this specific matter, because a Google research conducted correctly does not show a susbstancial difference in the number of sources between the Italian and the Croatian version of the name. I believe we have to go trough the sources and have an open discussion on the content of them. Honestly I prefere to spend my time going secondary sources in order to get more knowledgeable on this topic rather than leaving this task to Google. This does not mean that I "reject" all search engine testing, but only that in this specific instance this is not appropriate. --Silvio1973 (talk) 11:48, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

You are engaged in excessive over-referencing. I added five references for the one name, which was already excessive, and then you added an additional nine. This is against guideline recommendations. We should both leave at most three of the highest-quality references (in ref links "1" and "2"). On this project, in-line references are not used to show prevalence of one term or another with sources in general.

Also, if you're going to use the Harvard SFN format, please use it properly. -- Director (talk) 11:53, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Edit-warring

Noble family (link).

Not a noble family. (link)

Silvio1973, the link you've introduced into the article presents sources that have nothing to do with this noble family. They talk about actual gondolas. The sources quoted in the preceding link are all referring to this noble family or its members. Your insertion of the claim into the article that the sources from the first link, the ones talking about gondolas, are "relevant to the usage of the name 'Gondola'" is actually nothing short of spiteful, malicious WP:VANDALISM of a Wikipedia article.

I repeat: the sources from the link are relevant to the usage of the name "Gundulić". The ones you inserted are not relevant to this article and this noble family. They're talking about gondolas. Kindly remove them. -- Director (talk) 21:51, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Right, you're ignoring this. Tomorrow, if the gondola nonsense is still in the article, this is all going up on a noticeboard. -- Director (talk) 22:20, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

It is nice to wake-up and found that my counterpart has started to accuse me of being a malicius vandal. Perhaps, accusing the counterpart is the way commonly used to solve conflicts in your part of the world. Well, I am unfamiliar with such approach. I hope a mediator will make his/her way to this discussion, because I start to feel genuinely intimidated.

Dear Direktor, has I have already well precised above this "+Google research" I have put in the article it's not intended to be of support to any claim. Indeed, I have added to the article with purpose this research, because this seemed the only way to make you understanding that you are proceeding incorrectly, in the respect of the form and the matter.

1) Form: the article itself it's not the place to report the results of a Google research to support a claim. Such things have their room in the Talk page.

2) Matter: you insist saying that the over 15,000 publications found trough your google research are relevant to sustain that Gundulic is used in English sources when speaking of this noble House. Let's go then trough the first 80 results of your research (the number corrsponds to the position of the alleged source as listed in your link).

2: Source in Croatian

11: Gundulic is a vessel chartered in 1981

All from 19 to 34: Sources in Croatian

35: Source in Serbo-Croat cyrillic

All from 36 to 75: Sources in Croatian

77: Source in Croatian

Indeed, only a limite number of sources on the first 80 are in English, the others are Croatian. And I have no doubt that in Croatian the form Gundulic is prelavent. However, going more trough the list I have found a Jazz Festival, a Health Medical Report, another vessel and God Knows what else.

Making the research in a proper way we reduce the results to around 3500 for Gundulic and around 2100 for Gondola, but some sources for Gundulic are Wikipedia mirrors.

CONCLUSION: Please fell free to remove my "Google research" as long at the same time you remove yours. --Silvio1973 (talk) 06:01, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes some of the 19,000 hits are probably wrong. Even the most careful research has false hits. What can I do? - I entered the English language filter. There will be Italian-language hits in your searches as well. This is why the claim in the article isn't 19,000 hits, which is the actual raw figure - but 15,000, a more reasonable approximation (even according to the supposed number of false hits you list up there). And yes, we most certainly can add Google Books links to the article. You saying we "can't" - is just you talking.

The bottom line is the link I added is helpful, relevant, and provides readers with a huge number of sources on the Gundulić family and its members. Your addition is just a bunch of links on gondolas. It is the most obvious and textbook WP:VANDALISM of an article, which is being used to try and blackmail other users to remove helpful and relevant data ("remove your addition or I will WP:EDIT-WAR and won't let you remove this WP:VANDALISATION"). Its really just incredible stuff. Deliberate introduction of completely irrelevant data - I assure you it is WP:VANDALISM.

I personally thought you were far more reasonable than this, Silvio. Gondolas?? Please, please don't make me bother admins with this stupid affair. Please remove the nonsense link you've added. It is completely incomparable to the previous link in terms of relevance. This is really my last appeal. I'm starting to look stupid here, actually begging you to remove complete nonsense from the article. -- Director (talk) 06:21, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

Direktor, I must believe that you also think that here we are not selling tomatoes. You tell me : OK 19,000 it's probably wrong, I adjust for 15,000 because I know there is no perfect Google research. This way of proceeding is wrong. Do you realise that? We need to go trough the sources and to their quality. I have very serious sources and I am adding them to the article. Let's discuss serious sources vs. serious sources instead of leaving to Google the task to decide how are things. I am removing both google researchs (yours and mine) from the article. They have no room there. I hope I have managed to make the discussion return to normality. And again, let's discuss of individual serious secondary sources. At the end of the day this is the way Wikipedia should work. --Silvio1973 (talk) 06:39, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

Ok, then how about I remove the number from the ref? -- Director (talk) 06:43, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

I don't think I'll play along with you turning this into some kind of "source-adding contest". I restored the link to the remaining sources, but without any "tomato seller" numbers. Please bear in mind, I don't know how you folks do it at itWiki, but on this project we do not determine the most common term in scholarly sources solely by the sources actually in the article at any one time. Your refusal to acknowledge this fact is classic WP:ICANTHEARYOU. You're not about to change the WP:COMMONNAME by clogging the article with more sources (from the thousands available) than the other guy :).

I myself am under no circumstances prepared to allow you to impose some new "criteria" of your own whereby you might disregard thousands upon thousands of sources. -- Director (talk) 08:19, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

Direktor, you cannot link to 19,000 of souces claiming they are English, when 80% are not. Please give a look inside your Google research. I have reported you above that most of the sources are not English. What do you want more? --Silvio1973 (talk) 11:39, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

The "80%" figure is an incredible, demonstrably absurd exaggeration.

• With the search in question, the English-language filter is used. The filter is not perfect and does include some few Croatian-language sources among the vast majority English-language publications. That's not my fault, and I can't do anything to further refine the search in that respect. Your searches have few Italian-language hits as well.
• That is why the text you removed [10] does not make the claim that these are all English-language sources.

The link, as information relevant to the article, must be included. -- Director (talk) 12:02, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

Well, take a sample. I don't know, the first 200 sources and see how many are not English. --Silvio1973 (talk) 12:08, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

That is not necessary. Its obvious to anyone that the vast majority are in English (the English filter is on!). And the text you removed does not claim that all sources in the link are English-language sources.

I am curious as to whether you'll simply ignore this post altogether? Or will you just respond without acknowledging it? -- Director (talk) 12:31, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

Direktor, I am not going to discuss anymore. I asked for a third opinion and now I will wait patiently for it. If you even do not take the pain to check the sources that allegedly support your claim, I don't see why I should convince you to do so. Do of this article what you want, perhaps a third opinion will clarify things.--Silvio1973 (talk) 14:29, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

Ragusino's gallery and masses of illegible text

Galleries of random images such as that one are strongly discouraged by WP:IG. I removed it, while including some of the images into the article.

There are currently in the article huge masses of unsourced, badly-spelled, and near-illegible text by the banned User:Ragusino. They should probably be deleted wholesale. The trouble is - this gibberish constitutes most of the article. We would be practically blanking the thing. -- Director (talk) 09:34, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

This is an issue (the article looks today an unsourced soap-opera) and I hope we will jointly work on it when we will have solved this issue about the names. --Silvio1973 (talk) 11:40, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry to say it will probably be very difficult for us to cooperate in future, Silvio. Your extremely aggressive nationalist edit-warring and POV-pushing on this article, where you have repeatedly entered controversial changes without talkpage consensus and against opposition is highly inappropriate behavior. Had this been a less-obscure article, I estimate you would already have been blocked. -- Director (talk) 12:08, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

Direktor, you qualify my edits of disruptive and POV-pushing but have you realised that during the last 24 hours you have been posting a Google Research for English sources that you claim being relevant and indeed it's not. And I tell you exactly what is wrong. Do you not even take the effort to check into what you post. On the first 70 sources of your Google Research: two are not relevant (a vessel) and 50 are in foreign language (mainly Croatian) and more precisely sources: 2-10-19-20 and all from 23 to 69. It make 52 on 70 = 74%. Is this serious? Have a cup of tea and think about it. --Silvio1973 (talk) 12:18, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

Do not attempt to patronize me, please. You just throw out figures without any regard to whether they're correct or not. These numbers of yours are ridiculously, demonstrably false. The publications you consider to be "Croatian" are Gundulic's literary works who'se title is in the original form. And even if they were to be disregarded, its still a minute proportion. The English-language filter is on, Silvio. These are, by and large, English-language publications. -- Director (talk) 12:39, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

Well, go in the books and see in which languages they are written. I have provided you the exact number of the contested sources. Get into these and convince yourself. Direktor, you are missing the point. If you want really to be right you need to go trough the sources (if you have the time and the will to do it) and not leaving to Google this job. Research is work. And again and for the last time: I do not contest the double identity of this House, I contest that so little of their Italian specificity is left in this article. --Silvio1973 (talk) 12:59, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

Get this please: I do not need to justify to you my addition of relevant links to this article. The link includes thousands of sources on this subject and is relevant to the usage of the term "Gundulić" and thsi article in general. There is no basis whatsoever for your removal. Yes, it includes some false hits - all Google searches do. Every single one, including yours. What you need to understand, is that that your reasons for removing it are completely irrelevant. Its basically spite and malicious deletion of sources. -- Director (talk) 13:48, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

"Gundulić/Gondola"

The "Gundulić/Gondola" formulation you added to the infobox is, to use your words, absolutely unacceptable. The "Gundulić/Gondola Family" does not exist. Only one name can be used. This family's most common name in English-language usage is "Gundulić". Whereas the alternative name has a place in the lead per MoS, and also has a special category in the infobox. There is simply no way this "Gundulić/Gondola" POV nonsense can remain in the article.

