Talk:Geoffroi de Charny

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This page is a mess. Anybody know what the Order of the Star stuff is about? Lordjim13 00:13, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Order of the Star : French fleeting chivalric order created by John II of France, November 6th, 1351. See fr:Ordre de l'Étoile if you understand French. No link with the article Order of the Star. --BeatrixBelibaste 06:33, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Merci! That clears things up and I will link to the French page. If somebody wants to create an English page on the medieval Order of the Star, that's cool, too. Lordjim13 23:44, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Translated, plus some. See also the Dutch Wiki. Srnec (talk) 05:42, 13 July 2008 (UTC);

Cleaned up the Article, added substantial information

Have removed some uncited material, mainly about the unproven (and possibly unprovable) relationship to Knight Templar. Have cited some other material. Also, I have added description of his affiliations with Scotland and his death by Froissart which is corroborated by English accounts.

This man is a difficult subject to write about. Much of the materials about him have not yet been translated in Modern French or English. His and/or his wife's affiliation with the Shroud of Turin produces much material which may or may not be true. One has to be very careful to meet Wiki standards.

This great Knight deserves careful research. Perhaps one of the French or Dutch critics would like to contribute rather than just criticising? Forgot to sign. signing now Mugginsx (talk) 17:01, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Brass Image

(copied in its entirety from editor Effbr's page as of this date) Mugginsx (talk) 14:43, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

The brass depicts Charny's son (d. 1398), not the man himself.Effbr (talk) 18:05, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

My reference clearly states that the effigy is of the knight Geoffroi de Charny not his son. It further states that the subject of the effigy is the first known owner of the Shroud of Turin. That, too, can only be the father. I have found no writings which even mention his son in either of these contexts, though, if you have any reference which disputes my claim I am most willing to change it. Mugginsx (talk) 20:28, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

The brass is noted to be Geoffroi de Charny (d. 1398) in Jean Adhemar's piece on François Gaignières' collection of drawings of monumental tombs in Gazette des beaux-arts, vol 84. Additionally, Kaeuper's writing on de Charny mentions his son and death year of 1398. Considering they bear the same heraldry and the death dates match, I assume it is the son. Hope this helps. I'm curious what your reference is. Effbr (talk) 20:29, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

One of my sources is: http://www.shroudofturin4journalists.com/geoffrey.htm . Another is this: http://www.nipissingu.ca/department/history/MUHLBERGER/2006/05/geoffroi-de-charny-speaks_10.htm . I have others but am about to go away for the day. Will provide the others tomorrow or Monday. I would like it to be correct. We can work together. Mugginsx (talk) 12:44, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

This particular brass (since lost) was at Froidmont Abbey. It was drawn by an unknown artist for Gaignières' collection of medieval tomb drawings, probably near the close of the 17th century. This image has since been reproduced from the original document and is the one we are discussing today. Both the inventory of his collection (Inventaire des dessins exécutés pour Roger de Gaignières et conservés aux départements des estampes et des manuscrits - which may be found on Archive.org) and the later work of Adhemar (mentioned above) record the year of death as 1398. I'm not an expert on tomb inscriptions, but if you read the one present on the brass, on the left border you can see the year. The last portion being "VIII", or 8. If it was Charny the elder, I would expect to see "VI". Lastly, the armour style depicted is that of the late 14th century, not the middle. One can not reliably date brasses by the costume displayed for many reasons, but it is worth mentioning.

Here is an additional source the supports my view: http://www.shroud.com/bstsmain.htm -> http://www.shroud.com/pdfs/n66part5.pdf (newsletter article that has a picture of the tomb in question and the heading "Geoffroi II de Charny")

And another: http://www.amazon.com/Turin-Shroud-Unshrouding-Mystery/dp/1854795015 -> excerpt found here: http://members.iinet.net.au/~sejones/quotes/TSoT/stuc0904.html (third entry from the top).

Regarding your links: The second has no mention of the tomb. I don't dispute anything written there. I think the first link is simply incorrect. It cites no source for the claim, and uses an image labeled in multiple other sources as being Geoffroi II de Charny.

I too would like to definitively know the tomb's attribution. Effbr (talk) 14:28, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Let's try to contact Richard W. Kaeuper. If there is no reply. an alternate solution might be a heading that states it is either Geoffroi I or Geoffroi II, although it not preferable. I would rather find out which one and note it according. It is to me an enjoyable exercise whomever it turns out to be. What troubles me is that I can find no history of knighthood for Geoffroi II thus far and I believe the effigy is of a Knight. The second reference I gave you was only to show that Geoffroi I and his wife are one of the first recorded owners of the Shroud - not Geoffroi II. Further, as to that time period much is not translated into English or even modern French. The Dr.'s should have the most accurate answer, if one can be found. Websites are not really the best references anyway as I am sure you will agree. Have a nice evening. Mugginsx (talk) 22:41, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

1. I agree that Geoffroi I was the first owner of the shroud, but that has no bearing on whom the tomb is for.

2. Many member of nobility, regardless of their status as a knight have martial effigies (for example, esquires).

3. I agree that websites are not the best references. This is why I have given a selection of books that support my argument.

4. The only source that identifies the tomb as that of Geoffroi I is the first website you mentioned. As I have previously stated, I believe this to be an error, based upon the other (more reliable, I think) sources I have provided. That website's image caption is factually correct taken by itself, but applied to that image, I believe is incorrect. I have yet to see any evidence that further supports this view.

