Talk:Gojira (band)/GA2

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Reviewer: Jens Lallensack (talk · contribs) 16:25, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]


Reviewing now. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 16:25, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • I hope you are still up to working on this? If so, I would appreciate a brief note! --Jens Lallensack (talk) 16:45, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

First comments

  • By then, the Duplantier brothers were playing in metal bands which they had started two years earlier. – But you never give a date in that section! And: Was "Gojira" one of these metal bands?
  • Hmm, that's complicated and we have a contradiction in sources. It's not public knowledge when exactly the band formed - judging from the age of the brothers, it was around 1995-1996, and the band had a name in 1996 according to a source. But for the band to have been playing in it for two years and have the name chosen by '96 is impossible for the age that is given here. Honestly, I think it is not a necessary detail and I have done away with it for now. If you have another opinion or request, please let me know. dannymusiceditor oops 23:00, 6 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I was mostly concerned with text flow ("then" and "two years earlier" vaguely indicate some timeline but no point in time they ultimately relate to). But if this is all there is, this is ok. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 17:28, 7 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hi. Your questioning is due to the way the information is written. The dates before 1996 are unknown, all we know is their age, so I followed the information available. Gojira always only gave the date 1996, no date 1994 or 1995 was mentioned in interviews, that's why I never liked having a section that precedes that of (1996−2002) and I chose to mention it that way. The first paragraph is the imminent stage of creating the band Godzilla, brothers Joe and Mario Duplantier were aged 19 and 14, respectively. In source 7, Joe Duplantier said: He [Mario] started a band when he was 12 years old, and I was 17. (This is why I wrote: By then, the Duplantier brothers were playing in metal bands which they had started two years earlier.) Duplantier gives the information that they were playing in pre-Godzilla bands and still during the creation of the latter: They were 10 times better than my band at the time. The first time he touched the drums, he was very, very good. He was better than the drummer I had at the time. So after school, I would jam with him. And we started to have our own band on the side called Godzilla [Gojira is Godzilla's Japanese name]. That is why I found this little piece of information about the pre-Godzilla period relevant, because it's very old, very underground, and it shows that the Duplantier brothers had little experience before 1996, at a very young age. DannyMusicEditor, do you think that a section (1994-1996) is necessary? --Oroborvs (talk) 01:26, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would have to see what it looked like to know for certain if I like that idea. Try putting in the change, and I or Jens will give feedback. dannymusiceditor oops 06:28, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • I made a passage at the very beginning of the article, reshaped in chronological order. I wrote "Background and formation" as a sub-section title, and it corresponds to the Joe Duplantier interview, who gave no pre-1996 dates, only their ages.--Oroborvs (talk) 16:54, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Done Finally, I added a range of dates before 1996, after a day of questioning and trying several options. The subsection Background and formation (1993−1996) improves the text flow and chronology and it is no longer vague. --Oroborvs (talk) 18:58, 9 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • In March 2004, the band played with Loudblast, No Return, Scarve, The Old Dead Tree and Garwall at La Locomotive in Montmartre.[33] A reviewer described the Gojira concert as "timed, with millimeter precision, of a phenomenal power ... With a gigantic sound! ... the Landais cataclysm has just struck at La Locomotive".[34] The Swiss grindcore band Nostromo toured with them. – Is that touring with Nostromo a separate event? If so, it lacks context?
  • Nostromo toured with Gojira in 2004 in a separate event (I saw Nostromo open for Gojira in France in 2002). --Oroborvs (talk) 01:26, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Done.--Oroborvs (talk) 18:58, 9 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • The former GA review noted that "The prose is really challenging", and I, too, think that the red thread is not always clear (examples above). Did you attempt to rectify the issues mentioned in the previous review?