There is no "fair representation" of names. On this project, we use the most common name throughout, and list alternative names - as alternative names. There always has to be a primary name which is used predominantly. Not an equal share or some other nonsense you feel would be "fair" because you're Italian and you like the Italian name. This is general Wikipedia practice, and its done for the purposes of clarity and avoiding confusion. Not a single article uses two names equally, or even near-equally, for its subject matter.

The bottom line is that there is no "Gundulić/Gondola Family". I hope you realize I am being the gentleman here and refraining from following your example. Anyone can WP:EDIT-WAR just as much as you can. If I get the impression you're just fine with me wasting efforts on the talkpage while your POV nonsense is up on top in the article, I shall resort to more aggressive means. Do not ignore talkpage posts and discuss productively. -- Director (talk) 12:47, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

Direktor, I do not like the Italian name because I am Italian. But I do not like your attitude of Croatian possessivity. You cannot claim something is Croatian because a Google research sustain it, without even going trough the sources. I did not know a lot about this topic but I am progressively learning going trough the sources and I realised the use of the Italian version of the name is frequent in many reputable sources (that I am progressively listing) such as foreign English or American Universities. Solving this matter trough a Google research is of nil interest for me and for the Wikipedia community, expecially when the Google research for English sources contains mainly Croatian sources (as yours and everyone mediating in this dispute will confirm this) or English sources from Croatian authors. And if there will be no mediation I will leave to you the possibility to be the unique dominator of this article. This is very sad, indeed but sic stantibus rebus.--Silvio1973 (talk) 14:38, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

Please remove the cockamamie "Gundulić/Gondola" format. It is unheard-of, and its not how we treat alternative names on this project. -- Director (talk) 14:47, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

Slivio? Are you there? I will not be drawn into any more of your edit-wars, and this matter will be up on WP:ANI. Will you please show me you can be reasoned with and remove the formulation you entered? Will you restore the the MOS-appropriate infobox headings you altered without consensus? -- Director (talk) 15:17, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

Incomprehensible

Hereafter the first 7 lines of the article. If this is English I am Queen Victoria of England. Indeed going trough the text gave me some real fun. It's like listening someone drunk. I wanted to correct some of the text, the issue is that I really don't understand what the editor wanted to say...

Originally from Lucca, the family arrived in Dubrovnik around 930, with the King Pavlimir, in the Gelcich`s book Die Zara-Zeitung (Smotra Dalmatinska). The name "Gundulić" is derived from the Italian word Gondola, which in turn came from Greece - it was of xovbu (vase à boire), as said, or xouvrexac; (barque). As an important contribution to the Gundulić biography but this may not be official pedigree here passed over. Completed he was ex tabella Veterinary antiques from conservata towards the end of the 17th century. In 20 April 1693 by the Secretary of the Ragusan Republic, Michael Allegrettus, on behalf of the Rectors and the Great Council (Consilium Maius) confirmed solemnly. When the first Gundulić; Silvanus was called, then Prior cognominato Petrus, continuing a Priore (Rector) Conte Savigno. The first annual provision of a name with the number 1024. In 1162 Luccaro is mentioned, and for the XII century; Signore fondatore Giovanni di Jacomo out in huge branches on both sides. spreads from the trunk (only male members significant), whereas the XVII century: the element of the villages of the province of Brescia and Ceto Morignone. (Knight. Geogr statist-Lexikon, Leipzig, 1895.) --Silvio1973 (talk) 12:28, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

That's Ragusino's nonsense. As far as I am concerned, feel free to delete illegible gibberish on sight. -- Director (talk) 17:25, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

@ Domjanovich

Dear Domjanovich, I own you an answer. I will try to as brief as possible. And will take the opportunity to explain exactly my arguments.

1) A Google research is useful to show only the global prevalence of one variant of the name. In that sense the version Gundulic is more relevant, still I have been unable to reproduce Direktor's result. When I went trough the claimed over 15,000 results found by Direktor I realised that many references were in Croatian. Perhaps the filter was not active, I don't know. The only thing I could do was to take a sample of found references and demonstrate they were not English. This was unheard.

Indeed I have searched in Google books with "Gundulic Ragusa Dubrovnik - Wikipedia -LCC" and the filter on English on and found 1810 references [11]. With the same filter I have researched "Gondola Ragusa Dubrovnik - Wikipedia -LCC" and found 1100 references [12]. The ratio is 1.6, not impressive in favour of "Gundulic". Such a proximity in terms of relevance would suggest the we need to look for the quality of the sources, but indeed this is really necessary for another reason that I am going to illustrate.

2) The use of the Romance of Croatian variant when dealing with individuals should be determined on individual basis based on secondary sources analysis (in terms of quality first and marginally in terms of quantity is really the quality is the same). I would never refer to the Croatian poet Ivan Gundulić as "Giovanni Gondola" (this would be historically incorrect, an inacceptable POV to use Direktor's wording). For the same reason I believe that "Frano Getaldić-Gundulić" should be called Francesco Ghetaldi-Gondola (or Frano Ghetaldi-Gondola). The reason is that the duality (Croatian and Italian) of the Gondola and Ghetaldi-Gondola families was very strong and each individual contributed differently to the two cultures (Romance and Croatian). This reflects in the abundance of the respective sources supporting one version of the name instead of the other and can be easily checked treating each individual separetely. It will require a lot of work (and a lot of separate discussions), but it's the correct way to do it. Otherwise we decide on the name to be used for someone living in the XIX century on the basis of what is decided for his ancestor living in the XVI.

On the other hand when referring to the Houses the romance form should be preferred. A deeper (but brief) analysis of the sources shows that when dealing with the Houses the most common used form used in English sources is the romance. As Grifter72 wrote above, the same discussion was made in 2010 around the House of Bona [[13]] and the conclusions were exactly what I am suggesting to do here. With the House of Gondola we are exactly in the same situation.

Please note that even Ivo Perić (Jugoslavenska akademija znanosti i umjetnosti), in his books used the romance variant of the name when referring to Francesco Gondola:

• http://books.google.hr/books?ei=EJSRUMyEDqmk4gSlxIH4Cw&hl=it&id=UlgdAQAAMAAJ&dq=inauthor%3A%22Ivo+Peri%C4%87%22&q=gondola#search_anchor
• http://books.google.hr/books?hl=it&id=MSPUAAAAMAAJ&dq=inauthor%3A%22Ivo+Peri%C4%87%22&q=gondola#search_anchor

I hope this clarifies. In the meantime, the only thing I can do is waiting for a competent third party. Unfortunately, so far I have been unable to make my arguments heard.--Silvio1973 (talk) 08:07, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

Why do we have two Getaldić-Gundulić coats of arms one below the other in this article? Is it because one is Italian and has "Ghetaldi-Gondola" on it? -- Director (talk) 20:54, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

Well, because the first one is a drawing from a Croatian contributer. The second one is the scan of a secondary source and (surprise, surprise) it uses the Romance variant of the name as everywhere when we refer to the family. You cannot pretend that a drawing from an user has priority of being published that the scan of a secondary sources. This would be OR. Of course you can delete this evidence, untill a third competent party will not realise what you have done to the article.--Silvio1973 (talk) 06:15, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

@Silvio1973, first of all I like effort you put in explaining just one thing in this article. But all Directors and all yours or anybody else Google searches dont put things in right place and make confusion over the right way to deal whith problem, a problem you constructed/made it (dont get me wrong on this) on wrong conclusions from visible data that google/e-books/italian made sources give in such way that Director see one thing and you see other. There is a mountain of data related to this House name that is not visible on any web search and probably wont be visible on web for long time. This is not first time that something like this due to absens of all data on given theme, wikipedia Users get wrong conclusion and try to push POV that is not correct. Sorry, but in this case you are the one that is wrong, not Director. I think it is not your fault, you have just been mind cluched by data available to you. I would like that every data you want gets in article and as time passes by that data gets changed because of available info so that you could see you were wrong and same would make your heart/mind calm. But, I belive that is not going to be possibile. --Domjanovich (talk) 09:00, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

@Silvio, you need to acquaint yourself, and acknowledge(!), how this project is written. To put it roughly, it is written according to modern-day, English-language sources. The terminology these sources predominantly use is the terminology of Wikipedia. Now, WP:SETs are most certainly not perfect, but they're probably among the best tools we have to solve these sort of disputes regarding what the sources predominantly use and do not use.

