Talk:Gertrude Stein/Archive 1

Moved a paragraph submitted by another editor, to a section called "Political Views"

I moved this material to a new section called Political Views, further down in the article. I'm not sure about the source for the second paragraph.

Gertrude was politically ambiguous, but clear on at least two points: she disapproved of unemployment when she had trouble getting servants (Hobhouse, 1975, p.209), and she had "a general dislike of father figures." (Ibid.) As for the unemployed she said,

'It is curious very curious . . . that when there is a great deal of unemployment and misery you can never find anybody to work for you.' 'But that is natural enough . . . because if everybody is unemployed everybody loses the habit of work, and work like revolutions is a habit it just naturally is.'

(Ibid., with citations to Gertrude Stein's words in Everybody's Biography). As for father figures, Gertrude's thoughts and deeds demonstrated a bipartisan disrespect for political father figures:

she disliked Trotsky as much as Franco, and Roosevelt as much as either, and she referred to liberals like Blum as 'people with unhappy childhoods'. It was a position that irritated her friends. When William Rogers sent her a packet of American corn seeds and warned her not to give any of the corn to her fascist neighbours in Bilignin, Gertrude returned the gift with a request: 'please send us unpolitical corn.' Why shouldn't she give her friends the corn, she asked, 'why not if the fascists like it and we like the fascists . . . '.

(Hobhouse, 1975, p. 210, with citation to W.G. Rogers, When This You See Remember Me: Gertrude Stein in Person, Rinehard, New York, 1948).

Other writers have described Stein as a conservative ; she regarded the jobless as lazy, and opposed Franklin D. Roosevelt and his New Deal. She advocated the Nationalist (Francoist) side during the Spanish Civil War. One Stein researcher described her as "a 19th century Republican; in her manners and manner of speech she was Victorian; socially was more liberal than not, with developed individualism coupled with democratic values based in pragmatism; thus at the opening of the German occupation of France she favored collaborative Vichy government, but by the end she did not, having witnessed firsthand the hardship it brought to the peasants." Judy Grahn (1989)(pp.140-41)

deleted

Other writers have described Stein as a conservative ; she regarded the jobless as lazy, and opposed Franklin D. Roosevelt and his New Deal. She advocated the Nationalist (Francoist) side during the Spanish Civil War. One Stein researcher described her as "a 19th century Republican; in her manners and manner of speech she was Victorian; socially was more liberal than not, with developed individualism coupled with democratic values based in pragmatism; thus at the opening of the German occupation of France she favored collaborative Vichy government, but by the end she did not, having witnessed firsthand the hardship it brought to the peasants." Judy Grahn (1989)(pp.140-41)

General Observations about Pinckney2007 Edits

Hello, everyone,

I've been trying to figure out how to best explain my edits in this talk page, and I guess I write to observe that I'm not really editing right now, but I'm filling in some of the gaps in the G.S. biography. I'm plodding through, using primarily James Mellow's biography and Bruce Kellner's companion to G.S. for supports. As to the art collecting, I've relied heavily on a Museum of Modern Art exhibition publication from 1970.

I'm interested in adding some of the Yale photographs to the Wiki open source collection. Specifically the photos of the paintings on the walls at Rue de Fleurus would be a great addition (I've live linked them so far). Advice about how to seek approval for some of these photos would be appreciated. I'm figuring there might be a snafu related to the fact that the interior photos of 27 Rue de Fleurus are full of images that are copyrighted elsewhere.

Pinckney2007 15:09, 18 September 2007 (UTC)Pinckney2007

Here's the section and some of the images in question: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gertrude_Stein#Cezanne.2C_Matisse.2C_Picasso.2C_and_Others (the section)

http://beinecke.library.yale.edu/dl%5Fcrosscollex/photoneg/oneITEM.asp?pid=39002037374031&iid=3737403&srchtype=

http://highway55.library.yale.edu/PHOTONEGIMG/screen/S373/s3737231.jpg

http://highway55.library.yale.edu/PHOTONEGIMG/screen/S373/s3737210.jpg

Pinckney2007 15:12, 18 September 2007 (UTC)Pinckney2007

Man Ray photographs

Of all the pictures of Gertrude Stein, I think the ones by Man Ray are the most incredibly best. Have any of you Stein editors checked on the copyright access/release we would have to obtain to be able to post some of the Man Ray photos? I know some of them are at the Beinecke library. They would add a lot to the flavor of the page, I think. Pinckney2007 23:13, 13 September 2007 (UTC)Pinckney2007

Here are some examples of the Man Ray photographs it would be nice to include on the page:

http://beinecke.library.yale.edu/dl%5Fcrosscollex/brbldl/oneITEM.asp?pid=2003469&iid=1014884&srchtype=

http://beinecke.library.yale.edu/dl%5Fcrosscollex/photoneg/oneITEM.asp?pid=39002037509826&iid=3750982&srchtype=

http://beinecke.library.yale.edu/dl%5Fcrosscollex/photoneg/oneITEM.asp?pid=39002037509958&iid=3750995&srchtype=

http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jconte/Images/Ray_Stein.jpg

http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jconte/Images/Stein_Toklas.gif (I think this is from Man Ray, but I'm not certain).

There's a great one of Alice (apparently coming in from the kitchen), while Gertrude writes at the big table, but I can't get a good link, except on the cover of Autobiography of Alice B. Toklas: http://beinecke.library.yale.edu/dl%5Fcrosscollex/photoneg/oneITEM.asp?pid=39002037243442&iid=3724344&srchtype=

Smelly

The following edit, [[1]], appears to be vandalism. Hyacinth 20:48, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Sure looks like it to me.. She had a husband??? Not in any other bios of her I've read. She was deported by Teddy Roosevelt?? Again, not in other bios. Besides, she was a native-born citizen; how could she be deported? Will look further, but think it should be reverted..

Very strange case, though. Doesn't look like most vandalism. Too Old 04:30, 2005 May 4 (UTC)

Just noted the discrepancy of dates: 1903 - family moved back to Germany; later she moved to US and became politically active; 1903 - she was deported to Germany by Teddy Roosevelt, because of political activism. It gets reverted.. Too Old 04:42, 2005 May 4 (UTC)

I would't worry about the dates; the changes were simple vandalism. Her father Daniel was a clothier, not a mill worker. She lived in the US not Germany, she was born in 1874, not 1847, she left the US of her own volition, she didn't marry any man, she wasn't a Nazi, and she didn't keep her rat feces in mason jars. Etc. - Nunh-huh 04:50, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

stein date of death

The article for July 27 lists Stein as being one of the people that died on that date. The article on Stein lists her date of death as July 29.

Some suggested edits

Hi. This is my first time on Wiki, so please bear with me and correct me if I do anything wrong. I guess I'm picking poor Gertrude for my editorial guinea-pig - hope she won't mind. Hope you won't also. Anyway, just some suggestions mostly about style, fitting enough as Gertrude was above all a stylist.

In 1902 she moved to France during the height of artistic creativity gathering in Montparnasse. From 1903 to 1912 she lived in Paris with her brother Leo, who became an accomplished art critic. Stein, a lesbian, met her life-long companion Alice B. Toklas in 1907; Alice moved in with Leo and Gertrude in 1909. During her whole life, Stein was supported by a stipend from her brother Michael's business.[She lived off a stipend from her father's estate which her brother Michael very capably stewarded and invested. She did not live off her brother Michael's money.]

No problems with the facts, but I feel they could be better presented. (For example, the first sentence reads awkwardly, and the last, leading on to the sentence "She and her brother compiled one of the first collections of Cubist art," implies that Michael, and not Leo, was the art collector). I suggest something like: "Throughout her life, Gertrude was supported by a stipend from her brother Michael[She lived off a stipend from her father's estate which her brother Michael very capably stewarded and invested. She did not live off her brother Michael's money.]. In 1902 she moved to Paris, and from 1903 to 1912 lived at the centre of the Montparnasse art world with another brother, Leo. The pair established an artistic and literary salon, and together they built up one of the first collections of Cubist art, including early works of Pablo Picasso (who became a friend and painted her portrait), Henri Matisse, Andre Derain plus other young painters. A lesbian, in 1907 Gertrude met her life-long companion, Alice B. Toklas, who moved in to the Stein household in 1909." (Incidentally, is it accurate to characterise her collection as being of Cubist art alone? - most of the artists mentioned here were not noted primarily as Cubists. If you agree, the word Cubist could be replaced with 'avant-garde' or something similar).