  • I sent it to WP:GOCE prior to GA nomination. I also cleaned up some areas myself throughout the waiting period. Not only have we attempted to rectify the issues, but the article went over a complete overhaul - see the diffs between now and the time it was delisted. Oroborvs and I would be happy to iron out any and every prose issue, but as noted in the nomination, their native language is French, so it may not be perfect first read. dannymusiceditor oops 22:37, 6 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Because the sources are French; there are subtleties in both languages. I must add details to make it easier for you to read and I will take into consideration what you indicated below. --Oroborvs (talk) 01:26, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • The use of announcements from "Blabbermouth" appears to be the main reason why the article was previously delisted as GA. I still see plenty of references to that website. Can you demonstrate a consensus that this meets WP:reliable sources? What about the other sources that have been previously questioned?
  • Blabbermouth is a long-accepted and perfectly reliable online outlet for heavy metal news. The article's delisting had little to do with the use of that source in particular and was much more because there were a variety of unreliable sources or an outright lack of any, not to mention the article was not as comprehensive as it should have been. Drmies had a personal dislike of the source material, but it is regularly and routinely used on Wikipedia. dannymusiceditor oops 22:37, 6 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • All right, I see it is used in some FAs at least. I was just asking. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 22:59, 6 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Some sentences seem like excessive detail to me, e.g. The album was available for streaming on the band's official YouTube channel two days before its release. – I think it would be easier to read if it would be more concise (see also WP:audience); and you have the album articles after all for the details, where interested people can read them. Some sections are extremely long, and I think that people would rather appreciate concise summary style in this overview article, since reading the whole thing at this length simply takes a lot of energy. Can I have your point of view on this, too? --Jens Lallensack (talk) 16:45, 5 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would rather present a densely detailed article and discuss what to cut/streamline than be short-handed. I realize it is very long, but cutting material is easier than building. If you'd like to do it a section at a time, I'd be happy to wait. I'm here to do what needs to be done. dannymusiceditor oops 23:29, 6 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • The first two sections have valuable information that only French sources can provide; that's what I can tell you. This sentence is not so necessary, I could delete it: The album was available for streaming on the band's official YouTube channel two days before its release. --Oroborvs (talk) 01:26, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • and supported Cannibal Corpse, Edge of Sanity, Impaled Nazarene, and Immortal in France in September of that year.[11][15] – is this a single gig, or a tour? The following sentence speaks of "the" Immortal tour, so this is it? But then, the other bands would support as well? This could be made clearer I think.
  • Godzilla opened for Immortal on a French tour. Regarding the other bands, by inference, Godzilla could only open in France for Cannibal Corpse, Edge of Sanity, and Impaled Nazarene which were established bands. I will improve the sentence. --Oroborvs (talk) 01:26, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Done. Godzilla opened for each of these bands; there is no more info than that. I added that Godzilla opened for Immortal during a ten-date tour in France.--Oroborvs (talk) 18:58, 9 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "[t]he door was clearly closed" – if this is an translation of a French quote, then how can there be a "t" missing? Just wondering.
  • French: La porte était clairement fermée. Translation: The door was clearly closed. So I wrote: Joe Duplantier said that "[t]he door was clearly closed". --Oroborvs (talk) 01:26, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • I fear I don't understand – in many other places, you start the quotes with an upper case letter in the mid of a sentence, e.g. their sound and music was "A mixture of Metallica and Gojira". And this is ok. But why masking the "t" here, instead of just writing "The door was clearly closed"? --Jens Lallensack (talk) 21:01, 8 January 2022 (UTC
  •  Done I saw this on an article, I thought it was less ugly than the original capital letter in the middle of the sentence, hence the brackets, because I modified the original quote. The copy-editor did not touch the [t]. But since it's questionable, I decided to remove these brackets. --Oroborvs (talk) 23:18, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • I knew I read this somewhere; MOS:CONFORM: It is not normally necessary to explicitly note changes in capitalization. However, for more precision, the altered letter may be put inside square brackets: "The" → "[t]he".--Oroborvs (talk) 18:58, 9 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • OK, thanks. The important point here is as always: We need to be consistent. If capital letters are changed in other quotes in this article, they should be changed in this one as well. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 19:10, 9 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • their way out was to develop a structure – "structure" can mean anything; is there a more specific word? "was to built up their own infrastructure" or something?
