Talk:Family tree of Confucius in the main line of descent

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citations[edit]

TheLeopard added Template:Unreferenced and Template:Refimprove to this page. I replaced them with Template:No footnotes. Reliable references HAVE BEEN provided. The historical books such as the Twenty-Four Histories do not have a single authoritative edition and do not need to provide specific page numbers. Specific chapters are enough. What are needed are not "additional citations", but "inline citations". --Pengyanan (talk) 01:56, 2 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Please tell me how can I add inline citations?This is a Family tree,I made it with Template:Familytree,the Template is code. ——星光下的人 (talk) 09:30, 3 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I personally also do not think that inline citations are necessary. The references are enough. It's difficult to add inline footnotes to the family tree. --Pengyanan (talk) 09:51, 3 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Generation numbers?[edit]

A bell with the name of the 62-generation descendant of Confucius

I've been to Qufu, and a lot of inscriptions there - on tombstones, stelae, bells, etc - mention one or another descendent's generation number. It seems that the generation number is often an easier way to identify a person than the personal name. Is there a chance that whoever created this article may also add the "official" generation number to each person's listed? I think this will increase its usability. -- 02:37, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

The above request was written by user:Vmenkov, and there's a little discussion about that topic at user talk:Vmenkov#What do you mean?, which outlines its difficulties. — Sebastian 11:52, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I have added generation number boxes to the Family tree. Cosmicdense (talk) 06:23, 15 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

is it possible to add HH Kung to the list?[edit]

H. H. Kung was pretty well known, he was the Premier of the Republic of China, and its obvious hes a 75th generation descendant, his generation name is Xiang祥 like in Kong Xiangxi, just like the other guy Kong Xiangke who is already on this tree. If someone can find his family tree he should be added as well.

Sources for proof that HH Kung was a 75th generation descendant of Confucius.

"CHINA: Potent Mrs. Chiang". TIME. Nov 26, 1928. Retrieved May 22, 2011.

"Foreign News: Warlike Confucian". TIME. Jan 17, 1938. Retrieved May 22, 2011.

"Generalissimo and Madame Chiang Kai-Shek". TIME. Jan 3, 1938. Retrieved May 22, 2011.

I know the family tree of H. H. Kung.But sorry,this is main line of descent.H. H. Kung is a very distance cadet branch of House of Confucius.-星光下的人 (talk) 03:29, 9 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hello:

perhaps this genealogy could be included on H. H. Kung's page? Norenxaq (talk) 07:54, 16 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Descent from the Yellow Emperor[edit]

The wiki page suggests Confucius' line starts with Xie, whom I imagine is this guy zh:契, is there a reason the line isn't traced to the Yellow Emperor? Hanfresco (talk) 13:08, 6 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Xie's line can be traced to the Yellow Emperor.
黃帝 -> 玄囂 -> 蟜極 -> 嚳 -> 契 -> 昭明 -> quite a lot generations (still traceable!) -> 大乙 / 商湯 -> Shang emperors -> 羨 (帝乙) -> 微仲衍 -> few generations (still traceable!) -> 叔梁紇 -> Confucious Someone who likes maps (talk) 10:01, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

How verifiable is this descent?[edit]

I made this query under Talk:Descent from antiquity but this is a more appropriate place:

The paragraph on a possible DFA from Confucius [in Descent from antiquity] includes the following sentence: "The claim is quite true, the family tree can be proved every generation, and it is likely that some of the descent involves links by adoption." The claim that this descent "can be proved for every generation" implies that there is contemporary documentation, or records that reliably transcribe such documentation, going all the way back to Confucius.
As I understand it the family has been honoured continuously since the beginning of the Han dynasty, so I do not find it hard to believe that there are accurate records since those times. Given the prominence of the family, and the award of noble titles to the heads of the family, I can also believe that the descent is well-supported in the dynastic histories, even in troubled times. This alone would be enough to give the family the oldest documented descent in the world. But has anyone gone to the trouble of verifying that such support exists?
I do wonder about the earliest generations, from Confucius to the start of the Han dynasty: what is the documentation for generations who lived before the burning of the books by the First Emperor? The Burton Watson translation of the Records of the Grand Historian, II:356 n. 8, mentions a certain Kong Jia as "the 8th-generation descendant of Confucius". But how did Sima Qian know that? Do we actually have any records that predate him? --Chris Bennett (talk) 22:43, 22 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Although not exactly answering your question, I would like to mention one accessible and informative book, in English, that discusses the Kongs' record-keeping through the centuries (and certain related conflicts) : Jun Jing (1998). The Temple of Memories: History, Power, and Morality in a Chinese Village. Stanford University Press. ISBN 0804727570.. I don't think it talks much about the earliest generations of the Kong clan, though, and their reality vs. "legendarity". However, I would not be that surprised that the sequence of names preserved in the "official" Kong family's genealogies is more or less correct. After all, I seem to recall that even the traditionally-transmitted names of the Shang Dynasty kings, from a much earlier era, matched more or less with the archaeololgical evidence, when the jiaguwen divination inscriptions were unearthed.-- Vmenkov (talk) 05:00, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the reference. I also don't really doubt that the line is correct a long way back, and may well be good as far back as Confucius, maybe even further -- though not as far as the Yellow Emperor. My question is how good is the corroboration. Tombstones, such as those mentioned above at Qufu, or at the village at Dachuan mentioned in the book, before their destruction, would surely confirm many of the more recent generations, for example since Song or Tang dynasty times. There do seem to be some gaps in the record, e.g. the 3-generation jump from Kong Sui to King Ji in the table given in the article here. --Chris Bennett (talk) 18:41, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
“But how did Sima Qian know that? ”I can tell you the answer .Someone who is a descendant of Confucius told Sima Qian.《汉书·卷八十八·儒林传第五十八》：安国为谏大夫，授都尉朝，而司马迁亦从安国问故。 Sima Qian is a student of Kong Anguo（孔安国）,who is son of Kong Zhong(孔忠). --182.101.40.55 (talk) 15:34, 31 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Ancestors of Confucius[edit]

Can we please remove the family tree above Confucius? Aside from his father, his ancestral tree is unknown, and the ancestral tree as given is a mixture of tradition, speculation and legend. At any rate, even if true, Confucius does not represent the "main line" of descent from the Shang kings and the dukes of Song. Even more importantly, this article is entitled "Family tree of Confucius in the main line of descent", and therefore his invented ancestry is out of scope of the article. BabelStone (talk) 18:05, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

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missing connection line?[edit]

I'm not seeing a link from Kong Zhaohuan to Kong Xianpei and/or Kong Xianzeng. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JimBurd (talk • contribs) 03:50, 3 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Removed tree[edit]

Adding the legendary descent on the talk page for future reference. It removed awhile back. There is still a fair amount of the family tree that is actually historic. KAVEBEAR (talk) 05:19, 12 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Family tree

– – – – – The dashed lines denotes the adoptions

黃帝
Yellow Emperor
少皞
Shaohao
蟜極
Qiaoji
嚳
Ku
契
Xie
昭明
Zhao Ming
相土
Xiang Tu
昌若
Chang Ruo
曹圉
Cao Yu
冥
Ming		季
Ji
王亥
Wang Hai		王恒
Wang Heng
上甲微
Shang
Jia Wei
报乙
Bao Yi
报丙
Bao Bing
报丁
Bao Ding
主壬
Zhu Ren
主癸
Zhu Kui
汤
Tang
大丁
Da Ding		外丙
Wai Bing 		仲壬
Zhong Ren
太甲
Tai Jia
羌丁
Qiang Ding		大庚
Da Geng
小甲
Xiao Jia		雍己
Yong Ji		大戊
Da Wu
中丁
Zhong Ding		外壬
Wai Ren		河亶甲
He Dan Jia
祖乙
Zu Yi
祖辛
Zu Xin		羌甲
Qiang Jia
祖丁
Zu Ding		南庚
Nan Geng
陽甲
Yang Jia		盤庚
Pan Geng		小辛
Xiao Xin		小乙
Xiao Yi
武丁
Wu Ding
孝己
Xiao Ji		祖庚
Zu Geng		祖甲
Zu Jia
廩辛
Lin Xin		康丁
Kang Ding
武乙
Wu Yi
文丁
Wen Ding
帝乙
Di Yi
微子启
Wei Zi		微仲衍
Wei Zhong
Yan		帝辛
Di Xin
宋公稽
Duke
Song Ji
宋丁公
Duke Ding
of Song
宋湣公
Duke Min
of Song		宋炀公
Duke Yang
of Song
弗父何
Fu fuhe		宋厉公
Duke Li
of Song
宋父周
Song
Fu Zhou
世子胜
Shi Zi Sheng
正考父
Zheng Kao Fu
孔父嘉
Kong Fu Jia
木金父
Mu Jin Fu
祁父
Qi Fu
防叔
Fang Shu
伯夏
Bo Xia
叔梁纥
Shuliang He
孟皮
Meng Pi		孔子
Confucius
551BC–479BC

Main line undefined[edit]

What is the criteria used to establish a main line, and why is the tree wide in some eras, then rather thin in other eras (mostly single succession)? Did the criteria change along the way? — MaxEnt 23:35, 20 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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