Extremely charming, eloquent, cheerful and overweight, she had a large circle of friends and tirelessly promoted herself. Her judgments in literature and art were highly influential.

I feel uneasy with the portrayal of GS as a self-promoter. Perhaps she was, but far more important was that she promoted the new artists and writers. Perhaps it could be amended to something like: "Charming, eloquent, cheerful and overweight, she had a large circle of friends from the artisitic and literary worlds and tirelessly promoted those she believed worthy of recognition [Gertrude did not tirelessly promote anyone but herself. She disinterestedly promoted some if opportunity arose, such as Hemingway, and very much promoted some others among friends, such as Picasso ---mostly she listened, lectured, and advised literary young men, but she did not promote them tirelessly.] Her judgements etc etc..".

Ernest Hemingway describes how Alice was Gertrude's 'wife' in that Stein rarely addressed his wife, and he treated Alice the same, leaving the two "wives" to chat. Alice was four foot eleven inches tall, and Gertrude was five foot one inch (Grahn 1989).

This is the second time Alice has been mentioned, so why not move this passage up to join with the first?

Several years later, Alice would contribute money to Faÿ's escape from prison.

Why not use simple past tense: "Several years later, Alice contributed..."?

After the war, Gertrude's status in Paris grew when she was visited by many young American soldiers.

Taken literally, this says that Gertrude's post-war status in Paris (and by inference not elsewhere) rose after the war due to the visits from the young GIs. I don't think this is what you mean to say. If, as I suspect, you mean that her status in the US rose because of the GI visits, then it could be amended to something like: "Gertrude and Alice returned to Paris after the war, where her fame in the US was spread by a steady stream of young GIs calling at the Stein salon."

Ok that's it - just some suggestions. Let me know if this is out of line, ok?

Incidentally, on the Lost Generation, I recall reading how GS first heard this expression from the lips of a garage owner expressing exasperation with a feckless apprentice: "C'est un generation perdu!" GS gave it an entirely new dimension. Unfortunately I can't remember where I read this - I thought it was in Janet Flanner and just checked, but it's not...maybe it was Hemingway...?

Major part of the Stain's biography is merely a bunch of sensless sentences. e.g.: Extremely charming, eloquent, and cheerful, she had a large circle of friends and tirelessly promoted herself. Her judgments in literature and art were highly influential. In the summer of 1931, Stein advised the young composer and writer Paul Bowles to go to Tangier, where she and Alice had vacationed. - how do these three sentences connect to each other in one para? 67.142.130.25 02:08, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

A few more edits

The following italicized words seem like a breach of neutrality to me (Found under "Writings") :

Though Stein influenced authors such as Ernest Hemingway and Richard Wright, as hinted above, her work has often been misunderstood. Composer Constant Lambert (1936) naively compares Stravinsky's choice of, "the drabbest and least significant phrases," in L'Histoire du Soldat to Gertrude Stein's in "Helen Furr and Georgine Skeene" (1922), specifically: "Everday they were gay there, they were regularly gay there everyday," of which he contends that the, "effect would be equally appreciated by someone with no knowledge of English whatsoever," apparently entirely missing the pun frequently employed by Stein. Pilaman, 04 December

Lesbian

While Stein's sexuality is certainly important and worth mentioning, I don't think putting it in the list of descriptions "American writer, poet, feminist, playwright, lesbian" is apropriate. Hemingway isn't described as "American novelist, short story writer, journalist, and heterosexual." For that matter, Alan Ginsberg isn't described as "American beat poet and homosexual." As such, I'm removing it.24.19.157.12 06:44, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Rearranging

Hey Gertrude fans!

I went ahead and made some changes to the Early Life section before realizing that might come across as a little bit presumptuous of me. My intention was to improve the flow of the first few paragraphs, which included some pretty drastic rewordings. Take a look and see what you think.

Jared Hawkley 04:47, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

We interrupt this meeting of the Gertrude Stein Fan Club to bring you ...

Just for you young pups out there who have very little context by which to judge Ms. Stein's works by, here's a contemporary review I ran across by no less than the redoubtable James Thurber, who had this to say about Stein:

“ Anyone who reads at all diversely during these bizarre nineteen twenties cannot escape the conclusion that a number of crazy men and women are writing stuff which remarkably passes for important composition among certain persons who should know better. Mr. Stuart P. Sherman, however, refused to be numbered among those who stand in awe and admiration of one of the most eminent of the idiots, Gertrude Stein. He reviews her Geography and Plays in the Aug. 11 issue of the Literary Review of the New York Evening Post and arrives at the conviction that it is a marvellous and painstaking achievement in setting down approximately 80,000 words which mean nothing at all. ”

(From Collecting Himself, Michael Rosen, ed.)

And yes, this is a fairly elliptical way of pointing out why the hell isn't there one word in this article critical of Stein's writing? +ILike2BeAnonymous 07:04, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

See: Wikipedia:How to edit a page.

But first you should read the article again (Gertrude Stein#Writings):

Composer Constant Lambert (1936) naively compares Stravinsky's choice of "the drabbest and least significant phrases" in L'Histoire du Soldat to Gertrude Stein's in "Helen Furr and Georgine Skeene" (1922), specifically: "Everyday they were gay there, they were regularly gay there everyday," of which he contends that the "effect would be equally appreciated by someone with no knowledge of English whatsoever"

I may be a member of the Gertrude Stein club but I am a strong proponent of criticism being included in Wikipedia articles. See: Wikipedia:Criticism.

Your criticism of the article does, however, point to a worse gap in the article. There is not enough discussion of Stein's reception. Hyacinth 00:24, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Categories

Just made some categories for GS - if you make a separate article for a play/opera, poem or book, please remember to drop a category tag at the bottom of it. I'm going to start a stub on Doctor Faustus. Ta, DionysosProteus 23:17, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Sources

Please return the primary sources, complete with bibliographic details and ISBN numbers, so that they may be referred to. There is a discussion about Stein's drama occurring elsewhere on the site that references them. Thanks DionysosProteus 03:37, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Sources

This is my first wiki entry so I'm a little bit uncertain about how to proceed.

I added two secondary sources, one of which provides a fuller discussion of the "lost generation" bit that's referred to earlier in this talk section. I edited the article to reflect this information. The source is James R. Mellow, Charmed Circle at 273-74.

I was just looking through the wiki article references to the artists who frequented Stein's salon in the 20's and see Guillaume Apollinaire, who Stein credited in keeping the pre-WWI salon together. During WWI, Apollinaire received a critical head injury the treatment for which affected his health, and he died, of influenza, November 10, 1918, the day before the Armistice was signed. The source is Bruce Kellner, A Gertrude Stein Companion at 144-45.

There were two different salons, really. A pre-WWI salon, and post-WWI salon, with very different primary characters. I can develop this point eventually. I've added in some edits, to reflect that pre-WWI was mostly the famous artists, and post-WWI was mostly the famous writers.

I'd appreciate some guidance about protocol.

Pinckney2007 21:50, 8 September 2007 (UTC)pinckney2007

If you added information from that source you should cite that source in the body of the article (such as "Author Year published, p.Page#). As such you could move it into the References section. Hyacinth 04:27, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Pinckney2007 Thank you for the guidance about citing sources in the discussion and about providing an edit summary. I'm still figuring out the software. I'll eventually get back in to provide edit summaries for the text I have added, with citations to the references books I am using. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pinckney2007 (talk • contribs) 19:48, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Question

Pinckney2007 I'm curious about the requirements for adding images. A number of artists created images of Gertrude Stein, and those images would add a special perspective to the wiki entry.

For example, this image by Picabia would be interesting, as would several others:

http://beinecke.library.yale.edu/dl%5Fcrosscollex/photoneg/oneITEM.asp?pid=39002037292662&iid=3729266&srchtype= —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pinckney2007 (talk • contribs) 00:03, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Pinckney2007 Save material from edit

Politically ambiguous, Stein has been described as a conservative; she regarded the jobless as lazy, and opposed Franklin D. Roosevelt and his New Deal. She advocated the Nationalist (Francoist) side during the Spanish Civil War. Judy Grahn (1989), in what is arguably an aggrandizement of Stein, describes her as "a 19th century Republican; in her manners and manner of speech she was Victorian; socially was more liberal than not, with developed individualism coupled with democratic values based in pragmatism; thus at the opening of the German occupation of France she favored collaborative Vichy government, but by the end she did not, having witnessed firsthand the hardship it brought to the peasants." (p.140-141) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pinckney2007 (talk • contribs) 02:20, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Overview

I added material to the overview paragraph at the beginning of the GStein entry. In my reading, it's become clear that Stein's relationship with her brother Leo was as intense as her relationship with Alice B. Toklas. Together, Gertrude and Leo built the famous art collection. Much of this collection predated Picasso's move to cubism, so I chose the more neutral term of "modern art" in the overview.