  • Instead structure themselves, develop beyond a band, a stronger framework, by creating their own label Gabriel Editions. I didn't know how a native English would write it. Words don't necessarily have the same weight in both languages; it is a bit delicate sometimes. --Oroborvs (talk) 01:26, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Partly done: I changed it to: their way out was to consider an independent framework. I hope it is understandable.--Oroborvs (talk) 18:58, 9 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Quotes always need to be attributed. Some are not, so we don't know who said that:
    • "The album "made significant waves"
    • "to produce [their] music from A to Z"
    • "just five days' break"
    • "on the computer in the tour bus"
  • I will indicate it. --Oroborvs (talk) 01:26, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Done I have arranged these four above and found some others non-attributed.--Oroborvs (talk) 18:58, 9 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • master ... the grind parts – does the ellipsis need brackets ([…]) if they are not part of the quote? Also appears in other quotes. See WP:Quotations.
  • The copy-editor (who did a great job) marked "..." as quotes parts, but I am assuming it should be: [...]. Charlie Chaplin, a Featured Article, has this syle of ellipsis "...". --Oroborvs (talk) 01:26, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think either version is fine, but it should ideally be consistent. Either with or without brackets. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 21:04, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Done I decided to stay consistent with this style: "...", because the copy-editor did it this way. Also, the same style appears on Featured Articles such as Elvis Presley and The Beatles.-Oroborvs (talk) 23:18, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Le Florida – I wasn't sure what this is, it seems to be a band. Write "The Agen-based band Le Florida" or something similar for clarity?
  • Joe Duplantier, absorbed by other worlds and dimensions and the contemplation of outer space, devoted his time to reading The Celestine Prophecy and books by Baird T. Spalding and other spiritual seekers. – Sentence seems a bit out of place where it is, or is it somehow related to the album?
    It's about the songwriting and the thematic of From Mars to Sirius. --Oroborvs (talk) 01:26, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • he said, "Gojira wants to work with people whose approach is sincere" – Who is "he"? Still Labadie?
  • (who represented Ghost, Mastodon, Slayer,[103] Iron Maiden, Metallica, and Guns N' Roses) – to me, this really feels like too much detail, I get the impression that this is only there to underline the importance of this guy. What does "represented" exactly mean, in any case?
    Yes, because there's no blue link for "John Jackson". The French source stated: John Jackson, an English agent who manages Metallica, Iron Maiden, Guns'n'Roses and produces concerts for Landais abroad. It was to demonstrate that he is known on the metal scene. --Oroborvs (talk) 01:26, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Done. I condensed the whole sentence. --Oroborvs (talk) 18:58, 9 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • On Metacritic, L'Enfant Sauvage received a low review score of 70 (out of 100) and a high review score of 100 – I don't get this, two separate review scores?
  • Its lowest rating is 70 (out of 100) by AllMusic, and its highest rating is 100 (out of 100) by The Guardian. --Oroborvs (talk) 01:26, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Done. I removed the sentence along with Metacritic and added info about The Guardian's review instead. --Oroborvs (talk) 18:58, 9 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • The band again toured worldwide – this needs a date I think.
  • Okay, I will do it. --Oroborvs (talk) 01:26, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Done. They performed live five days after the death of Duplantier's mother, at the Musilac Music Festival on 10 July 2015. --Oroborvs (talk) 18:58, 9 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • On 20 December 2016, Philadelphia's Electric Factory announced a "massive outdoor metal show" with Gojira, Opeth, Mastodon, Eagles of Death Metal, the Devin Townsend Project and Russian Circles for 6 May 2017 – Something I also noted in other places; I think such announcements are not ideal. They take events out of chronology, and the reader is always unsure "did this actually happen or was it only announced?". I would recommend to simply list the performances in chronological order when they took place.
  • Their performance at Hellfest 2019 was made available for streaming on YouTube in November 2020.[205] – Excessive detail.