Most importantly, we simply can not equally use two or three different-language names for the same thing in an article. Alternative names should definitely be included, but they should not be used interchangeably (and haphazardly) with the main term. Especially if that is merely to satisfy a sense of national pride (as, if you'll please pardon me, appears to be the case here). -- Director (talk) 09:31, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

Villa Ghetaldi-Gondola in Dubrovnik

Since I have been on Wikipedia this is the most incredible dispute I have been involved. The evidence of what I claim are strong but I face the solely fierce opposition of one user, because so far almost no-one else has been involved in the discussion.

Another example: Villa Ghetaldi-Gondola in Dubrovnik is claimed being Getaldic-Gundulic by Direktor. Well this source at page 47 : [14] call this historical protected building as "Ghetaldi-Gondola". This document is an official urban plan of the City of Dubrovnik. To test more this fact I have searched on Google "Ljetnikovac Ghetaldi – Gondola" (Mansion Ghetaldi-Gondola) and found 1,980 references [15], of course with most of them being Croatian. I made the same researcg with "Ljetnikovac Ghetaldic – Gundulic" and found only 1 reference [16].

Again, searching on Google with "House Ghetaldi-Gondola" I have found 5,690 references [17]. As I am claiming from almost a week, everytime we refer to the House of the Gondola and Ghetaldi-Gondola (their family, their Coat of Arms, their residencies, their noble titles) the owerwhelming majority of sources use the Romance variant of the name (even the Croatian sources). I can only wait more for my arguments to be heard.

In the meantime I have modified the caption of the image with the actual name of the monument but I believe Direktor will revert the modification even if it is sourced.--Silvio1973 (talk) 06:15, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

You are simply refusing to acknowledge how Wikipedia works. Wikipedia does not use multiple different-language names for the same thing in article text. We use the most common one. I'm reasonably certain that if more people were actually here, they would be telling you this too, rather than agreeing with you (against policy and guidelines) that the "official" or "original" name should be used in half the article or whatever it is you are actually advocating.

As you say, you may be absolutely certain I will continue to revert your sporadic introductions of different versions of the same name throughout the article. All versions of the name are sourced, but the one that is "more sourced" is the one that we should use consistently in the article.

And if that is indeed the Getaldić House (as your new caption says), rather than Gundulić, then it is not related to the subject of this article. -- Director (talk) 07:58, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

You have just removed the image of Villa Gondola. You ignore or remove all the evidence that is against your arguments. In this article you are having exactly the same regrettable attitude you had with House of Bona and that time in the end it was found you were wrong. But you insist in extending the use of the name Gundulic to everything because this is the most frequent name trough a Google research. But this prevalence is due to Ivan Gundulić ans cannot be extended to all othe members of the families and to the families themself. However, I will not modify the article because now I feel intimidated and I am too scared to be blocked. I will just continue to accept passively your attitude, because I believe the time for a fair decision will come.

By the way the House pictured in the article is denominated House Ghetaldi-Gondola in Gruz as clearly said here [18] at page 47. --Silvio1973 (talk) 09:32, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

I do not "remove all the evidence that is against my arguments". I removed that image because you apparently applied a wrong caption to it: you called it the "Ghetaldi House" (see for yourself), which would mean it was wrongly featured here (by Ragusino) on the House of Gundulić article. I replaced the G-G coat of arms because its a poorer-quality, black-and-white duplicate of an image just above it.

But I said all this already in my edit summary and on the talkpage. Please try to improve your English communications skills, as you apparently often do not read posts and edit summaries, and/or simply ignore that which you find more difficult to translate. This is by no means the only such case.

I have the exact same "attitude" in all issues of this sort. That is called consistency. I was not "wrong" on that article, I simply let it go. Mostly because the article probably isn't notable enough for Wiki anyway. But we will not discuss me in general here, please.

The relevance of this family, and its inclusion on Wikipedia is probably mostly based on Ivan Gundulić. There is absolutely no basis for excluding him from research. -- Director (talk) 09:43, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

Direktor, take care of your communications skills instead of mine. You let it go on that article because insisting with your modifications you would have been probably blocked. Yes, you are "consistent" : you believe to be right all the time, even when you are not. However, the inclusion on Wikipedia of this family is certainly mostly based on Ivan Gundulić but this cannot impinge on the validity and prevalence of the sources supporting facts that are distincts from Ivan Gundulić. Each fact has to be supported by related, relevant sources. In this precise instance you insist in changing the name of two Noble Families, of thier residencies, the names used for the Coat of Arms, the names used for the entire descendency across 300 years and used to award their nobles titles, because there is a prevalence of sources calling for Ivan Gundulic and not for "Francesco Gondola". Again, I can only hope a competent third party will judge your "consistency". --Silvio1973 (talk) 10:23, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

Every fact needs to be supported by sources, certainly. That does not mean, however, that we change the names every time we use a different source. This is a very small article, but can you imagine the confusion that might cause on larger articles? Nazi Germany is maybe a good example: many sources cited there refer to the state as the "Third Reich" or "German Reich" or "Greater German Reich", or even "Hitler's Germany". Yet we only use "Nazi Germany" in the article, because it has consistently been shown to be the more common (and not much more common either, mind you).

A third party has arrived, but you have begun to ignore the user just as you generally ignore me (now that you do not like what he has to say). You say I refuse to consider the possibility that I am wrong? What about you? Setting aside this farcical affair, you still have not changed your position on the Dalmatia article either, you simply withdrew. -- Director (talk) 10:35, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia works with rules. There is a 3O request pending on this article. The article is currently under dispute (and by the way I will briefly and neutrally write around what). If user Domjanovich wants to be the mediator of this dispute, he/she is welcome. As you know, there is a usual procedure to conduct a 3O and I would welcome him to conduct such mediation. About Dalmatia there is nothing to change. The article for me is today fairly balanced (albeit, a lot of sourcing is still missing). It could be better, but the main object of remaining discussion is today between you and another user. --Silvio1973 (talk) 11:00, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

This is also something I told you already: there are no "mediators" with WP:3O. WP:3O is a user arriving and giving his (third) opinion.

So again, that's something I told you before. And, once more, you are not responding to my above post, but going on about something completely different you want to say. This is disruptive behavior, Silvio. Please discuss by taking into account what other users are saying. Please acknowledge and respond to my point above: the fact that we do not use many different names for the same thing on Wikipedia articles. -- Director (talk) 11:05, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

Yes, we need to use always the same name for the same thing. But not for all the things. You are extending the relevance of Ivan Gundulic to facts that are unrelated to him. You seem to ignore that those families (Bona, Gondola, Ghetaldi, Cerva) and many of their members referred to themselves with the Romance form of the name. This for a number of reasons indipendent from me and that you know very well. Bring proof (i.e. English secondary sources) that the relevance of Gundulic applies when we refer exclusively to the House and the discussion will be closed.

PS And by the way, Grifter72 has the same opinion of me. But I do not consider that posting an advice is a mediation following a 3O request (even if this could be convenient for me). --Silvio1973 (talk) 11:24, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I am ignoring the fact that many family members referred to themselves with the Romance form of the name. I am ignoring that because its irrelevant. For you to decide what this family should be called based on that fact is WP:ORIGINAL RESEARCH. Wikipedia articles are written according to published sources.

Again, please acknowledge that's OR. -- Director (talk) 11:25, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

This article is about the House of Gondola, if the most of the English sources refer to this family using the Romance variant of the name, you cannot ignore this.--Silvio1973 (talk) 12:24, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

Of course not. They don't, however. And if you are here to improve this project, rather than for some other purpose, you also should ignore what I'm ignoring. (I repeat there is no justification whatsoever to exclude Ivan Gundulić from any research on the notability of his family name, or to somehow "separate" him from the rest of the noble family.) -- Director (talk) 14:47, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

Direktor, the notability of Ivan Gundulić cannot have an unlimited influence on the notability of the name used for all other facts related to this family, including members that lived many centuries later. I have demonstrated to you and can demonstrate with additional sources that when dealing with the House itself the use of the Romance form of the name is equally (if nor more) relevant. And it is definitily more relevant when dealing with other members of the family. But you have disregarded such arguments and those sources. It doesn't looks things are going to improve with only us involved in the discussion. In the meantime, unfortunately the article remains on dispute. --Silvio1973 (talk) 15:16, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

Who said anything about "unlimited influence"? Don't exaggerate (that's called a straw man argument). The research concerns the family in general, and that means all its members, more prominent and less prominent. And as I said, it is doubtful whether this family meets WP:NOTE requirements without Ivan Gundulic.

Long story short: I can not agree, under any circumstances, to your picking and choosing those family members you like in order to have the name in Italian somehow turn out more prominent (although even so I doubt you would succeed). I refuse outright to play this game.

P.s. I'll tell you this right now: POV tags are supposed to be removed after a while if there's no discussion. The purpose of tagging is not to make you feel better if you can't have your way. "Feel-good tags" are discouraged. -- Director (talk) 15:41, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

Direktor, you have been playing this "POV song" for already a week. I have been trough your Talk page and trough the disputes that involved you in other articles concerning Dalmatia. Well, it looks that POV and Socks are the most used words when you refer to users having a different opinion.