Gertrude Stein (February 3, 1874 – July 27, 1946) was an American writer who was a catalyst in the development of modern art and literature. She spent most of her life in France. Her life was marked by two primary relationships, the first with her brother Leo Stein from 1874-1914, and the second with Alice B. Toklas from 1907 until her death in 1946. Stein shared her salon at 27 rue de Fleurus, Paris, first with Leo and then with Alice. Throughout her lifetime, Stein cultivated significant tertiary relationships with ultimately famous members of the avant garde artistic and literary worlds of her time.

--Pinckney2007 11:38, 12 September 2007 (UTC)Pinckney2007

--Pinckney2007 12:18, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

I'll highlight other sections I have added to, or tweaked, as the case may be, when I free up some time.

On protocol, should a proposed edit appear in discussion, before it is added to the main entry?

Thanks.

Biography Subdivisions

--Pinckney2007 00:47, 13 September 2007 (UTC)Pinkney2007 00:45, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I provided some additional sub-divisions, to differentiate the periods of Gertrude's life. One thing that I'm not sure about is how to best explain the transfer of primary relationship from Leo Stein to Alice B. Toklas.

At present, the divisions look like this:

1. 1 Biography

   * 1.1 Early life
   * 1.2 Paris, 1903-1914
   * 1.3 World War I
   * 1.4 1920s
   * 1.5 World War II

However, the 1903-1914 period could be further subdivided to the before Alice and the after Alice years, and there are two sets of those, 1) meeting Alice and the years up to-- 2) Alice moving in with Leo and Gertrude, followed by 3) Leo leaving the premises

Pinckney2007 11:29, 13 September 2007 (UTC)Pinckney2007

1.2 Paris, 1903-1914

I added this material, and I think subdivisions for Ambroise Vollard, Matisse, Picasso, Mabel Dodge Luhan, Guillaume Appollinaire, and Mabel Dodge Luhan might be appropriate here:

From 1903 to 1914--she lived in Paris with her brother Leo, who became an art critic. Gertrude and Leo compiled one of the first collections of modern art. They owned early works of Pablo Picasso (who became a friend and painted her portrait, as well as a portrait of her nephew Allan Stein), Henri Matisse, André Derain, Georges Braque, Juan Gris, and other young painters. Before World War I, their salon at 27 Rue de Fleurus attracted these and other artists and members of the avant garde, including the poet, dramatist, critic, journalist Guillaume Apollinaire (Kellner, 1988, pp 144-45).

The Gertrude and Leo Stein art collection included many paintings they acquired from the Paris art dealer, Ambroise Vollard. Their brother Michael and sister-in-law Sarah (Sally) amassed a large Henri Matisse collection, and Gertrude's friends from Baltimore, Claribel and Etta Cone collected in a similar vein, eventually donating their collection, virtually intact, to the Baltimore Museum of Art

Gertrude and Leo Stein's art collection was reflective of two famous art exhibitions that took place during their residence together at 27 rue de Fleurus, and to which they contributed, either by lending their art, or by patronizing the featured artists. The first, the Paris Autumn Salon of 1905, introduced Fauvism to the Paris art public, to some shock and political cartooning. The second, the Armory Show of 1913, held in New York City, introduced Modern Art to the United States art public, also to some shock and political cartooning.

After Gertrude's and Leo's households separated in 1914, she kept most of the Picasso paintings the two had collected and later acquired examples of Picasso's Cubist art.

The Leo and Gertrude Stein separation occurred in April, 1914, when Leo moved to Settignano, Italy, near Florence. The separation of their art collection was described in a letter by Leo, in which he stated:

The Cezanne apples have a unique importance to me that nothing can replace. The Picasso landscape is not important in any such sense. We are, as it seems to me on the whole, both so well off now that we needn't repine. The Cezannes had to be divided. I am willing to leave you the Picasso ouvre, as you left me the Renoir, and you can have everything except that. I want to keep the few drawings that I have. This leaves no string for me, it is financially equable either way for estimates are only rough & ready methods, & I'm afraid you'll have to look upon the loss of the apples as an act of God. I have been anxious above all things that each should have in reason all that he wanted, and just as I was glad that Renoir was sufficiently indifferent to you so that you were ready to give them up, so I am glad that Pablo is sufficiently indifferent to me that I am willing to let you have all you want of it.

(Mellow, 1974, at 207-08).

Pinckney2007 11:30, 13 September 2007 (UTC)Pinckney2007

Man Ray photographs

Of all the pictures of Gertrude Stein, I think the ones by Man Ray are the most incredibly best. Have any of you Stein editors checked on the copyright access/release we would have to obtain to be able to post some of the Man Ray photos? I know some of them are at the Beinecke library. They would add a lot to the flavor of the page, I think. Pinckney2007 23:13, 13 September 2007 (UTC)Pinckney2007

Here are some examples of the Man Ray photographs it would be nice to include on the page:

http://beinecke.library.yale.edu/dl%5Fcrosscollex/brbldl/oneITEM.asp?pid=2003469&iid=1014884&srchtype=

http://beinecke.library.yale.edu/dl%5Fcrosscollex/photoneg/oneITEM.asp?pid=39002037509826&iid=3750982&srchtype=

http://beinecke.library.yale.edu/dl%5Fcrosscollex/photoneg/oneITEM.asp?pid=39002037509958&iid=3750995&srchtype=

http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jconte/Images/Ray_Stein.jpg

http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jconte/Images/Stein_Toklas.gif (I think this is from Man Ray, but I'm not certain).

There's a great one of Alice (apparently coming in from the kitchen), while Gertrude writes at the big table, but I can't get a good link, except on the cover of Autobiography of Alice B. Toklas: http://beinecke.library.yale.edu/dl%5Fcrosscollex/photoneg/oneITEM.asp?pid=39002037243442&iid=3724344&srchtype=

I've experimented with this material in this format, in my personal page on wiki:

1920s

In the 1920s, her salon at 27 Rue de Fleurus, with walls covered by avant-garde paintings, attracted many of the great writers of the time, including Ernest Hemingway, Ezra Pound, Thornton Wilder, and Sherwood Anderson. While she has been credited with coining the term "Lost Generation" for some of these expatriate American writers, at least three versions of the story that led to the phrase are on record, two by Ernest Hemingway and one by Gertrude Stein (Mellow, 1974, pp. 273-74). During the 20s, she became friends with writer Mina Loy, and the two would remain lifelong friends. Extremely charming, eloquent, and cheerful, she had a large circle of friends and tirelessly promoted herself. Her judgments in literature and art were highly influential. She was Ernest Hemingway's mentor, and upon the birth of his son he asked her to be the godmother of his child. In the summer of 1931, Stein advised the young composer and writer Paul Bowles to go to Tangier, where she and Alice had vacationed.

[add] During this time, Man Ray made several photo images of Gertrude Stein, some with Alice B. Toklas, that get at Gertrude's "bottom nature"

1920, Gertrude at Work on her writing, with the famous Picasso portrait behind her right shoulder

1920 (?) Gertrude in her "throne chair" ... have a hard quote on this point

1926, Jo Davidson at work sculpting Gertrude Stein, in a hunched over Buddha-like pose

Gertrude in front of her Picasso portrait; Picasso said she would eventually grow to resemble her portrait

There's a great one of Alice (apparently coming in from the kitchen), while Gertrude writes at the big table, but I can't get a good link, except on the cover of Autobiography of Alice B. Toklas: Alice B. Toklas entering Gertrude's work room, with Gertrude at work. Uncertain about the date, and uncertain about Man Ray as the photographer. This image is a window on the power politics in the relationship between Gertrude Stein and Alice B. Toklas

Alice B. Toklas in the background, and Gertrude Stein in the foreground; a window on their relationship. After the hair cut. This one might be by Carl Van Vechten.

update with more questions about Fair Use of Man Ray photographs

I've found the wikipedia informational entry about use of historical photographs under a fair use rationale.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Fair_use_rationale_guideline

I've also found the Man Ray Trust page

http://www.manraytrust.com/

I'm studying the problem of using these images. They are not in the mainstream of information about Gertrude Stein, and that absence raises some flags for me. I don't know if linking to the archival images works effectively around the problem or raises another one.