Effbr (talk) 23:26, 18 September 2010 (UTC) I Have sent an e-mail to Dr. Kaeuper and given him this link for full information.Mugginsx (talk) 12:31, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

I have just telephone Dr. Kaeuper at the History Department at U of Rochester. The e-mail produced no response. A call to the general operator gave me his voice mail. Mugginsx (talk) 15:13, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

I have not yet had a response. Perhaps it will come in the future. Is there an internet link to Jean Adhemar's piece on François Gaignières' collection of drawings of monumental tombs in Gazette des beaux-arts, vol 84? It really seems to me to be a mistake but it clearly seems that we are at an impasse without another source either for the father or the son. I have found nothing to state the son was a knight and I cannot agree with you that effigys are so indiscriminate as to what the person's military status was. I have not found that to be true thus far. I have no problem with you being correct that it is the son, I just do not think there is sufficient evidence and I would like to see or hear a third source either way. If that is not agreeable to you then please state what you would like to do. Have a nice day.Mugginsx (talk) 13:56, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

I have cited 4 sources that confirm my assertion. If this is not sufficient evidence, I'm not sure what is. I will list them here: 1. [Print] Jean Adhemar's piece on François Gaignières' collection of drawings of monumental tombs in Gazette des beaux-arts, vol 84. 2. [Print] Inventaire des dessins exécutés pour Roger de Gaignières (online: http://www.archive.org/details/inventairedesdes02pariuoft) 3. [Print] Wilson, Ian. The Turin Shroud: Unshrouding the Mystery. 2000. (excerpt viewable here: http://members.iinet.net.au/~sejones/quotes/TSoT/stuc0904.html, third entry down) 4. [Web] http://www.shroud.com/pdfs/n66part5.pdf (from http://www.shroud.com/bstsmain.htm) Of these 4 sources, three are credible, published, print sources and one is a website. The support for your view is, as far as I can tell, based on a single website. The conclusion here seems pretty clear to me. Either all four of my sources have mistakenly identified the effigy, or your source has. I suggest we attempt to involve another editor to gain a third opinion, if you feel that the evidence presented is insufficient. Let me address some other points. I will try to find a citation for my assertion that non-knights had martial effigies. Failing that, I can at least provide examples. I have a scan of the page from Gazette des beaux-arts. I can transfer this to you by whichever method you prefer. Finally, as supporting evidence, please consider my other two notes, a) the date of death inscribed on the brass, b) style of armour depicted. I think the first is pretty strong evidence, the second is of course more tenuous (see my previous comments for rationale). Effbr (talk) 15:19, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

I can not find anything other than the website to the contrary and I will not object to the change. I would love to see the Gazette des beau-arts, to keep for my own records. It would be great to have it if you would be so kind. I will enable my e-mail. Thanks. Mugginsx (talk) 18:52, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

I have made change. Is there anything else you wish to add? Thanks for the image. Have a nice day. Mugginsx (talk) 13:20, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

1. Is the image appropriate to keep in the article at all? I'm not sure it has much bearing on the subject. I believe non-notable relatives of people on Wikipedia are generally not mentioned or only in passing, but I will admit ignorance of the specific guidelines.

2. I promised a citation for my claim that non-knights had martial effigies. You will find discussion of this topic in English Church Monuments by Nigel Saul, pages 232-235. In summary - by the mid 14th century merchants, members of municipal authorities, etc had martial monuments. Saul states, "In the thirteenth century representation in armour had been associated with knighthood, an occupation; a couple of centuries later it was to be associated more with lordship, an institution." Effbr (talk) 00:08, 25 September 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Effbr (talk • contribs)

As to 1. I put a simple sentence stating there are no images presently available for Geoffroi I, but here is one of his son, for historical reference. As to 2. Yes, it does seem that what you said is that later images were more symbolic that historically accurate.Mugginsx (talk) 16:36, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Geoffroi 2 and the brass effigy

Translation of the brass and other information Do you, by any chance, have a translation of the brass of Geoffroi II? Mugginsx (talk) 11:56, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Translation provided to me via e-mail by Ian Wilson (author).Mugginsx (talk) 14:12, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

I have looked at your source http://www.shroud.com/pdfs/n66part5.pdf (albeit an internet source; but one that seems to be attributed to Ian Wilson. This, of course further verifies what you said, i.e., this is Geoffroi II. It also adds 3 other interesting pieces of information, 1. that Geoffroi II was also a Knight, 2. The brass was thought to be an authentic likeness of the de Charnys, and 3. Geoffroi "caused great scandal when holding up the Shroud....". I am also enjoying your website immensely. Thankyou for giving me the reference. Have a nice day. Mugginsx (talk) 14:09, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Whenever I look for this guy, all I find is The Shroud of Turin, and stuff about his book. Is there a biography about him out there? I want to know more about him. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.122.60.146 (talk) 22:59, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Not that I am aware of but three of de Charny's known books were translated and two are repeated in bottom reading section of the article. They are:

Richard W. Kaeuper & Elspeth Kennedy, A Knight's Own Book: Chivalry of Geoffroi de Charny, Pennsylvania U.P.

Richard W. Kaeuper & Elspeth Kennedy, The Book of Chivalry of Geoffroi de Charny: Text, Context, and Translation (Philadelphia: Pennsylvania U.P., 1996) (Middle Ages Series).Mugginsx (talk) 14:30, 6 September 2014 (UTC)