I want to explain clearly what are the problems here. In this dispute we are 1:1 and you are an administrator so I won't have chance to see things changiong, unless a third competenty party does not get involved in the discussion. I noticed that my very same argument (the result of the Google research should not be cited in the text of the article) have been applied by Administrator Anomie. I also noticed that you did not revert his edit, even if you had the day before reverted my edit calling for the same modification. It looks indeed that you are intransingent and consistent only with user with limited power of influence on the Wikipedia community. However, hereafter are the issues I have with you on this article.

1)You are insisting that the name of this House should be Gundulic because this is the more frequent name trough a Google Book research. This equates to say that one reference from an unknown scholar has the same weight of a reference from a respected international University. To this we need to add that trough Google often the same source is duplicated many times. Additionally here we have the issue that the relevance from Ivan Gundulic mess-up the relevance for all the related matter (such as the House of Gundulic/Gondola).

2)Even if (please mind, even if) a Google research was the way to solve such disputes, there is still an issue of acceptability of the sources. I have demonstrate you that taking a sample of the first 80 sources from your Google Research, the overwhelming majority of them were not English. You did not reply to me in the respect of this matter, even if I precised you in detail the contested sources from the sample.

3)I could not reproduce trough Google Books the same result you claimed to have found. I found a number of reference of an order of magnitude 5 time smaller (eg. less than 3,000 instead more than 15,000). I have the doubt some filters were not activated (this would explain the issue described at comma 2).

4)Trough the Google research I make under "Gundulic" and "Gondola" I found some prevalency for the first. This prevalence is mainly for Ivan Gundulic not the House of Gundulic/Gundola. Now, I am not saying that Gondola is the preminent name. I am saying that the decision should be taken analysing the 3 or 4 best and more reputable sources concerning the House of Gundulic/Gondola. It looks you refuse this approach. This is very inappropriate, expecially in view of what I said at commas 1, 2 and 3.

However, when I have the time I will clean-up the article, because today it is just an awfull amount of incomprehensible text. Strangely for an administrator, this does not really mind you so much. --Silvio1973 (talk) 16:23, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

You're absolutely right. I will go through the article and delete anything I can't read or make out what its trying to say. -- Director (talk) 11:13, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

I fixed what I could, and deleted a whole bunch of illegible nonsense. As you probably noticed, there had also been a HUGE amount of irrelevant listing of descendants and "who married who and had what kids" type of nonsense. The entire Getaldić-Gundulić family (and likely all its members) are entirely and indubitably below WP:NOTE requirements for any extensive mention on this project. The "lineage of Ivan Gundulic" section is useless, barely legible listing of his descendants - that's not for Wikipedia. Needless to say: if you feel I deleted anything I should not have, please feel free to restore it. -- Director (talk) 11:31, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

20 lines for an article of this kind is more than enough. I will edit tomorrow the section "Further reading" and actually I will reduce it. I consider out of the scope of Wikipedia to give mo many details on further reading for a topic that would be more only of interest for a specialist on Heraldry. On top of that there is an issue of WP:V on those sources. Concerning the other matters, I will return to you in a few days. I prefere to wait things to settle and calm down. --Silvio1973 (talk) 15:44, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

Good Grief

This is quite a dispute. What's needed is some sort of credible English language history of the Ragusan Republic to determine the appellation of this family during that period. Silvio, you argue a lot, when you ought to be doing research, perhaps seeking academic experts to point you in the right direction. Enough 'sturm und drang' (to commemorate the Austro-Hungarian suzerainity. The Director's takedown of the photo gallery is blatant POV, bad faith editing. I tend to guess on the "Gondola" side of the dispute, but big deal...what's needed is an academically authoritative work in English. Good luck.Tapered (talk) 09:54, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Happily the dispute box is still in place. Even more happily, the Republic of Ragusa article is a great example of correct Wikipedia construction and editing. Best of all, neither of the disputants here is a major contributor to the Republic article. Tapered (talk) 05:31, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

Images

I think the front cover of the "Tears of Prodigal Son" has no room here. On the other hand I believe in the Ivan Gundulic article the image should be sized to a bigger dimension. --Silvio1973 (talk) 09:51, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

Image Gallery

The explanation for the removal cited Wikipedia policy, but never explained how the pictures detracted from the article. Perhaps the images need to be dispersed and some removed. But let them stay for the time being. They do pertain to the House of Gundulic/Gondola. Tapered (talk) 03:01, 15 February 2014 (UTC) 13:40, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Hopefully resolved Gallery issue. Removed gallery. Put two of the images, which related to information in the article, on right side of article, labeled in accord with their origin & left the rest out of the article. (I assume that because of their title they do pertain the Gondola/Gundulic family). Removed the image labeled "Ivan Gundulic"--the original was simpled titled "Gondola." Tapered (talk) 02:59, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

External Links: renaming undone

Two of the external links which used the name "Gundulic," turned out to be titled "Gondola." The original names have been inserted. Tapered (talk) 05:59, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

←==Re: Dispute== To the arbitrators: this article is subject to nationalist editing: in this case Croatian nationalism. A logical reading of the history of the current city of Dubrovnik indicates that the elite of the city named themselves and spoke in a Romance language for most of the last millennium. Of course that would be original research, but attributing Croatian proper names to likely historical Romance usage is equally original research. Until an interested party produces good historical documentation, why not leave the dispute in place. To the Croatian(s): no one is trying to restore Ragusan/Venetian/Italian/Austrian suzerainty to Dubrovnik. It's a Croatian Slavic city. Tapered (talk) 10:14, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

What concerns me the most is the choice to consider prevalent the use in English of the Slavik version of the name according to a criteria of prevalence, but please note that:

• 1 The use of the slavik version of the name is prevalent on the romance but with a ratio only slightly bigger than 1.
• 2 Many of the so-called English sources are from Croatian editor, so an implicit conflict exist.
• 3 The name of Gondola when referring to the noble family is definitely prevalent in English sources. What is prevalent is Gundulic when referring to Ivan Gundulic, but not when referring to the family itself.

All these arguments are well developed in this talk page. If someone wants to get involved, I am ready to participate again to the discussion.

PS @Tapered, the issue is not of souverignty. The issue is that Croatian history today tries to demonstrate that from an ethnical perspective Croats have populated and contributed to the culture of the country since ever. It's a young country, so they are in a hurry to have a glorious history.

--Silvio1973 (talk) 20:00, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

From what I can see in the sources provided, only one source explicitly uses only the Latin form of the surname. All other sources mention Gundulic as well as Gondola. Now I wonder (I am quite confused to be honest) what exactly is disputed here? Because what you two talk about has nothing to do with the WP:TITLE which explicitly states even on the very top of the page Article titles should be recognizable to readers, unambiguous, and consistent with usage in reliable English-language sources. So what we are looking here is the most used name in English language. And from the sources it is obviously clear that is the Slavic form of the name. I will leave the dispute tag for now, however if you two don't supply a valid reason for it in due time, it will be removed. And one more thing...I don't know who added these sources in the article but they are coded so horribly and clumsy making the article look like a total mess....Shokatz (talk) 03:59, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

• Galleries are discouraged per MoS. Especially weird, disturbing galleries with no connection to the article text introduced only to push some silly POV.
• Do not insert duplicate coats of arms in black and white, when the colour shield is available right in the infobox (I introduced). I don't see the point of adding the G-G coa here. Ivan Gundulic/Giovanni Gondola is by far the best known member of this family today (per English Google testing), whatever you may think of that; and his most common name, in English and on enWiki, is "Ivan Gundulic". To use any other "label" (you mean "caption") would be POV.

-- Director (talk) 10:24, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

'I don't see the point' isn't a Wikipedian editing criterion.

Your POV editing goes back at least to the edit of 12:18, 11 December 2008 when you falsified the titles/contents of 2 external links, changing "Gondola" to "Gundulic." Today I fixed this POV edit. I think this goes to the heart of the challenge to this article having a neutral point of view. That old, dishonest edit is the opposite of neutral. Tapered (talk) 06:20, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

Oh for gods sake who cares...both names are equally valid. Now while it is established that the variant "Gundulic" is more frequent and thus the title of the article, nothing prevents us from using both versions equally in the article itself. Anyway...I have some other issues with the article....namely the references (which I can fix quickly) but more specifically I am interested in the sources claiming the Romance Dalmatian and Italian (I believe this should have said Latin rather than Italian) variant Gundola and Gundolae. The two sources [19] [20], besides not being coded properly, don't mention either of those variants at all. Shokatz (talk) 06:58, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

I made a cleanup of the article: fixed sources, corrected several grammar mistakes, removed certain unsourced content and removed surplus images. Now let's focus on adding something more relevant to the article, like additional references and content. I have left the POV dispute tag however...since I believe the one who added it should be the one to remove it. Shokatz (talk) 07:33, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

Statistical frequency--where, in scholarly articles? There seem to be 2 branches of this family. What's most important is how they named/styled themselves and how they identified. As I said @ your Talk page, my understanding of Ragusa is an Italic-oriented noble class, increasingly effete and insignificant, and an exclusively Croatian/Slavic body politic. And I have lousy access to secondary works that confirm or deny it. Tapered (talk) 08:17, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