Live links to art from the Gertrude/Leo collection

In the 1904-1914 section, I've tried this approach to showing the art without displaying it on the wiki page. I'd appreciate any observations/suggestions about potential problems with this approach.

Here's what I just added:

1904, Patronage at Vollard's Gallery Begins

The joint collection of Gertrude and Leo Stein began in late 1904, when their brother Michael announced that their trust account had accumulated a balance if 8,000 francs, a windfall. (Mellow, 1974, p.62). They spent this windfall at Vollard's Gallery, buying Gaugin's Sunflowers and Three Tahitians, Cezanne's Bathers and two Renoirs. (Ibid.)

1914, Separation of Leo and Gertrude's Art Collection

Thanks! Pinckney2007

1904-1906, Patronage at Vollard's Gallery Begins, and the Steins Grow a Modern Art Gallery

The joint collection of Gertrude and Leo Stein began in late 1904, when their brother Michael announced that their trust account had accumulated a balance if 8,000 francs, a windfall. (Mellow, 1974, p.62). They spent this windfall at Vollard's Gallery, buying Gaugin's Sunflowers and Three Tahitians, Cezanne's Bathers, and two Renoirs. (Ibid.)

The art collection grew, and ceremonially, the walls were rearranged to make way for new acquisitions. (Gertrude seated near new acquisitions (1905))

By early 1906 the studio of Leo and Gertrude Stein at 27 Rue de Fleurus, Paris was covered with paintings by Manguin, Bonnard, Picasso, Cezanne, Renoir, Daumier, Matisse, and Toulouse-Lautrec. (Museum of Modern Art, 1970, pp. 88-89 (images of paintings at 27, Rue de Fleurus)). Among the paintings was a portrait of Madame Cezanne which provided Gertrude with inspiration as she began her career as a writer, and which she credited with her evolving writing style illustrated in her early work, Three Lives:

Gertrude claimed that the stylistic method of [Three Lives] had been influenced by the Cezanne portrait under which she sat writing. The portrait of Madame Cezanne is one of the monumental examples of the artist's method, each exacting, carefully negotiated plane--from the suave reds of the armchair and the gray blues of the sitter's jacket to the vaguely figured wallpaper of the background--having been structured into existence, seeming to fix the subject for all eternity. So it was with Gertrude's repetitive sentences, each one building up, phrase by phrase, the substance of her characters.

(Mellow, 1974, p. 71).

Box

This article is part of the Gertrude Stein series.

Bibliography

Art Gallery and Salon at 27 Rue de Fleurus

Avantegarde Paris 1903-1914

Lost Generation 1919-1929

1930's and American Lecture Tour

World War II and Death· Topics

[[Category:Gertrude Stein navigational boxes|Biography]]

Okay, so I can't figure out the boxes yet! ~Pinckney2007

What about it? Hyacinth (talk) 03:36, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I can't figure out how to remove: padding: 5px; font-size: 85%; margin: 0 15px 0 15px;"} from what's visible on the screen.

~Pinckney2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pinckney2007 (talk • contribs) 11:39, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Length edit

I've moved much of my chatter out of this page.

I, too believe the article is long, and I've not even added in details from the 20's, 30's, 40's that I had in mind to add.

1. Stein writings - a Gertrude Stein bibliography page?
2. Stein salon - a 27 rue de fleurus page.
3. Avantegarde Paris - for pre-WWI events.
4. Lost Generation - for 1920s

Anyway, there's much more in the 20's and 30's to include, even the 40's.

What's been overwritten only takes us up through the 10's!

In the 90's she was college girl and basic middle class Jewish princess, without the parents.

In the 00's she moved to Paris, continued her bonding with Leo, started writing, and then in 07 with Alice.

In the 10's she came into her own as an art collector, spinning much off brother Leo and then had her WWI adventures.

In the 20's she hung out with the lost generation writers and book folk

In the 30's she was a celebrity and a woman of leisure, summering and entertaining in a swell place in rural France.

In the 40's she was a friend of the GI's.

The woman had at least six lives.

~Pinckney2007

What parts are too long? Are those parts actually overwritten (and thus need summarization) or just inappopriate in length for this article (and thus need serialization)? Note that the Template:verylong points you towards a description of both options. Hyacinth (talk) 03:47, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Looks from below that you chose serialization, which would have been my choice as well. Hyacinth (talk) 03:49, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

It's hard to tell what parts are actually overwritten, because Gertrude was a collector of people as well as ideas. I think the fascinating thing about Gertrude is how she shed people as she went through her life, and connected with the young of each generation. So, in that sense, serialization is probably appropriate, and I guess that insight helps me understand the distinction you're drawing between "overwritten" and "inappropriate in length"

Pinckney2007 (talk) 11:45, 12 January 2008 (UTC)Pinckney2007

Spelling of oeuvre in quote

Hi - an anonymous editor corrected the spelling of oeuvre in the Picasso quote. I reverted, because there was no indication that the editor was citing to the source. But, it would be a good idea to check the source, and maybe include a "[sic]" in the quote. Can someone who has access to "Mellow, 1974, at 207-08", please check the Leo Stein letter for the spelling of oeuvre? --Lquilter (talk) 15:16, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

• Pinckney2007 verified cite & Leo had spelled it correctly, so quote is now corrected. tx! --Lquilter (talk) 23:36, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks!

Adding footnotes and deleting tangential text

I've started to use footnotes and to delete tangential text that I had first edited into the article (e.g., I deleted a segment on Mabel Dodge Luhan, a segment on the Rousseau banquet, repetitious material and so on). I've not saved the tangential text, but I'm wondering what the protocol is on that.

Pinckney2007 (talk) 14:21, 1 February 2008 (UTC)Pinckney2007

As you may have now assumed that was probably fine. If the text is of questionable value you may remove it and place it on the talk page with a note (such as "Removed the above from intro" and possibly an explination). Hyacinth (talk) 00:14, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

About Mabel Dodge footnote edit

I came across a web page summary of Gertrude that used the Mabel Dodge footnote from the Stein wiki entry, and there, I noticed the redundant use of "catalyst"

http://www.archive.org/details/PortraitOfMabelDodgeAtVillaCuronia

Pinckney2007 (talk) 15:53, 13 December 2008 (UTC)Pinckney2007

Pronunciation

How do you pronounce her name? I think a little IPA thing after her name would help a lot. 93.223.61.60 (talk) 17:19, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Only one

"I am only one, only one, only one. Only one being, one at the same time. Not two, not three, only one. Only one life to live, only sixty minutes in one hour. Only one pair of eyes. Only one brain. Only one being. Being only one, having only one pair of eyes, having only one time, having only one life, I cannot read your MS three or four times. Not even one time. Only one look, only one look is enough. Hardly one copy would sell here. Hardly one. Hardly one." --A.J.Fifield's rejection slip to Gertrude Stein (from p.81 of "The Last Word" by Gyles Brandreth) --noosphere 00:13, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

James Hillman and William James

"At Harvard in the 1890's Professor William James had in his classes a rather wonky, stubby talkative Jewish girl from California. She was late for classes, didn't seem to understand what was going on, misspelled, knew no Latin -- that sort of typicall mess, the girl who couldn't get it together, a 'typical neurotic' as we might say today. But William James let her turn in a blank exam paper, and gave her a high mark for the course, helped her through to medical studies at Johns Hopkins. He saw something unique in this pupil. She was Gertrude Stein." -James Hillman "Egalitarian Typologies versus the Perception of the Unique" -- noosphere 20:11, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Paintings on the Wall

Pinckney2007 (talk) 23:56, 8 January 2010 (UTC)Pinckney 2007

I returned the section called the Paintings on the Wall. I can add a discussion later, but I think visual images are as much about Gertrude as any words she wrote and perhaps moreso.

Consider the number of artists who have rendered her image and who they are.

For me, GStein imagery is what got me interested in GStein.