  • I don't know what to remove. "Youtube"? Maybe DannyMusicEditor would help. Also, I can delete the infos about the live streaming on youtube if it is not necessary. --Oroborvs (talk) 01:26, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not entirely sure I agree with Jens on this one, official entire live performances on YouTube are not common. I suppose it wouldn't hurt too much, but I would see why it was in here to begin with and would not disagree that it was pertinent information. dannymusiceditor oops 06:28, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Leave as is then; I only provide suggestions that may be unreasonable, so please indicate when you are unhappy with something. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 14:49, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • (illustrating Gojira's "global chart impact") – this is editorializing and I would remove this.
    Okay, I will remove it.--Oroborvs (talk) 01:26, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • On 2 March 2004, a demonstration called Avis de KO Social (Social Knockout Notice) was organized – does that mean organized by Gojira?
    No, it was organized by different organizations, which help people such as the unemployed, right to housing, rights of foreigners, Greenpeace, Human Rights League, Act Up, Save the Research, Coordination of Intermittent Workers, the Sud Education Unions, the Magistrate's Union, Amuhf (emergency hospital staff). Gojira were invited. --Oroborvs (talk) 01:26, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Done. I completed the sentence: a demonstration called Avis de KO Social (Social Knockout Notice) was organized by voluntary associations, labor unions, and NGOs to discuss.--Oroborvs (talk) 18:58, 9 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Duplantier brothers formed Empalot (an avant-garde metal–jazz fusion–funk rock band) – its an essential information, I don't think it should be in brackets.
  • In (early) 2003 – again, the brackets don't make sense to me; either "In early 2003" or "In 2003".
  • "early" is not sourced on the article. I found this info in a source not necessarily reliable, but to me, it corresponds to the period before the release of their second album (The Link). At some point, I did not know anymore if I should keep "early" or not. --Oroborvs (talk) 01:26, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
But the reader can't guess why you put it in brackets. I don't think they fulfill the intended function; instead they confuse. If "early" can be unequivocally derived from the sources based on simple math or logic, it is ok to keep it; if not, better remove. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 14:36, 9 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Done. I removed (early) for the reason you give above. --Oroborvs (talk) 18:58, 9 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Three Jurassic-era brittle star fossils, Ophiogojira labadiei, Ophiogojira andreui, and Ophioduplantiera noctiluca, were named after band members; the Royal Society said that their genus was named in honour of Gojira – I doubt that the Royal Society "said" this (I doubt the source is precise here). The scientific paper is scheduled to be published in a Royal Society journal, but there, the authors of the paper provide this information, but they are not most probably not members of the Royal Society. Also note that the paper is not yet published, so these species do not exist yet officially. The preprint of the paper, containing this information, is here: [1].
My main issue here is that the quote was wrongly attributed to the Royal Society, when it should be attributed to Ben Thuy and colleagues (to be published). --Jens Lallensack (talk) 14:49, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • I will therefore rephrase and add the names of the three scientists.--Oroborvs (talk) 16:54, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Done. I removed the Royal Society and added the scientists' names instead. --Oroborvs (talk) 18:58, 9 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • That's everything. The prose turned out to be much better than I had anticipated based on my quick spot checks. Only minor issues. The article tends to go into superlatives, not wasting a chance to point out how big and important the described events where. But I'm not sure if something needs to be done here. Very solid work overall. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 20:12, 7 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Please ping me once the above are addressed, thanks! --Jens Lallensack (talk) 14:37, 9 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Jens Lallensack: Hi. I did my best (everything is indicated above). If necessary, let me know, I will continue tomorrow because it is late now in France. --Oroborvs (talk) 18:58, 9 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Closing note: Thanks for all the fixes, looking good! One small suggestion is to replace "framework" with "infrastructure", but I leave this decision to you. Promoting now. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 19:10, 9 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Jens Lallensack: and @DannyMusicEditor: Thank you very much for your patience and all you have done to help the article reach GA status. I have no doubt that "infrastructure" is a better word. ☺ --Oroborvs (talk) 19:49, 9 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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