Yes, statistical frequency in English language scholarly works as per WP:TITLE. I thought we settled this already. Now regarding the language used in the Republic of Ragusa, it was a bilingual or even tri-lingual area. However the Slavic shtokavian became the dominant both among the common populace and also among the nobility already as early as 15th century, which can be observed by the sheer number of novels, drama, dictionaries, etc. written in that dialect...mostly by the members of the nobility. This fact alone was the reason why the Ragusan senate decided to forbid all discussion in it within the senate and in the official documents, to prevent it from dying out. So it wasn't really a "Italic-dominated" nobility as you stated, the Dalmatian language and Latin were basically lingua franca of the nobility and which made them stand out as the elite, however they most certainly knew and spoke Croatian shtokavian in day-to-day duties. Besides, even Croatia (the kingdom within Habsburg Monarchy) had Latin language as official all up to 1848, which was almost half a century after the Ragusan Republic was already dissolved. Now, would you tell me what exactly do you still find contentious about this article? Be direct please. Shokatz (talk) 08:51, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

Elite was all multilinguial, and the majority of the written documents were probably in Italian and Latin. And there is no such thing as "Croatian" Štokavian - Štokavian dialect has no ethnic affiliation and is equally Bosniak, Serbian and Montenegrin as it is "Croatian". --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 17:58, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

Sure there is, otherwise there wouldn't be such a thing as Croatian language, referring to the Croatian standard of the Shtokavian dialect. Majority of the official documents were certainly written in Latin or "Italian" since it was the official language. I was referring to the scholarly and literary works which were overwhelmingly written in Croatian Sthokavian. Shokatz (talk) 19:30, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

I'm going to assume for now that using the word "label" instead of "caption" is a common mistake for Italian speakers (even though I know it shouldn't be), and won't become suspicious that certain blocked Italian users editing here made that same error.

What exactly is it that you want, Sig. Tapered? You've got my undivided attention. -- Director (talk) 08:55, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

Can it be named something like House of Gundulić/Gondola ? That seems as the only NPOV naming scheme to me. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 18:03, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

Oh no, completely opposed to such a solution. -- Director (talk) 18:06, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

WP:POVNAMING specifically refers and points to the WP:TITLE. So no, according to the sources available it cannot be named "something like that". Shokatz (talk) 19:30, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

The very miserable thing here is to pretend that the House of Gondola should be named Gundulic under the condition that Gundulic is more prevalent trough a research on Google. This is really average (in Italian would be mediocre). Indeed I am astonished that users pretending to be expert on Wikipedia can defend such methodology. Gundulic is more prevalent after a Google research for other reasons.

Now, looking things with a little more competent approach, the facts are the following. The noble title Gundulic is not used as much frequently as the noble title Gondola. Indeed, in the official documents where the nobility is awarded the version used is Gondola and not Gundulic. So once again I do not understand the argument (other than nationalism) to insist in using Gundulic for this noble family. Of course when dealing with the individuals the more prevalent used version of the name for that specific person should be used (e.g. there is no context that Gundulic should be preferred for Ivan). The same approach should be used for the House of Cervia. --Silvio1973 (talk) 06:05, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

I am sorry that you think it is "miserable" or "mediocre" but it wasn't me (or anyone here) who made these policies. WP:TITLE is clear, the name of the article should be chosen according to it's use in English-language source...and IMO this especially applies to articles such as this when someone is disputing the title of the article itself. It is the only way of resolving ridiculous disputes such as this. Shokatz (talk) 07:15, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

• House of Gondola has 4 hits on Google Books, and House of Gundlic has 7 hits on Google Books. There is only a single hit on Google Scholar - this paper written in 2002 in English by a Croatian no less, which in its abstract consistently uses dual names, in this case Gondola/Gundulić. So neither name is common, or better said more common than the other, and no Wikipedia policy can be applied. So House of Gondola/Gundulić is the way to go. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 10:28, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

So let's recap what you just said: 1. "House of Gundulic" has almost twice the number of uses over "House of Gondola" in English language books but somehow "neither is more common"....hmmm that is an interesting conclusion... 2. "House of Gondola/Gundulic" is supposedly the way to go but what is this family? I don't know any family that had such a surname. It is either "Gondola" or "Gundulic", either it is the Slavic or the Italic variant. Need I point you to WP:TITLE yet again? 3. You claim that "no Wikipedia policy can be applied" which is a ridiculous nonsensical claim...sorry but this article is not some magic wonderland where Wikipedia policies all of a sudden do not apply. Shokatz (talk) 11:48, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Dear Shokatz. Perhaps a clarification is needed. If House of Gundulic is more relevant according to secondary sources, well the article can stay like it is. Indeed it is not the case and I reported my doubts before (please see the long discussion I had with DIREKTOR). Now, about the decision to name the article House of Gundulik following a mere Google research I can only state again that is average (I did not used the word miserable but average for such method). Miserable is the current way to proceed, because the talk has deviated from the objective. However it is average because:

1) It's just a shortcut making abstraction of the actual content of the "research", I beg your pardon query.

2) It does not make any distinction between the prevalence of Gundulic for individuals and Gundulic for the House.

3) End of 2012 with a Google research I found over 15,000 English-language publications with "Gundulic -Wikipedia". In the 15,000 publications we have an Australian vessel, a source in Cyrillic, a jazz festival organised in Gundulic square by MTV, a story about a Public Health Report on a steamship in 1902, another vessel on Lloyd's register of shipping and God knows what else. When restricting the criteria of research around 3,000 results with Gundulic and around 2,000with Gondola.--Silvio1973 (talk) 12:37, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

What counts here is to see which version is used when referring to the House. Well, even Ivo Perić (Jugoslavenska akademija znanosti i umjetnosti) used in his books the romance variant of the name when referring to Francesco Gondola:

• http://books.google.hr/books?ei=EJSRUMyEDqmk4gSlxIH4Cw&hl=it&id=UlgdAQAAMAAJ&dq=inauthor%3A%22Ivo+Peri%C4%87%22&q=gondola#search_anchor
• http://books.google.hr/books?hl=it&id=MSPUAAAAMAAJ&dq=inauthor%3A%22Ivo+Peri%C4%87%22&q=gondola#search_anchor

Or more, at page 47 or this source: [21] we find also "Ghetaldi-Gondola". This document is an official urban plan of the City of Dubrovnik. To test more this fact I have searched on Google "Ljetnikovac Ghetaldi – Gondola" (Mansion Ghetaldi-Gondola) and found 1,980 references [22], of course with most of them being Croatian. I made the same researcg with "Ljetnikovac Ghetaldic – Gundulic" and found only 1 reference [23]. --Silvio1973 (talk) 12:45, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

"When restricting the criteria of research around 3,000 results with Gundulic and around 2,000with Gondola." - And that should have been that. Did you miss when I pointed out WP:TITLE? Also Ivo Peric or whoever is not an English language source and is thus irrelevant. Neither does the name of a ljetnikovac (eng. summer house) or any other name of a hotel, motel, summer house, swinger club or whatever bear any significance to this discussion or the issue in general. Shokatz (talk) 13:08, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

The problem is that English-language sources have negligible coverage of this topic. Any English speaker with interest in this topic is likely to either know or be intimately familiar with Italian and/or Serbo-Croatian sources as well. The policy that you invoke is inapplicable due to scarce number of hits in English-language books and papers. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 15:18, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Sorry but you are not the one who will say what, when and where Wikipedia policies are to be applied and when not. Shokatz (talk) 16:34, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

But the problem is that the policy that you invoke is most possibly inapplicable due to scarce number of attestations. Resorting to a more cumbersome naming scheme, though inadvisable, seems a better choice from the perspective of neutrality. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 17:18, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

How and why is it "inapplicable"? Please cite me the section of WP:TITLE which mentions this...I am really curious. Shokatz (talk) 17:37, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

• WP:TITLE is inapplicable because there is no common name. 4 versus 7 Google Books hits is not a satisfactory divergence. Shokatz, your wording of seven as "twice the number" of four simply demonstrates your partisan handling of this issue. And general Google hits of surname Gundulić vs. Gondola don't matter because they do not refer to the specific entity, i.e. the house that is topic of the article, but the surname in general. The two alternatives are 1) Use dual name as I suggested above 2) do more research involving the common usage of surname of the members of House of Gondola/Gundulić. Statistical claims made by User:Silvio1973 should be checked. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 13:38, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

It is not about a common name but about: Article titles should be recognizable to readers, unambiguous, and consistent with usage in reliable English-language sources. Silvio's claims were already explored as can be seen further above on this page and his claims were already proven to be wrong. The article name is in accordance to the direct citation from WP:TITLE. Shokatz (talk) 14:31, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

But there is no evidence that either House of Gundulić or House of Gondola is "recognizable to readers, unambiguous, and consistent with usage in reliable English-language sources". Both have too few Google hits. So it's best to stick with the neutral naming scheme. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 14:55, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

There is no "neutral naming scheme", titles are decided according to the majority of their use in English language sources. Even if we had 3 sources and two said Gundulic and one said Gondola (or vice versa) it would mean that the one with more hits is prevalent in the English language. It's simple as that. Now I personally don't have a problem with either...I am like one of these sources which use both of them interchangeably. However if you people are unsatisfied with the current title and this entire discussion you can always go for arbitration. Shokatz (talk) 15:09, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

But 7:3 is too little to draw any conclusion. If it were 7,000 vs. 3,000 it would be statistically relevant, but single-digit number of hits proves nothing. The only reason why this topic is notable is due to coverage in non-English sources. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 15:15, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

So you say, I say it is more than enough. As I said if you think this is unsatisfactory you can always ask for arbitration on this issue. Shokatz (talk) 15:26, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