Images do add value, I agree. But as a first visitor to this page, I can only say I see a (bit of a) mess. The number of external (deep) links is excessive. Some are embedded in the body, some are in the "Paintings" section. Information about time, place, origin, creator etc. is mostly missing and if present is not presented consistently. Most images are presented out of context with direct deep links, with the links giving no description. In effect, wiki turns into a web directory here. A solution might be to include a selection of pictures here with decent descriptions, placed in context (where copyright permits) and have a handful of external links to galleries, not images. Superp (talk) 13:38, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Photo request

I'm copying the following photo request that was made on Wikipedia:Requested_pictures/People. Tim Pierce (talk) 01:06, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

I'd like Man Ray photographs of Gertrude Stein and Alice B. Toklas. I've gone through the Man Ray Trust page, and I'm not sure how to go about requesting copyright release, whether it's a lost cause because of fees associated with his images, etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Traveler100 (talk • contribs) 11:42, October 18, 2007

Pronoun

In the section titled "Death", in the sentence "the preface of the exhibition for Riba-Rovira in Paris, written in 1945, is one of Gertrude Stein's last texts on its vision of the painting art, approximately one year before its death," is the possessive pronoun "its" meant to refer to Stein? If so it would be improper in English to refer to a person as "it". The reason I'm throwing this out for discussion is, I don't want to just dive in and change the pronouns to "her" if I am misunderstanding the sentence. - Elmarco 00:31, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

It's wrong. Feel free to dive in. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 01:18, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

could someone please correct this horrendous English?

Hi everyone, I was just reading this article and stumbled accross this passage:

"So what this Gertrude Stein's writinq mean ?And it would be interersting to have a discussion about that and this paintor .Because she has any time the main words for brinking up a new perspective for futur .And with her interest for the School of Paris ,why did she taked a so hard opinion about Cezanne and Picasso .Can you give an answer to art history in your esthetic reaserch .What it is she asks us .

And when in the catalogue ,we show us in this page ,you can see she bought two pictures ,there is in first her portrait by Riba-Rovira .Why ,there is no portrait photography reproduction for this promotion exposition .Where were the artist's choice reasons to prefer other drawing and pictures and we do not know exactly what were their discussions about that .Because you can easily understand that for Gertrude Stein ,even with her so well known reputation ,it was a very higth challenge to speak so shortly but with these so important and main words about also Juan Gris ,Matisse ,Riba-Rovira ."

What the hell?

I think it is best when a native speaker corrects this - or just kicks it out? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.49.240.190 (talk) 21:19, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

I could not save or fix it, so removed it. You're perfectly correct. SBHarris 05:08, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Further Reading or Works Cited?

Recently I was searching for the works referenced in the article, but couldn't find a section containing them. I do, however, think that the section currently entitled "Further Reading" is, in fact, what should actually be "Works Cited" I'm going to make this change. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 170.140.105.1 (talk) 17:28, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

The World is Round

The list of published works omits the "children's book" The World is Round. Does anyone know where to find relevant details, and want to add this? 128.84.234.217 (talk) 16:43, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Hemingway Quote

More positive affirmations of Stein's sexuality began with her relationship with Toklas. Ernest Hemingway describes how Alice was Gertrude's "wife" in that Stein rarely addressed his (Hemingway's) wife, and he treated Alice the same, leaving the two "wives" to chat.(Grahn 1989) Alice was 4'11" tall, and Gertrude was 5'1"[citation needed].

Direct quote from A Movable Feast, remove citation needed — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.43.18.19 (talk) 04:34, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

Q on introductory paragraph

What is a "tertiary relationship"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.212.108.131 (talk) 19:20, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Primary, secondary, tertiary? Hyacinth (talk) 00:10, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

tertiary

1. Third in place, order, degree, or rank.

I used the term because Gertrude was cavalier about maintaining friendships, letting people go after they had outlived their purposes in her life. She wound up having expendable people in her life, and I thought the word "tertiary" explained their float-through.

I'd place Leo and Alice as primary relationships. I'd place Sally and Michael in secondary relationships. Picasso and Juan Gris also would be secondary. But the others floated in and out -- tertiary -- like Mabel Dodge Luhan (who I was just looking up).

Pinckney2007 (talk) 15:53, 13 December 2008 (UTC)Pinckney2007

I think we can reasonably assume the original commentor knows what the word tertiary means, but is questioning whether tertiary relationship is a juxtaposition that will be immediately clear to the reader. I question this as well, and find it telling that in his explanation Pinckney2007 resorts to the peculiar and ungainly construction float-through, which also strikes me as gibberish. (Please don't cut and paste a dictionary definition of float and through.) TheScotch (talk) 07:01, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Attributing Quotes

Hi, brand new to the Wikipedia world (the back-end, at least) so I preemptively apologize for any inadvertent stupidity on my part.

I have a question regarding the quotes on this page that are attributed to G. Stein. Does someone know where the quotations originated? For example, in reference to the death of Isadora Duncan, Stein supposedly quipped: "Affectations can be deadly."

I have searched the net over and have been unable to find the original article or essay from which that quote came. I saw the quote on a few "Quotation Collecting" sites, but they do not indicate where the quote originated either. Should this be a concern? It seems that quotes attributed to an author or famous person should have more stringent citation guidelines, so as to ward off inadvertent misattributions, such as in this well-known example where Nelson Mandela was widely attributed as having said something that was actually written by Marianne Williamson. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Marianne_Williamson

I ask not only because I honestly want to know the original source of the quote, but because it seems like author/famous public figure quotes as this should be more meticulously cited.

Thanks very much for any help or insight. Meticulous J (talk) 01:05, 23 June 2009 (UTC)Meticulous J

Since false quotations are rampant on the Internet, I think you are very right to be concerned about this. There should be a valid citation for every single quotation. (That's if we should have the section at all. I think Wikipedia should be written in real English paragraphs, and any quotation worth repeating is worth providing with context. Arbitrary lists in Wikipedia should be avoided.) TheScotch (talk) 07:16, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Assessment

This article is well-written and well-sourced, but I fear it has too many popular culture references in the final sections that detracts from its coverage of the main topic. While many writers, song-writers, and garage bands have used her writings and philosophy in their own works, I feel that only the most important should be mentioned, and that should take place in a prose discussion on Literary Influence or something of the like. A subject as important as Stein should not be modified by The Devil Wears Prada, as that combines WP:Recentism and WP:Trivia and detracts from the great influence she has had on far more important artists.Mrathel (talk) 18:16, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

I think you're quite right. We can fix this bit by bit. Move something worthy; delete something unworthy. TheScotch (talk) 07:25, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

File:Retrato Gertrude Stein.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion

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Tributes

The tributes section seems to be a renaming of an "In popular culture" section, and it contains too much connective trivia. In other words, it is not necessary to name each time an artist or celebrity mentions a writer on that person's article. Is there any who would object to purging much of the information that does not directly deal with the subject of this article? Mrathel (talk) 14:43, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't object, but I didn't add the tributes and I see the function they serve

I've wondered about the tributes, too, and because I didn't add them, I don't have a personal investment in seeing them go, and I appreciate the thought that you are thinking about doing some spring cleaning, because the article *is* unwieldy.

With that said, I would like to set out an argument for keeping the tributes, just to have a discussion about this point, and not to say NO don't take them away, because I kinda think they are a primary reason the article doesn't get more official wiki praise, and I think there's good stuff in this article and pieces of it get lifted into stuff all over the place on the internet, so it has its own following.

In the time that I've spent editing this article, I have found that it's sort of a proud article, notwithstanding its B/C grades by the reviewers. I think part of its charm is the tribute section ... has a feeling like the memorials that turn up daily at the Vietnam Veterans memorial in D.C. I think we could do a lot of sweeping and conform GStein to a wikipedia vision of perfection and get her cleaned up for the A ratings and perhaps even get "great article" recognition on the wiki newswire.

But I think something would be lost in the process. And I think the something is a reflection of GStein's own personality, in all its unedited and self-absorbed glory. Would GStein have edited to gain a higher grade? I kinda don't think so. But, I may be speaking from the perspective of someone who has completely run out of time to edit myself! It's fun to come back and look at this page and see what sort of silly vandalism has been efficiently cleaned up and also to see the interesting additions.