The problem is that your preferred naming scheme is inherently POV, and your arguments are rather inconclusive. Anyway, I've raised the issue at Wikipedia_talk:Article_titles#What_to_do_when_there_is_not_enough_English-language_sources. Perhaps there is some policy or a precedent somewhere. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 15:56, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Honestly I am not really interested in your personal assertions or what you think about my arguments. And BTW since you seem so keen on emphasizing the supposed "nationalist" tone, you should know that I am partially Italian...more specifically from Padova (ex-Venetian Republic)....not that it should be of any importance to you anyway... Shokatz (talk) 16:10, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Well good for you. At any case the name House of Gundulić is still a Croatian-centric POV. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 16:13, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Not according to it's use in English language sources it isn't. Shokatz (talk) 16:31, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

There is total 10 English language attestations of both, which is statistically insignificant. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 17:16, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Ok here you go: 14,000 for gundulic ragusa OR dubrovnik -Wikipedia, and 10,700 for Gondola ragusa OR dubrovnik (with the latter also including some hits for actual gondolas). That's why we have "or Gondola" in the first sentence of the lead. Time and again Ivan Gundulic basically swings the balance in favor of 'Gundulic'. Now can you people give it a rest? Lets not open this old can of killer wasps again over some likely-sock account deliberately stirring-up trouble? Surely you're all not that bored? -- Director (talk) 17:28, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

@ DIREKTOR, the boring thing is that you insist in supporting your choice for Gundulic on the basis of a undetailed / wholesale Google research rather than on analysis of secondary source. Is this a valid method? When it comes to secondary sources referring to the House itself I do not see the difference in quantity. About quality we need an expert in Heraldry. 77.37.131.77 (talk) 22:27, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

What else kind of search would you suggest to cover 30,000+ sources, Mr. Suspicious Italian IP Probably Belonging to the Probable Sock Up There? And no, we do not need an "expert in heraldry": we need to find the most common name in English sources. Period. Especially because "heraldry" has absolutely nothing to do with the issue at hand. -- Director (talk) 01:08, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

--Silvio1973 (talk) 11:00, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

Asked on WT:AT

• I've also asked the question here regarding the naming scheme and received an interesting response. I've completely missed the quality-of-sources argument. I urge everyone to objectively asses this issue. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 02:44, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

Objectively? How do you propose we do that? I can give you my personal opinion however and it boils down to this: my opinion is that all Dubrovnik or rather Republic of Ragusa noble families should be named after their Italic/Latin variants, based on my experience with sources in my study of heraldry regarding these families. We should follow the same principle used on the Republic of Ragusa article. After all Latin and Italian were proscribed as official language there and this was reflected in various heraldic armorial's and manuscripts where the names have almost exclusively shown with their Italic variants (see here). That however doesn't mean the Slavic/Croatian variants should not be put on the same level as the Latin/Italian variants within the article...again as seen on R.of Ragusa article. However if we go by the WP:TITLE and enforce it strictly then the Slavic/Croatian variant takes precedence which I have stressed here several times. There...you have my "assessment"... Shokatz (talk) 06:17, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

• Comment - I came here from WT:AT. While "House of Gondola" gets more raw WP:RS Google Book hits since 1990 (which is the benchmark factor normally) the problem is those hits tend to refer to 10th-15th Century, while from 1500-1600 onwards Latin/Italian ceases to be the language of records and Ivan Gundulić comes to the fore. Since the article covers both periods and one of the the WP:CRITERIA is "consistency" there is a reasonable case for House of Gundulić as title. But WP:TITLE only covers title, the name used in the body of the article should probably be Italian/Latin up until the flowering of Croatian-language sources. In ictu oculi (talk) 09:49, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

@Shokatz et all. This article is relatively minor, although not that when dealing with the history of the Republic of Ragusa. Nevertheless the issue is not minor and is assorted of a nationalist/POV approach that is detrimental to the correct rappresentation of sources. Although DIREKTOR has a different opinion (and perhaps the time has come that he learns to deal with the others owning them more respect) this is also an heraldic issue, but what is more important it is not possible to decide for an article of this small relevance trough a Google research. Indeed we should go trough secondary sources (that I reported several times before and I would be pleased if they are checked and after acquired as facts in this discussion). Now, in the few sources available in English the Romance (and please let's stop using the word Italian because Italy did not even existed) form is used and everytime it is dealt with the name of the noble family the romance version is used. Indeed this is the same issues as for the House of Cervia or the House of Bona and in this last case the romance version was preferred. In a nutshell what I suggest to everyone is to list and (and possibly link) English secondary sources treating this House) and we will decide on the basis of quality/quantity and denifinitely with priority to those more recent. Please do not hesitate to comment. --Silvio1973 (talk) 11:00, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

Lets be blunt: Silvio is an Italian-nationalist POV-pusher who goes around the project searching for areas where he believes Italy has been "wronged" and then posts masses of posts in bad grammar that ignore most of Wikipedia's policies ("heraldry expert"?) in pushing a pro-Italian bias. His English skills are such that eventually he doesn't bother reading user responses, and just continues to post his views (e.g. here I already pointed out to him that "heraldry" has nothing to do with this, yet on he goes..). Imo as a serious discussion is now unfolding, users ought to be aware of this editing pattern, all of which is all too easily corroborated with diffs and specific examples (indeed - even on this talkpage alone).

Silvio, under no circumstances will I acquiesce to turning this into some absurd link dropping contest. If you want to play - you will have to play with yourself. Just try not to clog this talkpage with your useless sections as you do everywhere you show up. Play on your talkpage or your sandbox if you must, please, and then link us the results of your (completely unbiased) search. -- Director (talk) 12:15, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

• Comment Imo its a mistake to regard only the hits that use "House of" Gondola/Gundulic, as that does not reflect the actual usage of the family name. The current title uses that format solely for consistency with other Ragusan noble family articles, and its questionable whether it should remain at all (I just couldn't think of anything better). The point is that, as far as I can tell, "Gundulic" is consistently more common when referring to this family or its members ([24][25]). -- Director (talk) 11:50, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

DIREKTOR, why you do not try to concentrate more on the edits rather than on the editor? I do not understand why you are so aggressive, but really this does not help things moving forward. Here we try to understand trough analysis of secondary sources what is the title that should be given to the article. This sound a much more constructive way to decide than a Google research. And your contribution is welcome. So far, what I caould find is that three very recent sources, all edited by English/American universities, prefer (or indeed use exclusively) the romance version of the name. --Silvio1973 (talk) 12:26, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

You mean I should "learn" not to comment on users? Like you?

The issue is that your refusal to acknowledge Wikipedia naming policy is disruptive. That there are tens of thousands of references to this family in published sources. And that you are (very transparently) trying to push some alternate "method" of determining the commonname that might allow you to skirt the fact that the term you're pushing is consistently less common in every SET. Any method ("heraldry experts", link-posting contests, etc..). Please stop it, its annoying more than anything else. -- Director (talk) 12:31, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

DIREKTOR, you cannot remove from the talk page any part of the discussion just because you do not like it. And by the way other people already contributed. Can you explain the reason of your this violence? We are trying to move things forward. I do not understand why you are so aggressive, but really this does not help things moving forward. If you think that I am disruptive report me and leave things follow their flow, but please understand you cannot make justice by yourself. --Silvio1973 (talk) 12:26, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

Its not a part of the discussion, its just you insulting everyone's intelligence by assuming people can't see through what you're doing. Let me guess! In a while, you will conclude that there are obviously more sources in favor of Gondola, because you posted more? Well of course! Obviously this title is just a nationalist conspiracy, and your brilliant method has revealed to us how stupid we were to research tens of thousands of sources by any other method than linking them here, one by one by one...

Take the nonsense to your talkpage, please... At least try to avoid messing up the discussion with useless sections, for once. Because if you can post sections - so can I. -- Director (talk) 12:50, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

DIREKTOR, firstly stop offending me because I have always been polite to you. And please moderate yourself. Speaking of nationalist conspiracy because I am trying to put the secondary sources on the table rather than using on a "wholesale" Google research is highly inappropriate, to say the less. The second one is not so much a request. And of course you can post sections, but name it correctly. It is not my context. Already two users already participated and I hope more will do it.--Silvio1973 (talk) 12:57, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

I apologize, but to see you after all these months still pushing for the same individual ref posting contest is, to me personally - beyond annoying. Its WP:ICANTHEARYOU. -- Director (talk) 14:57, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

Secondary sources

====List of sources House of Gundulic====

• Francis W. Carter, Dubrovnik (Ragusa): a classic city-state 1972 - Page 506 "The most celebrated of all the Dubrovnik poets is Ivan (Divo Franov) Gundulić (Giovanni Gondola) born in Dubrovnik, 1589 (?) and died there, 1638. He was born into the noble Gundulic-Gondola family and received his first schooling in ..."
• Lovett Fielding Edwards, The Yugoslav Coast 1974 - Page 250 "Ivan Gundulić (Gondola), 1589-1638, came from a famous Dubrovnik patrician family, several of whose members were renowned in Dubrovnik letters. He himself died as Rector of the republic. His greatest work, the epic poem Osman is ..."