Pinckney2007 (talk) 14:18, 21 February 2009 (UTC)Pinckney2007

It seems to be common (and unfortunate) in Wikipedia for disingenuous editors to try to disguise trivia sections with the euphemism In popular culture. Here we've been more inventive, but the section is still mostly a random list of trivia. Anything of value should be moved to the article proper and the rest deleted. TheScotch (talk) 06:50, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Pinckney2007: I don't see that there was any reason for you to start a new section (within this section), to give your reply its own title, or to put that title in boldface. Re: "But I think something would be lost in the process. And I think the something is a reflection of GStein's own personality, in all its unedited and self-absorbed glory. Would GStein have edited to gain a higher grade?" You may think that if you like, but it's irrelevant to the argument. Our function here is not to try mimic the style of the subject or to create a "proud" article (whatever that may mean) with "its own following". Our function is to be encyclopedic, clear, logical, and straightforward and to conform to Wikipedia standards. TheScotch (talk) 12:27, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

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Trivia ("Legacy and commemoration")

The Legacy and commemoration section of this article as it now stands is a list of trivia, randomly arranged and contrary to Wikipedia policy (as I understand it). If you think it contains something worth saving, pleasing move that thing to the article proper. If you disagree with anything I've said, please post a logical argument here, in a timely manner. Otherwise, the entire section will eventually be deleted. (Some of the above has already been addressed in the Tributes section of this talk page, q.v., but after considerable time no action has been taken, and this should be easier to find.) Do not delete the trivia banner until concensus is achieved. Thanks. TheScotch (talk) 11:02, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Comment on "importance"

How can Gertrude Stein be only "mid-importance" in the poetry project while Ezra Pound is "high importance"? 207.196.181.200 (talk) 09:01, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

Gertrude Stein was a leftist???

It's very confusing to state that Stein was a lifelong conservative Republican, a vocal critic of the New Deal, and a defender of fascists such as Franco and Petain, and then just a few lines later (right after her shocking comments about Hitler) to claim that she was a leftist. At the very least, that requires more explanation.--71.185.41.90 (talk) 16:45, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

Work on Lead

I've just made some edits on the lead per Text Box request for expansion. I believe it is now more comprehensive. I have to comment, however, that though the entire bio contains much information on Stein, the historical legacy of Stein's artistic "salon" is under represented. If anything, her name lives on, primarily through her "associations" and influence on significant writers and painters of the early 20th century. (Just one mention: Hemingway's, The Moveable Feast). The Stein art collection is also important. The merit of her writing, on the other hand, is still controversial; the jury still is out on that. I feel that too much emphasis is given to her writing output so the information reads like a term paper, an analysis with a thesis topic. The numerous lengthy quotations from her work are superfluous. Betempte (talk) 21:03, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Calling all editors

I know a fair number of editors had worked on the Gertrude Stein article before I plunked down the rush of connections I was learning about, with regard to Gertrude. It was my first article edit at wiki, and I was learning the software and the social dynamics of this outlet.

I write to clarify that I prefer to collaborate than to take on a project solely as my own. That spirit was not entirely in evidence in my rush of excitement about Gertrude-lore.

I hope to work with others on this length edit, and to accept constructive overhauls that might not be immediately apparent to me.

Thanks much, and my apologies for my inexperience and enthusiasm ...

Pinckney2007 (talk) 13:38, 13 January 2008 (UTC)Pinckney2007

I have participated in editing this article a few years ago (with a different nickname) and was extremely frustrated by the attempts to portray Gertrude Stein as a pro-Nazi thinker by using partial quotes, misreading her humor, etc. I wasn't familiar enough with the Wikipedia co-writing process and just gave up at one point. I've just read the article again, and it has improved tremendously, and even if I disagree with some of the descriptions or interpretations, I'm still grateful for a much more accurate portrait of this fascinating woman. So I just wanted to thank you all...

(Esther Goren (talk) 16:51, 28 May 2013 (UTC))

WWII Section

The WWII section needs some work, it jumps around from 1941 to 1934 and back. And I still can not understand why she was not sent to a concentration camp, there were plenty of well-known Jewish individuals whose prominence was disregarded. 69.125.134.86 (talk) 00:39, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

"Paternalistic culture" or "patriarchal"?

In the Johns Hopkins section, is the phrase "paternalistic culture" intentional, or should it be "patriarchal culture"? dz7 (talk) 00:14, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

hijacking Stein's page

Contributor 84.100.168.180 keeps trying to hijack Gertrude Stein's biography to promote Catalan painter Francisco Riba Rovira, with whom Stein had some slight acquaintance. The material has been removed a few times by various editors, but 84.100.168.180 keeps adding it back. Not only is the material irrelevant to Stein's biography, but the language requires improving and editing. Is there a way to prevent the hijacking of the page? (Epinoia (talk) 22:38, 16 February 2014 (UTC))

Not really. We just need to be vigilant, although if it is repeated soon, a request for temporary semiprotection can be made at WP:RFPP. Johnuniq (talk) 22:45, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

I proactively put on pending changes, hopefully that helps us keep an eye on that, Sadads (talk) 00:51, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Preface by Gertrude Stein for first Riba-Rovira's exhibition on 1945 at Galerie Roquepine in Paris

Dear,

This writing was several years on the Gertrude's page.

And without telling why you have forbidden it; I do not understand why? You give no reasons of this way of thinking and doing.

It is a very important writing about Art, one of her last views before dying about one year after, her last words about Cezanne, Picasso, Riba-Rovira, Juan Gris, Matisse.

         Please could you put it again as it was before or where you want on the page, but please do it.

"sicesvous" 18 februrary 2014

                                        &&

The writing I want you to put again, you can do a better presentation is you want but keep the original writing, in Gertrude Stein's page is:

In a preface written for the first exhibition of Spanish painter Francisco Riba Rovira in May 1945—approximately one year before her death, giving us her last vision of art before dying— when in that preface she expressed her opinions about Picasso, Cézanne, Matisse and Juan Gris as well as Riba-Rovira, a familiar artist of her salon at rue Christine.

«By Miss Gertrude Stein.

It is inevitable that when we really need someone we find him. The person you need attracts you like a magnet. I returned to Paris, after these long years spent in the countryside and I needed a young painter, a young painter who would awaken me. Paris was magnificent, but where was the young painter? I looked everywhere: at my contemporaries and their followers. I walked a lot, I looked everywhere, in all the galleries, but the young painter was not there. Yes, I walk a lot, a lot at the edge of the Seine where we fish, where we paint, where we walk dogs (I am of those who walk their dogs). Not a single young painter!

One day, on the corner of a street, in one of these small streets in my district, I saw a man painting. I looked at him; at him and at his painting, as I always look at everybody who creates something I have an indefatigable curiosity to look and I was moved. Yes, a young painter!

We began to speak, because we speak easily, as easily as in country roads, in the small streets of the district. His story was the sad story of the young people of our time. A young Spaniard who studied in fine arts in Barcelona: civil war; exile; a concentration camp; escape. Gestapo, another prison, another escape... Eight lost years! If they were lost, who knows? And now a little misery, but all the same the painting. Why did I find that it was him the young painter, why? I visited his drawings, his painting: we speak.

I explained that for me, all modern painting is based on what Cézanne nearly made, instead of basing itself on what he almost managed to make. When he could not make a thing, he hijacked it and left it. He insisted on showing his incapacity: he spread his lack of success: showing what he could not do, became an obsession for him. People influenced by him were also obsessed by the things which they could not reach and they began the system of camouflage. It was natural to do so, even inevitable: that soon became an art, in peace and in war, and Matisse concealed and insisted at the same time on that Cézanne could not realize, and Picasso concealed, played and tormented all these things.

The only one who wanted to insist on this problem, was Juan Gris. He persisted by deepening the things which Cézanne wanted to do, but it was too hard a task for him: it killed him. And now here we are, I find a young painter who does not follow the tendency to play with what Cézanne could not do, but who attacks any right the things which he tried to make, to create the objects which have to exist, for, and in themselves, and not in relation.

This young painter has his weaknesses and his strengths. His force will push him in this road. I am fascinated and that is why he is the young painter who I needed. He is Francisco Riba-Rovira. »

This writing comes from;

— Gertrude Stein « A la recherche d'un jeune peintre », revue Fontaine no 42, p. 287-288, 1945 — Gertrude Stein « Looking for a young painter » (Riba-Rovira) Yale University U.S.A.

Contribution in Wikipedia for Gertrude Stein's page asked by sicestvous 18 Februrary 2014. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sicestvous (talk • contribs) 15:25, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

The reasons this material was removed are:

• The article is about Gertrude Stein – the removed material promotes artist Riva Rovira and does not contribute to Stein’s biography or to the understanding of the literary work for which she is known.
• Stein met many people and a lengthy account of her meeting with one minor painter is not needed – it devotes disproportionate space to one person over others who had significantly more influence in her life.
• Gertrude Stein was a writer, not an art critic – her views on art are already stated in the article.
• The material was placed in inappropriate sections.
• The language of the material needs improvement and editing. (Epinoia (talk) 17:05, 18 February 2014 (UTC))

"Contributor 84.100.168.180 keeps trying to hijack Gertrude Stein's biography to promote Catalan painter Francisco Riba Rovira, with whom Stein had some slight acquaintance."

How do you may tell that?

Because this artist Francisco Riba-Rovira was along with Picasso, Matisse, Cezanne, in the exhibition called "The Stein's collect" at the MET of New- York on 2012, with the portrait he did of Gertrude Stein, whose first show was in the exhibition Galerie Roquepine on May 1945, for which Gertrude Stein wrote the Preface which was before for several years on Gertrude Stein's page in Wikipedia, you have now forbidden. It was one of the last writing she gives her views on Art. It was the last painting portrait one artist did.

More, this portrait was also in San Francisco on 2011 in the exhibition called "G.Stein: five stories..." and this portrait in this place the same link with the Preface.

More, this portrait was also in Washington in the exhibition "National portrait gallery" on end 2011 beginning 2012.

More, even if it was not in the exhibition of Paris, this portrait was in the french catalog.

The book mars 2013 "letters correspondence Carl Van Vechten/Gertrude Stein" by Edward Burns p.773 tells the portrait. AND SAYS Riba-Rovira did "several" of her.

And you tell "some slight acquaintance", and you have forbidden the mentions of several portraits, and you have forbidden, you or Wikipedia, the Preface of Gertrude Stein.

It is a fact.

sicestvous 18 februrary 2014 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sicestvous (talk • contribs) 18:10, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

• The article is about Gertrude Stein, not about Francisco Riba-Rovira.

• Your comments show that your agenda is to promote the work of Francisco Riba-Rovira, not to contribute to the biography of Gertrude Stein or to the understanding of the literary work for which she is known. Let’s keep the article about Gertrude Stein. Francisco Riba-Rovira has his own entry.

• Francisco Riba-Rovira may be a fine artist, but he remains a minor figure in the history of art and the fact that he painted one or more portraits of Gertrude Stein does not justify the inclusion of the material in Stein’s biography.

• Francisco Riba-Rovira may be important to you, but he was not a prominent figure in Gertrude Stein’s life and his relationship with her is not notable enough to be included in a general Wikipedia article on Gertrude Stein. Stein had a wide circle of friends and acquaintances and there is room only to mention the most notable ones in the Wikipedia article. (I believe this is in accordance with the Wikipedia guidelines on notability and adding personal material.)

• Is there a major biography of Gertrude Stein that mentions Francisco Riba-Rovira? (Epinoia (talk) 20:17, 18 February 2014 (UTC))

You do not dispute censoring this text by Gertrude Stein

You do not dispute censoring this text by Gertrude Stein, Gertrude Stein so itself, and therefore its beneficiary. Text which for several years has featured on this page yet. What matters is what it says in the text, not what you, you think and you have not contacted your analysis of this text to justify your interdction. We are not talking of its links with the painters mentioned, but his gaze on the painting through these painters about a year before died. sicestvous 18 February 2014 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sicestvous (talk • contribs) 22:22, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

• added quote of Stein's views on art and link to Riba Rovira to Art Collection section.
• source needs to be confirmed. (Epinoia (talk) 22:51, 18 February 2014 (UTC))

Still seems like a bit of WP:UNDUE, I left a message at Sicestvous's talk page about policies and getting oriented, Sadads (talk) 22:55, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, quotes should be here to support the text and not be the entirety of what is being said about someone. We need an independent and reliable source to cover the relationship between Stein and Rovira first and then maybe we can add part of that quote (as it stands it is giving the painter undue weight relative to the rest of the article). SQGibbon (talk) 23:14, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

The quote does express her disillusionment with modern art and what she saw as its failure. The quote, “to create the objects which have to exist, for, and in themselves, and not in relation” ties in to the ‘Objects’ section of ‘Tender Buttons’ where she describes objects as “an arrangement in a system to pointing” that are “not unordered in not resembling” – so it does bring together her views on art and writing and expresses her idea of what art, both visual and literary should do: create objects that exist independently and not in relation. This is important to understanding her work. (Epinoia (talk) 23:18, 18 February 2014 (UTC))

A couple sentence discussing the importance of that particular commentary through secondary source, a sentence or two summarizing her argument and a quote in Template:Quote box which highlights important parts of it, would be a better format, Sadads (talk) 00:03, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

yes, Sadads, should we just remove the quote? It does not contribute appreciably to Stein's biography and essentially repeats the more condensed quote already in the article, "painting now after its great period has come back to be a minor art." My comments on creating unrelated objects would fall under 'original research'! (Epinoia (talk) 00:50, 19 February 2014 (UTC))

an historical document about her views on Artpainting ...

Dear,

what I wrote and I have given to read, is not representative about all the life of Gertrude Stein but an historical document about her views on Artpainting at the end of the life.

It is a discussion and I see Wikipedia does not want keep on staying with this document of few lines as it was before.

So it is an historic act. And they have to assume that now for the futur, as an example of freedom on Wikipedia.

Because, may be, they do not want:

-that people know her last views about this subject. There are lobbies, there are principles to forbid what it is not of the official line. So somebody do not want that it may be known that she helped a spanish antinazi and antifascist painter Riba-Rovira, the last one who did several portraits of her, with the polemic with her very bad way of doing while Vichy government, and I do not agree the comportment she had to support Franco, Petain, Hitler, it is horrible;

-that people know her last reflexions, her last thought about Picasso, Riba-Rovira, Cezanne, Matisse, Juan Gris, in the last text she wrote about them, a lobby does not want that, because it is against their interests, it is very simple and clear, it is only Wikipedia.

-that a very unknown artist Riba-Rovira with only his Art with the help of Latham, Rebecca Rabinow, Wanda Corn, Edward Burns and so on, was in the same place in the MET of New-York, with the so world famous known as Cezanne, Picasso, Matisse, Picabia, Renoir, etc. This fact hurt them, that Riba-Rovira was among them, the only one in ths exhibition who fought Nazi and Fascist, with weapons in his hands, it hurts their interests. It is why it is also a politic repression, a politic repression just while now the Kiev night...It is a sign, because she also indirectly speaks politic in his historic document...

Excuse me I do not write very well English.

If any body can help me to do better for free expression for this document-Preface of opinion and reflexion of Gertrude Stein, it is also her freedom you protect and not only my freedom on this webside; she had about Art perhaps as a revelation before dying, thank you very much indeed.

Perhaps anybody has a better idea to put on the page that text where it can bring the best interest.

And with all of that, do not forget the pleasure, only the pleasure, to see the portrait Riba-Rovira did.

Thank you to put it again as it was last years for instance till now, till last week.

Sicestvous 19 februrary 2014 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sicestvous (talk • contribs) 10:37, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

Dear Sicestvous

• A quote from Stein’s preface to the exhibition of Riba-Rovira giving her views on Cézanne, Matisse, Juan Gris and Riba-Rovira has been added to the Gertrude Stein article at the end of the Art Collection section. There is also a link to the Francisco Riba Rovira article. The relevance of this quote is still under discussion (see comments above).

• There is no lobby or conspiracy to suppress Stein’s connection to Riba-Rovera (at least on Wikipedia) – it is a question of relevance and balance. To quote the whole of the preface for the exhibition of Riba-Rovira gives undue weight to a minor artist whom she knew towards the end of her life – there are other more prominent and influential people who deserve mention before Riba-Rovira. Stein championed many minor artists, such as Othon Coubine, who are not mentioned in Stein’s Wikipedia article because they did not have a significant impact on her life. I haven’t read every biography of Gertrude Stein, but I do not know of one that gives any importance to Riba-Rovera. This is not an attempt to limit freedom of speech, merely to keep the focus of the article on Gertrude Stein and the significant events of her life.