====List of sources House of Gondola====

• Virgina Cox, The Prodigious Muse 2011 John Hopkins University Press - Page 15 "Discorso sopra le metheore d'Aristotile is prefaced by a lengthy dedicatory letter by hif wife, Maria Gondola (Mara Gundulić) ..."
• David Rheubottom, Marriage and Politics in 14th century Ragusa 2010 - Oxford University Press - Page 73 "In the fifteenth century, the period that I am concerned with, the top ten casate according to Krekić's criteria were (in order): The Goce, Gondola, Bonam, Georgio, Resti, Sorgo, Poca, Zrieva, Mence and Zamagno ) - Page 113 "When she was betrothed to Paladin Marin de Gondola..."
• Fernand Braudel, The Mediterrean World in the age of Philip II - Volume II 1995 - University of California Press - Page 1332 "House of Gondola, a rich merchant family of Ragusa"
• Norman M. Naimark, Holly Case, Yugoslavia and Its Historians: Understanding the Balkan Wars of the 1990s 2006 - Stanford Univerity Press - Page 56 "Franciscus de Gondola wrote to the Ragusan government..." - page 234 "Marinus de Gondola has eight sons..."

Yeah. Please don't indulge Silvio1973 in this pointless exercise... -- Director (talk) 13:07, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

It is not a pointless exercise. It is called research. And research is work. Please respect it, even if you do not like it. --Silvio1973 (talk) 13:56, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

It is entirely and completely pointless. -- Director (talk) 16:49, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. Consensus is very clear. → Call me Hahc21 02:58, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

---

House of Gundulić → House of Gondola – I am posting this to bring it to a wider and more neutral audience. I am neutral on the move. Participants are reminded to abide by WP:NPA and note WP:ARBEE. In ictu oculi (talk) 13:01, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose. This is our long-standing title for a reason. The Italian form, so far as I have been able to tell, is consistently less common in published sources. Every SET that's been attempted indicates the family name appears more often in the "Gundulic" form in modern secondary literature. Gundulic -Wikipedia gives us 72,300 hits. For further example:

• Gundulic Dubrovnik OR Ragusa: 13,900 Google Books hits
• Gondola Dubrovnik OR Ragusa: 10,700 GB hits
• Gundulic family Ragusa OR Dubrovnik 529 hits
• Gondola family Ragusa OR Dubrovnik 485 hits

This will, I believe, become further obvious as long-standing proponents of the Italian format begin to advocate various other home-cooked "methods" besides serious research as the "obvious" way to go.. Its usually close, but that's why we have "or Gondola" right up there in the first sentence of the lead, and in the infobox. Yes, SETs are not supreme, but I'd say its certainly inappropriate to go with the less known term when there's no reason to do so. -- Director (talk) 13:13, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

• Agree. How can be qualified of "Home-cooked method" the decision to read the available secondary sources rather than deciding after a mere Google research? Have you forget that one of the principle of Wikipedia is to go for quality not for quantity? Is it possible to claim that a Google research taking a few minutes is more appropriate that an extensive reading of secondary sources? And by the way, it is possible that the analysis of secondary sources will confirm the current name of the article. But the fact that at least 4 reputable English/American universities use the romance version of the name in books edited in the last 15 years justifies a more careful analysis of the matter. --Silvio1973 (talk) 13:26, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

I'm all for careful research and reading and in-depth analysis and so forth - when there's something to analyze. Pls explain to me what is it that you're "analyzing"? Why would we need to read the entire reference, when the question is simply whether the source uses the Italian form or "Gundulic"?

As I said, I will be honest - to me this looks like you're just trying to somehow continue pushing for the Italian name without any real indication that its more common. Its like you're proposing we should just start posting refs here in some sort of pointtless "contest". Here, pick any one of these 72,000 sources (or these 38,000) and imagine I just posted it alongside your two or three. When you reach 72,001 we will perhaps have something relevant. -- Director (talk) 13:36, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

• Note: To have only' English-languge results in Google Books search add &lr=lang_en in the URL. The resulting figures are very different. However, the exact number of results in that case (at least in my browser) cannot be seen in the web page, but has to be looked up in HTML code: Right click->View source, then search for the string results (or rezultata in Croatian). --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 15:59, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I encountered that problem when trying to do an exclusively English-language search (as per usual). I thought of searching the code but frankly I can't make heads or tails of it (ctrl+f gives me 16 matches for "results"). I will see if I can't figure it out. Strangely, though, Google's language filter excludes a lot of publications but still includes at least several Serbo-Croatian and Italian sources. I remember, though, that previously when we could do a simple language-filtered search the ratio was about the same (see previous discussions). -- Director (talk) 16:19, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

Yup. 9,290 for Gundulic -Wikipedia. When introducing the 'Dubrovik OR Ragusa' parameter its 2,230 for Gondola and 3,170 for Gundulic (at least as far as I can make it out in the source). Mind you, that's actually a larger relative advantage. -- Director (talk) 16:28, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

• It's 4:1 in favor of Gundulić when filtering for English-only books, so I must oppose as well. Perhaps Gondola is more common in specific types of documents (e.g. of a legal character), but overall Gundulić seems to be too frequent. My ideal solution would be Gundulić/Gondola everywhere. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 17:22, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

That was in place for some time, I think I actually participated then.. or something, maybe I even pushed it through. The thing is, that's really a bad idea with no basis in policy at all. -- Director (talk) 17:42, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

• Comment: I am also neutral on this matter as per my opinion I expressed several times and most explicitly over here. Either is equally valid IMO and has it's valid arguments. Shokatz (talk) 18:44, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

In response to your linked comment I will point out that the "principle used on the RoR article" is WP:COMMONAME, none other. -- Director (talk) 20:07, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

The current issue is exactly the same encountered with House of Bona and I guess the same methodology should be followed. In this respect,if Google has to be used to take a decision, this should be done instructing correctly the search engine (indeed searching House of Gondola/Gundulic because the article is about this). Silvio1973 (talk) 21:43, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

Begging your pardon, what? Silvio, this is enWiki. -- Director (talk) 00:08, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Yes, indeed the article House of Bona is in enwiki. What is your problem?--Silvio1973 (talk) 11:33, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

I am sorry but I find different results (and I could not find anything wrong with the settings of the search engine).

Gundulic Ragusa OR Dubrovnik -Wikipedia[26]: 13,900 results

Gondola Ragusa OR Dubrovnik -Wikipedia [27]: 10,700 results

The ratio Gundulic/Gondola is 1.299. This is too little to make abstraction of the actual quality of the sources, and actually even smaller than the already relative 3170/2230 = 1.422 of DIREKTOR's search. But this is not the only issue. I checked the first 30 results of each search. For Gundulic, 19 of the 30 results make reference to Ivan Gundulic, 2 are unrelated (name of a square in Dubrovnik and name of a vessel), 3 sources are in Serbo-Croatian and the others related to other members of the House. For Gondola, 26 of the 30 make reference to different members the House, 2 to gondolas (the venetian boat) and 2 are in French and Italian.

Conclusion: the overall (slight) prevalence of Gundulic is due to Ivan Gundulic and not to the actual usage of Gundulic for the Noble House. Also the actual quality of the results does not give enough confidence that the ratio 1.299 (already a very tiny advantage) can be used for any decision. IMO I think that when dealing with Ivan Gundulic the romance version of the name should not be used at all (the overall majority of the English books use exclusively the slavik version of the name, indeed the actual name). Conversely when dealing with the family the usage of the romance version of the name is prevalent. Please go trough the results of my or any search posted in this Talk page to be convinced. --Silvio1973 (talk) 11:51, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

The problem is you are not paying enough attention to at least make your posts intelligible. None of what you wrote re Bona is understandable. And you are again not reading user posts. Its incredible that you would say you have "different results" when the exact same ones have been posted twice already, and in this very thread. And then we moved on and found more refined search results that use only English-language hits, and then I mention the difference ratios, etc. Wow. I have to be honest here, since I'm sick and tired of writing these sort of posts whenever you arrive: if reading and writing in English is too much trouble - you should not be editing and discussing on enWiki. Though, come to think of it - we at least have the same numbers.

Ivan Gundulic is the most prominent member of this family in sources, without whom we could even discuss whether this entire article meets NOTE criteria. He is not a member of some other "Gundulic" family that you might classify hits for him as "false". What's next? We scrap all hits for individual family members? Your position makes no sense at all - esp because many "Gondola" hits are predominantly for family members as well (which is kind of natural when talking about a family!). Names of squares etc. named after this family - are also hits for this family. All you're doing is making it clear you're just trying to have your Italian name by any means necessary, constantly shifting your argument.. The end justifies the means, eh? Even when you have to switch them up constantly until you find the right ones? What makes this stranger is that even if you had your way and eliminated 90% of the hits, you still would not be able to find a permutation of search parameters that would have "Gondola" as more prevalent.