• Gertrude Stein was a writer and an art collector. She was not an art critic. Her views on art are not an important aspect of her biography. As noted in the article, it was her brother Leo who had the real eye for art. Gertrude Stein’s own taste was often questionable and her comments on art are not always astute.

• Riba-Rovira’s portrait of Gertrude Stein was exhibited at the MET in New York as part of the Stein art collection. The fact that his portrait of Gertrude Stein was hung alongside works by Cézanne, Picasso, Matisse, et.al., does not make him equally important as an artist.

• The political views of Gertrude Stein’s other friends and acquaintances, whether pro or anti-Nazi, are not given in the Wikipedia article so there is no justification for including the political views of Riba-Rovira. Anyone wishing to know Riba-Rovira’s anti-fascist activities can read his article.

• The sources for the translation of the preface to the exhibition of Riba-Rovira need to be confirmed.

• (Epinoia (talk) 18:50, 19 February 2014 (UTC))

Gustav Hendrikksen

There is a problematic reference to a person named Gustav Hendrikksen in this article, in the section Stein_during_World_War_II. It was introduced with this edit in october 2012, discussed within the text in this edit in december 2012 and further discussed within the text in this edit by Baudelaire2001 (talk · contribs), also in december 2012.

The source for this section, where the main claim is that Stein in 1938 suggested Hitler as a receipient of the Nobel Peace Prize, is an article by some Mark Weber named "Gertrude Stein's Complex Worldview. Nobel Peace Prize for Hitler?", and published in The Journal of Historical Review, in Sept-Oct. 1997. Weber says that Hendrikksen ("a former member of the Nobel committee and now professor emeritus of Bible studies at Sweden's Uppsala University") wrote this in an jewish newspaper in 1946. This is obviously a falsification, and I therefore suggest that this whole section about Hitler and Hendrikksen is removed from the article.

Hendrikksens existence is either a hoax, or if Hendrikksen exists, he does not have the merits and insight claimed. Arguments:

• There is no evidence of any such member of the Norwegian Nobel Committee.
• The committee har regularely published data about historical nominations, and these data are easy accessible, as here. Not coherent with Webers claim.
• Webers claim shows furthermore little insight in the whereabouts of the norwegian nobel price committee: no swedes have ever been a member of the committee. That is obviously comprehensive for anyone knowing the swedish-norwegian relations in the early 1900's. Neither has any young bible scholar in their thirties without political experience been a member of the committee. The members i 1938 were aged 55-74: a professor in law, a former foreign minister, a former secretary of finance etc.
• If by chance, Weber should have intended to refer to Hendrikksen as a member of any swedish nobel committee - who by chance gained insight in the norwegian committee's work, this is equally unlikely. Most of the Nobel Committees consist of professionals, and as for the Swedish Academy, who awards the prize in literature, all members there are also well known authors. Furthermore, academy membership are lifetime, so there is no such thing as "a former member".

Bw Orland (talk) 09:31, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

Political Views Section -- Does this need to be balanced out with more of her controversial statements?

I'm a teahouse host and a new editor raised a question about Gertrude Stein that I think is worth raising here. The current section on her political views talks about how she was "democratic" and "pro-immigration" However if you look at this link: http://www.nytimes.com/books/98/05/03/specials/stein-views.html?_r=1/ You can find quotes from Ms. Stein such as this:

"That is the reason why I do not approve of the stringent immigration laws in America today. We need the stimulation of new blood. It is best to favor healthy competition. There is no reason why we should not select our immigrants with greater care, nor why we should not bar certain peoples and preserve the color line for instance. But if we shut down on immigration completely..."

Now the rest of the quote talks about how we shouldn't shut down immigration. My reading of this is that it's kind of a stretch to say she was "pro immigration" when she says "There is no reason why we should not select our immigrants with greater care, nor why we should not bar certain peoples and preserve the color line". Also, in regard to her being pro democratic in that same article there is this quote: "Hitler should have received the Nobel Peace Prize." It seems to me that the current article could use some balance to reflect quotes like this. --MadScientistX11 (talk) 03:08, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

I took a first cut at an edit. I want to give others a chance to comment before I make any changes. The draft is in my sanbox: User:MadScientistX11/sandbox. I'm not sure if I've included too much of the quote or if it's important enough to merit a blockquote. I thought it gave a clearer picture of what she said if I included more of the quote, to make it clear that according to the values of that time, it would still be considered a mostly pro-immigration statement where as if I cut it shorter the racism (which was endemic to the period and not unique to Ms. Stein) seems more blatant. --MadScientistX11 (talk) 14:15, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

• My take on this is that Stein's political comments were controversial, contradictory and confusing, often deliberately so. I don't believe she had any clearly thought out, logical or coherent political or social views, she made them up as she went along, said whatever came to mind. She saw things from a creative viewpoint and was creative with politics, twisting and reinventing it the same way she twisted and reinvented language. I don't believe she ever took politics seriously and so made outrageous, absurd statements as a creative demonstration of the absurdity of politics. I don't think it ever crossed her mind that anyone would take her comments seriously. (This is a conclusion from my own reading - sorry that I can't point to a source to back it up.)

Epinoia (talk) 15:05, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

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Paul Bowles mention

THis sentence is in the article, but it seems not really relevant and out of place: "During the summer of 1931, Stein advised the young composer and writer Paul Bowles to go to Tangier, where she and Alice had vacationed." Delete the sentence? OK? RLS (talk) 18:29, 27 February 2016 (UTC)

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Literary style

Under the section "Literary style", it's stated:

These stream-of-consciousness experiments, rhythmical essays or "portraits", were designed to evoke "the excitingness of pure being" and can be seen as literature's answer to visual art styles and forms such as Cubism, plasticity, and collage.

According to "Biography: The Lost Generation", it was more than just an observation by a third party, but rather Stein's intent to reproduce cubism in the written word. She spent time with Picasso, and he influenced her. If the documentary is correct (and documentation can substantiate that claim), then the sentence should change to reflect that.

Gggrrrvvvrrr (talk) 05:40, 22 September 2016 (UTC) gggrrrvvvrrr

"One of the earliest coming out stories"

This phrase currently appears twice in the article (in reference to QED). We need to clarify this claim to avoid it sounding vague (and, perhaps consequently, potentially over-reaching). Do we mean one of Stein's earliest coming out stories? Do we mean one of the earliest ever in history? In any language? It's a big claim but just at the moment very vague so quite important to clarify. Thanks. --TyrS 03:59, 18 October 2016 (UTC)

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The Adjective, "Jewish"

In the sentence, " Weininger, though Jewish by birth, considered Jewish men effeminate and women as incapable of selfhood and genius, except for female homosexuals who may approximate masculinity," it is not clear if the adjective "Jewish" is meant to modify just the word "men" or also the word "women". If it applies only to the word "men" then something like the phrase "in general" should be added after the word "women". If, on the other hand, only Jewish women are being referred to, then the word "Jewish" should be repeated before the word "women". Also, should "female homosexuals" be replaced with "lesbians"? 2602:306:8BC7:1DD0:406D:9756:EBA3:7B6 (talk) 22:51, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

Medical School

I was just reading The Woods Hole Cantata by Gerald Weissmann and in the final chapter "Against Aequanimitas", he writes:

This passage, and Osler's devotion to "unceasing selection and rejection" come to mind when we are faced with the minutes for June 5, 1901, of the Medical Faculty Advisory Board of Johns Hopkins:

The Dean presented the marks of the Graduating Class and on the motion of Dr. Osler it was voted that Miss Gertrude Stein be not recommended for the degree of Doctor of Medicine.

Note however that this article says she failed an important course and lost interest and left...

I'm not an expert in this area, nor do I know much about editing articles, so putting this here in case anyone is interested.

FuatBaran (talk) 06:18, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

Isn't it highly unlikely that she failed any 4th year course in medical school inasmuch as, by that time, most of the "courses" would be more clinical in nature? Now, if she just lost interest, that happens to many people in the final year of med school or law school. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.152.216.213 (talk) 16:39, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

Racism: Original research/primary source

In the Political Views section, there is the unsourced line "her statements on immigration include sentiments that would be considered racist today. In a 1934 interview...". Which goes on to quote the (sourced) passage. This line seems inappropriate without a reliable source. What do others think? — Ruyter (talk • edits) 07:35, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

Agree. The full quote reads almost opposite of that unsourced assertion. Gleeanon409 (talk) 08:16, 30 March 2020 (UTC)