You've made your position (and motives imo) clear enough, and so have I. Signing off. -- Director (talk) 14:09, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

@Direktor, my English is certainly not good as yours. But from there to affirm that my posts are not intelligible there is a long shot. However, our positions are clear enough and we also posted the Google searchs (indeed I also provided extracts from secondary sources edited from some of the most English speaking Universities). Now to the community to decide. In the mean time I will appreciate if you concentrate on the edits and not on the editor. Silvio1973 (talk) 09:28, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

• Agree. The number of citations as a criterion for the naming of the article is absurd on the face of it. This is an article about history. The question ought to be, "What did the people of this house/family call themselves, and in what language did they customarily converse?" I don't know the answer to this question. I propose that until someone can cite secondary sources with the answer to this question, that the title remain as it is, and that this discussion remain open. The number of 'itches' in literature confirms only that people writing on the subject prefer the suffix ic. I hope that Wikipedia is mature enough to reject an absurdly mechanical criterion for the naming of historical articles. Tapered (talk) 16:01, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

I see that more needs be said for coherence. Based on my limited knowledge of the history of the area and the since deleted gallery, including headstones and 19th century correspondence, it seems that these people named themselves "Gondola," for the most part. However as Louis Armstrong said, "But, I can't prove it." So, my agreement is provisional, "Until the Real Thing Comes Along." (I love to use American popular song references for illustration!) Tapered (talk) 16:15, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Satirical Commentary on Issue Fr/ 'L Osservatoric Romanic:

Recently Il Papic Francescic I criticized the Italik regions of Venetic and Istric and the cities of Venezic and Triestic for their overly commercial and ruthlessly capitalist lifestyle and outlook.

In an unrelated announcement the Pontiff announced that he would not summer at Castel Gondolfic this year; rather, he'll visit the resort of Dubrovnia (formerly known as Ragusic).

At the risk of belaboring the obvious, this is a satire on the sort of revisionist linguistic history which I believe is practiced on this page—instead of attempting find out what happended and when. Tapered (talk) 20:55, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Banner

@DIREKTOR, I also want to remove this POV banner but only after an agreement is reached. However, apart a doubtful Google search (that I cannot reproduce) I have seen so far no evidence justifying that the Slavik variant of the name should be used for this House. Opposed to that search I have reported citations from reputable secondary English sources. Again: we need to compare the quality of secondary sources and not just operating with Google. I am nowhere accepting the dominance of a Google search over the analysis of secondary sources. This would be against a basic principles of Wikipedia. Please also note that Wikipedia has become so popular on the web that Google search (even trough Google books) are at big risk of WP:CIRCULAR. Silvio1973 (talk) 11:28, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

That's not how tags work. As I already explained to you several times, tags are not there to stay until everyone agrees. They are there to denote an actual dispute. When a POV dispute is not ongoing, the tag is not justified. Otherwise practically every article on Wikipedia would be tagged...

As for the rest, it doesn't warrant a response at this point. You "analyze" nothing, you merely list sources which mention the name you support. Nor is it necessary to "analyze" anything here, when all we're looking at - is simply the prevalence of one term over another in published sources. To suggest that we should compete over who can list more sources here is laughable and absurd, as is the idea that SETs are "against basic principles of Wikipedia" or whatever. Do not restore the tag. -- Director (talk) 14:23, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

DIREKTOR, fortunately not on each article on Wikipedia there are disputes such as this one. I am sorry but you cannot pretend to have the article your way, just because you like it. Other people in this Talk page have expressed doubts about your methodology. I am reverting the tag not because I like it, but merely because the discussion is not over. I believe at this stage we should enter a 3O or a RfC (better because more than two parties were involved in the discussion). --Silvio1973 (talk) 09:34, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

The article is the way it is because the "Slavik" name is more common in English-language sources. As long as that remains the case, this will be the title. The Republic of Ragusa article uses the Latin/Italian variant because its more common. Should I post six sources that use "Republic of Dubrovnik" and demand the article be moved? No. Because I'm not a rabid nationalist POV-pusher who wants his own language to supersede other languages because he likes it more. Also its because I don't want to be laughed at as a silly person who doesn't understand the policies and rules of the project he's a part of. -- Director (talk) 20:29, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

RfC: House of Gundulić / House of Gondola, which version of the name is more prevalent in English sources?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

There is an ongoing discussion on House of Gundulić. The House of Gondola/Gundulić are a noble House from the Republic of Ragusa. Gundulić is the slavik version of the name, Gondola is the romance. Currently the article is named according to the slavik variant of the name of this noble family. It is indeed true that a search on Google Books shows the slavik version (Gundulić) prevalent over the romance (Gondola), but the advantage is very tiny (13,900 / 10,700 = 1.299).

• Gundulic Ragusa OR Dubrovnik -Wikipedia[28]: 13,900 results
• Gondola Ragusa OR Dubrovnik -Wikipedia [29]: 10,700 results

Such a tiny advantage justifies to check the consistency of the secondary sources (Indeed this should be always the preferred criterion). I could find at list four very recent (less than 15 years old) English sources from English/American scholars and edited by English/American universities preferring the romance version of the name.

• Virgina Cox, The Prodigious Muse 2011 John Hopkins University Press - Page 15
• David Rheubottom, Marriage and Politics in 14th century Ragusa 2010 - Oxford University Press - Page 73
• Fernand Braudel, The Mediterrean World in the age of Philip II - Volume II 1995 - University of California Press - Page 1332
• Norman M. Naimark, Holly Case, Yugoslavia and Its Historians: Understanding the Balkan Wars of the 1990s 2006 - Stanford Univerity Press - Page 56 "

The sources supporting the slavik variant of the name does not seem such as good in quality, although I am not sure because very simplistically the discussion was more about Google search vs. secondary sources, rather than secondary sources vs. secondary sources. Other users have participated to the discussion but a majority in favour of one side did not arise, NOR consensus did. I hope this RfC will help to find a solution.

The whole discussion is available at Talk:House of Gundulić#Requested move Silvio1973 (talk) 10:15, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

This is WP:STICK disruption, Silvio. No one will respond. Do not restore the tag. -- Director (talk) 19:31, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

If there is no discussion here in a couple days, I'm removing the tag. Its the wrong tag anyway. The very idea of posting an RfC after an RM has failed is ridiculous. -- Director (talk) 00:19, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

Hello DIREKTOR, I also think no-one will respond. Even on matter of bigger importance such as the Istrian Exodus it was difficult to have some participation. Very simplistically because there is on Wikipedia a major disproportion between users and active contributors. However, qualifying my edits of disruptive and nationalist conspiracy is really excessive. Perhpas you do not really think what you write, but your wording is not appropriate.

It is indeed very possible that I am wrong, but you cannot pretend that a Google search is more valuable than quality English secondary sources. I remember that Wikipedia is not a dictature of the majority. And it's not a Google dictature neither. --Silvio1973 (talk) 09:57, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

• You are both wrong, because I will respond. Sorry Silvio1973, but this is not the right way to overturn a requested move. This is. Your other option is to wait a while (I would give it a couple of months at least) and see if consensus has changed. If you do bring it up again I would recommend bringing some new arguments/data to the table. AIRcorn (talk) 10:02, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Dear Aircorn, we are both wrong, but you just wrote why I am wrong. What you have done is fair. You could at least write why DIREKTOR is wrong. Perhaps because he pretends that a google search is more valuable than the analysis of the secondary sources? Silvio1973 (talk) 20:50, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

He did say why I was wrong. And, to my surprise, I have to admit I was. Still, its been a month now. -- Director (talk) 22:08, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

When I have time I will follow Aircon's recommendation. Direktor, for me the issue goes beyond this article. It's of principle. 'Wholesale' Google searchs cannot be valuable than analysis of secondary sources. And yes, one month was enough. --Silvio1973 (talk) 05:42, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

You do not "analyze" anything, Silvio, you just list them here on the talkpage instead of linking to them. You can think and do whatever you like, but you will not overturn Wikipedia policy. By the way, you do not appear to understand what I meant above, nor what Aircorn meant when he said I was wrong. -- Director (talk) 09:46, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Well, it is still better than just making a Google count. However, I still do not understand why you are so aggressive. If you were not from the Balkans I would be offended by the way you talk to others (not just to me). But looking to the last 70 years of former Yugoslavia I understand why you do not find peace. Basically, because you do not need it.

Now I am busy but as soon as possible I will ask for a Move review. In the meantime Dear Direktor, take a break. Wikipedia is not Vukovar. Silvio1973 (talk) 11:51, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

A thread has been posted on WP:ANI about the above comment. -- Director (talk) 12:31, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article name

First of all, Republic of Ragusa was officially Romance-speaking (with varieties). For conciseness, all patrician Venetian and Ragusan families should be named according to this, let's call it, official standard. "Gundulic" is a Slavizication and neologism.

Gbook hits for those who stress such (-llc -wikipedia):

• "Gondola" "Ragusa" - 242
• "Gundulic" "Ragusa" - 103

alternatively

• "Gondola" "Ragusan" - 128
• "Gundulic" "Ragusan" - 87

alternatively

• "Gondola" "Dubrovnik" - 226
• "Gundulic" "Dubrovnik" - 202

and note that "de Gondola" gets 258 hits, while "Gundulic" gets 293; and if we would have deciphered (due to ambiguity) what "Gondola" would have gotten, once again, it would be much higher that "Gundulic".--Zoupan 07:46, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

Sure it was, but that is not the question I've asked you...my question was: do you see the discussions and requests to move this page and how it ended up before? While Wikipedia is encouraging bold moves (and this is certainly one) in this case where the history shows the delicate nature of status quo, you should have first made an enquiry with all participating parties above and then act accordingly. Now you have potentially opened a can of worms. I support the move...as I do with all Dubrovnik families (my opinion is that they all should indeed be under their latinized variants due to official language) but this is just asking for trouble. Don't say I didn't warn you... Shokatz (talk) 07:59, 13 December 2014 (UTC)